What does everyone think of this "Ashley Madison" hack? - Page 2 - VeggieBoards
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#31 Old 08-27-2015, 08:48 AM
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OFf topic but lolz look at this.
http://www.businessinsider.com/ashle...o-women-2015-8

Seems like there was very little actual cheating if any
Those figures don't surprise me. Arranging for sexual liaisons through a venue such as AM would be a lot riskier for women than for men, so the number of men who sign up is bound to be disproportionate to the number of women.

Apparently, there are people trolling through the data dumps by the hacker(s) to check whether anyone they know was a member. Such people really do need to get a life.
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#32 Old 08-27-2015, 01:15 PM
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Agree with OP 100%. If you're in a monogamous marriage then you shouldn't cheat. It's disgusting, if you wanna have sex with other people be in a poly relationship or something
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#33 Old 08-27-2015, 01:34 PM
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Agree with OP 100%. If you're in a monogamous marriage then you shouldn't cheat. It's disgusting, if you wanna have sex with other people be in a poly relationship or something
That response greatly over simplifies the human experience and complexity of relationships.
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#34 Old 08-27-2015, 04:01 PM
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That response greatly over simplifies the human experience and complexity of relationships.
A truer thing was never said.
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#35 Old 08-27-2015, 07:32 PM
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You know what tho, I really believe sometimes it's better to live a lie than learn the truth
As someone who has spent a good portion of my life living in denial, ignoring traumatic life events/pushing them to the back of my mind and in general doing everything I possibly could to *not* address reality in an honest (to myself) way, I could not disagree more. Living a lie is *never* a good solution, even when it provides comfort and/or a perceived sense of control or stability in the moment. The truth hurts sometimes, but living a lie allows issues to fester and grow then you STILL eventually have to face the music, sometimes with far worse consequences than had you just addressed the issue at the time. Pretending something doesn't exist doesn't make it so, especially things that toy with our emotional state.

I have never cheated within a monogamous relationship, but I dabbled in a consensual open relationship in my teens (my "idea", though not one of my most brilliant ones). Perhaps it was our age, the fact I decided to do this with someone I actually cared about (and who also cared about me) and/or possibly the fact we were both so severely screwed up in general from unrelated traumatic experiences, but that "open" relationship caused an immense amount of chaos and pain in our lives. It's not the fact open relationships never work or are "wrong", it was the fact me and one of the only people in my life I ever truly trusted were denying and lying to each other and ourselves in a highly damaging, dishonest and destructive way under the pretense of honesty, openness and acceptance. I can count on one hand the number of people I've ever trusted, and I lost one of them living a lie. Though in decimating that relationship, I learned a very important lesson- stop living a lie (in all areas of my life). Once I began confronting all the things I lied and denied to myself, I was actually able to move forward in life. The distress and difficulty of actually confronting and dealing with my problems was worth the ability to let them go and beginning to allow good things in. From my understanding, the ex I was in that open relationship with has become an alcoholic and has still never confronted his demons. It's very sad to me to know he didn't take anything positive away from that awful situation.

I have a 100% honesty policy with my husband and have from day one. We chose monogamy for various reasons, but I am fully (and at times brutally) honest with my husband whenever something is bothering me. I expect him to be honest with me too (and he is). Brutal honesty is sometimes hurtful to hear in the moment, but in the long run, it has lead to us being able to work on and through problems rather than leaving them alone and reaching a point where cheating or otherwise harmful behavior becomes an attractive option. My relationship prior to and after marriage with my husband has been the only stable relationship in my life (friendships, family, or romantic) and that is because we are honest to each other and ourselves. And while I certainly hope our honest approach to marriage never puts us at a point where either of us feels the need to go outside, I would certainly want to know if he felt that need so I could either consent (and be able to make informed decisions regarding my own health and safety) or leave. I would be infinitely more upset and hurt if my husband cheated behind my back then if he approached the subject of polyamory or an open relationship openly and honestly.
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#36 Old 08-27-2015, 08:08 PM
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Living a lie is *never* a good solution, even when it provides comfort and/or a perceived sense of control or stability in the moment. The truth hurts sometimes, but living a lie allows issues to fester and grow then you STILL eventually have to face the music, sometimes with far worse consequences than had you just addressed the issue at the time. Pretending something doesn't exist doesn't make it so, especially things that toy with our emotional state.
I could not agree more, and I too speak from personal experience.
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#37 Old 08-27-2015, 08:17 PM
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People cheat for a lot of reasons. I have both cheated and been cheated on, so I have the joy of seeing this from both sides, and honestly, I think it's wrong that these people were exposed and that spouses are torturing themselves by looking through it.

