Homicide rate in the U.S. - Page 3 - VeggieBoards
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#61 Old 02-11-2016, 04:04 AM
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I don't like guns, and I do not advocate gun ownership at all. Guns kill. Just want to make that clear first.

My conflict is that police and military people would still be allowed to have and use guns while their citizens are stripped of them, thereby giving authority figures even more power that is too often abused (as someone mentioned above). Why not strip governments and police of guns as well? In an ideal world, guns would not exist. For now, we are far from an ideal world. I would advocate that guns be banned from EVERYONE, not just civilians. Of course, that will never happen. At least there should be stricter laws about when authority figures can properly use them. I do understand that these authority figures put their lives on the line for their line of work. And I appreciate that risk and difficulty. But they should also be screened more thoroughly before being allowed to handle guns.
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#62 Old 02-11-2016, 04:26 AM
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@Lipps I can't help but roll my eyes at your slippery slope arguments. (Should we ban toasters, too?!) Ban guns. That's it. It doesn't have to go any further than that. If Americans care more about their "right" to own a gun than about the lives of thousands of innocent people, including children, then I really don't know what to say except that Americans are fools and I'm glad to have moved.
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#63 Old 02-11-2016, 08:11 AM
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@Lipps I can't help but roll my eyes at your slippery slope arguments. (Should we ban toasters, too?!) Ban guns. That's it. It doesn't have to go any further than that. If Americans care more about their "right" to own a gun than about the lives of thousands of innocent people, including children, then I really don't know what to say except that Americans are fools and I'm glad to have moved.
Who said anything about banning toasters? My questions about banning items are meant to sound absurd because it is absurd -but living in the UK, you know that. After all, where you live they are having people turn in pointy kitchen knives.

http://www.snopes.com/2015/06/22/sav...er-your-knife/


Quote:
A team from West Middlesex University Hospital said violent crime is on the increase — and kitchen knives are used in as many as half of all stabbings.

They argued many assaults are committed impulsively, prompted by alcohol and drugs, and a kitchen knife often makes an all too available weapon.

The research is published in the British Medical Journal.

The researchers said there was no reason for long pointed knives to be publicly available at all.

They consulted 10 top chefs from around the UK, and found such knives have little practical value in the kitchen.

None of the chefs felt such knives were essential, since the point of a short blade was just as useful when a sharp end was needed.
So yes, those Brits are serious about knife control.
Notice, the researchers admit many attacks are impulsive and prompted by drugs or alcohol. It's as if the UK is resigned to the idea that individuals cannot be expected to exercise a modicum of self-control. It sounds like the UK is becoming a daycare center for drunk teenagers.
I prefer to live in a place where citizens are trusted with kitchen knives that have sharp blades and pointy ends -you don't. I'm ok with that. You should be too.

Slippery slope, indeed.

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#64 Old 02-11-2016, 08:12 AM
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@Lipps (I figured I'd mention rather than quote to save space)

Thanks for the diagram of the gun safety measures. I have seen the five rules before for operating. I've also seen another set of five rules for concealed carry, which I think are pretty good. Found here. My favorite rule is #3.

While guns aren't too different from any other product regarding safety and manufacture, their purpose and potential misuse is very different. I do find this quote to be somewhat relative, to which I'm sure many people on this forum can agree (even ones that are pro-gun): 'Guns don't kill people, other people do. Guns just make it so much easier'.

In all of this, I lean more towards stricter gun control. Personally, I think it would be an ideal world without guns, but that's unrealistic. Guns will be around, whether 3D printed, bought illegally, or bought legally. We need more regulation. I know guns aren't going anywhere in my lifetime, but hopefully future generations will do something. I typically try to vote for the future, not my future, but future generations.

Self-regulation does not work out well. People and companies need oversight to help. I understand your perspective of not holding the dealer responsible. That said, I don't fully agree with it. If they have less oversight, they are self-regulated. I don't think self-regulation works well. Why do we need police officers if we could all just self-regulate the laws of society? That would be great, but it doesn't work that way.

