Vegans Against Veganism - VeggieBoards
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#1 Old 08-27-2015, 11:39 AM
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Vegans Against Veganism

I am going to express some opinions here that others may not be happy with. I feel as though many vegetarians and vegans are doing more to get animals murdered than any omnivore could ever dream of doing. It seems as though many are foaming at the mouth so to speak, desperately waiting for an opportunity to judge someone for being "not as moral" as themselves.

I've seen countless examples of this but here's the latest one I've seen on a vegan FB group that I frequent. Someone made a defense of omnivores:

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Some people are unaware of the extent of the problem. They're against animal cruelty, but they're ignorant. They can fall for the meaningless USDA labels, thinking they mean the animals are actually being treated nicely. "Cage free, free range". Or they can live in an area where abstaining from meat and dairy is almost impossible. Or they could care about animals but not enough to change their behavior. If you drive a truck, does that automatically mean you don't care about the environment? If you smoke cigarettes, does that mean you don't care about your health and want to die young? Oh and there are also those who are uneducated and think that you'll die/get really sick if you don't eat meat/animal products. but other than that, I've met so many people who've told me: "yeah, I know it's bad, but it's not convenient for me right now to go meatless. I don't have enough willpower to do so, considering all of the other things that are going on in my life." And it's a big change to make. There was a big gap (years) between when I found out about the horrors and knew it was wrong to when I actually made the switch. Did you go vegan after your first factory farming video?
Immediately group flamed, labelled an apologist and then permanently banned from the group. I promptly left the group after seeing this.

I see these sorts of things online all the time. Every successful belief system I've ever heard of has a way of drawing in other people. Christians, for example, are encouraged to "Hate the sin, not the sinner." This approach is successful in drawing in people who may otherwise have no interest in that religion.

If someone considers going vegetarian or vegan, and you push them away, you are partially responsible for the THOUSANDS of animals that the person will eat from in their lifetime. In my personal life, I strive to treat omnis with as much respect as I would anyone else. I want them to think vegans are naturally polite, respectful people. Perhaps then, they just might admire me enough to consider that change in their own life.

I wanna say that not everyone does this, although that's blatantly obvious. I'm not pointing fingers at anyone here, I just want to see if others have noticed this trend as well. I think it is extremely important to bring this up, given some of the activities that I've seen recently.

Last edited by Zack; 08-27-2015 at 03:51 PM.
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#2 Old 08-27-2015, 03:47 PM
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I moved it for you. It's in the Heap.

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#3 Old 08-27-2015, 03:51 PM
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Thank you. Appreciated.
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#4 Old 08-27-2015, 03:58 PM
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I'm all about going "all in", but no one is perfect - and as long as someone is HONEST about their struggles then there is hope. We should encourage those that are fighting the good fight, after all our biggest enemy is ourselves and we will certainly be tested in our own willpower.

Better to be compassionate, supportive, and forgiving than end up being a hypocrite once it's your turn to take a fall - that is what I've learned anyways, we all fall down at some point. Only the strong get back up and better themselves from it.
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#5 Old 08-27-2015, 04:02 PM
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ah yeah - vegans like this give veganism a bad name. It's tricky, as vegans can too easily jump onto people very quickly - i call them stuck up vegans :P they rant or argue rather than educate and teach. People need to speak logically and peacefully to others. I also have noticed vegans speak down to others a lot as though non vegans are below them. But this is simply not true as we are all equal. But yeah it's not just vegans that do these things, it's just some people.
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#6 Old 08-27-2015, 04:20 PM
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Well, I wonder if there were more than a couple of 'Mmm bacon' comments in that Facebook group that weren't censored. It seems to me that there are a lot more people making fun of/baiting/disparaging vegans than there are vegans being dicks to people.
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#7 Old 08-27-2015, 05:02 PM
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It seems to me that Zack is questioning certain kinds of vegan messaging rather than veganism per se.