I would really rather not have known that my partner had cheated on me, it ruined the relationship, not because of the initial act (him sleeping with his ex-wife while he was visiting their son), but because he felt the need to unburden himself to me which felt immeasurably cruel. I would never have known, and really, I would be fine with that. I didn't not-trust him even though he had a history of cheating, and I didn't perceive his ex-wife as a "threat." Him unburdening himself only made him feel better in the short-term and ruined the chance for both of us to live happily-ever-after with each other.
I have never cheated but have been cheated on in past relationships. My first boyfriend was a real piece of work and was one of the most truly horrible human beings I have *ever* had the misfortune of knowing (and I have known some pretty foul individuals). I will never forget the jolt of hurt, violation of trust and sadness that ran through me when I found out for the first time he had been cheating. I pretty much knew, but didn't want to admit to myself he continued to cheat the entire time we were 'together' along with pretending he didn't do all other kinds of horrible things. I was never ok with any of it, but I was pretending it wasn't happening. I 'get' not wanting to know on one hand because you don't have to face the reality of it, but I also at this point in my life view not knowing or wanting to know that kind of information as a symptom of my utter naivety and sense of idealism at that time in my life.

The way I see it, there is a huge difference between being in a consensual "don't ask don't tell" relationship and being in a relationship you *think* is monogamous and not knowing whats going on behind your back. At least with "don't ask don't tell" if you hear about him/her being out with another person (or even if you don't), you *know* he/she is seeing other people and have that choice to be ok with it. But when someone is cheating behind your back, just because you never find out doesn't mean it never happened and I don't think relationships with that kind of situation going on can ever work. One partner lives with the burden of of being dishonest, the other lives in ignorance or denial and that dynamic is not compatible with a healthy relationship. I guess in short, I find cheating removing the control and power of the non-cheating partners decision over certain aspects of their own life.
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#38 Old 08-28-2015, 07:49 AM
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I think the thing I'm finding hard to understand, from the perspective of those saying all cheating=bad and honest=good, is the theme of "without exception" that seems to run through those two thought processes.

Obviously, there are times when honesty is definitely the best way to go and cheating is a horrendous thing no one should do.

But at the same time, I don't understand the absolute nature of those thoughts when life isn't nearly that simple.

If someone goes outside of their sexless marriage, so that they can have sex, why is it a bad thing?
If being honest will tear apart a family, but being discreet will keep everyone together, why is honesty a good thing?

I just can't seem to find actual answers to those questions in this discussion.
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#39 Old 08-28-2015, 09:09 AM
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I think the thing I'm finding hard to understand, from the perspective of those saying all cheating=bad and honest=good, is the theme of "without exception" that seems to run through those two thought processes.

Obviously, there are times when honesty is definitely the best way to go and cheating is a horrendous thing no one should do.

But at the same time, I don't understand the absolute nature of those thoughts when life isn't nearly that simple.

If someone goes outside of their sexless marriage, so that they can have sex, why is it a bad thing?
If being honest will tear apart a family, but being discreet will keep everyone together, why is honesty a good thing?

I just can't seem to find actual answers to those questions in this discussion.
I don't think anyone is saying life is simple. Most people who have some years under their belt and who spend any time being introspective will know that it's complicated and messy.

If someone is in a sexless marriage, and that aspect will not change, the two good options are to either come to an understanding that the partner who wants/needs sex will be finding sex outside the relationship, or part ways.

Lies and secrets have a pretty good chance of coming out eventually (the AM hack is just a recent high profile example of this). Having the truth come out many years later just multiplies the effect. For example, just ask someone who, later in life, found out that s/he was adopted.

IMO, fissures in a relationship, no matter how much the parties try to ignore them, will be felt and will have an impact on the children. It's also not a particularly healthy life lesson to model for your children: "If something is wrong, the best way to deal with the problem is to not acknowledge it and pretend it doesn't exist."

ETA: IMO, if someone has cheated, truly regrets it, and is committed to not repeating, that person should not necessarily "confess", if the sole purpose of the confession is to lighten his/her own conscience. If, OTOH, there is a risk that his/her activity may have exposed his/her partner to risk (STDs, for example), then there is an absolute duty to deal with the situation.

IOW, I differentiate between a past, isolated, incident on the one hand and planned, prospective behavior, or a pattern of behavior on the other hand.

None of us is immune from making mistakes. But to make th same type of "mistake" over and over - then it ceases to be a mistake.
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Last edited by Beautiful Joe; 08-28-2015 at 09:20 AM.
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#40 Old 08-28-2015, 09:38 AM
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I think the thing I'm finding hard to understand, from the perspective of those saying all cheating=bad and honest=good, is the theme of "without exception" that seems to run through those two thought processes.

Obviously, there are times when honesty is definitely the best way to go and cheating is a horrendous thing no one should do.

But at the same time, I don't understand the absolute nature of those thoughts when life isn't nearly that simple.

If someone goes outside of their sexless marriage, so that they can have sex, why is it a bad thing?
If being honest will tear apart a family, but being discreet will keep everyone together, why is honesty a good thing?