Regarding one recent case, a dealer essentially helped with a straw purchase: http://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/13/us...=top-news&_r=0

This is one example of self-regulation and how it can go wrong. Also, it's an example of why dealers need to be held to higher standards. In similar situations, a store clerk will be held accountable if they are knowingly providing alcohol or cigarettes through straw purchases or to minors. One of my supervisors (when I was a teenager working as a cashier in a big box "mart" store) got caught knowingly selling cigarettes to minors. She was fired on the spot. As a cashier, I have had many instances where I turned people away for various reasons. A brief selection is below. If I sold any of these products to these people, I would have been fired immediately. Not only that, the store would have likely been in trouble and would have had to do more 'training' of employees.

(1) I had two very young teenagers (could barely pass for 15) come up to me asking to buy cigarettes. I said, "Absolutely, show me your ID." They stuttered and walked away.
(2) A young teenager tried to buy spray paint, but you had to be 18. Their parent (that was apparently waiting in the car) came in the store to buy it for them. Their parent was upset that they had to buy it for them.
(3) An 8-year old tried to buy ammo for a BB gun with no parent anywhere in the store. He was literally 8, according to him. I called my supervisor over, who then took the kid to customer service and called the police. There was no parent around--apparently, from what I remember, the kid's parents dropped him off and then went to a store next door. Idiotic if you ask me.
(4) Young teenagers tried to buy paintballs.
(5) On many, many occasions, young teenagers tried to buy adult movies/games/music.
(6) On one occasion, someone came up with a box of real ammo, which was not allowed to be purchased through the front cashiers. It had to be back in the sporting goods section. The person working that section was relieved of his duties, since he didn't follow protocol.

Regulations can absolutely be about safety. For example, regulations require seatbelts in cars. It depends on how the framework of the regulations are set up (and which constituent group Congress is pandering to). If none have gun safety now, perhaps they should in the future. How? I don't know, I've never thought about it in much detail.

No, Americans likely won't stand up and give their guns away. I do believe some may. But not all.
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#65 Old 02-11-2016, 10:00 AM
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Who said anything about banning toasters? My questions about banning items are meant to sound absurd because it is absurd -but living in the UK, you know that. After all, where you live they are having people turn in pointy kitchen knives.

http://www.snopes.com/2015/06/22/sav...er-your-knife/




Notice, the researchers admit many attacks are impulsive and prompted by drugs or alcohol. It's as if the UK is resigned to the idea that individuals cannot be expected to exercise a modicum of self-control. It sounds like the UK is becoming a daycare center for drunk teenagers.
I prefer to live in a place where citizens are trusted with kitchen knives that have sharp blades and pointy ends -you don't. I'm ok with that. You should be too.

Slippery slope, indeed.
That's an amusing article. Here's the reality.

The following knives are illegal to carry in the UK:

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flick knives (also called ‘switchblades’ or ‘automatic knives’) – where the blade is hidden inside the handle and shoots out when a button is pressed

butterfly knives – where the blade is hidden inside a handle that splits in two around it, like wings; the handles swing around the blade to open or close it

disguised knives – eg where the blade is hidden inside a belt buckle or fake mobile phone

gravity knives

sword-sticks

Samurai swords (with some exceptions, including antiques and swords made to traditional methods before 1954)

hand or foot-claws

push daggers

hollow kubotan (cylinder-shaped keychain)

holding spikes

shuriken (also known as ‘death stars’ or ‘throwing stars’)

kusari-gama (sickle attached to a rope, cord or wire)

kyoketsu-shoge (hook-knife attached to a rope, cord or wire)

kusari (weight attached to a rope, cord or wire)
Unless you cut your seitan with a samurai sword, you're ok. 😂

As for citizens being trusted with weapons, clearly they can't be. They use those weapons on themselves and on others. They shoot up movie theatres and elementary schools, kill people in bar fights. Even trained police officers can't be trusted not to use their weapons to shoot unarmed civilians in the back or murder a transgender man when they're supposed to be talking him out of suicide! No thanks, I prefer it here.
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#66 Old 02-11-2016, 10:27 AM
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Notice, the researchers admit many attacks are impulsive and prompted by drugs or alcohol. It's as if the UK is resigned to the idea that individuals cannot be expected to exercise a modicum of self-control. It sounds like the UK is becoming a daycare center for drunk teenagers.
I prefer to live in a place where citizens are trusted with kitchen knives that have sharp blades and pointy ends -you don't. I'm ok with that. You should be too.

