There have been a couple posts recently where I see a real disconnect between some members relatively new/curious about the vegetarian/vegan lifestyle/movement and those who have been veg/vegan for a very long time. I also see some potentially "explosive" points of potential misunderstanding where offense may be taken but was not intended. I'm certain others have been noticing it as well, so I figured I'd bring it up. A few recurrent things I have noticed:

Newcomers:

- A tad on the "overly passionate" side in regards to activism
- A tad on the defensive side/easily taking offense in terms of support and/or answers and/or opinions they are seeking and may not be hearing what they were hoping
- Very clearly still quite traumatized by the new information they are learning and a bit sensitive in general to animal welfare issues (we've ALL been there)

Old timers:
- A bit "rough" on the newcomers
- A lot jaded to the issues facing animals and/or vegetarians/vegans, have an arsenal of facts/opinions and have their debate points down pat
- Very set in their stances/views on certain issues/topics
(I'll admit, I know I can be a little too much "harsh" on the truth aspect and not enough delicate in the wording aspect)

I don't think anyone on this forum is deliberately trying to offend or be rude or come across as overly sensitive or extremist, but I think there should be a open discussion about how to "shore up" the disconnect between long time vegetarians/vegans and new veg/vegans or those who are curious. I think it would be beneficial for everybody so information, opinions, advice and debates could be more beneficial and helpful to all (and try to keep misunderstandings to a minimum!)

I've noticed this, too (and undoubtedly contributed) and am open to suggestions.

Please don't take this as oversensitivity, but I am a relative newcomer to veganism and also this forum.
I think I will be speaking on behalf of many newcomers when I say that I will be far less likely to speak openly about topics and how I feel in future and its because I will be far too worried about coming across as you have said in this post.

It's a shame because I would imagine there are many different types of people, from many different types of background who have joined this group for a variety of different reasons. Not just two groups.
But by creating two such distinct groups and basing it on experience, your going to make people who have either just started on their journey, have posts few in number, or who have a relatively recent join date feel like their views and opinions might be seen as childish, oversensitive or dramatic.


I would like to think that the threads were enough of a learning ground, where the newcomers overly passionate activism as you call it would become channelled into the most effective approach by the "oldtimers" as their experience, knowledge and wisdom would eventually influence the newcomers way of thinking.

But I guess for now its back to not posting, and just reading what others say again, so I don't come across as uneducated..

I know you probably had the best intention when creating this thread, but by splitting the forum in two I cant help but feel you have potentially made the situation worse.

Please don't go back to being silent! I agree with you, there are many different people who contribute to this forum and come from many different experiences. Frankly I often have no idea who is a "newcomer" and who is "experienced" unless they say something about it. I also know a few longtime vegans who are extremely vocal and passionate about the cause, and I would hardly label them overly passionate, nor would I label them complacent. Newcomers have a lot to teach oldtimers as well, and their desire and curiosity and new found passion is something to be grateful for, especially in a world full of meat eaters who just don't care. Newcomers give me hope that the world is slowly coming around and I welcome their input! I had the same desire and enthusiasm when I went vegan and it has kept me going over the years! And oldtimers don't always have the answers either, and aren't always wiser than newcomers. I really dislike labeling people this way too and setting up groups like this. It shouldn't be hard for us ALL to get along and respect one another.

As an "oldtimer" I agree with Naturebound. VB (and veg*nism) needs new members all the time, and it would be really boring if it no new points of view were introduced!

Please post, everyone! I may bring the hammer, but it will be soft and done in a nice way...

I'm an oldbie, feeling like a newbie because I know just about as much about veganism as someone who's gone vegan overnight; while it took me five years.

Keeping an open mind is key I think, and that goes both ways. Oldbies shouldn't think they know it all because they're in the movement for so long, and newbies shouldn't get discouraged just because some longtimers do ''better'' than them.

Don't be too quick to judge, but encourage. The encouraging atmosphere here has definitely helped me to eventually make the switch.

Instead of not posting, why not explain and discuss how those who come across as offensive (who in no way intend to be) can participate without fear of offending people/making people feel they are being "attacked" but not feeling like they have to compromise their own feelings and thoughts? Maybe it has nothing to do with how long someone has been vegan in all cases, but there are clearly different personality types on here and it would be a shame for (anyone) to fear posting their true opinions and feelings out of fear- whether that may be fear of being judged harshly OR fear of people misinterpreting you trying to be helpful as "rude" "hostile" and "being a troll".