I just can't seem to find actual answers to those questions in this discussion.
In the specific scenario of a sexless marriage, there is an obvious problem within that marriage structure if at least one partner wants sex and the other does not (or alternatively both spouses are no longer attracted to each other). Cheating in that scenario is like taking an aspirin to try to cure cancer. It might relieve the immediate symptoms, but it doesn't address the underlying cause and may in fact exacerbate it or if nothing else, just lets it become a bigger problem that's harder to fix. And while there aren't absolutes in the world, do you not think in the *vast majority* of situations cheating behind your partners back would not tear a family apart more destructively if/when the cheating came to light? Also, why would someone want to keep a dysfunctional marriage or family together in the first place with no intention of resolving the problems making it dysfunctional? If people *really* think children (even very young ones) can't tell when mommy and daddy are faking a big happy family dynamic they are dead wrong. That kind of thing is very damaging to children and gives them distorted views on their own perception of relationships in the future. As for why 2 adults with no children would want to remain in a dysfunctional relationship and never address their issues I don't know, but I suppose thats not really my business or problem.
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#41 Old 08-28-2015, 09:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Tiger Lilly View Post
If someone goes outside of their sexless marriage, so that they can have sex, why is it a bad thing?
If being honest will tear apart a family, but being discreet will keep everyone together, why is honesty a good thing?

I just can't seem to find actual answers to those questions in this discussion.
It's not a bad thing to find sex outside of a sexless marriage with the consent of your partner. If my husband were to feel dissatisfied with our sex life, he would have only one ethical option: talk to me about it. Then we could decide together how to proceed. I can't imagine a scenario where it would be morally acceptable to sneak around behind my back. When you say that the truth would tear the family apart, what you mean is that the non-cheating partner would choose not to be in the marriage anymore if s/he knew about the cheating, and I think that's a choice that s/he should be able to make.
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#42 Old 08-28-2015, 11:49 AM
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It's not a bad thing to find sex outside of a sexless marriage with the consent of your partner. If my husband were to feel dissatisfied with our sex life, he would have only one ethical option: talk to me about it. Then we could decide together how to proceed. I can't imagine a scenario where it would be morally acceptable to sneak around behind my back. When you say that the truth would tear the family apart, what you mean is that the non-cheating partner would choose not to be in the marriage anymore if s/he knew about the cheating, and I think that's a choice that s/he should be able to make.
I couldn't have said it better!
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#43 Old 08-28-2015, 02:39 PM
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I think the thing I'm finding hard to understand, from the perspective of those saying all cheating=bad and honest=good, is the theme of "without exception" that seems to run through those two thought processes.

Obviously, there are times when honesty is definitely the best way to go and cheating is a horrendous thing no one should do.

But at the same time, I don't understand the absolute nature of those thoughts when life isn't nearly that simple.

If someone goes outside of their sexless marriage, so that they can have sex, why is it a bad thing?
If being honest will tear apart a family, but being discreet will keep everyone together, why is honesty a good thing?

I just can't seem to find actual answers to those questions in this discussion.
Maybe communicate your needs with your partner. And if your partner cannot meet those needs, and won't let you meet them elsewhere, then you guys are incompatible.
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#44 Old 08-28-2015, 09:07 PM
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It's not a bad thing to find sex outside of a sexless marriage with the consent of your partner. If my husband were to feel dissatisfied with our sex life, he would have only one ethical option: talk to me about it. Then we could decide together how to proceed. I can't imagine a scenario where it would be morally acceptable to sneak around behind my back. When you say that the truth would tear the family apart, what you mean is that the non-cheating partner would choose not to be in the marriage anymore if s/he knew about the cheating, and I think that's a choice that s/he should be able to make.
You pretty much sum up all the responses (which are all fantastic and I thank everyone for taking the time to explain their position). Those responses make me happy because while we differ in opinion, it gives me hope that there's so many people who want or have the kind of relationship where that can be talked about. However, you all seem to have relatively healthy relationships where this can be discussed.

What about your parents? What about your friends? What about the thousands of people who aren't in those sorts of relationships? (And how do I know it's in the thousands? Well, see, there was this Ashley Madison hack that revealed the names of thousands of people on a cheating website.....)

Scenarios where I think it's morally acceptable- When your partner is withholding physical affection from you to punish you, when your partner is 'sick' (read anything from physically unable to have sex, to emotionally unable to have sex and has been that way for a long time. So, no, if your partner is pregnant or has the flu, you don't get to cheat on them because you're not getting any for a few months, you jerk) but the relationship needs to continue for financial/healthcare/you still want to be with them but if you don't have sex you're going to scream reasons, when your partner can't or won't incorporate your kinks in the bedroom.

Scenarios when I think it's okay to not be honest about it: When it will so horribly hurt them and fracture your relationship, that it's better to take the chance that they might not find out. And there are plenty of people who never find out or are happy to turn a blind eye to it.


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When you say that the truth would tear the family apart, what you mean is that the non-cheating partner would choose not to be in the marriage anymore if s/he knew about the cheating, and I think that's a choice that s/he should be able to make.
I don't want to sound callous with this response, but I think if someone makes the choice to no longer have sex with their partner, then they've already made the choice to have a partner who cheats. (There are exceptions to this rule, as with everything).