Slippery slope, indeed.
I don't know if you can make that claim, especially if you read the whole Snopes piece and the referenced news article.

What the chefs were saying were large, pointy knives were not essential to cooking when short, pointy knives are available. They would support changing the design of large knives. (Apparently they did this in France in the 17th century?) They didn't exactly state to ban all kitchen knives.

For example, when the wife and I got married, we bought a set of kitchen knives. The set came with a knife that is about 1-inch (2.54-cm) in width and probably 8-inches (20.3-cm) in length. We barely ever use it, because it's generally not needed in cooking. If we got rid of the knife, it would have zero effect on our ability to cook.
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#67 Old 02-11-2016, 04:23 PM
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I don't like guns, and I do not advocate gun ownership at all. Guns kill. Just want to make that clear first.

My conflict is that police and military people would still be allowed to have and use guns while their citizens are stripped of them, thereby giving authority figures even more power that is too often abused (as someone mentioned above). Why not strip governments and police of guns as well? In an ideal world, guns would not exist. For now, we are far from an ideal world. I would advocate that guns be banned from EVERYONE, not just civilians. Of course, that will never happen. At least there should be stricter laws about when authority figures can properly use them. I do understand that these authority figures put their lives on the line for their line of work. And I appreciate that risk and difficulty. But they should also be screened more thoroughly before being allowed to handle guns.
Explain why you don't think cops should have guns. Out of curiosity, is it because they shoot and kill so many people? I always thought the trigger happy "shoot first" response from American cops was from the fear that anyone and everyone in that country could be armed, so they shoot first to defend themselves since any person could have a gun. Where I live, all cops have guns, but they hardly ever use them, since they know basically no people will be armed with a gun here. It makes me feel safe to see that cops carry guns but no one else. I think in the past like, 5 years off the top of my head I can think of maybe one incident where a cop shot a person, and that's because they were coming at them with a knife.

What's the point of taking guns away from police? I just don't get it. They are the only people who should have them. When everyone has guns, obviously cops are going to shoot more freely because they are scared for their life. But when basically no one has guns, they think of other ways to disarm people and a gun is only a true last resort measure.
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#68 Old 02-11-2016, 06:03 PM
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Explain why you don't think cops should have guns. Out of curiosity, is it because they shoot and kill so many people? I always thought the trigger happy "shoot first" response from American cops was from the fear that anyone and everyone in that country could be armed, so they shoot first to defend themselves since any person could have a gun. Where I live, all cops have guns, but they hardly ever use them, since they know basically no people will be armed with a gun here. It makes me feel safe to see that cops carry guns but no one else. I think in the past like, 5 years off the top of my head I can think of maybe one incident where a cop shot a person, and that's because they were coming at them with a knife.

What's the point of taking guns away from police? I just don't get it. They are the only people who should have them. When everyone has guns, obviously cops are going to shoot more freely because they are scared for their life. But when basically no one has guns, they think of other ways to disarm people and a gun is only a true last resort measure.
Guns have gotten wayyyyyy out of control here! Cops do have every reason to worry about getting shot, it's just too bad they also stereotype, which can be unfortunately understandable in some places.
The more guns, the more guns. We had a man taking up cops time making a point about his right to carry a rifle in the city-
http://www.cleveland.com/akron/index...monitorin.html
Idiots. Sometimes I worry more about the gun nuts than criminals
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#69 Old 02-11-2016, 07:13 PM
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Explain why you don't think cops should have guns. Out of curiosity, is it because they shoot and kill so many people? I always thought the trigger happy "shoot first" response from American cops was from the fear that anyone and everyone in that country could be armed, so they shoot first to defend themselves since any person could have a gun. Where I live, all cops have guns, but they hardly ever use them, since they know basically no people will be armed with a gun here. It makes me feel safe to see that cops carry guns but no one else. I think in the past like, 5 years off the top of my head I can think of maybe one incident where a cop shot a person, and that's because they were coming at them with a knife.

