Correlation between Veg*n and Atheism/Agnosticism? - Page 2 - VeggieBoards
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#31 Old 10-14-2015, 06:04 PM
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Are you familiar with LDSVeg? I know nothing about them other than that they have a website, but you might find it interesting. http://www.ldsveg.org/index.htm
I was not! I will definitely give it a check, thank you.

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I will insofar as they can make the distinction between "got me thinking" and "convinced me".

Hitler is a great example of why you shouldn't be a racist, but I wouldn't "credit" him for that. Regardless, I was just making a general response for clarification. Bldudas, who I was responding to, didn't make it clear either way.
The reasons people choose to make the life decisions that they do are through individual and personal revelations, and are generally a cultivation of environment, convictions, circumstance and opportunity.

The Hitler comparison is odd; for it to make sense in the argument you're trying to make, you need the assumption that Bldudas is only crediting the commandments as the reasons for why he/she chose to abstain from animal products. They never did. They credited a specific moment and several factors, but not religion or commandments alone.

MAJOR afterthought edit: I'm apparently going blind with middle age; looks like Bldudas did indeed go to vegetarianism as an interpretation of the commandments, and then went vegan at the point they mentioned. Whoops. My bad. So yes, your Hitler argument makes sense.

I just dropped in to see what condition my condition was in.

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#32 Old 10-17-2015, 05:17 PM
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I read through this and would like to see where these stats are coming from. India has a huge population and three of the major religions encourage vegitarian eating. Buddhism hinduism and Janism (mandatory in the last one). In a lot of cases were looking at generations upon generations of vegans in these areas the reason being primarily religious.
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#33 Old 10-17-2015, 07:08 PM
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I was agnostic before going vegetarian. Now I am atheist.
interesting. i did the opposite, except for veganism.

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#34 Old 10-18-2015, 08:26 AM
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I'm atheist and vegan but I don't really see a correlation. I'm a member of some atheist groups on Facebook and many of them make fun and laugh at vegans/vegetarians and use the same arguments like we are top of the food chain, humans are meant to eat meat, our ancestors ate meat etc. I have even seen some atheists say that vegans are like a a religion/cult.
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#35 Old 10-18-2015, 01:50 PM
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I have even seen some atheists say that vegans are like a a religion/cult.
I would agree that, to some extent, veganism is faith based.
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#36 Old 10-18-2015, 02:07 PM
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I would agree that, to some extent, veganism is faith based.
I don't think that's why it's been labelled that. Most wouldn't put in on faith as they would staunch ethics. I would say many average folks would put veganism as a cult versus vegetarianism which is the hippy dippy version.

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#37 Old 10-18-2015, 03:44 PM
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I don't think that's why it's been labelled that. Most wouldn't put in on faith as they would staunch ethics. I would say many average folks would put veganism as a cult versus vegetarianism which is the hippy dippy version.
I don't necessarily go by what most believe...
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#38 Old 10-18-2015, 07:53 PM
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I don't necessarily go by what most believe...
you're here. true statement. same with me.

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#39 Old 10-18-2015, 08:17 PM
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I think because as a vegan, I learned the truth behind where meat came from. There are lies surrounding the treatment of animals.
When I learned about world religions, and the violence and wars surrounding them, and the corruption behind it all, it made me question organized religion.
Sometimes you wonder if any of it is real. You were only made aware of it because that's how you were raised, once you grow up and come to your own conclusions, you then decide whether or not you choose to believe something.
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#40 Old 10-19-2015, 06:43 AM
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I think because as a vegan, I learned the truth behind where meat came from. There are lies surrounding the treatment of animals.
When I learned about world religions, and the violence and wars surrounding them, and the corruption behind it all, it made me question organized religion.
Sometimes you wonder if any of it is real. You were only made aware of it because that's how you were raised, once you grow up and come to your own conclusions, you then decide whether or not you choose to believe something.
all very true. but, it takes a certain type of person to know the truth and deal rightly with it. or face it. many choose to either remain ignorant or learn the truth and not move forward. i believe it's fear based.
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#41 Old 10-19-2015, 07:49 AM
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i believe it's fear based.
Yeah, humans are pack/herd/flock animals. There's a strong inbuilt instinct that survival depends on fitting in/being accepted as part of the group. It's why advertising is so successful. It's why even we veg*ns hang out on boards like this.
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#42 Old 10-19-2015, 12:23 PM
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I'm also a member on an atheist forum and I don't think too many of them are vegans or vegetarians. I don't think atheism is necessarily associated with an increased compassion for animals.