I mean, if I choose not to cook dinner, how surprised should I be if my partner decides to order out when he's hungry?

I'm all for people being empowered about sex and I think empowerment is just as much about saying no, as it is saying yes. But, what about the person in the sexless relationship who still wants to have sex? What about their needs? When did they consent to having a sexless relationship?

I don't mean any of this as a blanket defense to all cheating. No doubt there's many a profile on AM that has been made by a CPOS. But I also think anyone who decides to no longer provide sex for their partner, can't be so horribly wounded when their partner looks elsewhere and I find that aspect lacking in a lot of arguments 'against' cheating.
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#45 Old 08-28-2015, 10:39 PM
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You pretty much sum up all the responses (which are all fantastic and I thank everyone for taking the time to explain their position). Those responses make me happy because while we differ in opinion, it gives me hope that there's so many people who want or have the kind of relationship where that can be talked about. However, you all seem to have relatively healthy relationships where this can be discussed.

What about your parents? What about your friends? What about the thousands of people who aren't in those sorts of relationships? (And how do I know it's in the thousands? Well, see, there was this Ashley Madison hack that revealed the names of thousands of people on a cheating website.....)

Scenarios where I think it's morally acceptable- When your partner is withholding physical affection from you to punish you, when your partner is 'sick' (read anything from physically unable to have sex, to emotionally unable to have sex and has been that way for a long time. So, no, if your partner is pregnant or has the flu, you don't get to cheat on them because you're not getting any for a few months, you jerk) but the relationship needs to continue for financial/healthcare/you still want to be with them but if you don't have sex you're going to scream reasons, when your partner can't or won't incorporate your kinks in the bedroom.

Scenarios when I think it's okay to not be honest about it: When it will so horribly hurt them and fracture your relationship, that it's better to take the chance that they might not find out. And there are plenty of people who never find out or are happy to turn a blind eye to it.




I don't want to sound callous with this response, but I think if someone makes the choice to no longer have sex with their partner, then they've already made the choice to have a partner who cheats. (There are exceptions to this rule, as with everything).

I mean, if I choose not to cook dinner, how surprised should I be if my partner decides to order out when he's hungry?

I'm all for people being empowered about sex and I think empowerment is just as much about saying no, as it is saying yes. But, what about the person in the sexless relationship who still wants to have sex? What about their needs? When did they consent to having a sexless relationship?

I don't mean any of this as a blanket defense to all cheating. No doubt there's many a profile on AM that has been made by a CPOS. But I also think anyone who decides to no longer provide sex for their partner, can't be so horribly wounded when their partner looks elsewhere and I find that aspect lacking in a lot of arguments 'against' cheating.
I question why someone who wants sex enough they would be willing to cheat would CHOOSE to stay in a relationship with a partner who can have sex yet doesn't want to and is not ok with you seeking it elsewhere. I think lack of sex in such a relationship is telling of deeper issues of systematic incompatibility. Situations where lack of sex is due to stressful jobs, having very young kids ect... are mostly time-limited and/or the root cause can be worked on (finding a new job, cutting back on expenses so you can work less and have more free time together, waiting a year or 2 until the kids sleep through the night and aren't infants anymore, setting aside special "date nights" ext...) so a normal sex life can resume. I also believe in the case of a terminally ill spouse it is the 'right' thing to do to wait until they pass, out of respect for them (in most cases, terminally ill means months, maybe a year or two at most). Those who are emotionally unable to have sex have more than likely endured some sort of traumatic event or are suffering a mental illness. I would venture to say, given the hypothetical emotional fragility of a spouse in that scenario, cheating would be cruel and something you simply didn't do out of respect. Seeking professional help for the individual to work through their problems and professional guidance as a couple to work back to a normal relationship again while respectfully foregoing your own sexual needs during that time would be a much kinder option.

The *one* situation you pose I would be torn on is the case of a chronically ill or permanently disabled spouse you still love very much. Illness or disability is not a choice they made and not time-limited. Though I think in most (perhaps not all) situations, someone in the place of never being able to have sex again/will be unable to have sex for very extended periods of time would be understanding of their partners physical needs if the subject was approached delicately, at the right time (i.e. after enough time had passed for the person to come to terms with their illness/disability) and came with assurances outside physical relationships would not become emotionally involved. Though I could also see a situation where it was never discussed rather simply "assumed" also playing out. Chronically ill or disabled people are neither dumb (in regards to not realizing it's happening, even if it was never discussed) nor (in general) insensitive to their spouses physical needs they can no longer fulfill.

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#46 Old 08-29-2015, 02:34 AM
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However, you all seem to have relatively healthy relationships where this can be discussed.
What about your parents? What about your friends? What about the thousands of people who aren't in those sorts of relationships? (And how do I know it's in the thousands? Well, see, there was this Ashley Madison hack that revealed the names of thousands of people on a cheating website.....)
I would posit that all unhealthy relationships either need to be worked on or terminated. If cheating seems like the only possible course of action, then the relationship needs to end for the good of everyone involved. Lies and deception certainly won't improve the health of an already failing relationship. If two people are not only sexually incompatible but also so emotionally removed from one another that they're incapable of talking about it, what good is it doing either of them to stay together?


