Correlation between Veg*n and Atheism/Agnosticism? - Page 3 - VeggieBoards
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#61 Old 12-15-2015, 10:39 PM
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No. The Garden of Eden was originally vegan in Genesis, and the description of paradise in Isaiah is either vegetarian or vegan (the whole bit about the lion lying down with the lamb, children playing with vipers, no bloodshed in the peaceable Kingdom)...I think the problem is that in the United States mainstream "political" far right Christianity is composed mainly of people who are also American traditionalists, and their meat consumption has more to do with that than Christianity. 7th Day Adventists are largely vegetarian or vegan. My favorite musician, Lana del Rey, is both openly vegetarian and a believer in God, and she was raised Roman Catholic.

In Israel, veganism is being called "the new kosher" by some Jews. It's become so popular it's spread to the Israeli army.

I'm a Christian vegetarian.
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#62 Old 12-15-2015, 10:58 PM
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I don't think that's why it's been labelled that. Most wouldn't put in on faith as they would staunch ethics. I would say many average folks would put veganism as a cult versus vegetarianism which is the hippy dippy version.
I don't know that veganism is always faith based, but in any event, some vegans strike me as religious not because of a god, but because their morality is so strict they believe they or other people should die before using even the minimal amount of animal products. That is a perfect mirror of some fundamentalist Christians who refuse blood transfusions or invasive surgical medical care.

Not bashing, just observing. It's their right to believe that way, I'm a vegetarian transitioning to vegan, and I think being vegetarian or cruelty free glorifies God because of all of ethical reasons for humanity and Creation. However, I'm not sure I'd ever become so extreme in my veganism that I thought myself or others should die.
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#63 Old 12-15-2015, 11:18 PM
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I think because as a vegan, I learned the truth behind where meat came from. There are lies surrounding the treatment of animals.
When I learned about world religions, and the violence and wars surrounding them, and the corruption behind it all, it made me question organized religion.
Sometimes you wonder if any of it is real. You were only made aware of it because that's how you were raised, once you grow up and come to your own conclusions, you then decide whether or not you choose to believe something.
Um, there have been several athiest genocidal dictators - Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot - so please drop this adolescent assumption that religion causes violence. Religion is just an excuse some people use for their own bloodlust.
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#64 Old 12-17-2015, 01:04 PM
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Um, there have been several athiest genocidal dictators - Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot - so please drop this adolescent assumption that religion causes violence. Religion is just an excuse some people use for their own bloodlust.
Pol Pot was likely a Buddhist. Stalin and Mao didn't cause violence in the name of atheism. Many religious dictators did in the name of their faith. Do you really think religion doesn't ever push people to the point of committing crimes? You think suicide bombers would really take out that many people without the promise of virgins in heaven? In America, religion has this bubble around it where it's offensive to criticize aspects of it, but that's ridiculous. Bush himself said God told him the war was the right thing to do. A lot of wars are started in the name of religion. Religion teaches blind faith and obedience. Why is religion not considered a factor when people who are religious go on killing sprees? I mean, when you're white. When a white, Christian man shoots up a Planned Parenthood, Fox News says he's mentally ill or just "defending babies." Yet when a Muslim man shoots a place up, he's a terrorist and motivated by religion. Have you noticed that some religions (like Christianity) get a "free pass" in America?

I think many people do justify their own bigotry and hate with the bible (or other holy books). I see it all the time. Those who are uncomfortable with gay people will often interpret the book as "God said the gays are sinners." But if you're fine with gay people, they'll say "No, God loves everyone. He says not to judge." It goes both ways. Religion can turn people hateful.

And why is it when someone says "I killed these people in the name of God," people try to say that it wasn't a motivation? If someone kills in the name of racism, it isn't questioned.

In the name of religion: http://metro.co.uk/2015/12/15/spit-o...ishop-5566200/

Do you think people would have supported Bush if he had said "My dog told me to invade Iraq?"

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...q-6262644.html




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#65 Old 12-17-2015, 03:08 PM
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Well said danakscully64.

There was also no need for the previous poster to be so insulting with the "adolescent assumption" comment.


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#66 Old 12-17-2015, 06:34 PM
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Well said danakscully64.

There was also no need for the previous poster to be so insulting with the "adolescent assumption" comment.


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Oh no, she used the adjective "adolescent" to describe an assumption, how insulting.

Leedsveg, allow me to quote the Compost Heap sticky for you. "When posting in The Compost Heap please be aware that discussions may become heated. If you are overly sensitive you may want to avoid this area." Certainly someone that feels Thalassa's comments are insulting fits that description.
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#67 Old 12-18-2015, 01:07 AM
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Oh no, she used the adjective "adolescent" to describe an assumption, how insulting.