What's the point of taking guns away from police? I just don't get it. They are the only people who should have them. When everyone has guns, obviously cops are going to shoot more freely because they are scared for their life. But when basically no one has guns, they think of other ways to disarm people and a gun is only a true last resort measure.
Police are humans liked anyone else. They take their frustrations out on their wives (and husbands), on common criminals, on themselves. Most are decent people, but some use the power of having a gun to get others to do things, and sometimes they use guns to kill. They are not always punished harshly for it, and sometimes they get away with it altogether.

If citizens are so compliant that guns are not needed, why would cops need them then? Why not just get rid of them?

Guns have also been used by police to forcibly rape women. Here is just one example:

http://www.cnn.com/2015/12/11/us/okl...zclaw-verdict/
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#70 Old 02-11-2016, 07:55 PM
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I guess if the police can't be trusted, then I understand why you wouldn't want them to have guns. It's sad though, people should be able to trust the police, it's bad that in some countries you can't do that. I'm glad I live in one of the countries where you can.
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#71 Old 02-14-2016, 09:14 PM
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As for banning guns, any tips on how to get the gang bangers, robbers, psychopaths to turn in theirs? If banning things worked, I wouldn't be able to drive a few miles to find a prostitute and illegal drugs.
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#72 Old 02-14-2016, 10:20 PM
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Reality check!

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The symbol of the race ought to be a human being carrying an ax, for every human being has one concealed about him somewhere, and is always seeking the opportunity to grind it.
- Mark Twain, a Biography
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#73 Old 02-14-2016, 10:48 PM
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That's exactly the type of pro gun argument I've come to expect. The reality is the guns make you unsafe. If you look at the statistics it's obvious.

edit------
As to tips, ask pretty much any other english speaking country or japan. They've done it and I am sure they'd be happy to help.
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#74 Old 02-15-2016, 12:21 AM
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Accidental Gun deaths are actually quite low at less than 1000 per year. With 300,000,000 guns in circulation that's a fantastic safety record. Accidental drowning in swimming pools kill more people than accidental gun deaths.

Intentional acts such as committing suicide or murder have nothing to do with gun safety. Likewise intentionally drowning someone or one's self in a swimming pool has nothing to do with water safety.
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#75 Old 02-15-2016, 02:46 AM
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I don't believe guns should be taken away. My uncle who lives in the country has a safe of guns and is one of the most responsible people I've met with concerning them. When living out there if someone were to break into your home and harm your family or yourself there are no neighbors to hear you scream, to hear the ruckus and struggle like in an urban area. A gun can help with your defense out there. But do I see a reason for my neighbor in the city to have a collection of submachine guns and automatic rifles? No. And I see people that shoot targets for sport and challenge are no different than those that use bows and arrows or throwing knives etc. It's a hobby and a skill that many have no intention of harming anything with. Saying guns kill is like saying pencils kill, or pipes, nail guns, fire axes, rope. No they are just tools. People kill. With whatever tool they wish whether it's a fork, shovel, gun etc. I believe we need tighter gun control. People should be psychologically evaluated before owning firearms simply on the fact they have the ability to cause more harm. They shouldn't be out lawed but should have far tighter control. I don't believe it should be every ones right to bear arms considering lots of people have mental health and psychological issues.

These are just my flawed opinions. I don't own any guns and never wish to especially with my history of mental health problems. But at what point do we ban something just because it is dangerous. Lots of things get banned simply because people accidently hurt themselves with it, or purposefully hurt others. Now I can think of a lot of ways to cause myself harm or others without guns or knives. An individual who really wants to cause harm can do it with a lot of things. So do we just ban everything that is dangerous(which is a lot of stuff) or accept that humans are the cause not the tools. Just my ramblings.

Perhaps these videos will communicate what I'm thinking better. These videos are made by an interesting youtuber who does many educational videos on medieval weaponry/martial arts. And he happens to be vegetarian. I know my opinion is unpopular here. I'm not saying I'm right or anyone is wrong. Just stating my views.