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Scenarios where I think it's morally acceptable- When your partner is withholding physical affection from you to punish you
This sounds like a symptom of a remarkably unhealthy relationship. The problem should be dealt with or the relationship should end. How would cheating improve this dynamic?

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when your partner is 'sick' (read anything from physically unable to have sex, to emotionally unable to have sex and has been that way for a long time. So, no, if your partner is pregnant or has the flu, you don't get to cheat on them because you're not getting any for a few months, you jerk) but the relationship needs to continue for financial/healthcare/you still want to be with them but if you don't have sex you're going to scream reasons
If your partner is so sick that he or she is physically unable to have sex, or so emotionally traumatised that he or she is psychologically unable to have sex, I should think that cheating would be the last thing on your mind. That strikes me as incredibly selfish, cruel, and thoughtless. A truly loving monogamous relationship is about commitment. You've made the voluntary choice to remain faithful to your partner because you love them on a level beyond the physical. When we took our vows, I didn't promise to remain true to my husband as long as he doesn't get cancer. His health, happiness, and well-being matter more to me than getting laid. If you're feeling that sexually frustrated, masturbate. Watch porn. Cheating on your terminally ill or severely injured partner isn't a morally acceptable choice. If you're hiding it, then you're doing so because you know it would hurt your partner, so why are you purposefully doing something that would hurt the person you're supposed to love most in the world? If you're not prepared to make that kind of commitment, don't get married. Plenty of people don't and there's nothing wrong with that.

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when your partner can't or won't incorporate your kinks in the bedroom.
Talk to your partner, work on the problem, or end the relationship. It really is that simple. Either the sex issues are important enough to talk about and work on, important enough to end the relationship over, or not important enough to cheat over. "But it's convenient to split rent and bills" or "but I like hanging out with him" or "but I like her cooking me dinner every night" are not acceptable justifications for cheating. You suck it up and make the tough call: what is more important to you? Then you act accordingly. You aren't entitled to everything and your partner deserves to be allowed to make her own decisions about her life. It's incredibly presumptuous for one partner to decide that he knows what's best for another adult and can make major decisions about her life without her input.

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When it will so horribly hurt them and fracture your relationship, that it's better to take the chance that they might not find out.
This is a coward's excuse. If it would hurt your partner that badly, then you shouldn't be doing it. It's your being unfaithful and deceitful that would hurt, not KNOWING how unfaithful and deceitful you are. The damage is done whether your partner is kept in the dark or not, and all you are doing by staying silent is forcing your partner to stay with someone who doesn't truly love or respect him, and keeping him from finding someone who will. Essentially, you're saying "I am the best he's ever going to do, even though I cheat and lie." That's bull.

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I don't want to sound callous with this response, but I think if someone makes the choice to no longer have sex with their partner, then they've already made the choice to have a partner who cheats.

I mean, if I choose not to cook dinner, how surprised should I be if my partner decides to order out when he's hungry?
If someone makes that choice, there's a reason-- past sexual trauma, a psychological or physical health condition-- and that reason should be discussed as a couple and dealt with, or else the relationship should end. If you truly care about someone, their happiness and health are a million times more important than your own sexual gratification. I'm honestly floored that people place so much of an emphasis on sex, to the exclusion of nearly everything else. It deeply saddens me. What happens to these couples when they get old or when their loved ones are facing difficult times? Do love and commitment really mean less to most people than an orgasm?

Food is a physiological need. Sex is a desire. The two are not comparable.

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I'm all for people being empowered about sex and I think empowerment is just as much about saying no, as it is saying yes. But, what about the person in the sexless relationship who still wants to have sex? What about their needs? When did they consent to having a sexless relationship?
When did the other partner consent to being in a relationship with a cheater? What about THAT partner's consent? Again, either the issues get dealt with or the relationship ends. If you're not happy with the relationship and unwilling to be flexible, then you leave and let your partner find happiness elsewhere. There is no excuse for cheating.

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#47 Old 08-29-2015, 10:07 AM
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I know two couples who have been in / are in an open relationship. It is not easy. It can be done but for one couple it was a thing they did for a while and now don't. For the other couple it's a thing they are exploring right now.

How do I know this? They told us (my and the fiance) about it and in one case wanted to know if we were interested. We're not that way inclined - but it's not a big deal that they are.

We've talked about it - even before the Ashley Madison scandal. It's not something that we could do - it would be a deal breaker. For him - he can't handle the thought of me being with someone else. For me an open relationship would be possible but difficult and it couldn't be one sided, it's not something I feel I have to do. The important thing is we've talked about it and why it wouldn't work for us (at least not right now - we do revisit the topic periodically).

