Should Veganism Be More "Conservative"? - VeggieBoards
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#1 Old 03-03-2017, 05:51 PM
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Should Veganism Be More "Conservative"?

By conservative, I don't mean that we should hold back on our vegan views, nor am I suggesting we be anarcho-capitalists, nor neglect human rights.

By "conservative" I mean that liberal social thought jumped the shark a couple of years ago. Being truly vegan, or even a strict vegetarian for ethical and/or environmental reasons actually isn't compatible with post-modern cultural relativism. We know eating meat is harmful, and the consumption of animal products hurts farmed animals, as well as wildlife. Eating meat also brought horrific diseases like anthrax, HIV, and ebola to mankind. We have science to back our views, and if there are ethical allowances for the truly disabled or impoverished to be vegetarian instead of vegan, our views are indeed rational and in service of the greater good.

"Live and let live" and extreme tolerance of of meat eating cultures actually isn't befitting to a rational ethical vegan. Excusing gross harm to mankind and wildlife under the guise of being afraid to be seen as "racist" is just as absurd as actually believing one race is superior to all others. By that, I mean, some cultural practices should not be tolerated just because the people are from a less developed country, nor because they are POC.

Because frankly, if Muslims and Jewish people could figure out 2000 years ago that consuming blood, dead animals, pigs flesh, pawed animals like cats and dogs, and primates was deeply wrong and disgusting, and that farmed animals should be raised humanely, there's really no excusing spread of deadly disease, animal cruelty nor anything of the kind under the faulty premise that "they don't know any better because they are not from the Western first world."

"Thinkers may prepare revolutions, but bandits must carry them out"~
Ingrid Newkirk

Last edited by Thalassa; 03-03-2017 at 05:55 PM.
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#2 Old 08-30-2017, 08:40 AM
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Originally Posted by ILuvMyPetz View Post
I don't advocate forcing vegetarianism / veganism on anyone. I'm all for freedom.
I'm also all for freedom which is why I advocate veganism on everyone. Humans have no justification for eating animals or using them for products.
If we have no reason to kill, but willfully do it out of selfish desires, shouldn't it always be called murder?

Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good
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#3 Old 11-04-2017, 03:32 PM
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Angry vegan rant incoming 3...2...1

In my experience many Vegans are too passive about this aspect of veganism. And for good reason they fear harsh criticism so they ultimately skate around it. But in the end the goal of veganism is to make animal products a crime am I not right? People get butt hurt very very very quickly when ever you even mention anything that could even remotely effect their "freedom". With cries of the "Nanny State" and "tyranny" and all that jazz.

I guess that's why I'm a bit pessimistic when I come to the stretch goals of the vegan cause. I do it because its just the right thing to do. But I have low hopes for a vegan world in my lifetime. I mean where I live people think the government is being Nazi's when ever it tells them they can't have a machine gun, how are we going to enforce a restriction on animal products?
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#4 Old 11-04-2017, 08:25 PM
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Angry vegan rant incoming 3...2...1

In my experience many Vegans are too passive about this aspect of veganism. And for good reason they fear harsh criticism so they ultimately skate around it. But in the end the goal of veganism is to make animal products a crime am I not right? People get butt hurt very very very quickly when ever you even mention anything that could even remotely effect their "freedom". With cries of the "Nanny State" and "tyranny" and all that jazz.

I guess that's why I'm a bit pessimistic when I come to the stretch goals of the vegan cause. I do it because its just the right thing to do. But I have low hopes for a vegan world in my lifetime. I mean where I live people think the government is being Nazi's when ever it tells them they can't have a machine gun, how are we going to enforce a restriction on animal products?

I try to think in terms of incremental victories for animals, rather than thinking in terms of eliminating world animal consumption 100%.

If I could magically become 18 or 19 years old again, I might choose a career in lab-grown meat technology. If lab-grown meat can become cheap enough, then the livestock industry would almost entirely collapse (except for certain niche markets).

.
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Specific recommendations for a healthy diet include: eating more fruit, vegetables, legumes, nuts and grains; cutting down on salt, sugar and fats. It is also advisable to choose unsaturated fats, instead of saturated fats and towards the elimination of trans-fatty acids."
- United Nations' World Health Organization
http://www.who.int/topics/diet/en/
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#5 Old 11-05-2017, 09:16 AM
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To misquote Shakespeare: "To thine own audience be true".

The thing I've noticed is that many people spread the same message regardless of who they are talking to. We need to tailor our argument (and I use the word "argument" lightly, to mean discussion, or viewpoint) to the receiver.

