Can Someone Explain to Me: Transgender/Transexualism? - Page 2 - VeggieBoards
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#31 Old 09-28-2015, 06:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Beautful Joe
In conservative religious societies, yes, but nowhere I've lived in the past five decades.
Like I said, not everyone can relate, but it's still very much a thing in the less progressive areas of the US (of which there are still plenty).

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Originally Posted by Gita
My sister had "ambiguous" sexual organs.
O_o What does that mean? Did they always dance around the topic?

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Originally Posted by Gita
Even Gay folks can't understand someone with no interest in any sex whatsoever.

Makes me want to laugh! So much misery caused by the brain benieth ones pants, when it does not have to be so.
I agree. I believe there's a choice there as well that people frequently choose to disregard: to sex or not to sex.
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#32 Old 09-28-2015, 08:02 AM
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Like I said, not everyone can relate, but it's still very much a thing in the less progressive areas of the US (of which there are still plenty).
I've lived almost all my life in the Midwest, much of it in a small farming community where the Republican candidates almost always run totally unopposed in local elections, and there are 11 churches in a village, the population of which is just slightly above 1,000. Two of those churches seceded from their national denomination when the national denomination decided to accept the ordination of celibate homosexual clergy (but not to permit same sex marriage). It's a pretty damn conservative place, but a male and a female living together is not a big deal there.
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#33 Old 09-28-2015, 09:06 AM
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That must have sucked. I don't think we're anywhere near breaking down the gender barriers in sports, not when even video game tournaments are being segregated.


This is the most disgusting thing I have ever read, I don't like gendered segregated sports either but with video games that is absolutely ridiculous and disgusting!! There is no reason why boys and girls can not compete with video games together.
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#34 Old 09-28-2015, 12:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Beautiful Joe
I've lived almost all my life in the Midwest, much of it in a small farming community where the Republican candidates almost always run totally unopposed in local elections, and there are 11 churches in a village, the population of which is just slightly above 1,000. Two of those churches seceded from their national denomination when the national denomination decided to accept the ordination of celibate homosexual clergy (but not to permit same sex marriage). It's a pretty damn conservative place, but a male and a female living together is not a big deal there.
*shrugs* Okay.

I'll bet everyone there can also accurately describe veganism too.

I live in a fairly progressive neighborhood as well, but if I look at local listings for roommates wanted, there are an awful lot of "no guys please". The negativity towards co-ed apartments undoubtedly stems heavily from protective parents. In this case, the perspective (just like all forms of discrimination) will vary home to home. Just like the conversation I had not long ago with No Whey Jose, exceptions are more common than we might think:

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Originally Posted by no whey jose
<quote=me>I don't know about where you live, but in most places vegan restaurants are extremely uncommon, let alone hiring.

I would love to work at the only one where I live, but as many times as I've applied I've never been hired and their turnover rate isn't exactly bad.

I was just advising not to set one's sights too high. If you can get one of those jobs, hell yeah! Go for it! But the only ones I know of are independent local businesses, and those are lucky to last more than a few seasons without substantial demand. I'm pretty sure most vegetarians have never stepped foot into a vegan restaurant, let alone seen one.</quote, I wish I could nest my damn quotes>

Sometimes I forget how lucky I've been to live in very vegan-friendly areas. Even when I lived in the southern US, I had at least one vegan restaurant in every town where I stayed-- two in Charlotte, NC!-- plus plenty of veg-friendly restaurants, whole foods markets, etc. My job at a vegan restaurant was one of the best I've ever had.
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Originally Posted by Jasminedesi16
This is the most disgusting thing I have ever read, I don't like gendered segregated sports either but with video games that is absolutely ridiculous and disgusting!! There is no reason why boys and girls can not compete with video games together.
Agreed.

Last edited by Dogma; 09-28-2015 at 12:36 PM.
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#35 Old 09-28-2015, 04:46 PM
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*shrugs* Okay.

I'll bet everyone there can also accurately describe veganism too.

I live in a fairly progressive neighborhood as well, but if I look at local listings for roommates wanted, there are an awful lot of "no guys please". The negativity towards co-ed apartments undoubtedly stems heavily from protective parents. In this case, the perspective (just like all forms of discrimination) will vary home to home. Just like the conversation I had not long ago with No Whey Jose, exceptions are more common than we might think:
Ha! Nobody in that community knows what "vegan" refers to. Very few would know what a vegetarian is. It's far from progressive. That's the point I was trying to make, that in most places in the U.S., people of different sexes sharing living quarters doesn't make them social outcasts.

What you're describing is self selected preferences to not share living quarters with someone of the opposite sex, and there are many reasons for that that have nothing to do with how society will view the potential roommate arrangement.

It's just a lot easier, in so many little ways, to share living space with someone of the same sex, if you're looking at a pool of potential roommates whom you don't already know/have a relationship with. You can walk from your bedroom to the bathroom naked. You have less reason to worry about someone being sexually inappropriate when drunk. If you're female, you don't have to worry about your roommate dribbling outside of the toilet when urinating. You can fart, belch, scratch, etc., without the constraint of having someone of the opposite sex present. And I'll bet you that most females that you would talk to who have lived with male and female roommates will tell you that, in a mixed sex roommate situation, the females end up doing a disproportionate share o the housework.
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#36 Old 09-28-2015, 07:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Beautiful Joe
Ha! Nobody in that community knows what "vegan" refers to. Very few would know what a vegetarian is.
Ooooh! You got me.

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Originally Posted by Beautiful Joe
It's far from progressive. That's the point I was trying to make, that in most places in the U.S., people of different sexes sharing living quarters doesn't make them social outcasts.
Well I wasn't saying social outcasts, that's quite a bit extreme. Now BDSM enthusiasts, there's your social outcasts. As far as male/female roommates are concerned, I was more referring to the tuttuting friend of grandma's who finds out her daughter moved in with a boy she's not already engaged to, but to be fair, that's a very stereotypical example. This kind of thing happens with some modern parents as well, particularly the conservative variety (naturally). Influence and tradition almost always trickles down the tree, including gender roles, if it didn't, religion, marriage, and presidential turkey pardons would've died out long ago.

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Originally Posted by Beautiful Joe
What you're describing is self selected preferences to not share living quarters with someone of the opposite sex, and there are many reasons for that that have nothing to do with how society will view the potential roommate arrangement.
True. A simple and excusable response might be that it would put the tennet in an unusual situation and could make them feel uncomfortable. There's a damn good reason veg*ns usually prefer veg*n roommates.

Sexism could be a big part of it too, though. I'm not saying outright hate, of course, but it's a pretty fair bet that there are women precluding men because they're messy and men precluding women because they'd make them clean up. I've heard it before, not just this past couple weeks in fact. It happens.

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Originally Posted by Beautiful
It's just a lot easier, in so many little ways, to share living space with someone of the same sex,
A LOT easier? I can't think of many conveniences.

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Originally Posted by Beautiful Joe
You can walk from your bedroom to the bathroom naked.
Whoawhoawhoa, that's assuming that both people, same sex or otherwise are comfortable doing that to begin with. I could just as well favor my privacy in those areas around people of the same sex just as someone of the opposite sex and myself could be mature enough to simply walk around nude regardless of our gender. The biggest difference here is probably familiarity with time. Given enough time you've probably accidentally walked in on your roommate enough not to be surprised anymore. To go beyond that is limited only by both tennet's maturity and personal value of privacy.

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Originally Posted by Beautiful Joe
You have less reason to worry about someone being sexually inappropriate when drunk.
*laughs* If I have ANY reason to worry about my roommate being sexually inappropriate, getting drunk will be far lower on my priorities list than "get a new roommate".

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Originally Posted by Beautiful Joe
If you're female, you don't have to worry about your roommate dribbling outside of the toilet when urinating.
Wise men either sit down or install laser guidance systems. This is why we interview.

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Originally Posted by Beautiful Joe
You can fart, belch, scratch, etc., without the constraint of having someone of the opposite sex present.
OH! Mercy! I don't want to hear that, smell that, or... scratch? You know, I don't find it any more comfortable to sit across from someone eating with their mouth open if they share the same genitals as me, so... I think the considerate thing to do is to quietly vacate the room and demonstrate your vile human tendencies somewhere where I won't be unpleasantly reminded that I'm anything like you. Actually, in that case it's probably better if we're opposite sex.

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Originally Posted by Beautiful Joe
And I'll bet you that most females that you would talk to who have lived with male and female roommates will tell you that, in a mixed sex roommate situation, the females end up doing a disproportionate share o the housework.
Oh, hey now, that's not a convenience, that's just a depressing statistic that completely validates your point which I agree with, but won't say because I find the potential for rhetoric too amusing! For shame, Beautiful Joe, for shame.

Seriously though, that's true, but it partly feeds into my point: sexism is part of the reason mixed sex roommates are frowned on. Of course you can argue that's it's not necessarily sexism and to that I would also agree: it's not necessarily sexism, however sexism-rooted behavior ("I'm less inclined to do housework around my female roommate since most of the women in my life did it for me") which produce such statistics will almost certainly encourage further sexism ("I'm less inclined to get a male roommate since men won't do any housework"). It's a stupid vicious circle, and we've got to avoid getting trapped in it.

Last edited by Dogma; 09-28-2015 at 07:49 PM.
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#37 Old 09-28-2015, 08:04 PM
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As far as male/female roommates are concerned, I was more referring to the tuttuting friend of grandma's who finds out her daughter moved in with a boy she's not already engaged to, but to be fair, that's a very stereotypical example.
You have to remember that today's grandmas came of age in the free love sixties and later, and probably had more sexual experience at your age than you and your friends do. I don't know a single person of my generation (yep, I'm in the grandparent generation) who would be upset at a young relative co-habitating with someone of the opposite sex. Marriage, OTOH, is another matter - I know lots of people who've been worried about their younger relatives getting married too young, for the wrong reasons, or to the wrong person.
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#38 Old 09-29-2015, 05:55 AM
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You have to remember that today's grandmas came of age in the free love sixties and later, and probably had more sexual experience at your age than you and your friends do.
It's not a substantial argument, but my parents were part of that generation. My GRANDparents were not. And they're still around, some running alongside the frontlines of technology, and others still very much stuck in an era long past.