Leedsveg, allow me to quote the Compost Heap sticky for you. "When posting in The Compost Heap please be aware that discussions may become heated. If you are overly sensitive you may want to avoid this area." Certainly someone that feels Thalassa's comments are insulting fits that description.
Someone's a grumpy bunny today.
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#68 Old 12-18-2015, 06:37 AM
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Someone's a grumpy bunny today.
Maybe s/he ate after midnight or got wet D:
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#69 Old 12-18-2015, 11:20 AM
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Veganism is an ethical stance. Ethics, like all philosophy, is rational and logical. Faith implies a belief in something irrational, doesn't it?
No, it doesn't.
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#70 Old 12-18-2015, 12:11 PM
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Faith would be more implying the belief in something with little or no evidence, rather than something irrational.....or maybe something which has little or no evidence accepted by mainstream culture, or science.

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#71 Old 12-18-2015, 12:21 PM
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Faith would be more implying the belief in something with little or no evidence, rather than something irrational.....or maybe something which has little or no evidence accepted by mainstream culture, or science.
I want to understand the distinction, but I'm having trouble coming up with an example of something which is rational but which requires faith. It seems to me that it's irrational to believe that something is true when you have no evidence. You could theorize that something is true without being completely sure, you could make an educated guess-- but faith is KNOWING for certain something that you don't and can't know for certain, which doesn't make sense.
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#72 Old 12-18-2015, 12:39 PM
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I think a belief in God is rational........but I haven't met the dude, as far as I'm aware, so it remains on the level of faith I suppose.

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#73 Old 12-18-2015, 12:47 PM
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or maybe I have met him in a way.


I am just like an amoeba to the guy....so it wouldn't be like meeting a person, if I did meet him.


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#74 Old 12-18-2015, 02:25 PM
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Blobbenstein, do you really think God has a gender and should be called a him?

I believe God is a powerful yet genderless entity which permeates the Universe as a force of good.

By being vegetarian I feel the goodness of what I'm doing, not just the subjective goodness, but the overall God force goodness. Conversely when I've seen footage of factory farms I felt the evil, and I know that everyone else here felt that same presence of evil when they saw it too. There's no way that such a perverse, sadistic system could exist on a huge, global scale unless evil is a reality. Whole species of benevolent beings are being systematically tortured, there is no faith needed here to see that evil exists. If you doubt it, then watch some of that footage again. All of us here are vessels of goodness in the struggle against this evil, and I love you all.
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#75 Old 12-18-2015, 02:58 PM
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Originally Posted by AdorableMogwai View Post
Blobbenstein, do you really think God has a gender and should be called a him?
I think there is something mysterious about maleness and femaleness...and the spectrum of that for some people...I am happy to think of God as a male of some sort, but that could be just my projection onto him. I sometimes wonder what God is, and I realise he is beyond my comprehension in a lot of ways..I don't want to call God 'she', or 'it' anyway.

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#76 Old 12-18-2015, 03:14 PM
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Oh no, she used the adjective "adolescent" to describe an assumption, how insulting.

Leedsveg, allow me to quote the Compost Heap sticky for you. "When posting in The Compost Heap please be aware that discussions may become heated. If you are overly sensitive you may want to avoid this area." Certainly someone that feels Thalassa's comments are insulting fits that description.
Hi AdorableMogwai

Perhaps you can clarify things for me? If it wasn't intended as some kind of insult, why do you think that Thalassa4 said that Ukvege had made an "adolescent assumption"? (For the sake of accuracy, you will note that I only directly referred to that one comment, so I'm not really sure why you refer to Thalassa4's "comments"?)

Also by using the term "adolescent assumption" do you think that in an exchange between a Christian and an atheist, this progresses discussion in a positive way?

Good wishes

Leedsveg
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#77 Old 12-18-2015, 03:55 PM
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In the English language, "he" is the default pronoun used when the gender is unknown.
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#78 Old 12-18-2015, 06:10 PM
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That's how the default pronoun was back in the days when women couldn't vote. Things have changed now.

Anyway the God entity's gender is not unknown, it has none. If God did have a gender, as you imply, that would mean God could have sex and reproduce. A ridiculous concept!

Good wishes back to you Leedsveg and everyone else.
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#79 Old 12-19-2015, 12:31 AM
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Good wishes back to you Leedsveg and everyone else.
Many thanks AM.
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#80 Old 12-19-2015, 02:40 AM
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If God did have a gender, as you imply, that would mean God could have sex and reproduce. A ridiculous concept!
I take similar issue with the idea that God has a physical body, particularly a human-like physical body. I was talking to some (very nice, charming) Mormon missionaries who came to my door about how they believe that God has a complete human body, just "perfect." This is problematic on so many levels: what's a "perfect" body, for one? What colour hair does a perfect body have? Does it have a spleen, a liver, an appendix, a colon, an anus? Why would God need any of these things which are clearly adaptations for life on this particular planet? It's obvious why humans would want to describe God (or Gods) as humanlike or at least animalistic-- it's what we know, it's familiar to us-- but the characteristics we notice in ourselves and in the other species on this planet exist BECAUSE we're on this planet. We evolved to better survive in the specific environment of Earth, so attributing these characteristics-- even social characteristics like empathy and playfulness-- to a supernatural entity who exists independently of Earth and who doesn't subscribe to the laws of physics is nonsensical.