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#76 Old 02-15-2016, 05:24 AM
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Accidental Gun deaths are actually quite low at less than 1000 per year. With 300,000,000 guns in circulation that's a fantastic safety record. Accidental drowning in swimming pools kill more people than accidental gun deaths.

Intentional acts such as committing suicide or murder have nothing to do with gun safety. Likewise intentionally drowning someone or one's self in a swimming pool has nothing to do with water safety.
Intentional gun deaths have everything to do with gun safety. Statistics show that the mere presence of a gun in a home greatly increases the chances of domestic disagreements turning fatal, of suicide attempts succeeding, of arguments resulting in death. An angry, frightened person with access to a gun can do much more-- and much more serious-- damage than an angry, frightened person without access to a gun. The ease with which a shooter can fatally injure himself or others in a matter of minutes or even seconds, without time to properly consider the consequences, is a huge safety concern. To argue on behalf of gun ownership when guns are the clear cause of so many deaths is selfish and irresponsible.
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Reality check!

Seriously, an Obama meme? THAT'S your argument?
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As for banning guns, any tips on how to get the gang bangers, robbers, psychopaths to turn in theirs? If banning things worked, I wouldn't be able to drive a few miles to find a prostitute and illegal drugs.
I am sick to death of this myth. There are no good guys and bad guys. There are just people-- flawed, emotional, reactive people who sometimes make mistakes, exercise poor judgement, experience paranoia, become overly stressed, and act without thought. If you own a gun, YOU are the "bad guy with a gun." YOU are the person others will be calling a psychopath when you fatally shoot someone who cuts you off in traffic, or murder your wife in the heat of an argument, or shoot a kid for stealing your lawn ornaments because you're convinced he's casing your house for a robbery.

If you want tips, ask the government here in the UK. We have just as high a percentage of "gang bangers, robbers, and psychopaths" here as in the US, with similar crime levels once adjusted for population, but we have considerably fewer homicides. You're about four times more likely to be murdered in the US than in the UK, and you're a whopping 39 times more likely to be fatally shot,.so clearly the gun laws are keeping guns out of the hands of violent criminals.
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#77 Old 02-15-2016, 05:46 AM
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Welp, I think moving to England was a good decision for you, NoWhey.
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#78 Old 02-15-2016, 05:47 AM
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The Second Amendment of the United States Constitution reads: "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

"The Supreme Court of the United States has ruled that the right belongs to individuals,[5][6] while also ruling that the right is not unlimited and does not prohibit all regulation of either firearms or similar devices.[7] State and local governments are limited to the same extent as the federal government from infringing this right per the incorporation of the Bill of Rights." Per wiki.
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#79 Old 02-15-2016, 05:59 AM
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Welp, I think moving to England was a good decision for you, NoWhey.
You bet it was! I can't articulate the relief I feel.
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#80 Old 02-15-2016, 08:39 AM
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Intentional gun deaths have everything to do with gun safety. Statistics show that the mere presence of a gun in a home greatly increases the chances of domestic disagreements turning fatal, of suicide attempts succeeding, of arguments resulting in death. An angry, frightened person with access to a gun can do much more-- and much more serious-- damage than an angry, frightened person without access to a gun. The ease with which a shooter can fatally injure himself or others in a matter of minutes or even seconds, without time to properly consider the consequences, is a huge safety concern. To argue on behalf of gun ownership when guns are the clear cause of so many deaths is selfish and irresponsible.

Seriously, an Obama meme? THAT'S your argument?
The meme illustrates a salient point, to wit, guns are apparently very safe and here in this photo you can see that they are.

You can insist that intentional acts of murder and suicide have everything to do with gun safety, it's your right to do so. I disagree, as is my right.

Guns are not the cause of suicide or murder, only the method. <------------ that is an argument you cannot assail with a logical rebuttal.
Saying "(x) people committed suicide with a gun" is no argument. Rearranging the subject from people to guns doesn't work either. "guns killed (x) people attempting suicide." In both cases it required a person to choose and act before the gun entered the equation. Guns are not actors, they are props.