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Originally Posted by Beautiful Joe
Marriage, OTOH, is another matter - I know lots of people who've been worried about their younger relatives getting married too young, for the wrong reasons, or to the wrong person.
Oh yeah, that'll definitely be a thing until we grow out of marriage too, however marriage has quite a diabolical hold and sadly I don't expect to see it gone before my dramatic death on Earth Day 2041 in which I tackle Donnie Smith into an exploding McDonald's mascot on the top floor of Tyson Foods Headquarters to the climax of Imagine by A Perfect Circle.
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#39 Old 09-29-2015, 07:00 PM
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I, personally, cannot be very transparent, Dogma. Because what you expect from a TS, in general, is a solid statement in which he/she proves through some very pointing words his/hers transgenderism. What you do is to 'excoriate', somehow, asking for a really good explanation why some people are being like this, TS, and that for they to be accepted, maybe, by the 'normal' majority.
Is all so vague, why/what/who we are, all of us. You, me, all the people in the world. What we are... Isn't important. How we are isn't important as well. Not everything has a scientific proved explanation. I mean, how does two particles at the extreme sides of the universe can be, and 'feel', in the same time, the same thing? Is impossible they communicate instantly. There is no information transfer speed greater than the speed of light, which for universe's vast is really slow. Not everything can be sufficiently explained.
I am as how I feel, I think. I am what makes me feel better. Isn't that enough?
As for the other topic, marriage, I think I have the same thoughts of you, around it. I find relating of people with each other a pure selfish thing. We coexist for to survive, for to depend on the others. Is more easy like that. Besides we need to multiply, for the surviving of the species. Which people like me are being blamed for endanger. In fact, I really would looove to become a mother, one day, after my transition will be complete. And yes, even if it sounds creepy, I fairly can say I've seen a lot of ****ty mothers out there, including mine, so trust me, I know I will make a much better mom than many. Is not important how we get the children into existence, important is how we can manage making them be.
As about the futuristic technology, in which topic I already got above, we can do many things by this amazing nanotechnology development within this present, and even more amazing in the next future. What I think we are, is machines, robots. We have a very great amount of logical arguments that form our subconsciousness, and is that great it will take probably many more hundreds of years to our engineers to equal that in their laboratory work. That's why I like so much to keep a mystical respect to our 'spirit', what I call 'kernel', that most of it is our genetic legacy we take form within. But indeed as you say, later on, that will just be not so important anymore, as technology will permit us to juggle with ourselves in an easy way, we will just be not, anymore. We will only be forever, as a huge knowledge, in an amount, existing. But not as individuals anymore. Something collective, ruled by itself. Is how we can name today society, as a huge creature, formed by all, and with no respect for individuality. That we will be probably into the future. We already fade out our, thinner with days, privacy. But the good thing it is we will all live forever, as an immense mind, an amount of thoughts, that know everything, about everything, and keep knowing. Is that, maybe, godhead?..
Anyway, I loved 'Ghost in the shell', I really loved it.. Amazing idea, amazing series, and movies.. A lot of other later SF inspired from it, including 'Matrix' etc.
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#40 Old 09-30-2015, 07:20 AM
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I, personally, cannot be very transparent, Dogma. Because what you expect from a TS, in general, is a solid statement in which he/she proves through some very pointing words his/hers transgenderism.
Well considering that transsexualism is now so frequently lumped in with LGB as T and LGB is fairly simple to describe and explain, I would hope the same be true for T.

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Originally Posted by cris gabi
Is all so vague, why/what/who we are, all of us. You, me, all the people in the world. What we are... Isn't important.
I agree. All told, it's a very trivial matter and there are so many of us in such extreme variety that compartmentalizing everybody is almost futile. HOWEVER, while it is a topic, so long as we've gone so far as to name it, transgenderism, we might as well talk about it. Not uselessly, but constructively, and that requires a degree of clarity I've yet to see.

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Originally Posted by cris gabi
Not everything has a scientific proved explanation.
That's true, just because I can't explain superhoolahoopofdeathfrombeyondthethirdcanism, doesn't mean it doesn't apply to me.

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Originally Posted by cris gabi
I mean, how does two particles at the extreme sides of the universe can be, and 'feel', in the same time, the same thing?
Trick question: The universe in infinite, therefor there are no sides. Seriously though: What?

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Originally Posted by cris gabi
Is impossible they communicate instantly. There is no information transfer speed greater than the speed of light, which for universe's vast is really slow. Not everything can be sufficiently explained.
...What? I really have no idea what kind of phenomenon you're referring to.

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Originally Posted by cris gabi
I am as how I feel, I think. I am what makes me feel better. Isn't that enough?
*laughs* Okay, I get it. So if I feel sad: I'm sad. If I feel happy: I'm happy. If I feel like a hippopotamus: I'm a transpeciesist.

Maybe it's really just a language issue. Fallible absolute statements get to me and there seem to be a lot of people referring to themselves matter-of-factly as genders they most definitely are not.

Even if I relax my definition of gender to refer purely to what I would see when you drop your pants, that still doesn't explain gender identity. What is it? How can it be? I mean, gender identity is taken to mean both more and less than what characteristics I would refer to when identifying a gender.

We got heterosexual men throwing on wigs with long hair, putting on lipstick, and wearing heels, because they "feel like a woman", even though none of those qualities are even remotely indicative of any woman's natural characteristics, and yet simultaneously we have homosexual women, a sufficiently common natural characteristic among men, and getting sex changes because they "feel like men" and yet both parties are sharing the same umbrella for some reason.

Is transgenderism the cause or the effect? How much simpler this would all be if transgender really was just someone who better identified with the opposite sex because of their sexual attraction as I ORIGINALLY thought, but no, now people are quick to correct me that sexual attraction has nothing to do with it, which makes all this confuse me even more.

The keyword here is obviously "feel". But in what way are we "feeling"? I don't think I'd be so lost if it didn't seem like everyone was feeling something entirely different:

"I feel empty.",
"I feel sexually attracted to men.",
"I feel I can better empathize with women.",
"I feel hoop earrings would better match a set of breasts.",
"I feel people would treat me better if I was a different gender.",
"I feel I'll never get to fulfill my gay fantasy without a sex change.",
"I can't feel a penis between my legs, this is seriously concerning me."

I think some causes for transgender feelings wouldn't exist without sexism and homophobia, and even others if people simply had better self esteem.

But those are social issues and social issues are so liquid as to be meaningless. They don't account for everybody, so something is clearly missing.

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Originally Posted by cris gabi
I think I have the same thoughts of you,

Besides we need to multiply, for the surviving of the species.
I think we differ here. Personal survival is most certainly a need to the person in question, but species survival is by no means a need. You won't die if you don't have sex, there simply won't be someone else to puzzle over the same false dilemma.

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Originally Posted by cris gabi
Which people like me are being blamed for endanger.
OH YEAH, THAT IS A THING. Jeez, I forgot the whole "humanity will die out if we support gay agendas" crap.

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Originally Posted by cris gabi
And yes, even if it sounds creepy, I fairly can say I've seen a lot of ****ty mothers out there, including mine, so trust me, I know I will make a much better mom than many. Is not important how we get the children into existence, important is how we can manage making them be.
If my sudden and violent flashbacks to House of the Scorpion are anything to go by, then yes, it is important how children come to be.

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Originally Posted by cris gabi
What I think we are, is machines, robots. We have a very great amount of logical arguments that form our subconsciousness, and is that great it will take probably many more hundreds of years to our engineers to equal that in their laboratory work. That's why I like so much to keep a mystical respect to our 'spirit', what I call 'kernel', that most of it is our genetic legacy we take form within. But indeed as you say, later on, that will just be not so important anymore, as technology will permit us to juggle with ourselves in an easy way,
This actually better explains some things you said earlier.

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Originally Posted by cris gabi
We will only be forever, as a huge knowledge, in an amount, existing.
"KNOW THAT I AM THE OVERMIND...

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Originally Posted by cris gabi
But not as individuals anymore. Something collective, ruled by itself.
...THE ETERNAL WILL OF THE SWARM,...

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Originally Posted by cris gabi
Is how we can name today society, as a huge creature, formed by all, and with no respect for individuality.
...AND THAT YOU HAVE BEEN CREATED TO SERVE ME."


Perhaps this is why hiveminds are almost universally evil? I don't know, a true collective of people's minds sharing their thoughts would make it awful difficult to start arguments. Think of how many problems we'd solve when literally everyone's vote counts. There wouldn't even be votes! Everyone would be making an informed decision based the exact same information.

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Originally Posted by cris gabi
But the good thing it is we will all live forever, as an immense mind, an amount of thoughts, that know everything, about everything, and keep knowing. Is that, maybe, godhead?..
Anyway, I loved 'Ghost in the shell',
BLAM! Knowing what a Stand Alone Complex is makes that a deceivingly relevant segue!

Last edited by Dogma; 09-30-2015 at 07:32 AM.
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#41 Old 09-30-2015, 02:59 PM
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The keyword here is obviously "feel". But in what way are we "feeling"? I don't think I'd be so lost if it didn't seem like everyone was feeling something entirely different:

"I feel empty.",
"I feel sexually attracted to men.",
"I feel I can better empathize with women.",
"I feel hoop earrings would better match a set of breasts.",
"I feel people would treat me better if I was a different gender.",
"I feel I'll never get to fulfill my gay fantasy without a sex change.",
"I can't feel a penis between my legs, this is seriously concerning me."