My view is that if one cannot be in a relationship without cheating then one has no business being in that relationship. The problem isn't the relationship it's the person cheating. If the only way to handle a problematic relationship is to seek comfort outside of it - then it's no longer a relationship, it's a convenience. Everyone (as an adult) has to be big enough and bad enough to say that something isn't working and if the relationship is valuable to try to find a solution together (not in the arms of someone else).
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#48 Old 08-29-2015, 10:46 AM
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The *one* situation you pose I would be torn on is the case of a chronically ill or permanently disabled spouse you still love very much. Illness or disability is not a choice they made and not time-limited. Though I think in most (perhaps not all) situations, someone in the place of never being able to have sex again/will be unable to have sex for very extended periods of time would be understanding of their partners physical needs if the subject was approached delicately, at the right time (i.e. after enough time had passed for the person to come to terms with their illness/disability) and came with assurances outside physical relationships would not become emotionally involved. Though I could also see a situation where it was never discussed rather simply "assumed" also playing out. Chronically ill or disabled people are neither dumb (in regards to not realizing it's happening, even if it was never discussed) nor (in general) insensitive to their spouses physical needs they can no longer fulfill.
That ... makes me extraordinarily uncomfortable.

I could get into theory and analysis and cultural critique here, but it's not really the time or place. So a more visceral reaction: as a disabled person who would be interested in a monogamous relationship, I find it chilling that disability is the ONE factor that makes infidelity acceptable.

(One factor that complicates the discussion is that the topic of sex and disability is taboo.)

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#49 Old 08-29-2015, 10:55 AM
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That ... makes me extraordinarily uncomfortable.

I could get into theory and analysis and cultural critique here, but it's not really the time or place. So a more visceral reaction: as a disabled person who would be interested in a monogamous relationship, I find it chilling that disability is the ONE factor that makes infidelity acceptable.
Really, it is complete b.s. My husband of almost 29 years is disabled, and it certainly is no license to cheat!
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#50 Old 08-29-2015, 12:04 PM
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the last two guys i went out with announced almost immediately that they were in "open" relationships. needless to say that there was no second date.

this really irked me at first.

but in retrospect i am so glad that they did.

i do not wish to waste my precious life moments on a man who is interested in others. being alone is better than that, for me, at least.

i find those who wish to maintain appearances, who put up a facade of love and purity with their spouse while covertly pursuing others despicable. but it's a very common condition.

my best friend was devastated when her husband was preparing for a trip to italy. she found a bottle of viagra in his suitcase.

a lot of people are just in it for the kids, or lifestyle, or whatever.

i know for a fact that i could not live like that.
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#51 Old 08-29-2015, 02:10 PM
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I would posit that all unhealthy relationships either need to be worked on or terminated. If cheating seems like the only possible course of action, then the relationship needs to end for the good of everyone involved. Lies and deception certainly won't improve the health of an already failing relationship. If two people are not only sexually incompatible but also so emotionally removed from one another that they're incapable of talking about it, what good is it doing either of them to stay together?




This sounds like a symptom of a remarkably unhealthy relationship. The problem should be dealt with or the relationship should end. How would cheating improve this dynamic?



If your partner is so sick that he or she is physically unable to have sex, or so emotionally traumatised that he or she is psychologically unable to have sex, I should think that cheating would be the last thing on your mind. That strikes me as incredibly selfish, cruel, and thoughtless. A truly loving monogamous relationship is about commitment. You've made the voluntary choice to remain faithful to your partner because you love them on a level beyond the physical. When we took our vows, I didn't promise to remain true to my husband as long as he doesn't get cancer. His health, happiness, and well-being matter more to me than getting laid. If you're feeling that sexually frustrated, masturbate. Watch porn. Cheating on your terminally ill or severely injured partner isn't a morally acceptable choice. If you're hiding it, then you're doing so because you know it would hurt your partner, so why are you purposefully doing something that would hurt the person you're supposed to love most in the world? If you're not prepared to make that kind of commitment, don't get married. Plenty of people don't and there's nothing wrong with that.



Talk to your partner, work on the problem, or end the relationship. It really is that simple. Either the sex issues are important enough to talk about and work on, important enough to end the relationship over, or not important enough to cheat over. "But it's convenient to split rent and bills" or "but I like hanging out with him" or "but I like her cooking me dinner every night" are not acceptable justifications for cheating. You suck it up and make the tough call: what is more important to you? Then you act accordingly. You aren't entitled to everything and your partner deserves to be allowed to make her own decisions about her life. It's incredibly presumptuous for one partner to decide that he knows what's best for another adult and can make major decisions about her life without her input.



This is a coward's excuse. If it would hurt your partner that badly, then you shouldn't be doing it. It's your being unfaithful and deceitful that would hurt, not KNOWING how unfaithful and deceitful you are. The damage is done whether your partner is kept in the dark or not, and all you are doing by staying silent is forcing your partner to stay with someone who doesn't truly love or respect him, and keeping him from finding someone who will. Essentially, you're saying "I am the best he's ever going to do, even though I cheat and lie." That's bull.