Ask Japan how the absence of guns effects their suicide rate. For those unaware, Japan has a freakishly high rate of suicide and a virtual total ban on firearms. Must be those pointy knives causing it eh?

Have a look at your own words..
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Statistics show that the mere presence of a gun in a home greatly increases the chances of domestic disagreements turning fatal, of suicide attempts succeeding
The "presence of a gun"? Really? are they magical? I can assure you, a person actually has to use a gun for it to be fatal. The mere presence has no effect. There are guns in my house right now -not causing me or my wife any deleterious effects. How can this be?

"Suicide attempts." One must choose and act before picking up a gun to harm one's self. The gun cannot help you with that decision. It's made of iron and plastic. It has no effect on the human mind at all.
Your argument does more harm to suicide prevention than any other. It ignores the person contemplating the suicide.
Feeling like suicide? Here let me take that gun away and everything will be all right. It's absurd.
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#81 Old 02-15-2016, 09:10 AM
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You make it sound like we think guns float around looking for people to kill by themselves. To me, you're saying "oh this meat grinder we put in the sidewalk? It's an object, it can't hurt anyone".

Anyways we're never going to agree, and since it's not my country it really doesn't matter. I just find it sad that you guys are killing eachother and nobody seems to care.
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#82 Old 02-15-2016, 09:14 AM
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The meme illustrates a salient point, to wit, guns are apparently very safe and here in this photo you can see that they are.
I can see that guns are safe from a picture of the POTUS and the secret service with the word "gun" written over it numerous times? How is this in any way relevant to a conversation on suicide, homicide, unintentional shooting, and domestic violence?

Quote:
Guns are not the cause of suicide or murder, only the method. <------------ that is an argument you cannot assail with a logical rebuttal.
Guns are not simply a method of violence, but an extremely quick and effective method, an extremely lethal method. It is their effectiveness which makes them more dangerous than other weapons. Surely you can acknowledge that it would be more difficult for a child to accidentally strangle her mother with a length of rope, for a teenager to fatally stab his entire class with a kitchen knife, or for a suicidal individual to kill himself with a razor than with a gun. Shooting causes the most irreparable damage to a the largest number of people in the shortest period of time compared to other commonly used weapons. Can you imagine arguing on behalf of grenade or pipe bomb ownership that these are only methods, not causes, of destruction?

Quote:
The "presence of a gun"? Really? are they magical? I can assure you, a person actually has to use a gun for it to be fatal. The mere presence has no effect. There are guns in my house right now -not causing me or my wife any deleterious effects. How can this be?
I can only assume that you're being purposefully obtuse. No, I am not suggesting that guns magically animate themselves and kill people. I am not suggesting anything. It is a verifiable fact that those living in homes with guns are more likely to die than those without guns. (This is just one study of many: http://m.aje.oxfordjournals.org/content/160/10/929.full). The reasons for this should be fairly obvious, and have nothing to do with magic: if a gun is close at hand, then the means of elevating a situation from a domestic dispute to a fatal encounter is at one's fingertips. A fleeting moment of anger, fear, or self-hatred can be acted upon immediately and irreparably, with very little time to reconsider.

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It's made of iron and plastic. It has no effect on the human mind at all.
There is compelling evidence to suggest otherwise. People have been observed to behave more aggressively when in possession of a weapon. The sense of power that a gun imparts upon its owner seems to have a significant effect on behaviour.