I think some causes for transgender feelings wouldn't exist without sexism and homophobia, and even others if people simply had better self esteem.

But those are social issues and social issues are so liquid as to be meaningless. They don't account for everybody, so something is clearly missing.

I, 99 percent, agree your points of view, in here, and more than only this, since the beginning of the topic, I find your way of explaining very rightful, and very well logical structured.
Although there is a slight angle I can't agree. Not because I am the person who always has to be at least within one detail, outside. But because you refuse to agree, in things that you already very well understand. You just refuse, and deny it. Well, what can I say, I've been there, no, I am there, sometimes, still. Is part of being a 'thinking person'. You can't just take anything for granted. And this it is a good thing.
The only bad thing in this is that you make people get tired of trying to find always other words to explain you the same thing. Though, I know how it is believe me, to be you.
When you put the little drop under the microscope, I mean, hell study it until the bits of its quarks jump and dance in your eyes.
How clear it is for you, that no one can be so open, so transparent, because being a gender dysphoria case, we are not like LGB people, happy, and living the dream, living the life. My journey is a hell! Literally. Since ever. People accept so easy, nowadays at least, homosexuality, and also drag queen thing, but they will still be very conservative regarding a woman that they know, inside 'hides' a dude. 'Still a dude', that is the often phrase. And this is only 1 percent of the bad, in our transgender people lives. The rest is the torture of the transition. You know, to be not used with so much pain, and to accept it, as part of being a woman, I mean, what else do we need to prove more, to the others, that we really not having fun, and making fun of the society, by dressing up and pretending we're someone else. Because if you take a film of a trans person's life, as it is the v-log of 'Princess Joules' on YouTube, being with her through all her really sad experiences, everything is mostly bad, looked from exterior, though is good, looked through her eyes, because she endured the bad as part of transition, of making herself happy. It was a course of 'karma', attending the way through 'nirvana', somehow. And, does she feel really happy now? I think not, but I can see she feels accomplished.
I really recommend you to try some of her videos, just type 'princessjoules', and you find a lot of videos, since she start transition, few years ago until now. I can't put any link, because I'm not sure which of them is more interesting for you to check out, from her videos. You check it out, what makes you feel you want to watch, if any.
However, how I felt a woman, and by not knowing what that might be, I dissappontingly felt 'kind of.. gay', I mean not gay-gay, because that I've never been, I never liked men, (not consciously, not unconsciously, and not secretly), but because of my... being, so 'effeminate', as my sister was joshing me.
I was back then so uncomfortable with clothing.. I was always searching for.. I didn't know what, but not 'those' clothes, that I supposed to wear. Then I discovered the 'unisex' clothes. But, when sometimes I was, okay, willing to try some specific 'guy' designed trousers etc, wearing them later I was feeling so.. monotone. I was feeling really ugly, and fully out of my comfort. Without even to guess, what it was hiding inside of my mind for real.
You know, first I discovered that there is a 'species' called 'shemale', and that is a woman born with both male and female organs, and I was so disturbed, by that idea. I felt sorry for her/him. Then after a couple of weeks I told my sister I might be one. And she laughed. But I really went to my doctor, and the doctor laughed too, assuring me I am perfectly not 'mixed up' anywhere inside. So it was just all in my mind.
Then I started to type more about 'shemale' things, asking Google on this phenomena.. I was revolted it exists, but also I was blindly interested with it, like a zombie walking into something I was trapped by, hypnotically.
This is how I found out everything about transgenderism/transsexualism, about what I was, in fact.
I had really no idea, for sure. I was only feeling that way, but never having a real idea, about what it means.
And on the internet, actually on YouTube,I've learned everything I needed to know. First of all, that there are more people like me, feeling just the same I was feeling. Dot to dot. So I was not crazy, as I was thinking, struggling within myself. And most of all, I wasn't gay!.. I always been afraid to be gay. I was finding homosexuality something I don't want to explore, nor to think of. Period.
I've never found a guy attractive, not even now I can't see men being attractive. Though, after i explored much inside my very deep feelings, I am in some certain way bound with some about men sexual fantasy. I still find women more for me, in bed. I just adore women's beauty, some say is because I am a too much into 'cats' kind of person. Though, to be honest, I can't feel fully dominatrix. And I can't feel well as being dominated by a woman neither. The only thing it gives me thrills is men, in definitive, but there are some certain border lines, in this. I mean, I involuntarily 'ache' to do 'everything' sexually with men, even I've never tried.., as a matter of fact, still, and I imagine why I feel so positive towards it, because one is to keep fantasy, and another one is to stop fantasy and do it.

I am a woman who likes to feel dominated, in bed, and to dominate, out of bed.
But, still, you see, I find this quote really true, that 'sexual orientation is who you go to sleep with, while gender identity is who you wake up as'. I forgot who said it, but is very smart, and fairly truthful. So, yeah, as you said, transgender has not so much the right place inside this acronym thing, alongside 'lesbian-gay-bisexual'.
Is much hiding inside the mind of a trans person. I mean, I always hated men. Even now, I can't stand them much. But inside of me, I collapse thinking of sexual relationing with them. But not as a gay thing. I refuse to try on anything, until my transition will be total. So, no, I am not a gay guy. I always suppressed my feelings inside, without even to know I am doing that, until I could really discover myself; because it is not the same thing, being a gay guy vs a straight woman. It's different. If now I would be forced like really forced, that I will never be able to finish my transition, I will totally freeze up all my men about warm butterflies in the stomach. Like instantly.
How more clear than this could one be, to give you a fair and right answer, my friend?..

I hope finally someone would, because me, I am clueless further more.. )
Cheers. And, may the good rustling of the universe find you..
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#42 Old 10-01-2015, 09:56 AM
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Please prepare your butt for what may be the longest post yet:

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I, 99 percent, agree your points of view, in here, and more than only this, since the beginning of the topic, I find your way of explaining very rightful, and very well logical structured.
Although there is a slight angle I can't agree. Not because I am the person who always has to be at least within one detail, outside. But because you refuse to agree, in things that you already very well understand. You just refuse, and deny it.
I'm denying something I understand? What?

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Originally Posted by cris gabi
The only bad thing in this is that you make people get tired of trying to find always other words to explain you the same thing.
I seriously would not be asking for clarification on a topic if I was completely comfortable with my perspective of it. As much as I appreciate your feedback, Gabi, you've got to admit the key points we're stumbling over aren't just simple words I'm outright failing to interpret. Honestly, hypothetically you could explain your perspective on the situation and I could completely understand you on all points, however there are so many exceptions to this topic that it's actually fairly complicated. Complicated topics however I feel can still be realistically explained with objective information without so much subjective information obscuring it.

Like I said, if transgenderism was really just a social by-product of homosexuality, then most of my questions would be answered because I get homosexuality. It's an idea I understand, I'm familiar with, and I can accurately and concisely explain it with solid statements comprised of rigidly defined words. But it's not, and I'm getting a spider web of relatively vague concepts like "gender identity" and "feelings", strung together with normally bold terms like "men" and "women" to make some truly baffling explanations. "I'm a woman on the outside, but I'm a man on the inside" simply bamboozles me. I'm not refusing to understand something plain and obvious, the information being presented to me seems to be like something poorly translated from another language. How are you a man on the inside? Are you referring to your anatomy? Or are you referring to a stereotype? The statement raises more questions than it answers, and here's the thing:

LGB seems like a pretty good cause to support given that the discrimination affected on it is both common and almost totally unfair. The only reason I can get behind it though is because I understand what LGB is:

L stands for Lesbians, women who are sexually attracted to other women.
G stands for Gays, men who are sexually attracted to other men.
B stands for Bisexuals, men or women who are sexually attracted to both men and women.

I get that. It's simple, it's basic, everyone knows what men are, everyone knows what women are, everyone knows what sexual attraction is. Done. Enough said. But when I get to T... my best approximations sound like a meandering mess of loaded jargon in a game "ONE OF THESE THINGS IS NOT LIKE THE OTHER":

T stands for Transgenders and Transsexuals, men and women who refer to themselves or self identify as women and men respectively, and men and women who have surgically manipulated their genitals to appear to be women and men respectively, respectively.


Even with that explanation it still leaves 'self identify' open to interpretation, and it's that black hole that stops me because while LGB issues are simple questions of sexual attraction, something no one chooses, T actually does seem to be a choice. I mean, you literally cannot be a transsexual by nature, transsexuals are fabricated. Further, the definition of Transgender appears to hinge on the notion of "gender identity", the literal act of identifying as a gender. If I'm to believe that it's not a choice, then we're asserting that people are naturally born believing they were born wrong, which is a fantastic example of exponentially circular logic in and of itself, but if instead it's meant to be interpreted as people who are naturally born with qualities associated with the opposite gender, then...

DUH. Of course men will share some feminine qualities and women will share some masculine qualities, we all share the same hormones: women simply tend to have more estrogen, and men tend to have more testosterone, so where and why are transgenders drawing the line? What specific qualities or quantity of qualities warrant someone turning around and saying "You know what? Everything unrelated to my anatomy has convinced me that I'm actually a woman.". The alternative appears to be drawing the line at anatomy itself and I can't even BEGIN to comprehend how that's supposed to work. Do people seriously look down at themselves in their pants and feel some terrible revulsion towards what they see?

I mean, I get it, humans are wrinkly disgusting hairy skin creatures, but "the grass is always greener on the other side of the fence" seems to be a frighteningly simplistic lesson to learn after committing to something as extreme as a sex change. That's like learning the importance of buckling your seatbelt the hard way after you've already become professional race car driver in the Indy 500.