Which is healthy and something we should do. I really wish that instead of banning the poster the folks on that board would have talked to them.
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#8 Old 08-27-2015, 05:08 PM
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There's so much much overlap of omnivores that help animals, reduce their environmental impact, and limit the amount of meat. There are vegetarians who replace meat with cheese and eggs and don't care much about other ethical concerns. And, there are vegans who wrap themselves up so tightly in that title that they see nothing else. They don't often seem to have anything else

There are so many people out there who have what I can term justifiable reasons for not being vegan. I recall a thread on the vegan forum from someone whose husband hosted business lunches and travelled and found it very difficult to keep vegan. He allowed himself occasional fish depending on the situation. I could totally relate, but it became a thread full of hostility.

Considering there are what, 2% of Americans, that are vegan, I don't think burning bridges or abolishtionist thinking is helpful
If some ones on the fence about giving up eating animals, or supporting entertainment, I can see where they could be pushed back off by those high and mighty all or nothing people

I was at a festival with my son and stopped to speak with the local AR group. My son said he cut way back on eating meat. the man totally goes off on him, then turns to me and says "you better watch out, he may eat you next". then he says to himself "thats the first I said that. yeah, that's good". I was so turned off and angry by his approach I couldn't bring myself to join them for their next event. I don't want to part of such toxic people

Michael Pollan has produced much awareness of the plight of animals and our complicity
Silk seems to have brought non dairy milks onto store shelves, into homes and replaced dairy for many children
Morningstar Farms has become a staple
None of the above are vegan, but they've brought change. Change to our next generation
And that's more important than if you accidently ate gelatin
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#9 Old 08-27-2015, 05:46 PM
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Originally Posted by LedBoots View Post
Well, I wonder if there were more than a couple of 'Mmm bacon' comments in that Facebook group that weren't censored. It seems to me that there are a lot more people making fun of/baiting/disparaging vegans than there are vegans being dicks to people.
This is a strong point you make. However, I think this may simply be a matter of proportions. The vast majority of humans are omnis, so even if a small percentage of them are rude about it, we have to deal with it on a regular basis. However, vegetarians and vegans are a rarer breed of human. So, someone may only engage in a conversation (on the internet or in RL) once in every great while. I think that this makes it even more worthwhile to leave a good impression.

I may be totally wrong about this, but it seems like a higher percentage of vegans/vegetarians are dicks about it than omnis. Perhaps the examples I've seen don't reflect the general population, though.

@silva : Thanks for the post, I couldn't agree more.

Last edited by Zack; 08-27-2015 at 05:49 PM.
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#10 Old 08-27-2015, 06:19 PM
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This is a strong point you make. However, I think this may simply be a matter of proportions. The vast majority of humans are omnis, so even if a small percentage of them are rude about it, we have to deal with it on a regular basis. However, vegetarians and vegans are a rarer breed of human. So, someone may only engage in a conversation (on the internet or in RL) once in every great while. I think that this makes it even more worthwhile to leave a good impression.

I may be totally wrong about this, but it seems like a higher percentage of vegans/vegetarians are dicks about it than omnis. Perhaps the examples I've seen don't reflect the general population, though.

@silva : Thanks for the post, I couldn't agree more.
I don't agree with the higher percentage thing. Being so few, and not even knowing who around you may be vegan, the ones that oftne leave an impact get remembered. The other thing to consider is that omnis don't have any reason to fight. They're not victims.
However, it is something we each need to consider.

I remember saying in a thread that it was comparing my beliefs to someone who is passionately opposed to abortion. To me, what happens to a womans body should be no ones business but her own. to me a fetus is not a life. To others, once it starts it is a life, and no one should interfere with it's development (although they do regardless...) Anyway, I said the best agree to disagree situation was that both sides should work on promoting birth control. the vegan police ticketed me, because--animals suffer and that's proven, but the other side is wrong. Something like that... anyway,.