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2...weapons-effect

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Feeling like suicide? Here let me take that gun away and everything will be all right. It's absurd.
I agree. That is an absurd thing to say. Good thing I didn't make that argument, isn't it?
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#83 Old 02-15-2016, 10:24 AM
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Originally Posted by no whey jose View Post
I can see that guns are safe from a picture of the POTUS and the secret service with the word "gun" written over it numerous times? How is this in any way relevant to a conversation on suicide, homicide, unintentional shooting, and domestic violence?
Actually, the topic is about the homicide rate in the US. Those secret service guys in the photo have guns to prevent homicide. Since most Americans don't have a trained squad guarding them and their families, the meme points out the hypocrisy of barking out GUN LAWS! GUN LAWS! while surrounded by armed guards.
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#84 Old 02-15-2016, 10:34 AM
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Originally Posted by LedBoots View Post
Actually, the topic is about the homicide rate in the US. Those secret service guys in the photo have guns to prevent homicide. Since most Americans don't have a trained squad guarding them and their families, the meme points out the hypocrisy of barking out GUN LAWS! GUN LAWS! while surrounded by armed guards.
I've never met an advocate of gun control who travels with a trained squad of gunmen, so this critique is clearly only applicable to the President. In any case, I'm fairly certain that (most) gun control proponents don't take issue with gun ownership within the secret service. That's an extremely specific demographic and is, again, completely irrelevant to the conversation.
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#85 Old 02-15-2016, 01:06 PM
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Originally Posted by no whey jose View Post
I've never met an advocate of gun control who travels with a trained squad of gunmen, so this critique is clearly only applicable to the President. In any case, I'm fairly certain that (most) gun control proponents don't take issue with gun ownership within the secret service. That's an extremely specific demographic and is, again, completely irrelevant to the conversation.
Shannon Watts -founder of Moms Demand Action hires armed guards for all of her public speaking engagements.

Michael Bloomberg Former Mayor of New York and Founder of Everytown for Gun Safety famously walks the city with an armed security detail.

Joe Biden, Hillary Clinton, Chuck Schumer -all outspoken 'gun control' maintain armed security 24 hours a day.

Amy Schumer, Chuck Schumer's Niece and an outspoken 'gun control' activist hired armed guards for the premier of her movie "Trainwreck"

Armed guards were present for the Oscars and the Emmy awards ceremonies.

Rosie O'donnel has an armed guard -also an outspoken 'gun control' advocate.

Dianne Feinstein- Senator from California has armed guards and also owns guns herself. She has worked for years to outlaw and confiscate firearms.

Mark Kelly and Gabby Giffords -'Gun control' activists. have armed guards and own guns.

Shania Twain- country singer and Board member and signer of Hangun Control INC.' charter to change its name to Brady Center. Owns guns and has full time armed security.

Sarah Brady- Wife of James Brady and founder of Handgun Control INC and the Brady Center. Owns guns and purchased guns for her children. Has a full time armed security detail at her home.

Michael Moore -Anti-gun film maker has an armed guard who happened to get himself arrested for illegally carrying a weapon.

Hypocrites all.
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The symbol of the race ought to be a human being carrying an ax, for every human being has one concealed about him somewhere, and is always seeking the opportunity to grind it.
- Mark Twain, a Biography
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#86 Old 02-15-2016, 09:00 PM
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I am sick to death of this myth. There are no good guys and bad guys. There are just people-- flawed, emotional, reactive people who sometimes make mistakes, exercise poor judgement, experience paranoia, become overly stressed, and act without thought. If you own a gun, YOU are the "bad guy with a gun." YOU are the person others will be calling a psychopath when you fatally shoot someone who cuts you off in traffic, or murder your wife in the heat of an argument, or shoot a kid for stealing your lawn ornaments because you're convinced he's casing your house for a robbery.

If you want tips, ask the government here in the UK. We have just as high a percentage of "gang bangers, robbers, and psychopaths" here as in the US, with similar crime levels once adjusted for population, but we have considerably fewer homicides. You're about four times more likely to be murdered in the US than in the UK, and you're a whopping 39 times more likely to be fatally shot,.so clearly the gun laws are keeping guns out of the hands of violent criminals.
Project your own fears on others much? I've been cut off in traffic plenty of times, had plenty of heated arguments, even had an employer feed us lies for months and then cut our entire department without warning. I have never even fantasized about killing said offenders, though I must admit I did hope that my former employer would lose her job one day. I guess I'm more mentally stable than I realized.

And I don't want to ask the government in the UK about anything. Along with guns, they have banned one of my dogs, so don't really trust their judgment.

I'm as glad to be in the US as you are to be in the UK.
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#87 Old 02-16-2016, 03:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Lipps View Post
Shannon Watts -founder of Moms Demand Action hires armed guards for all of her public speaking engagements.

Michael Bloomberg Former Mayor of New York and Founder of Everytown for Gun Safety famously walks the city with an armed security detail.