This is what I mean when I say that faith is irrational. The only way that a belief in God makes sense to me is to say something similar to what @AdorableMogwai said (leaving out the bits about "good" and "evil," which only make sense in the context of human society): God is the name we give to the forces which govern the universe. When we worship God, we express the awe, gratitude, wonder, and terror that we feel as sentient creatures living in this spectacular universe. I can get behind that 100%. What I CAN'T accept is that anyone could really, truly believe that God is a perfect man who created us in his image, who feels jealousy and anger, who demands from us bizarre rituals which vary with time (blood sacrifices, massacres, cutting or not cutting our hair, the utterance of certain words, the wearing of certain fabrics), who sees us and judges us and who can grant us an eternal afterlife in heaven or doom us to burn in the literal fires of hell with actual demons. I'm sorry, but that's clearly a fairy tale, a story invented by humans. It has all the hallmarks of human stories and it describes things which are impossible and unlikely. I don't understand how a rational person with an interest in truth could have faith that those stories are real in any sense other than the symbolic.
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#81 Old 12-19-2015, 07:02 AM
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That's how the default pronoun was back in the days when women couldn't vote. Things have changed now.

Anyway the God entity's gender is not unknown, it has none. If God did have a gender, as you imply, that would mean God could have sex and reproduce. A ridiculous concept!

what about transgender men? Can they reproduce?

I think gender isn't just about the ability to reproduce...as I said, I think it might be a mysterious thing of which reproductive capability is only one thing.

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#82 Old 12-19-2015, 08:26 AM
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what about transgender men? Can they reproduce?
Of course they can. Anyone with operational reproductive organs can reproduce.
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#83 Old 12-19-2015, 08:29 AM
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Of course they can. Anyone with operational reproductive organs can reproduce.
has that been done yet though? Transplanted male reproductive organs?

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#84 Old 12-19-2015, 08:42 AM
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Have you ever seen the South Park episode about Mormonism? It's one of the better South Park episodes I've seen, and tells the actual story of what they believe. A man named Joseph Smith said that an angel named Moroni came down to show him where some ancient golden plates were buried of a lost American civilization, and they were written in a language only he could understand and translate. It's really ridiculous.

I don't believe in religions like Mormonism but I do believe in good and evil. If you don't believe in evil watch the ISIS video where they burn the Jordanian pilot alive in a cage. I challenge anyone to watch that video and not believe in evil afterwards. I watched that after it came out, I originally didn't want to but I kept seeing news stories about it, about how Fox news showed it, and my curiosity got the better of me because I just wanted to see what happened. Big mistake, I wasn't able to sleep that night because of it and the images still haunt me to this day. That video and what happened was evil, when you watch it you can feel the evil as an objective force, just like with the factory farm footage.
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#85 Old 12-19-2015, 09:07 AM
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has that been done yet though? Transplanted male reproductive organs?
Not to my knowledge, no. I meant that their female reproductive organs, if operational, could still carry and birth a baby if they wanted to go that route. Wasn't there a famous case of a transgender man doing just that? He was billed as the world's first pregnant man on US talk shows, if I remember right.

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Have you ever seen the South Park episode about Mormonism? It's one of the better South Park episodes I've seen, and tells the actual story of what they believe.
"Dumb dumb dumb dumb dumb!" 😂 I love that episode, and I also have a strange affinity for Mormons for the reasons highlighted in that episode: they're so polite, clean cut, and pleasant. I appreciate their focus on family and healthy living, but yeah-- some of their doctrine is utterly insane (and racist and misogynistic.)

We disagree on the existence of good and evil outside of the human realm. I don't believe that the fact that humans can commit atrocities speaks to the existence of evil as a supernatural force, no matter how much we might "feel" that way. Our brains are awash with chemicals which make us feel all sorts of things, including overwhelmingly positive or negative sensations which can seem bigger than ourselves.
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#86 Old 12-20-2015, 11:14 AM
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I don't believe in religions like Mormonism but I do believe in good and evil. If you don't believe in evil watch the ISIS video where they burn the Jordanian pilot alive in a cage. I challenge anyone to watch that video and not believe in evil afterwards. I watched that after it came out, I originally didn't want to but I kept seeing news stories about it, about how Fox news showed it, and my curiosity got the better of me because I just wanted to see what happened. Big mistake, I wasn't able to sleep that night because of it and the images still haunt me to this day. That video and what happened was evil, when you watch it you can feel the evil as an objective force, just like with the factory farm footage.
Hi Adorable Mogwai.

I've been trying to come up with a response to your post since yesterday but I'm just not able to translate my thoughts into adequate words. This must be the most depressing thing I've read on VB in my 4 years of membership.

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