Abortion Vs Women's Rights? WTF? - VeggieBoards
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#1 Old 03-01-2005, 11:56 AM
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Sometimes I read the headlines and I could swear I am dreaming. Then, alarmingly, I realise these ARE the headlines! Shock! Dismay!



So check this out from The Guardian:



Quote:
The Bush administration was accused yesterday of trying to roll back efforts to improve the status of the world's women by demanding that the UN publicly renounce abortion rights.



America's demand overshadowed the opening yesterday of a conference intended to mark the 10th anniversary of the Beijing conference on the status of women, an event seen as a landmark in efforts to promote global cooperation on women's equality.



The US stand was also widely seen as further evidence of the sweeping policy change in Washington under the Bush presidency. The last four years have seen a steady erosion of government support for international population projects, due to the administration's opposition to abortion.



The UN's commission on the status of women had drafted a brief declaration reaffirming support for the Beijing declaration, and calling for further effort to implement its recommendations.



Organisers had hoped that informal discussions last week would reach a consensus on the draft, leaving the next fortnight clear for government officials and women's activists to hold more substantive talks on advancing economic equality and political participation, and fighting violence against women.



But those hopes were crushed in a closed-door session late last week when Washington demanded the declaration reaffirm its support for the declarations made in Beijing 10 years ago only if "they do not include the right to abortion", says a copy of the US text obtained by the Guardian.



Full article. http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/...427583,00.html



I am stunned. To propel this essentially religious agenda forward at the expense of human rights is itself an atrocity. What is wrong with these people?



Please read the whole thing and comment if you would. I am just amazed. Do you think this is a reasonable course for the Bushies to take?



d
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#2 Old 03-01-2005, 12:06 PM
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Not reasonable in the sense that the last thing we need in this world is more people. Has anyone seen the movie "Soilent Green?" Making abortions available to people who want them prevents (or I should say postpones) stuff like that from happening.

(For those of you who don't know the movie, Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
basically they are turning people into this stuff called Soilent Green, which they feed to everyone else. )
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#3 Old 03-01-2005, 12:06 PM
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I've been hearing about this 'plan' for awhile. It no longer shocks me, but I find it quite petrifying. I'm not sure how to respond without my head exploding. Bush is obviously a psychopath who cares about nothing more than forcing his warped moral standards upon the rest of the world. Its even more frustrating that the majority of people in this country have proven themselves incapable of seeing what the rest of the world finds so obvious. Common sense, compassion, and foresight are all wonderful things. I just hope that the majority of GWs decisions can be 'healed' once he's gone.
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#4 Old 03-01-2005, 12:07 PM
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Originally Posted by AccidentalVeg View Post


What is wrong with these people?







What is RIGHT with these people?
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#5 Old 03-01-2005, 12:10 PM
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Well Bush has made his position on abortion (that it is always wrong) crystal clear, so I am not surprised.



I also don't think that, ethically speaking, abortion ought to be considered a form of population control.
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#6 Old 03-01-2005, 12:11 PM
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Originally Posted by AccidentalVeg View Post

Do you think this is a reasonable course for the Bushies to take?

I challenge you to find ANY reasonable course that the Bushies have taken.



In reference to what Jinga said (and in a rare display of optimism), I do think this very dark Bush era can be healed. It may take a few years though...but look at how quickly they've screwed everything up!
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#7 Old 03-01-2005, 12:12 PM
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This is not news, unfortunately. The administration has long opposed funding for any organization that proves certain birth control information/assistance and/or does not take a strong anti abortion stance.
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#8 Old 03-01-2005, 12:25 PM
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I fully expect Herr Rove to be coordinating voting rights for the unborn. They will all be registered as Repubs too. It's what God would want.



Surreal, people. We are officially getting into a very weird place now as a culture. In the words of Mr Horse from Ren & Stimpy: "No sir, I don't like it."



d
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#9 Old 03-01-2005, 12:29 PM
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I didn't vote for him

My Blog: beforewisdom.com
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#10 Old 03-01-2005, 12:38 PM
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Quote:
What is wrong with these people?



Is it such a bad thing to not want unborn babies killed?
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#11 Old 03-01-2005, 12:57 PM
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Well, I, for one, will never have an abortion.