If someone makes that choice, there's a reason-- past sexual trauma, a psychological or physical health condition-- and that reason should be discussed as a couple and dealt with, or else the relationship should end. If you truly care about someone, their happiness and health are a million times more important than your own sexual gratification. I'm honestly floored that people place so much of an emphasis on sex, to the exclusion of nearly everything else. It deeply saddens me. What happens to these couples when they get old or when their loved ones are facing difficult times? Do love and commitment really mean less to most people than an orgasm?

Food is a physiological need. Sex is a desire. The two are not comparable.



When did the other partner consent to being in a relationship with a cheater? What about THAT partner's consent? Again, either the issues get dealt with or the relationship ends. If you're not happy with the relationship and unwilling to be flexible, then you leave and let your partner find happiness elsewhere. There is no excuse for cheating.
I couldn't say it any better.
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#52 Old 09-04-2015, 09:56 AM
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Urgh.

My Internet decided to break, about an hour into me responding to everyone....

So, I apologise for this abbreviated version (though to be honest, this one is probably an easier/less muddled read :P)

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Originally Posted by Dave in MPLS View Post
That ... makes me extraordinarily uncomfortable.

I could get into theory and analysis and cultural critique here, but it's not really the time or place. So a more visceral reaction: as a disabled person who would be interested in a monogamous relationship, I find it chilling that disability is the ONE factor that makes infidelity acceptable.

(One factor that complicates the discussion is that the topic of sex and disability is taboo.)
Dave, yours is the one comment I really felt like I needed to answer specifically (again) because through my own short sightedness I fear I've caused you some pain. I'm really sorry about that.

Sex and disability are taboo. There's some good documentaries being made about it though (I can't remember the names of the one I saw, but it was an eye opener. I have to admit, before seeing it I didn't think about people with disability having sex or wanting to have sex). I hope there's more discussion about it in the future as the more people discuss it, I think the less of an unknown it will be to the general public.

I certainly didn't mean to suggest that if someone's partner is disabled that it's a free license to sleep around with whoever. I apologise for using the blanket term of 'disabled' to make my point of 'times when cheating is totally okay'.

I should have been more considerate with my words and I wasn't. I'm so sorry.


As for all the other replies.....

The common theme I find most interesting is the weight of importance when it comes to sex.

There's two conflicting views on it-

1. It's very important. It's so important that if you do it with a person who's not a person you're allowed to do it with, then your committed relationship (that contains many other elements other than sex) is over.

2. It's not important. It's so not important that if the person you're allowed to do it with, no longer wants to do it, then you shouldn't want to do it (and more importantly shouldn't ACTUALLY do it with anyone who wants to do it too).

The result of this seems to be that if you really want to have sex with other people but your partner doesn't want you to and doesn't want to have sex either, that you should end the relationship. So, is the takeaway that we need to be more accepting or supportive of those who end relationships that aren't sexually fulfilling for them?


I also used to believe that there was no excuse for cheating and that everyone should be able to just walk away from bad relationships. I believed that absolutely and it absolutely made me miserable, until I stopped believing it. But that's just my personal experience.
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#53 Old 09-04-2015, 10:24 AM
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Urgh.
replies.....

The common theme I find most interesting is the weight of importance when it comes to sex.

There's two conflicting views on it-

1. It's very important. It's so important that if you do it with a person who's not a person you're allowed to do it with, then your committed relationship (that contains many other elements other than sex) is over.

2. It's not important. It's so not important that if the person you're allowed to do it with, no longer wants to do it, then you shouldn't want to do it (and more importantly shouldn't ACTUALLY do it with anyone who wants to do it too).

The result of this seems to be that if you really want to have sex with other people but your partner doesn't want you to and doesn't want to have sex either, that you should end the relationship. So, is the takeaway that we need to be more accepting or supportive of those who end relationships that aren't sexually fulfilling for them?
.
It's not the act of sex itself that's a betrayal. It's that your partner wouldn't talk to you about his or her dissatisfaction, wouldn't give you the option of explaining or defending yourself, wouldn't allow you the choice to either consent to an open relationship or not. It's the deception, lies, sneaking around. If my husband isn't feeling happy in our marriage, I fully expect him to tell me that something is wrong so that we could make a decision together. I'm an adult participant in this relationship. If he were secretly spending our money gambling or drinking, lying to me about what he's doing, leaving me alone to take care of our child while he was out, it would be just as bad. If I were to start using drugs behind his back, telling him I'm going shopping when actually I'm shooting up, it would be just as bad. That’s not the mark of a good marriage.

I'm not sure what you mean about being more supportive of people who end otherwise healthy relationships because they feel sexually unfulfilled. I certainly support that over cheating! I'm still entitled to think that those people are petty and selfish, but that's just my personal opinion.
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#54 Old 09-04-2015, 09:18 PM
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I should have been more considerate with my words and I wasn't. I'm so sorry.
I'm not upset with you personally or anything (just to be crystal clear). Thanks.

----------

Ashley Madison is being hit with multiple fraud lawsuits. They had a service where they promised to wipe your records entirely from their system (IIRC they even charged to wipe them). But this "delete" worked like deleting a file on a Windows system! "Deleted" files were marked "delete", indicating they could be overwritten. The hack found a number of accounts that were still on the system but marked "delete".