What you say about thinking there are more rude judgemental vegan than omnis reminds me of the extreme right in their stance that gays and liberals are taking over this country
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#11 Old 08-27-2015, 06:49 PM
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Or they can live in an area where abstaining from meat and dairy is almost impossible. Or they could care about animals but not enough to change their behavior. If you drive a truck, does that automatically mean you don't care about the environment? If you smoke cigarettes, does that mean you don't care about your health and want to die young? Oh and there are also those who are uneducated and think that you'll die/get really sick if you don't eat meat/animal products.
My issue with these arguments is they aren't comparable. Sometimes you can't afford to move, but there are always vegan options even if your supermarket does not carry expensive meat and dairy replacements. You may drive a truck for a living, so even if you care about the environment you have to continue driving. Smoking cigarettes pretty much does mean you don't care too much about your health, especially if you are not trying to quit.
But choosing to be vegan is a personal choice, and it is one of the best things you can do for the environment. All vegans I've known are very respectful of non-vegans and would never push their beliefs on them. Yes, we have people like Freelee but I think a very small percentage of vegans are "stuck-up vegans." Most of us are doing it for ourselves, and keep it to ourselves. I've had many bashing comments made to me, about protein, about bacon being amazing and that I'm crazy giving it up. But the second I talk about the moral reasons I switched, people get offended. It has made veganism a very hard conversation to have. I think people just need to choose to educate themselves and make the decision themselves to switch. Trying to educate someone won't really get you anywhere unless they want to change their ways.
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#12 Old 08-27-2015, 08:42 PM
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In short, I feel vegans who think everyone would go vegan too if *only* they watched some documentary or read some pamphlets live in la-la land. They tend to be relatively new to veganism and have not yet become 'jaded' by the reality of how animal products and use of animals has permeated the fabric of society. Their "passion" (which often comes across as aggression and/or "crazy" to omnis) does the vegetarian/vegan movement no favors IMO, even though their hearts are in the right place. Not to mention not everyone possesses the same level of empathy for other living beings, some may not care or be misinformed about the environmental impacts of factory farming and/or their personal health too. Someone who is fine with killing animals for food (may even do so themselves, in the case of hunters/fishers) will likely not be convinced to adopt a plant based diet. Someone who believes human caused climate change is a scam and that not consuming animal products will make them sick will also be extremely difficult, if not impossible to convince otherwise.

I personally believe being respectful of omnis is always a good call and to NOT, under any circumstances, engage in non-constructive discussions, arguments or debates that will go nowhere. It is better to simply say nothing at all for those looking for a fight. I also feel promotion of "reducitarianism" and "flexitarianism" to be much more appealing options to the general public that may more people would be willing to try, as they are not perceived as "extreme" as vegetarianism/veganism are, yet could lead to the person eventually adopting a meat-free or vegan diet.

For example, my husband does not find it wrong to kill animals for food, he just doesn't. He does however find factory farming appalling and believes Americans eat to much meat/too many animal products lead to poor health. He has something of a "flexitarian" diet now, where he is mostly vegetarian who consumes the occasional meat or animal product from sources he finds acceptably "ethical". Will he ever go vegan? I doubt it, but my quiet leading by example and sharing information in a constructive, non-demeaning way has convinced him to DRASTICALLY reduce his meat/dairy/egg consumption over the years, which he would have likely never otherwise done. Same with several of my friends and in laws- none went veg, but many have began sourcing their animal products differently and reduced their consumption of them because I lead by example and was able to have productive, respectful, fact-based discussions with them about it WHEN THEY ASKED (I simply don't bring it up). Before my hubby met me, he assumed all vegetarians and vegans were aggressive whiners who beat you over the head with pamphlets depicting animal abuse. I think it's a very common view shared by the omni community. I support changing that perception by adopting common sense, respectful methods of interacting with omnivores and I think the vegan movement would gain a lot more ground and you'd see a WHOLE lot of change in farming if more people like my husband adopted less animal products from better living conditions.