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#12 Old 03-01-2005, 01:03 PM
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Originally Posted by drake1 View Post

Is it such a bad thing to not want unborn babies killed?



Is it such a bad thing to want to control my own body?

I'm not in control of my body, if I'm not in control of what's growing in it.



Abortions are up under Bush by the way. Way to go Georgie.
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#13 Old 03-01-2005, 01:08 PM
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http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/tgr/05/4/gr050413.html



This kind of policy by the Bush administration will result in more, not fewer, abortions and infant deaths.
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#14 Old 03-01-2005, 01:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drake1 View Post

Is it such a bad thing to not want unborn babies killed?



Are you a vegetarian or a vegan?

My Blog: beforewisdom.com
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#15 Old 03-01-2005, 01:19 PM
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Originally Posted by remilard View Post


I also don't think that, ethically speaking, abortion ought to be considered a form of population control.



I agree with you. Although I think abortion should be legal for some extreme circumstances, I think it has become way too common and accepted.
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#16 Old 03-01-2005, 01:20 PM
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Originally Posted by beforewisdom View Post

Are you a vegetarian or a vegan?



Okay. Settle down, settle down. before things get crazy in here. I don't want to see the abortion debate again. I want to understand this admin.'s policies.



Human rights for women should not be set aside for the rights of small groups of dividing cells or the rights of men to impregnate women at will, giving women no recourse but to have babies they cannot raise.



If the Bush admin. cannot see that, if people in general cannot see that then I do not know what the world is coming to. Why would this administration try to force its religious beliefs on the rest of the world? How can that possibly serve to forge a common ground for nations to shape human rights policy?



Help me understand why they would make it harder for women in poor countries to get a hold of birth control or protect themselves from AIDs?



I am not understanding.
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#17 Old 03-01-2005, 01:22 PM
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Originally Posted by delicious View Post

Is it such a bad thing to want to control my own body?

I'm not in control of my body, if I'm not in control of what's growing in it.



I think this is the crux of the whole abortion debate. If you consider the fetus a part of your body, then yes, you should be able to control whether it's there or not. If you consider the fetus a seperate person with individual rights, then nobody should have the right to kill it.



Personally, I'm very confused about the abortion issue. I find abortions to be very sad. However, I've never been in the situation where I would want to have one. I don't know what that's like, so in a way, I feel I don't have the right to say that it should NEVER be done.



ETA: AccidentalVeg, I posted before I saw that you're not interested in debating abortion here. sorry!
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#18 Old 03-01-2005, 01:24 PM
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not everyone who's against the legality of abortion is religious
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#19 Old 03-01-2005, 02:41 PM
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Quote:
Is it such a bad thing to want to control my own body?



It's usually that lack of control that gets people into that predicament in the first place



Quote:
Are you a vegetarian or a vegan?



No, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.











I'll bow out now. I really am not up to an abortion debate right now. So, I concede.
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#20 Old 03-01-2005, 02:54 PM
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mod post



OK guys. Stay on topic. More abortion-debate posts will be split into a separate thread & you can duke it out there.
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#21 Old 03-01-2005, 05:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AccidentalVeg View Post

Human rights for women should not be set aside for the rights of small groups of dividing cells or the rights of men to impregnate women at will, giving women no recourse but to have babies they cannot raise.



If the Bush admin. cannot see that, if people in general cannot see that then I do not know what the world is coming to. Why would this administration try to force its religious beliefs on the rest of the world? How can that possibly serve to forge a common ground for nations to shape human rights policy?



Help me understand why they would make it harder for women in poor countries to get a hold of birth control or protect themselves from AIDs?



I am not understanding.



Birth control and abortion should not be the same thing. We should help women control their own lives, but helping them get abortions isn't a part of that. I just can't see the connection that my rights as a woman will be eroded in any way by restricting abortions. We should be helping women in developing nations by educating them and men, by helping people get out of poverty so that they'll be able to support themselves and their children. Abortions are a quick fix, not any kind of solution. We need to help fix the root causes of the poverty these women (and men) experience.
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#22 Old 03-01-2005, 05:36 PM
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People dont always seem to grasp the fact that abortion does not have anything to do with women's rights. It has everything to do with the fetus, baby...growing inside. If it is considered to be a living human being then abortion is obviously murder.
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#23 Old 03-01-2005, 05:46 PM
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Originally Posted by sag77 View Post

Birth control and abortion should not be the same thing. We should help women control their own lives, but helping them get abortions isn't a part of that. I just can't see the connection that my rights as a woman will be eroded in any way by restricting abortions. We should be helping women in developing nations by educating them and men, by helping people get out of poverty so that they'll be able to support themselves and their children. Abortions are a quick fix, not any kind of solution. We need to help fix the root causes of the poverty these women (and men) experience.