Also, what's to stop me from self identifying as a hermaphrodite? I have a guess: stereotypes, and this is my whole issue with T potentially being a choice. With LGB you really can't fairly condemn them at all, because sexual attraction is just an instinct. An impulse. An unintentional connection between two nodes in the brain. Bashing LGB is like bashing people for growing beards, or getting hunger pains, or dancing to Build Me Up Buttercup by The Foundations, there's really no choice in the matter.

The contrasting evidence with T betrays what I think could be a serious potential issue: people CHOOSING transgenderism/transsexualism purely for social reasons.

As I said before; social reasons are so liquid as to be meaningless. By that I meant society changes so frequently and society's motivations are frequently selfish.

On one hand, we have the pressure of stereotypes: Suppose a man grows up in an environment where he can comfortably pursue a personal style, hobby, and/or mannerism that society deems effeminate. Suppose he frequently experiences society's preconceptions of how men and women are expected to act and he's heckled, harassed, bullied, or worse. Suppose he interprets that to mean that he'd be better off with a different body, or even worse, convinces himself that they're ALL RIGHT and that there really is something wrong with him and that it would not have been an issue if he had been born a woman. The result: he self-identifies as a woman.

I can't agree with that, I think it's terrible on MULTIPLE levels, foremost being that instead of refuting the stereotypes cruelly and unfairly assigned to him, he chooses to subjugate himself to society's whims and expectations and reinforces the very stereotypes that put him in such an awful position in the first place.

On the other hand, we have the consequences of making what may be a very real concern a bandwagon for wannabes to jump on. I'm not saying that being transgender is trendy or anything, but if transgenderism ISN'T a choice, then people misinterpreting the subject could turn transgenders into victims by association.

It's like PETA. A lot of people think PETA is great and that they're sending an important message with commercials like this:


But the reality is, they're just making the rest of us look bad. I mean have you ever heard anyone say "I became vegetarian for the sex"? And that was a SUPER BOWL ad, if it hadn't been banned it would've cost PETA MILLIONS of dollars.

That's the kind of thing I'm talking about. Just like LGBs should never be confused with Metrosexuals, Ts will have to be separated so as to discern the difference between Transgenders with good reasons and Transgenders without. Because honestly, I'd rather support a lesbian who wants to get a sex change because they otherwise won't have normal sex with their significant other of X years, than a man who rides the stereotypes from waves to shore by calling himself a woman when a man who enjoys gardening in heels to the tune of Cyndi Lauper is COMPLETELY ACCEPTABLE.

All of this is entirely dependent on whether or not Transgenderism is a choice, though. I don't know, it's something I'd like to know. If it isn't, then that warrants some explanation, if it is, then that's one more reason T seems out of place in the LGBT lineup.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cris gabi
we are not like LGB people, happy, and living the dream, living the life. My journey is a hell! Literally. Since ever. People accept so easy, nowadays at least, homosexuality, and also drag queen thing, but they will still be very conservative regarding a woman that they know, inside 'hides' a dude.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cris gabi
'Still a dude', that is the often phrase.
Yeah, I can't imagine it's used in very many relevant circumstances.

"Could you please pass me the potatoes?"

"...still a dude..."

Quote:
Originally Posted by cris gabi
And this is only 1 percent of the bad, in our transgender people lives. The rest is the torture of the transition. You know, to be not used with so much pain, and to accept it, as part of being a woman,
Ehhh... what? The only real pains of naturally being a woman are pregnancy, periods, and having to buy entirely separate underwear for your rack. Women are most certainly oppressed to a degree, if that's what you mean, but I'm fairly certain most of your trial comes from transgender/transsexual stigmas.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cris gabi
I mean, what else do we need to prove more, to the others, that we really not having fun, and making fun of the society, by dressing up and pretending we're someone else.
I can certainly understand that frustration.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cris gabi
I really recommend you to try some of her videos, just type 'princessjoules', and you find a lot of videos, since she start transition, few years ago until now. I can't put any link, because I'm not sure which of them is more interesting for you to check out,
Alright fine, I'll give one a look:


"They're people who are born in the wrong body." *headdesk* What does that mean!?

"I was born physically male on the outside, but I am 100% female on the inside." *tableflip* What does that mean!?

"My plan is to get breast implants in the future. Maybe like a nice B or C cup, just like a handful, so when my boyfriend touches it he'll... he'll like it? I don't know. Whatever." *laughs*

"I think my face is fine the way it is, I mean I don't wanna change myself too much beyond recognition, like... maybe I need a few things done..." *stops laughing* Ma'am, if you want to look feminine, you're not doing yourself any favors with facial reconstruction.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cris gabi
I was back then so uncomfortable with clothing.. I was always searching for.. I didn't know what, but not 'those' clothes, that I supposed to wear.
Okay, now if you're going to make the argument that transgenderism is something you're born with (I don't know if you are, but in case you are), you must realize that this entirely unrelated, right? No one's born with any predisposition towards certain clothes, unless you're flat-footed or allergic to hemp, and I have trouble rationalizing a man becoming inexplicably uncomfortable without pants with wider hips and shirts with breast room.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cris gabi
Then I discovered the 'unisex' clothes. But, when sometimes I was, okay, willing to try some specific 'guy' designed trousers etc, wearing them later I was feeling so.. monotone. I was feeling really ugly, and fully out of my comfort.
UGH! "Unisex Pants"! The two saddest words after "Dead Cat" and "Mildly Cloudy".

Quote:
Originally Posted by cris gabi
You know, first I discovered that there is a 'species' called 'shemale', and that is a woman born with both male and female organs, and I was so disturbed, by that idea. I felt sorry for her/him. Then after a couple of weeks I told my sister I might be one. And she laughed. But I really went to my doctor, and the doctor laughed too, assuring me I am perfectly not 'mixed up' anywhere inside. So it was just all in my mind.
Well, 'shemale's have a rather specific definition that doesn't apply to you. Or were you afraid that your breasts just hadn't grown in yet? :P

Quote:
Originally Posted by cris gabi
Then I started to type more about 'shemale' things, asking Google on this phenomena.
UH-OH.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cris gabi
I was revolted it exists, but also I was blindly interested with it, like a zombie walking into something I was trapped by, hypnotically.
I'm sure that was difficult to explain search history.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cris gabi
This is how I found out everything about transgenderism/transsexualism, about what I was, in fact.
I had really no idea, for sure. I was only feeling that way, but never having a real idea, about what it means.
And on the internet, actually on YouTube,I've learned everything I needed to know. First of all, that there are more people like me, feeling just the same I was feeling. Dot to dot. So I was not crazy, as I was thinking, struggling within myself. And most of all, I wasn't gay!.. I always been afraid to be gay. I was finding homosexuality something I don't want to explore, nor to think of. Period.
Homosexual!? Oh! Ew! God NO!

Transsexual? ...tell me more...

Quote:
Originally Posted by cris gabi
I've never found a guy attractive, not even now I can't see men being attractive.
Well of course they're gonna look butt ugly when you make 'em cry like that.


Quote:
Originally Posted by cris gabi
Though, after i explored much inside my very deep feelings, I am in some certain way bound with some about men sexual fantasy.

How about now?

Quote:
Originally Posted by cris gabi
The only thing it gives me thrills is men, in definitive, but there are some certain border lines, in this. I mean, I involuntarily 'ache' to do 'everything' sexually with men, even I've never tried.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cris gabi
as a matter of fact, still, and I imagine why I feel so positive towards it, because one is to keep fantasy, and another one is to stop fantasy and do it.
Depends on the fantasy. Perhaps you've been too quick to dismiss it in the past?

Quote:
Originally Posted by cris gabi
I am a woman who likes to feel dominated, in bed, and to dominate, out of bed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cris gabi
I mean, I always hated men.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cris gabi
Even now, I can't stand them much.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cris gabi
But inside of me, I collapse thinking of sexual relationing with them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cris gabi
But not as a gay thing.
OOOHHH... I get it now. I think. So you ARE sexually attracted to men, but you're disinterested in gay sex? I think that still makes you gay. O_o

Quote:
Originally Posted by cris gabi
I refuse to try on anything, until my transition will be total. So, no, I am not a gay guy.
...I think you are... (<_< ) ...just not for long...

Quote:
Originally Posted by cris gabi
it is not the same thing, being a gay guy vs a straight woman. It's different.
*laughs* Hey, if you're already in outfield, you only need a baseball cap and glove to be part of the team.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cris gabi
If now I would be forced like really forced, that I will never be able to finish my transition, I will totally freeze up all my men about warm butterflies in the stomach. Like instantly.
It'd be off to fanfiction.net for you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cris gabi
How more clear than this could one be, to give you a fair and right answer, my friend?..
Well, friend... I still have many unanswered questions, however some of them may simply have no answers yet.

I will however contribute one last thing to UNGODLY long post, a video I stumbled upon completely on accident:


It took me several minutes to find out what I was looking at thanks to the wording, but apparently it's a 14-year old boy receiving an estrogen prescription, something he'd been wanting for quite a while.

Obviously from the reaction, this meant a great deal to him, however this does give rise to even more questions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BuzzFeed
Erica told BuzzFeed News that Corey was always feminine, even from the time she was very young. “She loved to dress in high heels and dresses. In public she wore boy clothes — I just assumed she might be gay.”
*facepalm* Sexual attraction has nothing to do with [REDACTED] clothes!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by BuzzFeed
When Corey was in the fifth grade she was bullied so badly her mother made the decision to pull her out of public school and begin homeschooling.
AAAnd Mom makes a comeback!

Quote:
Originally Posted by BuzzFeed
It wasn’t until Corey was 11 years old that the mother-daughter duo came across a video of transgender YouTuber Jazz Jennings and everything suddenly clicked. “She said, ‘Mom, I’m just like her, I AM a girl.’”
Except you aren't. O_O

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wikipedia
Oh jeez, is that going to be a thing now? We can't just say such-and-such is male? We have to say such-and-such WAS ASSIGNED male? Doesn't that kind of make the whole gender thing sound like an imposition now?

