Is Abortion Vegan? | The Pro Choice Dilemma - Page 2 - VeggieBoards
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#31 Old 04-14-2016, 06:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Naturebound View Post
Pharmacists and retail stores can still refuse to give out this pill for religious reasons and they do indeed exercise that right.

http://nwlc.org/resources/pharmacy-r...ng-after-pill/
http://www.theglow.com.au/health/pha...ng-after-pill/
Also, it's about 60 percent effective in real usage. It's basically taking a month's worth of bc pills at once. (But don't anyone do this, there are differences.)
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#32 Old 04-14-2016, 07:39 PM
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The first weblink didn't work. Can you correct the URL?

The 2nd article describes something that happened in Australia, not in the United States. Are young woman being refused sale of emergency contraception in the United States?


.
I'm not sure why the first link is not working now, but if you do a google search "Pharmacies refuse to sell morning after pill" there are plenty of reports. Here is one for example:

http://www.usnews.com/opinion/articl...-contraception

I included the link in Australia because this is a worldwide problem, not just in the U.S.

There is a catholic hospital that was annexed into the health system I work for, and they will not do sterilizations (for men or women), abortions, nor provide contraception or birth control pills while a woman is in their hospital. There is however, another hospital very close by where patients are transffered if they want these services.

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#33 Old 04-15-2016, 12:09 AM
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There is a catholic hospital that was annexed into the health system I work for, and they will not do sterilizations (for men or women), abortions, nor provide contraception or birth control pills while a woman is in their hospital.
Yes, this is standard for Catholic hospitals. My stepdaughter wanted to get a tubal ligation at the same time as her second C-section, but since her OBGYN was affiliated with a Catholic hospital, she couldn't have it done at the same time, and had to go to another hospital for a separate procedure.
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#34 Old 04-15-2016, 12:10 AM
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Also, it's about 60 percent effective in real usage. It's basically taking a month's worth of bc pills at once. (But don't anyone do this, there are differences.)
That's not a very high effective rate.
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#35 Old 04-15-2016, 12:13 AM
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It's easy for me to see both sides. A vegan could easily be pro life because of the regard for the rights of all living animals, a fetus being a living animal, despite its lack of full humanity or identity. Just as there are pro life feminists who agree with the original first wave feminist view that abortion is unnecessary violence against woman's bodies and the state of motherhood.

Other vegans and feminists say everything is about choice.
That reminds me of something else that is conflated for no good reason: feminism and veganism.
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#36 Old 04-15-2016, 02:15 AM
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That's not a very high effective rate.
I agree. The idea is excellent, the actual product, not so much. I mean, it is safe, and does cut down the possibility of becoming pregnant, just not by as much as one would hope.
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#37 Old 04-15-2016, 04:07 AM
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That reminds me of something else that is conflated for no good reason: feminism and veganism.
I think it's because feminists, like some spiritual or religious people, see veganism as something that fits into the general frame work of their beliefs.

But veganism doesn't imply feminist beliefs any more than it implies Buddhism. In fact I think it's great if all different types of people are vegan for different reasons, because the outcome is good no matter their beliefs.
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#38 Old 04-15-2016, 04:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Naturebound View Post
I'm not sure why the first link is not working now, but if you do a google search "Pharmacies refuse to sell morning after pill" there are plenty of reports. Here is one for example:

http://www.usnews.com/opinion/articl...-contraception

I included the link in Australia because this is a worldwide problem, not just in the U.S.

There is a catholic hospital that was annexed into the health system I work for, and they will not do sterilizations (for men or women), abortions, nor provide contraception or birth control pills while a woman is in their hospital. There is however, another hospital very close by where patients are transffered if they want these services.
I don't think that's wrong. Catholic people are entitled to their beliefs and they should not have to perform sterilization or abortion any more than a vegetarian should have to serve people meat.

I know my opinion might not be popular, but as long as there is no overt racial or sex discrimination, I don't think people should have to provide services that oppose their most sacred beliefs.

I have nothing against gays, for example, but they can get married in the Unitarian church or at the court house, I think it's absurd for them to complain if Southern Baptists won't marry them. Just go somewhere else to get married. This is America.
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#39 Old 04-15-2016, 10:17 AM
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I don't think that's wrong. Catholic people are entitled to their beliefs and they should not have to perform sterilization or abortion any more than a vegetarian should have to serve people meat.

I know my opinion might not be popular, but as long as there is no overt racial or sex discrimination, I don't think people should have to provide services that oppose their most sacred beliefs.

I have nothing against gays, for example, but they can get married in the Unitarian church or at the court house, I think it's absurd for them to complain if Southern Baptists won't marry them. Just go somewhere else to get married. This is America.
I don't think anyone has any expectation that a Southern Baptist minister should be required to perform a marriage ceremony for a same sex couple. Performing wedding ceremonies is an intrinsic part of the religious practices of churches, and a minister can refuse to perform a wedding ceremony for any reason he decides, including personal dislike for any of the individuals involved.*

Providing medical care, OTOH, is not part of a church's religious practice. That's why it's legal for a church to hire only members of its own faith to teach Sunday school and perform other functions considered to be an intrinsic part of the church's religious practices, and it's not legal to hire only Catholics to work at Catholic-owned hospitals.