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#13 Old 08-28-2015, 01:44 AM
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Personally, the only time I speak at length about veganism to non-vegans at all is when I confront those online who come to vegan pages just to justify animal abuse. I don't feel that meat-eaters deserve my "respect" anymore than a dog abuser or a child abuser does: that is, I obviously don't threaten or attempt to harm them, but I have no problem saying plainly that what they're doing to these victims is cruel. I have no patience for people who see a vegan post on their Facebook timeline and feel the need to comment about how bacon tastes good, as if that's an acceptable justification for torturing and killing someone. It absolutely boggles the mind.

That said, I act much differently when dealing with non-vegans in person. If someone I know asks me a question, I answer it as gently yet truthfully as I can. I generally don't bring up veganism otherwise. The people I love most in this world eat animal products, so I'm fully aware that most meat eaters aren't heartless *******s but just normal, regular people who have managed to distance themselves from the abuse. I only snap at them about what they're eating if they make a thoughtless comment about my food.
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#14 Old 08-28-2015, 02:27 AM
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When I went vegan there was no one around me who was vegan or even vegetarian. I would have known next to nothing about it had it not been for someone who didn't keep it to themselves, but instead wrote a book about it, spoke out about it in documentaries etc. Of course, I was looking for information at the time because I was interested in where my food came from and in how to solve world hunger. Otherwise I might never have "accidentally" found information on what it means to be vegan and why. I think vegan activists get criticized by other vegans a lot too and this surprises me, because every cause needs a voice. Look at former cattle rancher Howard Lyman, who now speaks publicly around the world on behalf of animals. If HE can change 180 degrees, who can argue with that?

However, the vegan police deal is something I too get frustrated with. Being called out as not vegan enough for a variety of reasons does not help the cause and creates distraction within our movement. I live with an omnivore for example, and at least one vegan online told me I was not vegan or that it must be "gross" to kiss an omnivore. Seriously? Am I supposed to walk away from a 17 year relationship because he doesn't share my exact ideals and isn't exactly like me? Or because he hasn't gone vegan overnight like I did? This kind of criticism will not cause me to run back to being an omnivore by a long shot, but if a new vegan or someone contemplating it sees this sort of thing online, they may think about our motives as vegans and find a lot of total hypocrisy.

I think one reason why some Christians are so successful at pulling in people is that they tend to accept people where they are and work with that instead of having an expectation of others to be perfect Christians on day one. Belittling someone for not going vegan overnight with comments such as "why drag your heels" does absolutely nothing positive for the cause. People come from a variety of circumstances and struggles and it is not our place to judge them so harshly without truly understanding them. There are also vegans who spend their entire time trying to be pure and perfect and avoid every tiny speck of animal ingredient or product, while ignoring the compassion, love, and activism this world so desperately needs. Going after the big offenders such as factory farming and animal agriculture will do a lot more for the cause than chiding someone for wearing old leather shoes or using a teaspoon of cane sugar.

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#15 Old 08-28-2015, 03:06 AM
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If you do judge the meat, dairy and egg industries to be as bad as slavery/the holocaust etc then surely being passive about it is a bad thing.

I'm sure most vegans would put factory farming on par with those other great tragedies and without people like Gary Yourofsky shouting from the rooftops about it there's no way it'll ever end.

I've only been vegan a few months so I don't feel confident or knowledgeable enough to go head to head with friends/family/strangers in a omni v herbi debate, I am learning every day.

I do find it very hard not to reply to certain Youtube comments though, particularly the one's that have clearly been posted by trolls to try and antagonize vegans.
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#16 Old 08-28-2015, 06:28 AM
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[
@silva :

The other thing to consider is that omnis don't have any reason to fight. They're not victims.
this
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#17 Old 08-28-2015, 06:49 AM
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I am going to express some opinions here that others may not be happy with. I feel as though many vegetarians and vegans are doing more to get animals murdered than any omnivore could ever dream of doing. It seems as though many are foaming at the mouth so to speak, desperately waiting for an opportunity to judge someone for being "not as moral" as themselves.