Like, "I was assigned red hair and freckles at birth, but I identify as albino."

Doesn't that sound friggen' silly?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BuzzFeed
Corey was given a puberty-suppressing implant just a few months later. “It’s usually a fight to get the insurance to cover it for gender dysphoria, and we were fully prepared to write letters, make phone calls, whatever it took to get it covered, as it costs $21,000 just for the implant — that didn’t include any of the doctor or hospital fees for placing it surgically,” her mother said of the process. The family was informed that the procedure would be fully covered by their insurance.
That's a surprise. o_O

Quote:
Originally Posted by BuzzFeed
The family’s therapist, along with the medical team in Chicago, determined that Corey was ready to start hormone therapy in August 2015, as she would be 14 years old. “All we had to do was wait for the therapist to send over the ‘readiness’ letter to Chicago. We waited, and waited, and waited,” Corey’s mother said of the process. On Sept. 24, Erica finally received a phone call from the pharmacy letting her know the estrogen prescription was ready to be picked up. “It was so surreal. I was shaking and crying the entire trip to the pharmacy. I was trying to think of the best way to tell her that the day she had been waiting two and a half years for was finally here.”

Aw, that's kinda nice.


Quote:
Originally Posted by BuzzFeed
Erica has received nothing but positive reactions since posting the video to YouTube and Facebook.
LIES! ALL LIES!! HORRIBLE HORRIBLE LIES!!!

Last edited by Dogma; 10-01-2015 at 10:16 AM.
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#43 Old 10-01-2015, 06:40 PM
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Well, I had an interesting experience today. Part of my job is doing intakes on newly pregnant patients, recording their health history, etc.

My pregnant patient was a female soldier transitioning to male. He prefers to be addressed as a male, so the staff had entered him into the computer as male. I couldn't document any pregnancy- related information because the program is set up to only do that for females. I didn't say this to the couple, of course, but it was very awkward!

After the patient left, we had them change the gender in the computer to female in order to document the pregnancy.
no whey jose likes this.
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#44 Old 10-01-2015, 07:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LedBoots View Post
Well, I had an interesting experience today. Part of my job is doing intakes on newly pregnant patients, recording their health history, etc.

My pregnant patient was a female soldier transitioning to male. He prefers to be addressed as a male, so the staff had entered him into the computer as male. I couldn't document any pregnancy- related information because the program is set up to only do that for females. I didn't say this to the couple, of course, but it was very awkward!

After the patient left, we had them change the gender in the computer to female in order to document the pregnancy.
Yeah... that's the thing about sex changes, you can swap out the disc drive, add more RAM, and even get a soft wrist pad for your keyboard, but it's still the same computer if the motherboard hasn't changed.
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#45 Old 10-01-2015, 11:00 PM
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Oh my goodness, child. What in heaven are you trying to?.. You want to make a documentary? Take it a little more easy than you do. Life is hack so long, and boring, but if you take it so fast and harsh, it will go fast. And harsh. And you end up noticing you learned nothing from it. Believe me, mostly old people I met are the living witness of this observation.
But a young, Leelah Alcorn [ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Leelah_Alcorn ] is/was the most prominent prove.
We are not ants. We live some while, and we have plenty of chance to find many answers, and plenty of fun/happiness, or anything else we're looking for, if we just stop, sometimes, and open our eyes to see them, the answers/fun/happiness. You have so much energy, which I admire, to be fair. But you know I am right saying that you, most of it, waste it. By jumping into flames, and then into cold water, and then again into boiling points. For what? For the sake of wasting some of that adrenaline runs into your veins. Well, if I never was through this, I wouldn't know, so I wouldn't understand. But I've been there. So I can only smile, nostalgically, 'seeing' you.
In fact, I wanted you to watch..., about Julie Vu, for I was trying to answer you why T has no real place among LGB, blahblahblah etc, while sexual orientation has pretty much nothing to do with gender identity blahblahblah... That you already know. But I just wanted to confirm I am with your thoughts about this.
Try to listen, if you can, sometimes, for to find the answers. They are between the lines, very often... This video might give you a better image of what I was picturing.. Than what you've seen, by hitting enter on the first link came out on her page..
]Take care of you, kid, and have some fun, you're still young!, I obviously can notice that. Your life has to be perfect these ages. Don't fight against it like that..

Last edited by cris gabi; 10-01-2015 at 11:13 PM.
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#46 Old 10-02-2015, 09:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cris gabi
Oh my goodness, child. What in heaven are you trying to?.. You want to make a documentary? Take it a little more easy than you do. Life is hack so long, and boring, but if you take it so fast and harsh, it will go fast.
*shrugs* It's a heavy topic. I want to know more about it. And I prefer to keep things light and funny if I can.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cris gabi
In fact, I wanted you to watch..., about Julie Vu, for I was trying to answer you why T has no real place among LGB, blahblahblah etc, while sexual orientation has pretty much nothing to do with gender identity blahblahblah... That you already know. But I just wanted to confirm I am with your thoughts about this.
Try to listen, if you can, sometimes, for to find the answers. They are between the lines, very often... This video might give you a better image of what I was picturing.. Than what you've seen, by hitting enter on the first link came out on her page..
I also clicked that video because it was simply titled "Transgender" which was the most generically relevant to what we were talking about. Any way, I'll watch this one.

*watches*

"Some people think transitioning is super easy,"


O_o What? Really?

"...you take some pills everyday, you grow your hair out, you put make-up on, you buy girl clothes..."

That list violently falls apart after the first item. But I guess the point is it's supposed to sound easy for the sake of contrast, so go on...

"NO! There's so much involved, it's so complex, it's so complicated..."

Whoa, I didn't think it was super easy, but I didn't think it was GRANDMASTER CHESS LEVELS COMPLICATED.

"It affects you physically, but it also affects you mentally."

Alright, I'll concede that hormones have a definite impact on people's brains, no doubt, but... something tells me I'm going to have trouble following this porcelain lady with crayon eyebrows, blood-red lipstick, and claws like lizardfolk.

"There's not one transgender person or one LGBT member who doesn't go through depression or dark moments in their lives."

Unless you count general harassment as 'dark moments' I seriously doubt that. I spent my early childhood frequently bullied because I satisfied stereotypes of the opposite gender, but it hardly compares to the most difficult hurdles I've had to deal with. Even if you're talking about physical violence or hate crimes that's not unique to LGBT.

"The first incident was near the beginning of my transition, it was just so much to cope with, there was so much to handle with, and get used to. It was just literally SO CRAZED, like my world went upside-down and I had to dress differently, I had to speak differently,"

Yeah, puberty's a *****.

"...everything was just too much for my 19-year old self,"

Wait, what? You were 19? You're literally talking about your transition? Your 'transition' as in wearing skirts and feigning voices? You were just talking about this like this was the easy stuff! Are you trying to convince me it's not easy? As in putting on a new outfit and speaking in a fake voice? ...'Cause it is. Actors do it all the time, and have to lie convincingly.

"...it was just way too much."

Gosh it sucks your parents put you through that-oh wait they didn't- what!? If it was too much, why were you doing it to yourself!? You can't convince me it was necessary when you apparently survived a whole 18 consecutive years prior!

"The fear of people clocking you for having short hair [gibberish]..."

Now the threat of physical violence, that's a real concern, but, hold on... clocking you for having short hair? When you were male? There are people who bully boys for having short hair... If it was LONG HAIR I'd understand, but I've never heard of someone getting bullied because they had stereotypically appropriate hair.

"...people laughing at me, making fun of me..."

That's never fun. It looks like you got over that since you're making Youtube videos now.

"...it was just way too much for myself..."

Really? Look, harassment blows hard, I won't argue that in the least, but you're acting like this is a transgender thing. I'm not transgender and I got bullied, I've been in fights.

That makes me wonder though now, wheres the recognition for transvestites? They kind of got left in the wake of this transgender/transsexual thing. Granted they don't face all the same obstacles, but they're still easy targets for all the same reasons.

"There was a point when I was so depressed with everything that was going on, the pressure of society, that I was addicted to sleeping pills."

*sigh* I have been formally diagnosed with depression.

I've been bullied.
I've lost all of my friends.
I've been disowned by my whole family.
I live in paranoia of an ailment which could reappear any day and cripple me.
I live alone and scramble to sell enough of my favorite possessions to pay my rent.
And I work a disgusting job which requires me to clean up the poop and vomit of people I have no respect for.

You couldn't handle some harassment? At 19 years old I most definitely knew the goddamn ramifications of overdosing!

So... I know this section was prefaced with the whole 'I'm not the saying this so you'll feel sorry for me' bit, but you can't put that on transgenderism. You can't just say 'transgenderism is too much' and use your lack of restraint towards a completely unrelated drug as an example. That's like if I went:


"Alright, just one more piece and I'm all done!"

*Blitz by Digitalism starts playing on the radio*

"Oh yeah, this is my jam!"

*jumps up to dance* *bumps table* *puzzle pieces scatter all over the floor*

"Aw man, this puzzle is just TOO MUCH."

"And of course you have these thoughts that run through your mind about committing suicide..."


Look, I understand that transgenderism may be the reason you're getting harassed, and I even understand that suicide attempts are frighteningly common among transgenders, but transgenderism is not the cause of your suicide attempts, nor is the harassment.

It's SUDDEN AND EXTREME LACK OF SELF-PRESERVATION. And if you were committed to that idea, this video wouldn't exist. You'd be dead. So, AGAIN, you had a moment of weakness. That's all on you.