So if people are interested in the environment, that's the angle we go in with. If people class themselves as animal lovers, then consider talking to them about how intelligent pigs and chickens are. If people love cake, cook them a delicious vegan cake. If people have no interest in the environment, animal welfare, or their health, give them delicious vegan food (without mentioning smuggly that it's vegan or they'll either refuse to try it, or eat it and tell you it's awful). You get my drift.

But some vegans go in hardcore with their message, and they make people feel that they're under attack. It might make the vegan feel superior, but it doesn't help the animals they care so much about. People dig their heels in and become defensive, and the "yum bacon" comments come in thick and fast. And I say this with 36 years of experience behind me. And being one of those people who did dig their heels for 3 months given a hardcore message.

Softlee softlee, catchee monkee, as my dad used to say (I've got no idea why, he was bought up in Ireland, not in a jungle )

Be kind to people, and introduce them to the idea that eating animals is a bad idea gently, slowly, and with the compassion that we expect for animals. Give them delicious vegan food. Get them to drop their defenses before forcing a copy of Earthlings into their hands. People have years of omnivorous thinking ingrained in them and they are surrounded by people who think the same. Change, for many people, can be difficult.

If we want to help and encourage them to change, we have to meet them in their playground first, rather than verbally abusing them from ours and still expecting them to come over and play with us. Many of us used to be omnivores. Some of us watched Earthlings and stopped eating meat immediately. Others read Peter Singer's Animal Liberation and stopped eating meat the same day (hey! that's me!). But others took a good time to come round to the idea, or they took time and gradually cut meat/fish/dairy/eggs out of their lives.

Everyone is different. Learn to know your audience before you start your presentation, and you will have much more success in getting people to see things your way.

That's my opinion anyway. Backed up by Shakespeare
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#6 Old 11-05-2017, 10:20 AM
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I agree with gently leading people instead of haranguing them or calling them murderers. If what you want to do is reduce animal suffering and death, even getting someone to cut way back on their consumption of animal products is a victory. For some people change is instantaneous, for others, it is incremental.

HOWEVER, philosophically speaking, as Colleen Patrick-Goudreau puts it, "Your right to throw your fist ends at my face." I do not think people eating animal products is a "freedom" issue. It is an ethics issue. When your actions directly hurt another living being, it's time to reexamine those actions.
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#7 Old 11-05-2017, 03:19 PM
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Hopefully we can slowly change people's minds about animal products. But its hard to change people's minds because you are dealing with so many false ideas about animals.
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#8 Old 11-05-2017, 07:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Iridium View Post
Hopefully we can slowly change people's minds about animal products. But its hard to change people's minds because you are dealing with so many false ideas about animals.

It takes a certain kind of person to effectively influence others to become vegetarian. Not everyone can do it - I certainly can't.

You know what though? There are a lot of other, very effective ways to move the public away from animal products. A partial list of these ways might include: (1) Helping new vegetarians to stay vegetarian, (2) Developing affordable and convincing meat/dairy substitutes, (3) Initiating and supporting laws that improve living conditions for livestock animals.

The number of vegetarians can be higher, if new vegetarians can be assisted and encouraged to remain vegetarian. According to a 2005 CBS News survey, only 2% of Americans self-identify as vegetarians, but 6% say that they used to be vegetarian, but no longer are (see the very bottom of the survey: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/how-and...-america-eats/ ). Imagine if all of these former vegetarians had instead remained vegetarian; this would mean that 8% of the U.S. population could be vegetarian - 1 out of every 12 people.

By developing affordable and convincing meat/dairy substitutes, we can encourage people to eat less meat. This is already happening. Some of the newer texturized soy "meat" products are amazing - even good enough to satisfy omnivores. The world market for vegetarian "meats" is rapidly growing: https://www.globalmeatnews.com/Artic...-5.2bn-by-2020 . There is even a new vegan "hamburger" that "bleeds" when you cut it. https://www.wired.com/video/2017/09/the-strange-science-of-the-veggie-burger-that-bleeds/

By initiating and supporting laws that improve farm animal conditions, we can (1) reduce the suffering of livestock animals, and (2) raise the cost of producing meat, dairy, and eggs, and thus reduce consumer demand for these products. This is already happening. California's Proposition 2 (passed in 2008) now requires that egg-laying hens be given larger cages to live in. This has increased the price of eggs (and lowered consumer demand for eggs) in California. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Califo...ition_2_(2008)
Similar laws have been enacted in Europe and Australia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battery_cage
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_________

Specific recommendations for a healthy diet include: eating more fruit, vegetables, legumes, nuts and grains; cutting down on salt, sugar and fats. It is also advisable to choose unsaturated fats, instead of saturated fats and towards the elimination of trans-fatty acids."
- United Nations' World Health Organization
http://www.who.int/topics/diet/en/

Last edited by David3; 11-06-2017 at 12:24 PM.
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