That sounds really great but the practical matter is that the babies will likely die of starvation/malnutrition, disease or neglect in a situation like a very poor country. I think the women who would opt for an abortion in circumstances like a very poor or famine/drought-ridden nation would be doing so to spare those children lives of suffering they, themselves have endured. It's one thing to take the life of your own fetus and quite another to watch your baby die of malnutrition or malaria. Which sounds preferable to you? Because it's going to be one or the other in many instances. "Educating" people souds enticingly simple but I suspect there's more to it than simply informing them to abstain. AIDS is a very real problem in all countries, not just poorer ones. Why would ANYONE wish to keep people from accessing condoms or other means of reducing the risk? What kind of agenda is that to push on the world? It is inhumane IMO.



The example of France is a good one here. France is a Catholic country by the numbers. Home of arguably the world's most beautiful churches. They have successfully separated church from state. Any schoolgirl can call a 24 hour pharmacy and have the morning-after pill brought to her within an hour. This leaves the girl the decision to make for herself. She got herself in the situation and she alone can decide what to do with her life and her body. This leaves each woman the right to decide what is in their own souls and the church will be there too is she feels badly about her choice. This is how it should be. Each of us is the pilot of our own souls. Who are we to decide for others? Especially if we cannot possibly understand their circumstances?



It's too simple to say we can just tell poor women with few rights how to live their lives. Then again I am quite sure they are used to it by now



d
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#24 Old 03-01-2005, 05:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sag77 View Post

Birth control and abortion should not be the same thing. We should help women control their own lives, but helping them get abortions isn't a part of that. I just can't see the connection that my rights as a woman will be eroded in any way by restricting abortions. We should be helping women in developing nations by educating them and men, by helping people get out of poverty so that they'll be able to support themselves and their children. Abortions are a quick fix, not any kind of solution. We need to help fix the root causes of the poverty these women (and men) experience.



Actually abortion rates are down. Women RARELY use abortion as birth control. They use abortion when other options fail. Most women in developing nations don't use birth control OR abortion. Helping them get out of poverty? In developing nations? How do you purpose to do that might I ask...I'm just curious. They do support themselves...they just do it in a different way than has become palatable for us...the nation that has everything.



Root causes of poverty? Sigh.



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#25 Old 03-01-2005, 05:50 PM
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That sounds really great but the practical matter is that the babies will likely die of starvation/malnutrition, disease or neglect in a situation like a very poor country. I think the women who would opt for an abortion in circumstances like a very poor or famine/drought-ridden nation would be doing so to spare those children lives of suffering they, themselves have endured. It's one thing to take the life of your own fetus and quite another to watch your baby die of malnutrition or malaria. Which sounds preferable to you? Because it's going to be one or the other in many instances. "Educating" people souds enticingly simple but I suspect there's more to it than simply informing them to abstain. AIDS is a very real problem in all countries, not just poorer ones. Why would ANYONE wish to keep people from accessing condoms or other means of reducing the risk? What kind of agenda is that to push on the world? It is inhumane IMO.



The example of France is a good one here. France is a Catholic country by the numbers. Home of arguably the world's most beautiful churches. They have successfully separated church from state. Any schoolgirl can call a 24 hour pharmacy and have the morning-after pill brought to her within an hour. This leaves the girl the decision to make for herself. She got herself in the situation and she alone can decide what to do with her life and her body. This leaves each woman the right to decide what is in their own souls and the church will be there too is she feels badly about her choice. This is how it should be. Each of us is the pilot of our own souls. Who are we to decide for others? Especially if we cannot possibly understand their circumstances?



It's too simple to say we can just tell poor women with few rights how to live their lives. Then again I am quite sure they are used to it by now



d



You said it much better than I did.
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#26 Old 03-01-2005, 10:21 PM
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Without trying to start an abortion discussion, I think its safe to say that some people consider abortion part of women's rights, and other people consider access to abortion not to be a part of women's rights.