You can blame society all you want for it's blatantly unfair treatment of you, that's fine, you're entirely justified in that, but I have never been able to empathize with people who act like society almost killed them because they attempted suicide in defense of something society doesn't like. Society didn't put the sleeping pills in your mouth, you did. They're not to blame for your poor decisions.

"I don't know, you know, anyone who doesn't come across these thoughts transitioning, cause it's so tough and so much is put on your back."

By you. It's tough because you're making it tough. I mean really, I know that sounds cruel, but think about it:

According to every statistic I can find, transgender people are TWICE AS LIKELY to attempt suicide than RAPE VICTIMS. And you don't have to paint a target on your back to be raped, rape victims aren't all come hither, legs spread, oops I dropped my keys, guess who forget her underwear.

I'm not saying transgenderism incites harassment or violence, but you're an absolute fool if YOU'RE NOT EXPECTING IT after living in this world for 19 YEARS. So consider this: think about how many rape victims would avoid being raped if they knew when it would happen and they could prevent it by cutting their hair/dressing differently/speaking normally.

Think about that. Transgenders have a HUGE amount of control over how much negative attention they draw to themselves and yet they try to kill themselves over TWICE AS MUCH as people who've been raped!? Melodramatic much?

"People don't understand what it's like to wake up in the morning, look in the mirror, and don't see yourself."

No I don't, because it sounds like existential nonsense.

"How would you like it if you woke up in another body that is not yours?"

Is THAT what it's like?


If not that, then I could only conclude that I must be suffering from some sort of memory loss or disassociative disorder.

IN FACT, upon looking up this thought I discovered a particularly interesting blog by a transgender who goes by Walt Heyer:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Walt Heyer
Transgenders, 4 Studies Say It's Mental Disorders

Perhaps it's time to pound the drums more loudly than ever about what I think as the greatest medical fraud in our nation’s history. 30% of transgenders commit suicide because their mental disorders remain undiagnosed, and as such will not be treated.

I have long held that individuals who suffer from gender distress have one of handful of unresolved mental illnesses that exists side by side with their gender stress. The gender distress is not acting alone but binds with an additional co-morbid mental illness. “We found 90% of these diverse patients had at least one other significant form of “psychopathology” says a study reported in 2009 by the Department of Psychiatry, Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio. The psychopathologies they found in their study were “mood and anxiety regulation and adaption in the world”. (1)

Everywhere we see the constant rhetoric about gender change success and yet not one sound media report that acknowledges 30% of transgenders commit suicide because of untreated mental illness.

Suicide.org states that 90% of all suicides are the direct result of untreated mental illness.
He goes on to elaborate on comorbidities, the health risks of hormone blockers at an early age, and the dangers created when doctors are encouraged to push for costly sex changes instead of diagnosing other pre-existing conditions.

I'll be honest: I don't know how much of it is true, but if it is, it certainly explains a LOT.

"So we are 5 days away from my surgery and so many things are running through my mind at this point. I've been waiting so long, for the rest of my life for this day, and it's finally here... in 5 days. Imagine how much is going on in your mind, okay? And I had issues with my family and my boyfriend and it was just way too much for me to handle at that time. And I was just so stressed out, I was worried about my surgery: Am I going to be fine? Am I going to be okay? What if I die? What if this happens? And on top of that I was just arguing with my boyfriend. So I had a... a mental breakdown, I literally just snapped, my breaking point was reached and I just could not handle it anymore, I was way too stressed out and at this point, you know, arguing with my boyfriend [babble] why this was happening 5 days before my surgery. I just didn't know what to do. That night I remember texting my little sister saying 'I love you, I love you and your sister, please take care of her for me, um, I'm sorry' and I honestly just had a mental breakdown and I just cried so much and I wanted to kill myself. I opened the balcony door and I was about to jump off."


Right, so... when faced with a dilemma concerning an upcoming surgery the logical solution is NOT to cancel or even delay the surgery, but immediate suicide. What was so immutable about this surgery that it could not be rescheduled?

My favorite part is her line about the surgery killing her:

"I was worried about my surgery: Am I going to be fine? Am I going to be okay? What if I die?"

I feel watching this video should not be reminding me of Rooster Teeth's first episode of Halo Fails of Weak when Jack says "You can't kill me, I suicide!"

"...my boyfriend stopped me and the police came and I was taken away for a mental health act. Because I wanted to kill myself."

You're acting like that was the wrong thing to do.

"I guess I was just under a lot of stress about everything that's going on, I mean it's a lot to handle: going to surgery, family, arguing with your boyfriend..."

...Mental illness... "I guess I was just under a lot of stress" is what you say to apologize after you just yelled at someone, not after you almost dashed your brains on the parking lot below your balcony.

"This journey, it's not... it... it-it takes a toll on you, physically and mentally..."


"Depression is a serious thing and it happens to most of us."

Well that's quite a change from saying "There's not one transgender person or one LGBT member who doesn't go through depression".

Last edited by Dogma; 10-02-2015 at 10:05 AM.
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#47 Old 10-03-2015, 10:14 AM
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Who was saying that? Society, with its debate about public bathrooms.

Counselors are taught to never, ever say, "I understand," unless you personally had the same experience as the client. Claiming you understand is actually insulting when you don't, and it's a lie.

This is because humans can't 100% understand things they don't experience. We can learn, grow, sympathize, tolerate, not judge, listen, support, etc.

We decide who to support etc. based on our knowledge, experience, morals, and societal influences.

My knowledge etc. tells me I should support transsexuals, so I do. That doesn't mean I 100% understand.
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#48 Old 10-03-2015, 06:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imagineaa
Who was saying that? Society, with its debate about public bathrooms.
Oh, I thought you were referring to someone in the thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by imagineaa
This is because humans can't 100% understand things they don't experience. We can learn, grow, sympathize, tolerate, not judge, listen, support, etc.
Judging is an extraordinarily dangerous thing NOT to do. Heck, this thread wouldn't exist if I wasn't intending on making judgments based on the discussion. Hell, Veggieboards wouldn't exist if people didn't make judgments at all. IN FACT, if we refused to make judgments humans would almost certainly be significantly less intelligent than most any other animal on the planet.

"Judgment" is the hot-button word that people like to use, but it's an incredibly poor one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by http://ethicsstupid.com/ethics/dont-you-judge-me/
In the part comedy-part philosophy series, My Name is Earl, Hickey sets out to reform his ways by making a list of all his past wrongs, and one by one, correct them. Number 74, “Always ruined Joy’s Christmas,” has Earl trying to win a new car for his ex-wife in order to make up for his poor gift choices while they were married. However, what the episode is really about is how easy it is for each of us to tell a little “white” lie and expect others to keep it secret by whatever means necessary, all for keeping the peace at Christmas.

When Earl discovers that his wheel-chair bound, kidney-disease-ridden ex-mother-in-law really has a gambling addiction instead of multiple disabilities, she punctuates her guilty rational with a time honored expression that becomes a mantra throughout the show: “Don’t you judge me!”

While the bible reminds us to “Judge not, lest ye be judged,” when it comes to ethics “non-judgmentalness,” ethicist Michael Josephson points out, “is simply an exchange of moral blank checks. I promise not to judge you if you promise not to judge me.”

It's absolutely worth considering something like transgenderism/transsexualism from all angles to make an accurate judgment of it, because upon inspection, it DOES appear out of place among LGB, and if these articles I'm finding are anything to go by, it could actually be quite damaging to many people if we just lump it in with the rest of them.


So to be perfectly honest, NO. I AM going to judge you, just like I'm going to judge everybody else I meet, to the best of my ability, based on all of the information I can safely accumulate. Because only THEN can I get an approximate understanding of someone. You shouldn't expect to know anyone entirely, save yourself, but you can get close, and the only way you're going to do that is by making judgments.


Quote:
Originally Posted by imagineaa
My knowledge etc. tells me I should support transsexuals, so I do.

Based on this thread, I think it would be irresponsible to say "i support transsexuals" in such a broad way. As far as I can tell, they seem arbitrarily tied to LGB issues, and if in fact mental health is a pervasive coalescent, then I don't think it would be productive to encourage what could be an ongoing blindness to a very serious issue, not the least of which by pinning all transgenders and transsexuals under the same banner.
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#49 Old 10-16-2015, 04:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dogma View Post


Judging is an extraordinarily dangerous thing NOT to do. Heck, this thread wouldn't exist if I wasn't intending on making judgments based on the discussion. Hell, Veggieboards wouldn't exist if people didn't make judgments at all. IN FACT, if we refused to make judgments humans would almost certainly be significantly less intelligent than most any other animal on the planet.

"Judgment" is the hot-button word that people like to use, but it's an incredibly poor one.


Wait a minute, how that I missed your spiteful response to my video?
I wrongfully assumed that the topic was over, but you came up with even more catty comments.
But you are wrong, no offense, but you really mistake avoiding to admit the homonymy of the word 'judgement'... I may be an illiterate in English, but 'judgement' comes from Latin, and it is a word corresponding in many European 'tongues'. It has definitely two senses, and for sure not just one. You, little cunning mister here, you just use words to fit your ideas, in detriment of the others. But you have no right to judge-judge, no one. You have the right to judge-think.
And I finally understand the reason you opened this thread, is to just bring some black stains into the image of transsexuality/transgenderism because you have something personally against this thing.

Well, , I do not mind, not so bad, you have your reasons to be critique and spiteful, but make it obvious from the beginning so people can know what they get into.
I mean, I feel very frustrated, while I tried to be really honest to you, to be open, and to help you to [supposedly] understand what transgenderism means, as you were so much in keen to find out.
But you used me, and my words, to draw even a more black picture over the T community. It is not fair sir.
I trusted your judgement as fair and just. But you are bias in return.
I don't know the reason you feel so frustrated about the trans people, but I tell you is wrong.
And the way you 'translated' my guide video, is just unfair.
You really don't know anything about Julie Vu. For to make such bad assumptions.

