We can certainly quantify a period of time of suffering and a number of people or animals suffering so in that sense we can put numbers to suffering. For example, we can say that 100 animals suffering for a year is, all other things being equal, worse than 1 animal suffering for a day. That is a numerical analysis applied to pain and suffering. It may even, at least in theory, be possible to quantify severity of pain by measuring the amount of neurons affected and brain activity or something although this part is more controversial and debatable.

It's only inaccurate if you are unaware that much of the world is not beholden to Western definitions of veg*nism. Perhaps we should go to India and school them on how they got it wrong.
I'm sure that they will be happy to toss out a few thousand years of their veg*n culture once some white dude explains to them that the cult of vegan is the supreme authority on such matters

Vrindavana or Vrindavan is where Sri Krishna spent his childhood. The poster is obviously South Asian and has every right to define these terms as he pleases -without regard to some self-appointed society of Anglo-Saxon vegan wordsmiths who claim they were first and thus, own the rights to the concept.

In using the term veg*n, you are combining vegetarianism and veganism. Are you seriously saying that, in India, veganism is widespread and/or has a long history? If you google 'veganism in India', that certainly doesn't seem to be the case. Unless you are redefining veganism to fit in with practices in India and redefining veganism is of course what this thread is all about?

Not sure why the colour of Donald Watson's skin should matter any more than the skin colour of Buddha and Jesus...

Lv

I am saying that millions of Indians both inside and outside India are practicing what would easily pass for what Westerners call veganism. There are millions more Indians who are practicing vegetarians. Both of these practices in India are ancient. Cherry picking and then repackaging what someone else has been doing for millennia and renaming it, well why not.

Actually, the title of this thread appears to be an invitation to share an opinion. It's only after the sharing do we find out the nature behind its asking.

Race does matter. The British, and the West in general feel free to appropriate what they like and condemn what they don't -and then have the nerve to explain how members of that culture don't know what they're talking about. "This is inaccurate and I'm trying to figure out where you got this info from.", indeed. It's not even a question, how patronizing.

What you are saying about the number of vegans (and their history) in India has to be based on some firm evidence to be credible. Perhaps you would care to supply this. "Easily pass for what Westerners call veganism" smacks of "my-friend-is-a-vegetarian-but-she-eats- chicken" to me. Are you saying, for instance, that Indian "vegans" drink bovine milk?

You do realise that I'm not the member who made the "This is inaccurate etc" comment? I'm also bemused that you seem to be using The British/the West/Westerners to try to bolster one argument and then as terms of discredit in another argument. I have to say with respect that your introduction of race does appear to be off-topic and purely a device to enable you to have a "pop" at particular geographic entities.

Lv

Strict vegetarians do not eat onions, garlic or eggs was the comment challenged. I think it's fair to say that this is wrong internationally, not just in UK/US but in most places like Europe and South America also.

Regarding India, http://kurma.net/essays/e19.html has some detail on this.

https://www.quora.com/Why-are-onion-...by-some-Hindus

This would seem to be a spiritual/religious matter.

If you look at the second thread regarding the taboo or minimized use of onion and garlic, there are two posts from Indians saying it is not non-veg to eat these, but done for other reasons. So I think whether onion and garlic are avoided explicitly within the definition of vegetarianism, or for other reasons, in India, would seem to be a grey area.

Yes, the onions/garlic avoidance is not a vegetarian issue...which is why I bolded the comment I was disagreeing with. Religious/spiritual reasons are separate from vegetarianism.

First you say you don't understand me or human psychology, then you say you can read my mind. One of those is true. It is isn't the mind-reading, though.

When I joined these boards, it was my understanding that this was a place to find support for adopting a vegan lifestyle. From your perspective it appears to be a place where you can berate others for the failure to rise to standards you assume they don't meet. I won't allow you to bully me for not submitting to the beating.

ETA: For the rest of you who might be reading along, here it is, in a nutshell.

If I have come to the conclusion, as I have, that consumption of animal products is immoral, and I have sought out a community who also think this in order to support my efforts to live in accordance with my values, but find instead that in spite of this they are doing other things I find problematic, and treating other people harshly and rudely, it is not an "excuse not to go vegan" for me to avoid those people. Instead, I choose, because I don't want to develop an association in my own mind between veganism and emotional cruelty to people, to avoid people and communities I find to be emotionally cruel. If I were to associate veganism with emotional cruelty to humans, that would create a psychological roadblock or challenge. If I began to believe that being vegan meant being mean to other people, I would develop a psychological aversion to veganism. I do not believe that being vegan must mean this, so I have chosen to spend my time elsewhere.

I sought a supportive community, found something else, and expressed that. The responses I received seem to confirm that this is not a community that will be supportive to each other. This is regrettable.

I am thankful to those of you who have been supportive in the time I did spend here. Many of you seem to treat each other kindly, and I am glad that you are here. You were a lifeline to me earlier. My own emotional state will not permit me to fight with vegans and struggle along in a world built for omnivores at the same time, though, so as much as I'd love to be here to be supportive to others in the way you were supportive to me, I will have to leave you again for a time.

Hi Avril. I'm sorry that you have chosen to leave.

For veggies and vegans who come for support on VF, the Support and Transitioning sub-forums, as their names imply, are the more appropriate places to engage with other members.

When discussion becomes, or is likely to become, heated (as with this thread) then threads in the Compost Heap sub-forum are best avoided by those not wanting "more robust" discussions.

This is what mmckay's "sticky" posting says at the head of the Compost Heap threads;

The Compost Heap is for discussions that are more controversial (including vegetarian/vegan issues) and may lead to serious debate.

NOTE: When posting in The Compost Heap please be aware that discussions may become heated. If you are overly sensitive you may want to avoid this area. If you are participating in a Compost Heap discussion remember that we're all adults. If someone pushes your buttons, try sending them a PM to suss it out, before simply flagging a post (mods don't want to have to police this area due to excessive flags).

Please stay on-topic. If you want to change the subject, feel free to begin a new thread about it.


Anyway my good wishes to you and I look forward to reading your posts when you return.

Leedsveg

@Avril , if you're around to see this I hope you respond.
I completely understand being bashed by any group you share opinions with is an unpleasant, angry feeling. Is there a group out there where anamosity doesn't exist?

In the vegan community there are the same types of people as exist everywhere else. Stereotypes are formed from behavior that stands out, that causes people to remember that behavior and label it with the group it's been seen with. People on welfare are lazy. Immigrants are dangerous. Feminists are judgemental.... take issue with these? You should, they're unkind, and not realistic. How about middle aged white men being pedophiles? pretty much same percentage, just from a really large group to pick from.

Veg*n groups, like VB, compromise a wide range of people who have many reasons to avoid meat. We have different forums to give voice to all outlooks, and they're monitored to avoid direct insults and false claims.

I'm sorry you don't like this forum, but as leedsveg says- the compost heap is not a place for everyone. It's a specific outlet for extreme and unpopular opinions and open discussion.

If you feel more accepted amidst random omnis it's really a pretty false securtity. I can guarentee that acceptance is from nothing but greater odds from a a much larger base. Don't forget your acceptance of them has everything to do with their acceptance of you.

I don't know if @Thalassa is as edgy in real life as comes across here, after all, this is a forum, and sub forum, to get real with your opinions. I don't go around saying meat is murder, but yeah, I feel meat is murder.
We all need to get along, but when you know the use of animals is nothing but barbaric you do have to choose how you walk that thin line of peaceful advocacy and wanting to rage war.