The point of this post was to bring up NO ONE should feel they shouldn't be posting just because their style of writing, thinking, thought, opinions, feelings and/or experiences are too different from everyone else, whether that be on the softer or rougher side of things. There has got to be a way for everyone get along without certain people being forced to mask how they feel. I have not been posting as much on this forum on actual vegan-related topics in past weeks because I fear being misinterpreted for having a slightly less idealistic, more jaded/harsh opinions. That "gentle emotional support" thing is not me, but I have a lot of knowledge and advice and experience that could be very beneficial to share still. Should I feel unwelcome/unwanted in discussions of vegan topics because of my preference for more "straight up" (factual or honest opinion) answers as opposed to softening it up a bit?

When I went vegetarian, my experience was that of 0 support, absolutely no one/where I could turn to for support and endured an excessive amount harassment, intimidation and general torment over it. My experiences shaped my opinions, my knowledge and the advice I feel beneficial to offer to others. Does that make my posts less valid because some come into this in a 'world' where they have communities online that offer gentle encouragement, support, and society in general is more accepting of "different" types of people? Does that mean perhaps people like me shouldn't post? It's starting to feel that way. I was *hoping* to figure out solutions we could all work on so no one is feeling left out or like they don't matter because they are different.

I think working on snap judgements is definitely something to work on!

How does one define "encouragement" though? What may be encouraging and helpful to one person may come across in an entirely different way to another. Would prefacing with things like "in my personal opinion" be helpful? Perhaps try to read between the lines a little and see if the poster seems to have the personality type your style of encouragement would be beneficial to, and if not, don't post?

Just asking questions since you've brought up 2 good points we could explore further

I understand what you mean, but, we're a bunch of people. It's hard when you're new anywhere because you don't see the nuances, the different sides to people.
It's really the same for older members responding to new posters. They take the post at face value where if it were from someone they were familiar with, the words would be tempered with familiarity.Like 'gee, they sound like they're having a bad day, or maybe they just had a bad experience'. When you meet someone new, on both sides, you have nothing else to go on. I've certainly reacted to a brand new post in a way I regretted and have tried to correct myself. Sometimes I wish people would edit posts when they've changed their views.

I recall one regrettable post I made to someone who felt judged because she liked the processed foods. I basically said so do I and that no one was being judgemental and she should toughen up. She left. I felt badly, mostly because then I realized exactly what she saw!

On the one hand, we need to be nice, but then to, this is a forum where we speak what can;t be spoken elsewhere! Sometimes I think we all take advantage of that and vent way more strictly on our opinions than we really feel when challenged.

Another thing is we get jaded by -you know- 'trolls'. It takes a while to figure that out. Like when we get threads like 'would you eat if you had to'. Yeah, we tend to brace ourselves! The last time though, it became a very interesting discussion, and I ended up feeling very wrong for how I judged that poster, and said so.

But like everything else, we're an assorted bunch.
"Life is like a box of chocolates, you never know what you're gonna get"

Oh, and @SeanSmith -- you get in here! Ask questions, give opinions, give your views and temper what you get back. I remember feeling negatively about some members that I grown quite fond of after finding more of why they feel as do.

Some of us are straight talkers, some of us are more gentle, some are new and some are older members. We all have things in common or we wouldn't be here. The majority of us are vegetarians or vegans for ethical reasons. We are here to get information, advice, ideas and support from like-minded people. It doesn't mean we're all going to have the same personality but above all else, we're all here for pretty much the same reason. Older members can help us newbies out with their knowledge while younger members can bring an energy that maybe gets a bit faded with time and habit kicking in. We'll all calm down eventually once we figure it all out but that energy CAN be useful.

I think one thing is to respect other people's decisions and lifestyle choices even if they differ from your own. I actually don't see a lot of judgement around here. It's good to share information without a judgemental tone and then let that person make up their own mind based on their own moral sensitivities and research. Then hopefully other people can see that a person is just stating facts, and not get overly sensitive about what those facts suggest.