I've seen countless examples of this but here's the latest one I've seen on a vegan FB group that I frequent. Someone made a defense of omnivores:

Quote:
Some people are unaware of the extent of the problem. They're against animal cruelty, but they're ignorant. They can fall for the meaningless USDA labels, thinking they mean the animals are actually being treated nicely. "Cage free, free range". Or they can live in an area where abstaining from meat and dairy is almost impossible. Or they could care about animals but not enough to change their behavior. If you drive a truck, does that automatically mean you don't care about the environment? If you smoke cigarettes, does that mean you don't care about your health and want to die young? Oh and there are also those who are uneducated and think that you'll die/get really sick if you don't eat meat/animal products. but other than that, I've met so many people who've told me: "yeah, I know it's bad, but it's not convenient for me right now to go meatless. I don't have enough willpower to do so, considering all of the other things that are going on in my life." And it's a big change to make. There was a big gap (years) between when I found out about the horrors and knew it was wrong to when I actually made the switch. Did you go vegan after your first factory farming video?
Immediately group flamed, labelled an apologist and then permanently banned from the group. I promptly left the group after seeing this.

I see these sorts of things online all the time. Every successful belief system I've ever heard of has a way of drawing in other people. Christians, for example, are encouraged to "Hate the sin, not the sinner." This approach is successful in drawing in people who may otherwise have no interest in that religion.

If someone considers going vegetarian or vegan, and you push them away, you are partially responsible for the THOUSANDS of animals that the person will eat from in their lifetime. In my personal life, I strive to treat omnis with as much respect as I would anyone else. I want them to think vegans are naturally polite, respectful people. Perhaps then, they just might admire me enough to consider that change in their own life.

I wanna say that not everyone does this, although that's blatantly obvious. I'm not pointing fingers at anyone here, I just want to see if others have noticed this trend as well. I think it is extremely important to bring this up, given some of the activities that I've seen recently.
i wrote the quote in this post lmao. Hi babe! <3 u actually wrote a post ranting about this omgggg
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#18 Old 08-28-2015, 06:03 PM
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you know what though, I'd rather see a person be a stuck up vegan than a polite omnivore.
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#19 Old 08-28-2015, 09:31 PM
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you know what though, I'd rather see a person be a stuck up vegan than a polite omnivore.
Sometimes I feel that way too....

But other times I think, what does acting that way achieve? Other than further reinforcing the idea that once we stop eating meat we get a deficiency in being a normal human being. But then anyone who's a stuck up vegan is no different to me than someone who's a stuck up carnist.
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#20 Old 11-30-2015, 03:14 PM
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Slavery was not ended by politely asking people to give up their slaves.

The Haitians did not win freedom from the French by asking nicely.

The USA did not defeat the British with kind words.

Women did not win the right to vote by being submissive.

Civil rights activists did more than try to convince people they were equal.

Gays didn't win the right to marry by pleading and whining.



Why do we insist we will liberate animals by making the ethics "a choice"? We've tried making beliefs a choice, and it's called religion. Does everyone belong to one religion? No. To create rights for animals, people need to become adamant, people need to protest, and people need to create conflict. It's part of the process. You don't need to be like "BECOME VEGAN"! but you CAN do something like organize a sit-in at a steakhouse or you could become a hunt saboteur. These are better ways, because they send clear messages. You do this with (verbal) force, not with niceness. Yes, I have repelled people from becoming vegan, but I also have shocked people very well. And as we all know, shock causes people to think. Veganism DOES NOT come from other people suggesting it, and if it does, it's VERY short lived (I know this VERY well from experience). It comes from within. The more you shock, the more you scare, and the more you rouse people, the more likely they will come to that conclusion themselves.

You can watch this TED talk on the subject. It details why some protests work and others don't.
https://www.ted.com/talks/yoruba_ric...ights_movement

This is another site which outlines the philosophical argument against the "conversion" tactic.
http://fortheabolitionofveganism.blogspot.com

^Don't be scared by the name "for the abolition of veganism", because he IS a vegan, but simply has a different... style. You'll see.
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#21 Old 11-30-2015, 03:21 PM
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People have different personalities. Ranters do get the message out there, whether you like it or not. PETA demonstrations used to physically attack people who wore fur. Getting people's attention is a JOB, a valid one, in this society of TV zombies.