Edit: Also wanted to say, it's difficult to determine on a board like this, or in the vegan community in general who is and isn't religious. On this forum at least, it rarely ever comes up where someone would directly state their religious (or lack of) beliefs, and sometimes an atheist member may ignore a religious based question or not address the religious part of the question and just answer the diet-related part or a religious member doesn't bring up god/jesus/the bible because theres not a need to.

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#43 Old 10-19-2015, 03:15 PM
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Edit: Also wanted to say, it's difficult to determine on a board like this, or in the vegan community in general who is and isn't religious. On this forum at least, it rarely ever comes up where someone would directly state their religious (or lack of) beliefs, and sometimes an atheist member may ignore a religious based question or not address the religious part of the question and just answer the diet-related part or a religious member doesn't bring up god/jesus/the bible because theres not a need to.
I learned the hard way that people on the internet tend to judge you, rather harshly, if they know your religious affiliation or lack thereof. For instance, someone with a particularly bad experience with the Catholic religion will tend to paint all Catholics with the same brush, as would a religious person not have much tolerance/acceptance of someone who doesn't share their beliefs. It's kind of sad. I'm not going to like/dislike someone whose posts I've been enjoying because I suddenly find out they are Christian, atheist, Buddhist, etc. but I've seen it happen. People suddenly change their opinion of you. At least that's been my experience. Plus I think we are too sensitive when it comes to our belief/non belief system.



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#44 Old 10-19-2015, 08:25 PM
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Yeah, humans are pack/herd/flock animals. There's a strong inbuilt instinct that survival depends on fitting in/being accepted as part of the group. It's why advertising is so successful. It's why even we veg*ns hang out on boards like this.
agreed. i see defiinite trends, particularly on this site.

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#45 Old 10-19-2015, 09:58 PM
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I would agree that, to some extent, veganism is faith based.
How so? I have always thought of it as primarily logical.
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#46 Old 10-19-2015, 11:05 PM
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How so? I have always thought of it as primarily logical.
I'm not trying to answer for leedsveg, but just for myself.

I think that it can be argued that whenever you treat others with respect/compassion/whatever you want to call it in circumstances where doing so confers no concrete benefit to you, but simply because you think it is the right thing to do, that does entail a belief in something beyond the purely pragmatic.
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#47 Old 10-20-2015, 04:01 AM
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I'm not trying to answer for leedsveg, but just for myself.

I think that it can be argued that whenever you treat others with respect/compassion/whatever you want to call it in circumstances where doing so confers no concrete benefit to you, but simply because you think it is the right thing to do, that does entail a belief in something beyond the purely pragmatic.
Veganism is an ethical stance. Ethics, like all philosophy, is rational and logical. Faith implies a belief in something irrational, doesn't it?
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#48 Old 10-20-2015, 06:00 AM
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Veganism is an ethical stance. Ethics, like all philosophy, is rational and logical. Faith implies a belief in something irrational, doesn't it?
I wouldn't say that philosophy is rational and logical and nothing but. For example, all of the philosophers who have purported to prove that God exists (or doesn't exist) have based their "proofs" on certain assumptions.

Ethics, especially ethics that aren't based purely on self interest, likewise are based on underlying assumptions. There are some acts of compassion that run counter to self interest that can be "explained" by the fact that they strengthen the chances of survival of the family/village and are thus rooted in and explained by the individual's interest in having his/her genetic similars survive. There are others that can't be explained in this way, and these, IMO, are based solely on the assumption that there is an underlying "right" or "good" standard of behavior. That assumption is where "belief" comes in.
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#49 Old 10-20-2015, 06:47 AM
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There are others that can't be explained in this way, and these, IMO, are based solely on the assumption that there is an underlying "right" or "good" standard of behavior. That assumption is where "belief" comes in.
I agree with this. I think that you can only go so far with veganism being "logical" eg it's good for the environment, it's good for health etc. But I also believe that it's good for animals because more veganism equates to less animal suffering. Why should animal suffering matter to me? I don't know - it's just a belief I have that it should and it does. I see animals existing for their own "reasons" outside of any benefits they might have for me...