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk

I am a new vegan who enjoys the discussions. Yes there is conflict at times but it is to be expected. Ive recently started a blog about my journey. https://venusvegan.wordpress.com/201...m-as-a-choice/

As a newbie to this forum I'll be happy to be share my experience here and my comfort level. I'm not new however to internet forums as I'm a moderator on a spiritual forum and have been a bit of a turbo poster on a motorcycle forum. So my shy factor is probably not what a newbie may be here whose new to internet forums. One of the things that I noticed, that worked for me, is to become a buddy to a new member just like when we would transfer to a new school as a child and the teacher would ask someone in the classroom to show us the ropes. Reach out to the new one, become friendly personally and who knows; you might make a true friend out of them.

I'm an old timer. I've been a vegetarian for 20 years. I've gotten all types of comments. However, I'm also a realist, so I expect all types of comments from non-vegetarians/vegans. When I get these comments, I either (1) ignore the comment if it's coming from a truly ignorant person or (2) reply with a generic comment if I feel the person may just not know what they're saying.

You will lose the battle immediately if you argue with an ignorant person.

For people that have open minds, discussions are great! There are two viewpoints in every argument. Of course, we think the one believe in is the better viewpoint, but the other person has the opposite belief. If we can discuss these issues like normal people, rather than making ignorant comments back and forth, maybe we can make some light bulbs go off in peoples' heads. The point of a discussion is to discuss.

If we're so set in our ways that we can't even discuss, then why even join the conversation? Don't. It'll be better for everyone if you don't join in.

I'd like to say that sometimes people get pretty darn defensive over an opinion. Or, they may state something in such a way that makes their opinion sound like fact, when it's just an opinion. Emotions play a big part in a lot of the comments and discussions on here.

I saw this the other day, and it immediately made me think of some of the responses I've seen on here over the past few years. I'm not trying to offend anyone, but sometimes I personally think people go too far with their comments or their attempt at comparisons.

I had a meateater post that cartoon on my facebook. I didn't think it was funny or nice either time.

I guess some of us newbies are kind of shy, eh? Personally, I find that my approach to anything is usually far too harsh. In fact, I can be very insensitive thanks to factors of my upbringing, which I'm trying to work on by being around more compassionate types.

So, yea, I don't post much (yet) because I'm "feeling it out" so to speak.

P̶l̶u̶s̶ ̶I̶'̶m̶ ̶k̶i̶n̶d̶ ̶o̶f̶ ̶z̶a̶n̶y̶. O_o

I'm glad that that's all you took away from my post. Supports my point that people are too emotional on here. We need to learn to relax just a little with our responses. Otherwise, this community will just be a bunch of people who are all afraid to say anything lest we be judged by each other. (Or, we'll drive all the "newcomers" away and we won't have any new ideas or discussion. Frankly, some of the discussions on here get pretty repetitive.)

Also, we need to learn to laugh at ourselves. While this is a joke, it's also making a serious point. My initial reaction was similar to yours--I didn't think it was funny. However, the more I thought about it, the more I both (1) laughed at myself for sometimes getting too serious and (2) kept my own reactions in check regarding people's ignorant comments.


ETA: Also, seriously? Calling someone a meateater in a derogatory manner? We're all humans, some just have differing opinions. Next time someone calls you a nickname that you don't like, just remember what you call others.

Maybe the individual in question was, in fact, a meat eater and was posting the comic to poke fun at vegetarians. That's how I read the post (and the comic.)

I was using the term "meateater" as a fact, not an insult. They eat meat. What I meant by my post is that we vegans get insulted, questioned, ridiculed, etc IRL and on other places on the web all the time. This site is a refuge from the real world of 95% meateaters, and I don't love seeing non-funny cartoons making fun of vegans posted here. In our refuge.

If you think that is too "emotional", sorry to offend. I've been defending my, my son's, and my disabled husband's choices to be vegan for over a decade now. It gets old.

to be a meat eater is a disgusting life choice and i do consider meat eaters to be lesser human beings !

i guess i'm one of those horrible crazy newcomers, huh?

As for the comic, I saw it as a comment on those in the AR movement who take action without any consideration of the animals they are supposedly liberating or otherwise helping.

No one thinks newcomers are crazy or horrible. We welcome all vegetarians, especially the new ones, for making a big life choice and change!

Well, when someone refers to "others", and especially those who are doing exactly what that same person was doing until very recently as "lesser", then I for one think that there's more ego than compassion at play.

I admit that I have little patience for those who use veg*nism simply as another scorecard to publicize their own superiority, and I also have little patience for dogmatists in any area of thinking/philosophy. Unfortunately, it's apparently a human trait to be especially prone to exhibiting those very traits when on is a recent convert to any cause, whether it is animal rights or religion, exercise, weight loss, etc. IME, the more a newbie to veg*nism exhibits these traits, the less staying power they seem to have.