Joe Biden, Hillary Clinton, Chuck Schumer -all outspoken 'gun control' maintain armed security 24 hours a day.

Amy Schumer, Chuck Schumer's Niece and an outspoken 'gun control' activist hired armed guards for the premier of her movie "Trainwreck"

Armed guards were present for the Oscars and the Emmy awards ceremonies.

Rosie O'donnel has an armed guard -also an outspoken 'gun control' advocate.

Dianne Feinstein- Senator from California has armed guards and also owns guns herself. She has worked for years to outlaw and confiscate firearms.

Mark Kelly and Gabby Giffords -'Gun control' activists. have armed guards and own guns.

Shania Twain- country singer and Board member and signer of Hangun Control INC.' charter to change its name to Brady Center. Owns guns and has full time armed security.

Sarah Brady- Wife of James Brady and founder of Handgun Control INC and the Brady Center. Owns guns and purchased guns for her children. Has a full time armed security detail at her home.

Michael Moore -Anti-gun film maker has an armed guard who happened to get himself arrested for illegally carrying a weapon.

Hypocrites all.
These are famous people, clearly exceptional cases which aren't representative of your average gun control advocate-- or are you suggesting that the majority of gun control advocates use guns? That guns must be inherently safe became Amy Schumer uses them...? What point are you trying to make?

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Originally Posted by Wolfie View Post
Project your own fears on others much? I've been cut off in traffic plenty of times, had plenty of heated arguments, even had an employer feed us lies for months and then cut our entire department without warning. I have never even fantasized about killing said offenders, though I must admit I did hope that my former employer would lose her job one day. I guess I'm more mentally stable than I realized.
These aren't my fears. This is reality. You're erroneously applying your personal experiences to the rest of the population--."I haven't used my guns against myself or others in anger or fear (yet), so nobody else would"-- when, clearly, others do. It's well documented that others do. It's a fact, not my opinion, that an American citizen with a gun in the home is more likely to die by homicide than one without a gun. It is a fact, not my opinion, that a gun owned by an American citizen is more likely to be used in an unlawful assault than in self-defence. You can interpret these facts as you wish. It's obvious how I interpret them.

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And I don't want to ask the government in the UK about anything. Along with guns, they have banned one of my dogs, so don't really trust their judgment.

I'm as glad to be in the US as you are to be in the UK.
Yup, sounds totally reasonable and relevant. Enjoy your stay! 👍
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#88 Old 05-12-2016, 08:01 PM
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Actually, the statistics show that an American gun owner is far more likely to use his gun against himself, his loved ones, or an innocent victim than against a criminal.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...nt-people-die/
Totally agree. The strongest predictor of suicide is whether or not someone has a gun in the home.

Then there's this too: gun owners leaving loaded guns around where toddlers can get them and use them. Toddlers shoot people at least once a week.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...ple-this-year/

To put that in perspective, "tip over accidents" (where TVs, dressers, and large furniture falls over on children) occur less frequently AND there's a national safety campaign about tip over accidents. But the US government has done so much to protect gun manufacturers that the CDC isn't even allowed to collect data on gun accidents.

Here's the tip over campaign: http://www.anchorit.gov/

Then there's this, too: Americans routinely try to bring loaded guns onto planes.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/travel...guns/83490678/


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Originally Posted by silva View Post
Then there was Travon Martin, a 12 year old with a BB gun. Why was there so much hatred on the family for 'allowing' him to have a look alike gun and not fury over kids playing with guns to begin with?
Trayvon Martin was unarmed. No toy gun, no BB gun, nothing. All he had was an Arizona Iced Tea and skittles. He was killed by George Zimmerman who used "stand your ground" law to argue that his fear of Trayvon justfied his lethal use of a firearm. The stand your ground laws are not federal, they are state by state and most states don't have them.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trayvon_Martin

You are thinking of Tamir Rice. He was the 12 year old with a toy gun in a park. He was shot by police in less than 2 seconds.
Police then arrested his sister when she tried to help. And the city sent the ambulance bill to Tamir's mom.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Tamir_Rice
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