Hillary Clinton secures nomination - Page 2 - VeggieBoards
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#31 Old 08-08-2016, 01:34 PM
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Didn't see a newer Clinton thread so I'll post here. "The Clinton camp supports debt-free college, paid family leave and a federal minimum wage."

Some HORRIBLE ideas.

Who incurs the debt for everyone else's schooling? You do. The middle class is impacted the hardest because the poor have zero taxes to pay. On the bright side, at least we'd have an educated workforce (which means more competition in the job market for you -- which is actually good for me as a business owner so I can lower the salaries).

$15 federal minimum wage. Other than asking the cliche question of whether a guy who packs boxes deserves $15/hr, I'll just say if this happened, half the people in my company would be fired and I'll be forced to move our operations overseas.

I should probably start looking into investing in machines just to be on the safe side in case this crap actually happens.
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#32 Old 08-08-2016, 04:17 PM
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#33 Old 08-08-2016, 05:23 PM
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$15 federal minimum wage. Other than asking the cliche question of whether a guy who packs boxes deserves $15/hr,
Does this guy "deserve" to be able to buy food, keep a roof over his head, pay utility bills, transportation costs, medical expenses and other basic necessities if he's working a full time job? Or does packing boxes full time mean that he "deserves" to bunk down on a park bench somewhere?
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#34 Old 08-08-2016, 06:04 PM
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I'm so sick of this argument!
It's not how much you earn that dictates what you can afford, it the price of goods.
Raising the minimum wage will never keep up with inflated prices. We need price control on goods..
Why isn't the cost of non renewable resources affordable to a certain level--go over that use and the price goes up incrementally? Businesses could petition for rates with use of energy efficeinct standards

Profits also need caps. there is absolutely no reason for individuals to pay themselves exhorbitant salaries, and then be allowed to leave billion dollar legacies, from nothing but their money making money.

We shouldn't need the welfare systems we have- but we do need to provide a leg up without making people become destitute first
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#35 Old 08-08-2016, 10:35 PM
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Does this guy "deserve" to be able to buy food, keep a roof over his head, pay utility bills, transportation costs, medical expenses and other basic necessities if he's working a full time job? Or does packing boxes full time mean that he "deserves" to bunk down on a park bench somewhere?
Bunk down on a bench, what? Are you seriously giving me this weak strawman argument? This guy isn't in your dire situation.

I'll humor this. At $9 an hour, involving work that a six year old can do, no, this guy doesn't deserve $15/hr, which is how much EMTs earn for saving lives.
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#36 Old 08-08-2016, 10:37 PM
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I'm so sick of this argument!
It's not how much you earn that dictates what you can afford, it the price of goods.
Raising the minimum wage will never keep up with inflated prices. We need price control on goods..
Why isn't the cost of non renewable resources affordable to a certain level--go over that use and the price goes up incrementally? Businesses could petition for rates with use of energy efficeinct standards

Profits also need caps. there is absolutely no reason for individuals to pay themselves exhorbitant salaries, and then be allowed to leave billion dollar legacies, from nothing but their money making money.

We shouldn't need the welfare systems we have- but we do need to provide a leg up without making people become destitute first
It's a free market. You can't impose price control on goods beyond a point. However, I agree that raising the minimum wage isn't the answer.

Profit caps? Then what's the motivation to own a business? I'll be candid. If my goal is to make a million a year for myself, as several other members of my extended family currently do, that is my standard and my definition of baseline financial success. When I get there, I'll have earned it through a series of investments and calculated risks.

While the box packer was busy drinking at the bar, I've been busy calling companies, sitting with clients, tweaking the manufacturing process, finding new suppliers, finding resellers, working on patents, engineering new things...

Profit caps would be terrible. Even if they were there, it'd still be company capital and wouldn't end up in employee salaries either way.
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#37 Old 08-09-2016, 06:05 PM
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While the box packer was busy drinking at the bar
Dang man. Could we have this conversation without denigrating or demonizing people we don't know? Maybe that box packer is juggling full time school and work while also acting as caregiver for a sick parent. Every person just might be fighting a battle you know nothing about.
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#38 Old 08-10-2016, 02:02 AM
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Dang man. Could we have this conversation without denigrating or demonizing people we don't know? Maybe that box packer is juggling full time school and work while also acting as caregiver for a sick parent. Every person just might be fighting a battle you know nothing about.
Or off to a second job because $9 an hour won't pay the bills for lifes basics.
Or home to watch the kids so mom can go to her work because they can't afford day care

A bit out of touch to think everyone is able to get higher wages
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#39 Old 08-10-2016, 02:26 AM
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I know at least one person with a serious mental illness who works at a grocery store stocking shelves and so on. This is what they are able to handle while being on hardcore medication and dealing with problems most of us will never understand. Without assistance from various programs (that are thankfully in place because some of us have fought very hard for them) this person can afford their medication to function and work. The job itself wouldn't pay enough for those meds let alone all the other basic life expenses (they don't even drive, they bike or bus to work), and often those jobs do not come with health insurance and so on.
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#40 Old 08-10-2016, 04:03 PM
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I know at least one person with a serious mental illness who works at a grocery store stocking shelves and so on.
I am so glad he's able to hold down a "regular" type of job. Many disabled people wind up in sheltered workshops working for subminimum wages. This is a separate issue from the minimum wage issue, but it rarely gets talked about.
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#41 Old 08-10-2016, 09:36 PM
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I'll humor this. At $9 an hour, involving work that a six year old can do, no, this guy doesn't deserve $15/hr, which is how much EMTs earn for saving lives.
I agree that EMTs' are underpaid, if they're earning $15 per hour. They deserve to earn more, certainly more than people who do this:

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While the box packer was busy drinking at the bar, I've been busy calling companies, sitting with clients, tweaking the manufacturing process, finding new suppliers, finding resellers, working on patents, engineering new things...
In fact some of the most taxing, difficult, unpleasant (and also very necessary) work is paid the least. Growing up on a farm, I did some back breaking work in terrible conditions. Working as a professional, in a nicely climate controlled office, doing intellectually stimulating work was a joy. I think that the worker who is doing hard work in difficult conditions deserves to earn a lot more than the person who is doing work that doesn't take a physical toll and is actually rather fun.