That's how I read it, too. But sometimes, we need to poke fun at ourselves. It's often hard to do that... Believe it or not, we, too, can go too far. It happens all too often. Part of the reason this thread was created.

Of course we get insulted, questioned, ridiculed. We get offended when this happens, sometimes rightly so, sometimes not.

But, why do we then hand out this same insult, query, and ridicule right back to omnivores? There's a vicious cycle that needs to be broken. We can close our eyes and keep repeating the same argument over and over, but it'll be in vain. We can break the cycle. I've found myself saying the following a lot lately (at least to people that I have to deal with on a daily/semi-daily basis), "I understand your perspective, I don't agree with it, but I understand it."

Just because I understand someone's viewpoint doesn't mean I have to agree with it. However, it helps me with future discussions, because I now know where they're coming from. A thorough counter-argument makes sense in discussions (as long as it's fair and objective), because it shows that you're a reasonable person that has considered both sides of the debate. It makes your argument stronger and more persuasive.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not offended. But if you have to constantly defend your family's choices, you're doing something wrong.

If this site is going to be a 'refuge' where we bash anyone and everything outside of our own view, then this site sure doesn't sound like a 'refuge' to me.

Yes, and you don't help public perception.

Agreed.

Agreed.

i am not new to being a vegetarian, and in fact my fervor has grown over the years.

i dropped meat at 18 years of age and never looked back

I find it to be much more complicated than that. True, "liberators" may help lab animals who are the offspring of domesticated species "escape" onto the streets of a major metropolitan city that is really a huge concrete jungle where the animals have no reasonable chance of survival on their own.

But it's much deeper and multi-dimensional. This cartoon, whether or not intended by the author, demonstrates the complete and utter lack of understanding of non-vegans who wonder aloud what would happen to all the cows if we stopped eating them. The inability of many people to visualize the long-term reduction in suffering that would result in a world in which cows are not raised for food is intertwined into this simple cartoon about a goldfish. They don't stop to ask where the goldfish came from, nor do they realize that this particular fish exists only because a human being bred the fish in captivity for the purpose of financial profit. They merely look at the goldfish in the current moment and decide that keeping the fish in a small bowl is the best option available, because "any life is better than no life."

I don't insult meateaters; I just answer their questions about mine and my family's nutrition ad nauseum. Now that my son is a strong, athletic, brilliant, successful adult, things are easier. What can they say to a black belt, kind, funny, brilliant 6- foot vegan man? When he was a kid, I was on the defensive quite often. And my husband suffered a severe traumatic brain injury years ago, so I have been criticised for "starving" him, although he is extremely healthy and of normal body weight and chooses to be vegan.

I don't call them "omnivores" because humans are all omnivores. I don't call them "carnivores" because they are not. They are omnivores who eat meat, thus meateaters. Not an insult in my book.

What is offensive to me is your telling me I have been "doing it wrong"'all these years. Have you raised a vegan child? Feed daily an adult family member vegan and be criticised for it? Do you know me? Ever come to one of my work potlucks with my vegan offerings? Ever had one of my red velvet vegan cakes that I give to friends/coworkers for birthdays? Were you one of the many kids/teen friends of my children that I fed vegan in my home? That is how you convert others.

Ever heard me insult a meateater? I don't. I feel that you are making generalizations about vegans that are not true. Substitute a religion, race, gender, or disability for veganism and it would be considered bigoted the insults that fly. Just suck it up, even on the vegetarian forum. Mmmmmmmkay.

And... out of this thread, it is not my refuge.

I understand your perspective, I don't agree with it, but I understand it.

the problem is man, out in the real works we wouldn't be able to function while constantly being in battle with meat eaters.

I believe that's why most of us don't confront them. For one, we'd be isolated and ganged up against in a argument we'd never win.

Second, however much right we maybe, they'll just call us crazy and ignore all arguments against meat eating, citing our perceived craziness. (which might be counter effective)

I see is it as why most veg*s rarely confront others in real life(this is what I see from anecdotal evidence)

There's still too many meat eaters in the world for us to force them to change their ways. (unlike racism or homophobia)

Thank you for explaining my issue with that comic much more eloquently than I could have!