I'm not saying it's constructive to go around demonizing omnis, on the street or among friends and family, but ranting vegans draw attention to more calm, objective information about veganism.
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#22 Old 11-30-2015, 03:29 PM
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Honestly I don't think it's completely valid to draw a comparison between veganism, which had fact behind it - multiple facts - and Christianity, either, which is a matter of faith.

Though Christ is assuredly the best example of leading by example or teaching the ethical side, vegan martyrdom is foolish in a world where a vegetarian or vegan diet can literally save our environment and people's health, not just animal rights.
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#23 Old 11-30-2015, 04:57 PM
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If you do judge the meat, dairy and egg industries to be as bad as slavery/the holocaust etc then surely being passive about it is a bad thing.

I'm sure most vegans would put factory farming on par with those other great tragedies and without people like Gary Yourofsky shouting from the rooftops about it there's no way it'll ever end.

I've only been vegan a few months so I don't feel confident or knowledgeable enough to go head to head with friends/family/strangers in a omni v herbi debate, I am learning every day.

I do find it very hard not to reply to certain Youtube comments though, particularly the one's that have clearly been posted by trolls to try and antagonize vegans.

It's not just about reason, anyway. If people were mostly reasonable they wouldn't do many of the things humans do, from sexual affairs to over spending to eating junk food....I read a really great article on how things like eating and habits are visceral, so reason alone won't affect many personalities, people who are led by either appetite or sentimental tradition are very hard to move with facts.

While I agree that every single vegan acting like a ranty crazed person won't be effective, these people frankly aren't seeing the big picture of how things like sales, culture, and revolutions happen.

The bottom line is that we need BOTH to have an effective change.
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#24 Old 11-30-2015, 05:30 PM
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I think it is normal to have a strong reaction towards something we are morally against. Mention killing a dog, most people wouldn't be happy about it. They would even say that they should die for what they've done. Mention a cow being killed, and someone mentions that it's just as wrong - most people get offended. I think there needs to be people who point out that killing living sentient beings is wrong, even if it is uncomfortable for some people to hear that what they're doing is not moral.
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#25 Old 11-30-2015, 05:37 PM
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I am just vegetarian with really no thought of getting into veganism just yet. I know I was personally turned off for a long time of being vegetarian because of the "crazy" vegans. I was also turned off by PETA and their assaulting people wearing fur. My only thought at the time, even though I don't own and will never own fur, is if you do that to me we will both be in jail you for assault and me for attempted murder. It was an all or nothing type thing with them and I was not having it. I just say do what you can do to make a difference and maybe it will inspire others to do the same. Everyone has their reasons as to why they are vegetarian or vegan. There is no need to judge each other to see who tows our imaginary line. I don't really think that the militant attitude is the way. I was once an Omni, who am I to judge as a Christian and vegetarian about where you are. I try to educate when the chance for dialogue comes up and if not I just live my life and that is an education to the people in and of itself.
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#26 Old 11-30-2015, 06:17 PM
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I am just vegetarian with really no thought of getting into veganism just yet. I know I was personally turned off for a long time of being vegetarian because of the "crazy" vegans. I was also turned off by PETA and their assaulting people wearing fur. My only thought at the time, even though I don't own and will never own fur, is if you do that to me we will both be in jail you for assault and me for attempted murder. It was an all or nothing type thing with them and I was not having it. I just say do what you can do to make a difference and maybe it will inspire others to do the same. Everyone has their reasons as to why they are vegetarian or vegan. There is no need to judge each other to see who tows our imaginary line. I don't really think that the militant attitude is the way. I was once an Omni, who am I to judge as a Christian and vegetarian about where you are. I try to educate when the chance for dialogue comes up and if not I just live my life and that is an education to the people in and of itself.
Just because it didn't work on you doesn't mean it didn't work on others. PETA has done more for vegetarian and vegan causes than any other group in the recent past. Their tactics are varied, just like any good army, and ranges from assault, to shock, to campaigns, to calm reasonable information and compromise or bargaining.