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#50 Old 10-20-2015, 06:55 AM
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I agree with this. I think that you can only go so far with veganism being "logical" eg it's good for the environment, it's good for health etc. But I also believe that it's good for animals because more veganism equates to less animal suffering. Why should animal suffering matter to me? I don't know - it's just a belief I have that it should and it does. I see animals existing for their own "reasons" outside of any benefits they might have for me...
Yes, this.
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#51 Old 10-21-2015, 11:23 AM
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Maybe it's the God says it's okay argument that makes it that way?
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#52 Old 10-21-2015, 11:40 AM
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I've found there seems to be a more prominent correlation between being politically liberal and being an ethical vegan.
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#53 Old 10-24-2015, 11:46 PM
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I think that it can be argued that whenever you treat others with respect/compassion/whatever you want to call it in circumstances where doing so confers no concrete benefit to you, but simply because you think it is the right thing to do, that does entail a belief in something beyond the purely pragmatic.
Sure, but I wouldn't call it 'faith'.

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Originally Posted by no whey jose
Veganism is an ethical stance. Ethics, like all philosophy, is rational and logical.
There are plenty of irrational philosophies out there.

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Originally Posted by leedsveg
I agree with this. I think that you can only go so far with veganism being "logical" eg it's good for the environment, it's good for health etc. But I also believe that it's good for animals because more veganism equates to less animal suffering. Why should animal suffering matter to me? I don't know - it's just a belief I have that it should and it does.
Isn't fairness a logical concept?

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I've found there seems to be a more prominent correlation between being politically liberal and being an ethical vegan.
In other news, the increase of vegetarians seems to relate to the increase in vegans. More at 9.
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#54 Old 10-25-2015, 12:53 AM
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There are plenty of irrational philosophies out there.
The word "philosophy" has two meanings. You're using it here to mean the beliefs and attitudes of an individual or a group of people-- in which case, of course you're right. The philosophy of breatharianism, for example, is highly irrational. I was referring to philosophy as an academic pursuit, philosophy as the study of reality, which is entirely dependent on reasoning, logic, and rational thought. When we debate ethics, we rely on rationality to reach conclusions. That's why we struggle with logical inconsistencies (such as "it's wrong to kill dogs but not pigs"). Morality isn't faith-based, it's reason-based.
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#55 Old 10-25-2015, 01:44 AM
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The word "philosophy" has two meanings. You're using it here to mean the beliefs and attitudes of an individual or a group of people-- in which case, of course you're right. The philosophy of breatharianism, for example, is highly irrational. I was referring to philosophy as an academic pursuit, philosophy as the study of reality, which is entirely dependent on reasoning, logic, and rational thought. When we debate ethics, we rely on rationality to reach conclusions. That's why we struggle with logical inconsistencies (such as "it's wrong to kill dogs but not pigs"). Morality isn't faith-based, it's reason-based.
I get that.
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#56 Old 10-25-2015, 05:09 AM
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Isn't fairness a logical concept?
What's fairness got to do with anything?
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#57 Old 10-25-2015, 06:48 AM
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Atheist, here.

I would say no. Atheism is just a belief that there is no supernatural deity. It's not tied to any moral reasoning directly.

I see a lot of comments about the problems between atheists and religious people, particularly Christians. I'd like to add that there is a subset of Atheists who are actively against religion and theism in general, in part because they believe that belief in a deity is used too often as a tool of oppression. I agree with that view, but I would rather not get into the mud with individual, good believers who have managed to turn their personal faith into a reason to do good and reject the notion that doing harm is what a loving God or Goddess would want. I bring up Anti-Theism only because this IS linked with a progressive view that, at its best, rejects the ideas of violence and oppression entirely, two things that veganism also rejects. I still do not see many anti-theist vegans, because all ideologies have subscribers who take what works for them and not what works for everyone.

Humans are inclined to constructivism. We take what works in what we already know and feel to be true, and then inform it with new information. If your religion is not inherently vegan and you combine it with new ideas you are exposed to down the road about animals and then become vegan, awesome, but you didn't get there from your religion.