Oddly, some of the early feminists thought that abortions were a sign of male domination over women, while now, most feminists have the opposite belief.



Quoting from wikipedia:



Elizabeth Cady Stanton termed abortion infanticide, while Emma Goldman bemoaned the high rate of abortion as "appalling" and "beyond belief" (although the latter firmly supported the right of women to have abortions). Mattie Brinkerhoff characterized abortion as destroying the life of an unborn child, and evidence that a woman "has been greatly wronged." Victoria Woodhull, the first female US presidential candidate, affirmed that "[t]he rights of children as individuals begin while yet they remain the foetus." Caroline Elizabeth Sarah Norton wrote of "infant butcheries" and "ante-natal child murder," describing abortion as interfering with "the right of the unborn to be born." Mary Wollstonecraft suggested outright that abortion violated the laws of nature and Matilda Joslyn Gage suggested it was one of the greatest wrongs against women and that it was committed by men. Alice Paul, author of the first Equal Rights Amendment in 1923, said simply "Abortion is the ultimate exploitation of women." Susan B. Anthony referred to it as "child murder" and said famously: "Guilty? Yes. No matter what the motive, love of ease, or a desire to save from suffering the unborn innocent, the woman is awfully guilty who commits the deed. It will burden her conscience in life, it will burden her soul in death; But oh, thrice guilty is he who drove her to the desperation which impelled her to the crime!"
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#27 Old 03-01-2005, 10:27 PM
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People dont always seem to grasp the fact that abortion does not have anything to do with women's rights. It has everything to do with the fetus, baby...growing inside. If it is considered to be a living human being then abortion is obviously murder.



That would be a big fat no. Even if the fetus is a human, or otherwise a posessor of rights or potential posessor of rights (if such a thing exists) not all killing of things which posess the right to life is murder. The right to live is not a right to not be killed, it is a right to not be killed unjustly.
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#28 Old 03-02-2005, 08:25 AM
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Abortion is a feminist issue to me based solely on the very real consequences of life without its availability. Mainly that women would often severely injure or kill themselves in their attempts to effect their own abortions. Ramming everything up themselves from knitting needles and coat hangers to chemicals. They would die. They would hang themselves, throw themselves into the sea. Poison themselves. So if it were my daughter and she was faced with the choice of carrying the baby to term, killing herslf or trying a science experiment on herself I know what I would prefer she do.



I have never had an abortion because that is not what I would choose for myself but I am not able to decide for another woman and I would never want to do so. I don't know why anyone would deign to make such a decision for another person? And when speaking of the third world these are women whose situations, like I said before, I could never hope to understand. Many women in this world live in such desperate circumstances. Our genteel lives of speculating about what would be best for them must surely look preposterous.



d
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#29 Old 03-02-2005, 10:24 AM
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Originally Posted by AccidentalVeg View Post

Abortion is a feminist issue to me based solely on the very real consequences of life without its availability. Mainly that women would often severely injure or kill themselves in their attempts to effect their own abortions. Ramming everything up themselves from knitting needles and coat hangers to chemicals. They would die. They would hang themselves, throw themselves into the sea. Poison themselves. So if it were my daughter and she was faced with the choice of carrying the baby to term, killing herslf or trying a science experiment on herself I know what I would prefer she do.



And, to me, the problem is that women would ever become this desperate. I think that is the issue that needs to be addressed in this country.



As far as 3rd world countries, I have a problem with "mercy killing". I understand what everyone is saying, but killing people because they will have a bad life just seems morally wrong to me. We are deciding for an unborn child if their life will be good enough for them. Overall, though, it is a tough situation, and I really don't blame anyone involved for their decisions.



As far as our (the usa's) involvment, that isn't right. We are split within this country about the ethics of it, what makes us think we should tell the world what is right and wrong.
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#30 Old 03-02-2005, 10:25 AM
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That would be a big fat no. Even if the fetus is a human, or otherwise a posessor of rights or potential posessor of rights (if such a thing exists) not all killing of things which posess the right to life is murder. The right to live is not a right to not be killed, it is a right to not be killed unjustly.



[biting his tongue so that this does not become another general abortion debate]
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