She is coming from a very poor family, her parents emigrated from Vietnam, while she was still very little, and her father worked as a sailor to support the family. And when she grew up her mother that was alone at home with the children, she has been very violent to her, because her parents were not coming from an open minded nation, they were very bad about this 'weird' thing 'disease' named 'transsexuality'. And she had to give up school, to really fight her father that hit her and been very much violent to her trying to make her act as a normal son they wanted to have. And that is simply selfish, but they were the adults, so in their mentality/education, their needs were above the children. But anyway, she took a job, she spent months trying to learn the best how the make up art is made, and then put on her whole will to present convincingly to the biggest 'make-up' sale shop in Canada where she's been hired as a sales person. And then she bought a video camera, and started to post minutes from her life on the YouTube, and she became pretty much liked, and that brought her the chance to get paid by posting more videos, that she did. And these videos, in which she's been very frank and open, and people appreciated much her transparency and natural spirit and strong will to accomplish her desire to become a complete woman, these helped her to make enough money to pay for all the necessary in the transition. Including the so expensive SRS, and breast implants etc.

Yeah, she really worked for her money, and her fancy style now, is just the way she likes to 'spoil' herself, after all she's been through. And, if you ask me, she deserves it, she earned it.
She is one of my biggest heroes, to be honest. I viewed some of her transition videos, and the way she has been determined and fighting, really encouraged me. Because if was not Julie Vu, I was less appreciative with myself, and the inner goals, than spending a lifetime trying yo please the others. **** all the others! Is just yourself. Dot.
So please, stop putting stains into my hero's picture, while I brought her to you to make you favor, but you simply entered with your muddy boots over my good intentions.
I don't even want to speak with you about this subject, you really hurt my feelings by treating this topic so easy and sarcastic.

You should consider in the first place you have no right to put this question, what trans means, while you are not finding yourself at all into the scheme. Is not much place for other people into trans people's lives. Because only trans people can understand trans people. Simple.
But if you want to know a secret, just close your eyes, and forget trans are actually born guys, or girls in that case, just let them be, and you feel as they are. Because if you can understand women in general, then is easy to understand trans women. They are women, they feel, and act, as possible, as women. The same, but in opposite considering, with the trans men.

And please, stop offending me, and my community, just by being intentionally not enough rational.
We don't have to ask for permission to exist, if some don't like us, just to turn their eyes away, is simple. Is wrong to believe trans women 'sexually' attack virile men on the streets, and other places, to 'rape' them etc.
We may like men, but just as normal as women do, yes, we have preferences as well, and we don't jump into no one's belt. We are too pleased with our own accomplishments during transition for to think there is anything else around. And if we do see something around that we may like, we just don't jump to have it, to steal it from normal women.
Relax, people, we are logical beings too, we're not animals.

Okay, enough, all the best. And not to hear any more other bad words. Deal?.. If you want me not to get angry, because when I get angry I make it obvious, and it writes in cutting words too. You're not the only one can play so well with words. I never told you but I've studied language and literature in university, not with English my first language, but still I have enough vocabulary bullets in my memory case to fight back in need of real defensive.
Cheers then. Peace out.

Last edited by cris gabi; 10-16-2015 at 04:29 AM.
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#50 Old 10-16-2015, 07:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cris gabi
Wait a minute, how that I missed your spiteful response to my video?
BIG POST INCOMING!

Actually, Cris, it was not spiteful, merely my honest reaction. "Incredulous" is more accurate.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cris gabi
I wrongfully assumed that the topic was over, but you came up with even more catty comments.
But you are wrong, no offense, but you really mistake avoiding to admit the homonymy of the word 'judgement'... I may be an illiterate in English, but 'judgement' comes from Latin, and it is a word corresponding in many European 'tongues'. It has definitely two senses, and for sure not just one.
Please, enlighten me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cris gabi
You, little cunning mister here,
*snicker*

Quote:
Originally Posted by cris gabi
you just use words to fit your ideas, in detriment of the others. But you have no right to judge-judge, no one. You have the right to judge-think.
O_O What... does that mean?

*scans rest of post*

You're not going to tell me? You're going to tell me I'm wrong and not tell me why?

Quote:
Originally Posted by cris gabi
And I finally understand the reason you opened this thread, is to just bring some black stains into the image of transsexuality/transgenderism because you have something personally against this thing.
Really? I... thought I very clearly articulated that I have nothing against transgenders or transsexuals, they're just obfuscated by conflicting ideas, confusing perspectives, and make-up. It's seriously just something I've been thinking a lot about over the past few weeks and decided to open a topic about to see if someone could explain away my confusion, hence the title.

Now, if I have anything against ANYBODY, it would have to be Princess Joules because I violently hate anybody who calls me a Sunshine Sparkle Face.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cris gabi
Well, , I do not mind, not so bad, you have your reasons to be critique and spiteful, but make it obvious from the beginning so people can know what they get into.
Your passive aggressive smiley face is not reassuring.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cris gabi
I mean, I feel very frustrated, while I tried to be really honest to you, to be open, and to help you to [supposedly] understand what transgenderism means, as you were so much in keen to find out.
But you used me, and my words, to draw even a more black picture over the T community. It is not fair sir.

Again, you misunderstand. Your explanations have been largely vague and esoteric. I can hardly divine any serious footholds for discussion from them. You've provided me multiple videos and I've responding to them exactingly in multiple parts. If you have issues with some of the things I've said, please respond to them, don't handwave my whole post as an insult.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cris gabi
I trusted your judgement as fair and just. But you are bias in return.
I don't WANT to be biased. If I am, tell me why!

Quote:
Originally Posted by cris gabi
I don't know the reason you feel so frustrated about the trans people,
I'm really not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cris gabi
but I tell you is wrong. And the way you 'translated' my guide video, is just unfair.
I didn't translate anything, I responded to exactly what she said. There wasn't anything unfair about it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cris gabi
You really don't know anything about Julie Vu.
And you do because you've seen more of her videos than me? Come on, Cris, THAT'S not fair.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cris gabi
For to make such bad assumptions.
What "bad" assumptions? Please! Tell me! What do you have to say about my comparison to rape victims? What do you have to say about Walt Heyer? What do you have to say about lizardfolk? Come on!

Quote:
Originally Posted by cris gabi
She is coming from a very poor family, her parents emigrated from Vietnam, while she was still very little, and her father worked as a sailor to support the family. And when she grew up her mother that was alone at home with the children, she has been very violent to her, because her parents were not coming from an open minded nation, they were very bad about this 'weird' thing 'disease' named 'transsexuality'. And she had to give up school, to really fight her father that hit her and been very much violent to her trying to make her act as a normal son they wanted to have. And that is simply selfish,
I totally agree, that's terrible.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cris gabi
but they were the adults, so in their mentality/education, their needs were above the children. But anyway, she took a job, she spent months trying to learn the best how the make up art is made, and then put on her whole will to present convincingly to the biggest 'make-up' sale shop in Canada where she's been hired as a sales person. And then she bought a video camera, and started to post minutes from her life on the YouTube, and she became pretty much liked, and that brought her the chance to get paid by posting more videos, that she did. And these videos, in which she's been very frank and open, and people appreciated much her transparency and natural spirit and strong will to accomplish her desire to become a complete woman, these helped her to make enough money to pay for all the necessary in the transition. Including the so expensive SRS, and breast implants etc.
A-Alright, that sounds like a success story alright, I'm not getting why it's relevant.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cris gabi
Yeah, she really worked for her money, and her fancy style now, is just the way she likes to 'spoil' herself, after all she's been through. And, if you ask me, she deserves it, she earned it.
Alright, I suppose, sure. She can wear all the make-up and stenciled eyebrows she wants, I just have a problem with stereotyping women is all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cris gabi
She is one of my biggest heroes, to be honest.
I can see why you're being so defensive then. Her underdog success certainly sounds like an inspiring story, BUT that doesn't mean she's any sort of role model or even remotely sensible. She's how far away from this one goal she's always wanted and decides "Nah, I was thinking of becoming a woman, but a PANCAKE, now that's what I wanna be."

I'm free to criticize that without insulting you, Cris.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cris gabi
I viewed some of her transition videos, and the way she has been determined and fighting, really encouraged me. Because if was not Julie Vu, I was less appreciative with myself, and the inner goals, than spending a lifetime trying yo please the others. **** all the others! Is just yourself. Dot.
So please, stop putting stains into my hero's picture, while I brought her to you to make you favor, but you simply entered with your muddy boots over my good intentions.
Talk about fair, Cris, you can't just hand me a video and say "Maybe this will help you understand." and then get upset when I say "I don't understand."

That's like if I was in a cage and I asked you for the key and you handed me manacles instead.

"Uhh... Cris, these are nice, but kind of the OPPOSITE of what I'm looking for."

"What!? They're beautiful manacles! Look at how shiny they are!"

"No, I agree, they're quite shiny, they look very comfortable too, but I was hoping to get OUT of this cage."

"UGH!! I gave you these manacles hoping you might better APPRECIATE your little prison, but now you throw THAT in my face!?"

"You know, now that I look at them, these manacles are kinda dirty."


Quote:
Originally Posted by cris gabi
I don't even want to speak with you about this subject, you really hurt my feelings by treating this topic so easy and sarcastic.
That wasn't my intention. Srsly im srry.

Sarcasm, yes, but hurting your feelings, no.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cris gabi
You should consider in the first place you have no right to put this question, what trans means,
Now THAT I take extreme offense to. YOU have no right to tell me what I can and cannot question, Cris. I'm a curious human being (maybe) that sincerely wants to learn and understand this cluster**** of a concept. You're telling me a transvestite has no place asking about transgender issues? REALLY?