*I think that the system in place in many European countries actually makes sense - everyone who wants to get married does so with a civil ceremony. Those who want to then have the choice of having their union sanctified by their church, but it is the civil ceremony that creates the marriage for legal purposes.
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#40 Old 04-15-2016, 11:28 AM
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Providing medical care, OTOH, is not part of a church's religious practice. That's why it's legal for a church to hire only members of its own faith to teach Sunday school and perform other functions considered to be an intrinsic part of the church's religious practices, and it's not legal to hire only Catholics to work at Catholic-owned hospitals.

Yes. It's crazy that personal beliefs should interfere with any essential service at all.

Medical aid, provision of shelter, access to water and food, emergency services in the instance of fire or flood or earthquake etc., police intervention in crime.. etc. the list could go on.

The provision of NONE of these kinds of essential services should be interfered with because of a set of utterly arbitrary personal beliefs (whether those personal beliefs are somehow 'formally sanctioned' by a powerful institution, or not).

If the service is religious in nature, yes it's a religious matter. But otherwise, subjective religious belief should interfere in the provision of care no more than any other personal prejudice or bias.

If someone feels unable to provide an essential service due to their ethnic background, sexual orientation, religious beliefs, political leanings, class background, culturally instituted beliefs or pure personal bigotry, they should be legally exempted from needing to be be considered to be hired to perform that service.

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#41 Old 04-15-2016, 01:14 PM
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I personally do not think I would go through with having an abortion, although my state in life contributes significantly to that as I am happily married to the only person I've ever had sex with so paternity is not an issue. However, I believe women should have the choice.

My mother chose to have an abortion as a young teenager and if she hadn't, I probably wouldn't be here. She was in an abusive relationship at the time (not physically as far as I know, but he was very controlling. For example, they did not live together but after he went to bed at around 8:00 pm, he didn't want her going out anywhere). Had she not had an abortion, she may very well have been stuck in that relationship or would've had to take care of a baby herself and probably would've ended up dropping out of high school.

There are all kinds of situations where women go in to have an abortion, some reasons I am more comfortable with than others. However, it's not practical nor right to judge on a case by case basis since abortion is such a widely debated topic. Therefore, I believe that having the choice available is the right thing to do. Because making abortion illegal won't stop abortions from happening, it'll just make it a lot more unsafe and I think women should have a safe option for abortion should they choose to go through with it.

I don't associate my views with abortion with my veganism, since I've had these views way before going vegan and just because I've now gone vegan, it does not mean my views have changed.

Like Emily says, vegans are a very different group of people with varying views on religion, politics, and other hot button topics like abortion and we can't really equate one view or the other as not being vegan.
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#42 Old 04-15-2016, 06:56 PM
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Yes. It's crazy that personal beliefs should interfere with any essential service at all.

Medical aid, provision of shelter, access to water and food, emergency services in the instance of fire or flood or earthquake etc., police intervention in crime.. etc. the list could go on.

The provision of NONE of these kinds of essential services should be interfered with because of a set of utterly arbitrary personal beliefs (whether those personal beliefs are somehow 'formally sanctioned' by a powerful institution, or not).

If the service is religious in nature, yes it's a religious matter. But otherwise, subjective religious belief should interfere in the provision of care no more than any other personal prejudice or bias.

If someone feels unable to provide an essential service due to their ethnic background, sexual orientation, religious beliefs, political leanings, class background, culturally instituted beliefs or pure personal bigotry, they should be legally exempted from needing to be be considered to be hired to perform that service.

Abortion and sterilization aren't essential service. As long as they are performing life saving care and delivering babies or performing pelvic exams, they aren't denying anyone anything "essential"...sterilization and abortion are elective surgical procedures, and the individual could simply seek a different doctor.

Also @Beautiful Joe
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#43 Old 04-16-2016, 10:19 AM
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This video is one of the most carefully-considered essays about abortion I've ever come across.

Peasant (1963-1972) and Fluffy (1970s?-1982- I think of you as 'Ambrose' now)- Your spirits outshone some humans I have known. Be happy forever.
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#44 Old 04-16-2016, 08:16 PM
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Even suggesting that vegans may not be free to make their own reproductive choices because of their veganism is dangerous. The potentially disastrous and far-reaching consequences of framing the discussion in this way need to be considered -- will someone not seek appropriate medical care because of it? Women's lives may be permanently altered if they even delay medical care in the case of unwanted pregnancy.

The vegan community ought to stay away from suggesting that veganism might determine anything about what women do with their bodies, if we know what is good for us.
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#45 Old 04-17-2016, 05:14 AM
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I finally got time to watch the video. Really good job on a very difficult subject, Emily. (And may I say, your arms look cut, girl!)

I think that abortion needs to be something each vegan has to decide the ethics of, where to draw the lines, etc. Like the death penalty (US), is also an ethical dilemma.

My veganism is so much an integral part of how I look at things now that I guess it's like the glasses I see the world through. Vegan-colored glasses.
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