Contrary to popular belief, Christianity did not explode because everyone was a passive martyr. There are passages in the new testament about how each individual uses their separate gifts. One of the biggest causes of social change was Constantine, who was basically a dictator.

Similarly, people did not develop their capitalist consumer habits and increase their meat consumption by pacifism. It was due to aggressive tactics.


This is too grave of a cause to say, oh we should shame and exclude all of the passionate advocates or street preachers. From an environmental standpoint, it's quite urgent.

In case you didn't know, feminism didn't take hold by calm reason. Feminists resorted to civil disobedience similar to PETA, back in the 19th century.
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#27 Old 11-30-2015, 06:20 PM
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What gets me is how much vegans divide themselves. To me, it can't just be about healthy whole foods. SAD isn't a thing just because people eat meat, it's a thing because people buy readily available, cheap foods, that's commercially produced
Look at the market for non-dairy milks Silk has obtained? They were the first commercially available soy milk, and now look at that aisle! In every grocery store!
Foods need to be mainstreamed. It needs to be seen as an alternative that doesn't impair your schedule or wallet. People don't get that.

Another thing is how we seem to think it's so obvious that we're factually right. Not really. For the vast majority they see feeling compassion for 'livestock' as a nicety, not a need. Many feel there's more evidence of God than animals needing lives of their own. they treat pets differently because they want to treat them differently, for the most part. we're not going to win by being insistent. I feel the overall practicality of veganism is what it going to take to change
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#28 Old 11-30-2015, 06:26 PM
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I have to say if I had to spend time with some of the AR people in my area they could change my mind against it, they're that nutty
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#29 Old 11-30-2015, 06:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Pirate Huntress View Post
I think it is normal to have a strong reaction towards something we are morally against. Mention killing a dog, most people wouldn't be happy about it. They would even say that they should die for what they've done. Mention a cow being killed, and someone mentions that it's just as wrong - most people get offended. I think there needs to be people who point out that killing living sentient beings is wrong, even if it is uncomfortable for some people to hear that what they're doing is not moral.

"Good decent" people didn't like being told slavery was wrong, and argued for their "individual choice" to be slave owners.

People play the individual choice card anytime you bring up absolutely anything, which in some cases is valid, but not in huge social injustices. Or destructive cultural practices like factory farming and the over-consumption of meat that are the number one cause of eminent human annhiliation via mass extinction.
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#30 Old 11-30-2015, 06:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by silva View Post
What gets me is how much vegans divide themselves. To me, it can't just be about healthy whole foods. SAD isn't a thing just because people eat meat, it's a thing because people buy readily available, cheap foods, that's commercially produced
Look at the market for non-dairy milks Silk has obtained? They were the first commercially available soy milk, and now look at that aisle! In every grocery store!
Foods need to be mainstreamed. It needs to be seen as an alternative that doesn't impair your schedule or wallet. People don't get that.

Another thing is how we seem to think it's so obvious that we're factually right. Not really. For the vast majority they see feeling compassion for 'livestock' as a nicety, not a need. Many feel there's more evidence of God than animals needing lives of their own. they treat pets differently because they want to treat them differently, for the most part. we're not going to win by being insistent. I feel the overall practicality of veganism is what it going to take to change


Vegans being divided is an excellent sign that veganism
is mainstream enough to affect different cultural and social groups...pretty much anything that achieves a world wide hold must have division by neccesity of reaching different sorts of people in different ways.

The environmental argument is our trump card, so is human starvation, not animal rights, though that's part of the holistic rational reasoning, as well as health.

Vegan chefs are my heroes because of the marketing food aspect. Everyone has their job.
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