I suspect that if you had a choice between being the person who makes the decisions and issues the orders, on the one hand, and on the other hand being one of a number of underlings subject to the whims of the boss, you'd choose the former, even if the pay were the same. I know I would.

It's odd that we financially reward those who perform the most sought after type of work so much more highly than we financially reward those who do the kind of work that those who have the option avoid with all their might.

There's nothing much "deserving" about it.
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#42 Old 08-11-2016, 02:00 AM
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Bunk down on a bench, what? Are you seriously giving me this weak strawman argument? This guy isn't in your dire situation.

I'll humor this. At $9 an hour, involving work that a six year old can do, no, this guy doesn't deserve $15/hr, which is how much EMTs earn for saving lives.
I feel bad for your employees. These are human beings whose work is just as worthy of respect as your working at your million dollar business.
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#43 Old 08-11-2016, 10:08 AM
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While the box packer was busy drinking at the bar, ...
Why was he drinking at a bar?

Did you ask him? Or do you not socialize with those outside of your "class"?

What if he was reflecting on his crappy, menial, mind-numbing job? What about having to deal with insurmountable debt because he isn't paid well? Perhaps reflecting on the fact that he can barely face his family because he's ashamed that he can't afford basic necessities, like food? What about worrying about how he's going to pay his medical bills, or his family's medical bills, because the company he works for doesn't offer appropriate medical coverage? What if he's worrying because his spouse just lost a job and now they can't afford their planned vacation this year, let alone rent for the month? What if he just lost his second or third jobs, and now needs to find another just to make enough money to live? What if he's concerned with the ever increasing cost of living, while his employer refuses to increase wages? What if his son or daughter wants to go to college, but he's mad at himself because he can't afford it?

What if drinking at a bar is his only escape?

An escape from the h*ll that was created by people in more privileged positions.

You need to learn a new perspective. If you can't do this, I feel sorry for you.
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#44 Old 08-11-2016, 11:44 AM
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Look, I'm sorry if I've offended any of you and I don't want to be the guy who looks down on people. I'll think about this some more and post later.
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#45 Old 08-12-2016, 10:01 PM
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I'll take back my original comment of whether a box packer deserves $15 an hour -- he has every right to support his family and pursue life, liberty, and happiness to the fullest extent just as you or I.

All of your examples about good people being in unfortunate situations -- I feel for them, truly. Perhaps I've lived a privileged life where I never had to worry about food, shelter, paying for college, or anything of the sort, so I won't claim to know what it's like or judge those in the unfortunate situations that you've all highlighted.

If $15/hr is what it takes for one to live a decent life, so be it. However, that money has to come from somewhere. You can't raise the wages and assume all companies have enough profits to pay for it. Fact: many people will lose their jobs. They'll go from earning $9/hr to $0. And I guarantee that more jobs will move overseas or be further replaced by machines.
@TailFin This has nothing to do with my class, so drop the pathetic deflection. I've already mentioned that this guy isn't in such a dire situation, so what do you think that implies, Sherlock? I've already talked to him. And why would I talk to him? Before making subtle character implications, understand that you have no idea who you're talking to.

This guy has the same 24 hours as Elon Musk, as Bill Gates, as Warren Buffet, and as you and I. If you want to move up in life, you have to do things today that other people won't do so that you can live a life tomorrow that other people can't live. We live in a world where some of us are going to make our millions and some of you won't. But the option is always there for you if you want to move up, as impossible / improbable as it may seem.
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#46 Old 08-12-2016, 10:07 PM
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I agree that EMTs' are underpaid, if they're earning $15 per hour. They deserve to earn more, certainly more than people who do this:

In fact some of the most taxing, difficult, unpleasant (and also very necessary) work is paid the least. Growing up on a farm, I did some back breaking work in terrible conditions. Working as a professional, in a nicely climate controlled office, doing intellectually stimulating work was a joy. I think that the worker who is doing hard work in difficult conditions deserves to earn a lot more than the person who is doing work that doesn't take a physical toll and is actually rather fun.

I suspect that if you had a choice between being the person who makes the decisions and issues the orders, on the one hand, and on the other hand being one of a number of underlings subject to the whims of the boss, you'd choose the former, even if the pay were the same. I know I would.

It's odd that we financially reward those who perform the most sought after type of work so much more highly than we financially reward those who do the kind of work that those who have the option avoid with all their might.

There's nothing much "deserving" about it.
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I feel bad for your employees. These are human beings whose work is just as worthy of respect as your working at your million dollar business.
@LedBoots @Beautiful Joe You guys are right.
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#47 Old 08-13-2016, 10:49 AM
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@nr32 , read this if you have a moment in your busy day.

http://www.upworthy.com/a-short-comi...-ive-ever-seen
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#48 Old 08-15-2016, 08:04 PM
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I'd like to add that not everyone has an intelligence level of a businessperson and being able to make 100 grand let alone a million a year.
some people are not capable of doing much more than physical labour jobs. A low wage would suck big time when you don't have the IQ to get a better job.
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