For most of us, Atheism is just a rejection of the religion around us, and so it wouldn't get us any closer to veganism than staying religious would. The counter-argument to this would be something along the lines of "rejecting religion makes you automatically more prone to rejecting other ideas." Maybe, but the religious reject plenty of common ideas as well.
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#58 Old 10-25-2015, 08:41 AM
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Many rail against religion, while knowing virtually nothing about it. They repeat what they've overheard, but have no experience of their own. Militarism and ignorance are married to each other. Attacking others is a sure sign of a mind full of holes.
I'm going to have to strongly disagree here. Almost every single Atheist I've ever met is very educated on religion. I've found that I know more about the Bible than most Christians I've met. What made me an atheist was reading the bible. I'm in an atheist group on campus and more than 90% of those in the group were once religious. Many were even raised in a strict household where they did read the book from their religion daily. The President is an ex-Mormon who went to a private Mormon college before applying for his PhD at my university (and did door knocking).

I'm also going to add that a lot of people who are "militant atheists" are angry that they're looked down on and told they're going to hell by others (many shunned by family). In my experience, religious people tend to be more militant towards other religions and non-believers than the other way around. Almost all of my friends (including my best friend and 2nd cousin, who was my MOH at my wedding) are religious. As long as you don't try to shove your beliefs down my throat, I won't criticize your belief.


My view on the topic: I think when you start to question norms of society (like eating meat), you tend to be more open minded in general. You question other aspects and don't blindly follow as frequently.



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#59 Old 10-25-2015, 11:31 AM
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I can't speak for all religions, but I can give my thoughts about Hinduism since I currently practice it.

Hinduism and India are generally seen as vegan/vegetarian friendly, since many Indians/Hindus are vegetarianism. However, I really don't think this is the case.

Many Hindus are born to vegetarian families, but that's it. They weren't taught about animal rights or environmentalism; rather, they were simply born into it, thinking it was the norm. Now, when you aren't taught WHY you should be a vegan/vegetarian, chances are that you can easily become a meat-eater. Brahmins of India are supposed to be vegetarians (and they have been historically), but I have seen these "Brahmins" and priests eat beef!

Now, let me get to the atheism part. I've noticed that when vegetarian Hindus leave their religion, they leave vegetarianism as well. I don't know why, but that's just what I've noticed. It could be because they think the idea of a holy animal is ridiculous or that they think eating meat is cool. Many Hindus who live in the west eat beef (when that is not allowed), so it could be a cultural thing. This seems to be the opposite in the west, where an atheist is more likely to be a vegan than a Christian or Muslim. Of course, my particular branch of Hinduism (like many others) mandates at least vegetarianism.

So, vegetarianism is likely to decline in India, but gladly, it is increasing in the West.

Just a question to all the atheist vegans here: What do you think of the beef bans in India that were enacted recently?
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#60 Old 10-25-2015, 01:17 PM
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I can't speak for all religions, but I can give my thoughts about Hinduism since I currently practice it.

Hinduism and India are generally seen as vegan/vegetarian friendly, since many Indians/Hindus are vegetarianism. However, I really don't think this is the case.

Many Hindus are born to vegetarian families, but that's it. They weren't taught about animal rights or environmentalism; rather, they were simply born into it, thinking it was the norm. Now, when you aren't taught WHY you should be a vegan/vegetarian, chances are that you can easily become a meat-eater. Brahmins of India are supposed to be vegetarians (and they have been historically), but I have seen these "Brahmins" and priests eat beef!

Now, let me get to the atheism part. I've noticed that when vegetarian Hindus leave their religion, they leave vegetarianism as well. I don't know why, but that's just what I've noticed. It could be because they think the idea of a holy animal is ridiculous or that they think eating meat is cool. Many Hindus who live in the west eat beef (when that is not allowed), so it could be a cultural thing. This seems to be the opposite in the west, where an atheist is more likely to be a vegan than a Christian or Muslim. Of course, my particular branch of Hinduism (like many others) mandates at least vegetarianism.

So, vegetarianism is likely to decline in India, but gladly, it is increasing in the West.

Just a question to all the atheist vegans here: What do you think of the beef bans in India that were enacted recently?
Everything that I have read about this beef ban involves violence coming from people who want to enforce it. Exactly the sort of thing mentioned in my other post and why I think religion is not good for people. Humans are important, too. And if they are dying over this, nothing has been accomplished even from solely an animal rights perspective.

And, like you said, when people leave the religion, they'll abandon their appreciation for the life behind beef with it. Faith doesn't make good people. If it did, they'd be good after they stopped believing.
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