Quote:
Originally Posted by cris gabi
Is not much place for other people into trans people's lives. Because only trans people can understand trans people. Simple.
You might of saved me a thread and several videos if you actually believed that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cris gabi
But if you want to know a secret, just close your eyes, and forget trans are actually born guys, or girls in that case, just let them be, and you feel as they are. Because if you can understand women in general, then is easy to understand trans women. They are women, they feel, and act, as possible, as women. The same, but in opposite considering, with the trans men.
Cris, how to act around them was never the topic, the topic was about society's schizophrenic inclusionary/exclusionary description of them as well as how transgender/transsexuals describe themselves.

In fact I find THIS video to be helpful:


"All I'm saying is just to be mindful of the other person and making them feel comfortable in public and just be aware of your surroundings..."

Makes absolute total sense. I agree with everything she says.

"But after a few times you just have to put your feet down and say, you know, this person not respecting me and my change, I obviously don't look like a boy anymore so I don't understand why how you can look at me and call me a 'him'."

Ummm... Well, actually it's not necessarily a respect thing, Joules, there are 'hers' who look like stereotypical boys and 'hims' who look like stereotypical girls. That applies to myself as well, and guess what? I don't correct them. Reason being that gender-specific pronouns are one of the most uselessly stupid inventions of mankind next to daylight savings time and Alien 3. They don't. F*cking. Matter.

"That just angers me so much to the point where I just wanna punch you in the face, like I'm not an abusive, an aggressive person..."

O_O Okay, I don't care if you don't have a history of violence, it doesn't justify assaulting someone over their grammar.


You getting this, Cris? I'm not insulting YOU... I just have a problem with some of the things she says.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cris gabi
And please, stop offending me, and my community, just by being intentionally not enough rational.
*throws up hands* Are you done yet?

Quote:
Originally Posted by cris gabi
We don't have to ask for permission to exist, if some don't like us, just to turn their eyes away, is simple.
Are you done yet?

Quote:
Originally Posted by cris gabi
Is wrong to believe trans women 'sexually' attack virile men on the streets, and other places, to 'rape' them etc.
You done yet?

Quote:
Originally Posted by cris gabi
We may like men, but just as normal as women do, yes, we have preferences as well, and we don't jump into no one's belt.
Ya done yet?

Quote:
Originally Posted by cris gabi
We are too pleased with our own accomplishments during transition for to think there is anything else around. And if we do see something around that we may like, we just don't jump to have it, to steal it from normal women.
O___O

Quote:
Originally Posted by cris gabi
Relax, people, we are logical beings too, we're not animals.
O___O

Quote:
Originally Posted by cris gabi
Okay, enough, all the best. And not to hear any more other bad words. Deal?.. If you want me not to get angry, because when I get angry I make it obvious, and it writes in cutting words too. You're not the only one can play so well with words. I never told you but I've studied language and literature in university, not with English my first language, but still I have enough vocabulary bullets in my memory case to fight back in need of real defensive.
You have a remarkable habit of taking arguments way too personally and then trying to rap up every text wall rant with a not entirely believable wink and a smile.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cris gabi
Cheers then. Peace out.
We cool, then? Or do you still think I'm out to smear **** in your face?

Last edited by Dogma; 10-16-2015 at 07:33 AM.
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#51 Old 10-16-2015, 02:07 PM
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"I have enough vocabulary bullets in my memory case" just about killed me. I dig it!
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#52 Old 10-17-2015, 05:27 AM
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Maybe it would help to explain it like this: transgender women are women, always have been women, always will be women. They were born with a male or intersexed body that doesn't reflect to everyone else that they are women, and so by default they are not treated that way and it is socially unacceptable for them to be that way. It is not the same as a desire to cross dress nor is it feeling the desire to be more feminine in some parts of their lives, like fashion or cosmetics. They CAN choose to transition, that is a choice. The alternative is dysphoria, which is in this case an extremely distressing dissatisfaction with their body. Transitioning can be done by just living as a woman, using hormones, and/or getting surgery. Sometimes it can be alleviated without surgery, sometimes it can't and surgery is the best option.

If you can look at the way transgender people are treated, even in the first world, and think about how many people choose to transition anyway, it might give you an idea of what gender dysphoria is like.

There is a school of thought that views this as an illness because one's mind cannot accept the body or life they are in. Even so, the most effective treatment we have for it is transition.

The history of the T in LGBT mostly comes down to who was around during the Stonewall Riots and the fact that T does lead to questions and public disapproval of ones sexuality even if you are straight as the gender you identify as.
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#53 Old 10-17-2015, 06:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GinaJuice
Maybe it would help to explain it like this: transgender women are women, always have been women, always will be women.
But... they... aren't. They kinda lack some of the necessary clockwork inside that makes them... women. By definition.

The only way this makes sense is if you define women as a cluster of stereotypical traits, which I honestly just take offense to.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GinaJuice
They were born with a male or intersexed body that doesn't reflect to everyone else that they are women, and so by default they are not treated that way and it is socially unacceptable for them to be that way.
They're not women though...

Quote:
Originally Posted by GinaJuice
It is not the same as a desire to cross dress nor is it feeling the desire to be more feminine in some parts of their lives, like fashion or cosmetics.
Oh really? Please, do tell.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GinaJuice
They CAN choose to transition, that is a choice.
W-w-w-well okay, b-but... you kind a just skipped over the part I wanted to know.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GinaJuice
The alternative is dysphoria, which is in this case an extremely distressing dissatisfaction with their body.
Oh... is that it? How is that distinguishable from poor self esteem?

Quote:
Originally Posted by GinaJuice
Transitioning can be done by just living as a woman,
I'm pretty sure women live a lot like men just with a few more trips to the bathroom, a bigger underwear drawer, and the whole baby thing.

Other than the bigger underwear drawer, I'm not sure you can simply opt into periods and pregnancy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GinaJuice
using hormones, and/or getting surgery. Sometimes it can be alleviated without surgery, sometimes it can't and surgery is the best option.
So... transgenderism is just a fancy synonym for a sort of dysphoria which can be caused by...


That mental illness argument is starting to look more and more convincing, I must say, but I highlighted two particular conditions here which I think are of particular interest:


Quote:
Originally Posted by Wikipedia.org
Body dysmorphic disorder (BDD), also termed body dysmorphia or dysmorphic syndrome, but originally termed dysmorphophobia, is a mental disorder via obsessive preoccupation with a perceived defect in one's own appearance, viewed as so severe as to warrant exceptional measures to hide or fix it. In BDD's delusional variant, the flaw is imagined. If the flaw is actual, its importance is severely exaggerated. Distinguished from anorexia nervosa, BDD is categorized in the obsessive–compulsive spectrum.
A fairly common mental disorder, affecting some 1% to 2% of the population, BDD usually starts during adolescence, and affects men and women roughly equally. In fear of being thought vain, persons experiencing BDD tend to keep the preoccupation secret, and BDD is severely underdiagnosed. Severely impairing quality of life, BDD can lead to social isolation and involves especially high rates of suicidal ideation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wikipedia.org
Body integrity identity disorder (BIID, also referred to as amputee identity disorder or "transabled") is a psychological disorder in which an otherwise healthy individual feels that they are meant to be disabled. BIID is related to xenomelia, "the oppressive feeling that one or more limbs of one's body do not belong to one's self".
BIID is typically accompanied by the desire to amputate one or more healthy limbs. It also includes the desire for other forms of disability, as in the case of a woman who intentionally blinded herself. BIID can be associated with apotemnophilia, sexual arousal based on the image of one's self as an amputee.
Let me pose and entirely reasonable question: Why aren't people with BDD or BIID respected and encouraged, but transsexuals are? Just like transgenders, they're compulsively driven to remake or even unmake themselves in some way, even going so far as surgery which will inhibit some major functions of their body.

If we can raise a toast to somebody who wasn't comfortable until they had a penis grafted on, then why don't we see the same for people who hate their left arm?

Quote:
Originally Posted by GinaJuice
If you can look at the way transgender people are treated, even in the first world, and think about how many people choose to transition anyway, it might give you an idea of what gender dysphoria is like.
I imagine it's quite like insisting on bringing your Power Rangers lunchbox to school.

Seriously though, this just reminds me of those suicide statistics.
And that reminds me of melodrama.
And melodrama reminds me of Princess Joules.
And Princess Joules reminds me that false nails are still a 'feminine' thing.
And that depresses me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GinaJuice
There is a school of thought that views this as an illness because one's mind cannot accept the body or life they are in.
Well, quite frankly that's the most straightforward description of transgenderism I've heard yet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GinaJuice
Even so, the most effective treatment we have for it is transition.
And that means...? Hormone therapy? Egh... I don't know about that. Treatment implies a cure or a remission of an existing condition. Are you suggesting that dressing like the opposite gender, taking hormonal injections, and getting MASSIVE cosmetic surgery will resolve their gender dysphoria? Because that seems more like feeding the problem.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GinaJuice
The history of the T in LGBT mostly comes down to who was around during the Stonewall Riots and the fact that T does lead to questions and public disapproval of ones sexuality even if you are straight as the gender you identify as.
I... suppose that makes sense. It's still the odd one out though by a HUGE stretch, you gotta admit.

Last edited by Dogma; 10-17-2015 at 06:57 AM.
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#54 Old 11-14-2015, 01:30 PM
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Can Someone Explain to Me: Transgender/Transexualism?

I haven't read through this entire thread so I'm really sorry if this has already been pointed out.

There are at least three components of what makes someone male or female or intersex:
1. Chromosomes
2. Hormones
3. Genitalia

All three must be in sync for someone to be "fully" male or female. At least 1% of the population has some variation, eg male chromosomes and genitalia but no/ little male hormones. There are all kinds of variations. And within each of those components there's variation too. So... Sex is not a black and white type of issue. There's a lot of gray in between.
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