The best meme I've seen on FaceBook in a long time: "There are 250,000 gay marriages in the US. The Ashley Madison hack revealed 30 million accounts. The "war on traditional marriage" is an inside job."

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#55 Old 09-12-2015, 01:53 AM
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I'm not sure what you mean about being more supportive of people who end otherwise healthy relationships because they feel sexually unfulfilled. I certainly support that over cheating! I'm still entitled to think that those people are petty and selfish, but that's just my personal opinion.
Then you must think I'm a petty and selfish person.

But I would rather be considered petty and selfish, than lie to anyone (not least myself) that I could have a healthy and happy monogamous relationship that requires me to be celibate for the next 5 decades of my life.
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#56 Old 09-12-2015, 02:33 AM
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Then you must think I'm a petty and selfish person.

But I would rather be considered petty and selfish, than lie to anyone (not least myself) that I could have a healthy and happy monogamous relationship that requires me to be celibate for the next 5 decades of my life.
Are you already in love and committed to someone, or just imagining a hypothetical partner? I can see how it would be easy to think that of someone who doesn't exist, but if you've fallen in love with someone and devoted your life to him or her and then something happens-- some accident or trauma which renders your loved one physically or psychologically incapable of having sex-- and rather than helping your loved one through this difficult time, you simply walk away from the relationship because of it then yes, I think that's petty, but it's still a far nobler thing to do than to cheat.

I honestly don't see the point of marriage if it's not a lifelong commitment based on deep love and devotion. If it's about having reliable access to sex, if sex is the primary motivation for staying together, and if the removal of sex renders the relationship unbearable, then what's the point? In my opinion, marriage is about reliable companionship. I want my husband to know that I will be here for him as we get older, that I'll care for him if he's struck with illness, that I'll always do my best to make sure he is comfortable, happy, and healthy, and that I will always consider his wellbeing along with my own when making decisions about my/our life-- and I would hope that he feels the same about me. If what I want is sex, I can easily find that anywhere. Finding someone to help me in and out of my wheelchair when I'm 90, to hold my hand while I'm giving birth to my son, to console me in times of tragedy? I can't find that in the local pub. I can't imagine trading all of that for sex, trading someone I love dearly as an individual, someone with whom I have built my life, for the possibility of sex with someone I haven't met yet. It just doesn't compute.

What compounds my frustration further is that I feel that I am firmly in the minority here, that most people likely agree with you that the sexual aspect of a relationship is important enough to invalidate everything else, and I just can't wrap my head around that.
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#57 Old 09-12-2015, 03:35 AM
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Are you already in love and committed to someone, or just imagining a hypothetical partner? I can see how it would be easy to think that of someone who doesn't exist, but if you've fallen in love with someone and devoted your life to him or her and then something happens-- some accident or trauma which renders your loved one physically or psychologically incapable of having sex-- and rather than helping your loved one through this difficult time, you simply walk away from the relationship because of it then yes, I think that's petty, but it's still a far nobler thing to do than to cheat.

I honestly don't see the point of marriage if it's not a lifelong commitment based on deep love and devotion. If it's about having reliable access to sex, if sex is the primary motivation for staying together, and if the removal of sex renders the relationship unbearable, then what's the point? In my opinion, marriage is about reliable companionship. I want my husband to know that I will be here for him as we get older, that I'll care for him if he's struck with illness, that I'll always do my best to make sure he is comfortable, happy, and healthy, and that I will always consider his wellbeing along with my own when making decisions about my/our life-- and I would hope that he feels the same about me. If what I want is sex, I can easily find that anywhere. Finding someone to help me in and out of my wheelchair when I'm 90, to hold my hand while I'm giving birth to my son, to console me in times of tragedy? I can't find that in the local pub. I can't imagine trading all of that for sex, trading someone I love dearly as an individual, someone with whom I have built my life, for the possibility of sex with someone I haven't met yet. It just doesn't compute.

What compounds my frustration further is that I feel that I am firmly in the minority here, that most people likely agree with you that the sexual aspect of a relationship is important enough to invalidate everything else, and I just can't wrap my head around that.

Count me in the minority. I've been married 41 years. We've been up, down and all around...illness and tragedy as well as numerous joyful moments...in it for the long haul.


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#58 Old 09-12-2015, 04:17 AM
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Count me in the minority. I've been married 41 years. We've been up, down and all around...illness and tragedy as well as numerous joyful moments...in it for the long haul.


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That's inspiring. Thank you.
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#59 Old 09-12-2015, 06:08 AM
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And me, married 29 years this month.

My husband had a serious traumatic brain injury when we were in our 20s. If he had become incapable of sex due to the injury, I never would have divorced him for that. I never have cheated and don't think I would have in that case. My husband might have given his ok, but how weird would that seem?
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#60 Old 09-12-2015, 06:18 AM
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And me, married 29 years this month.

My husband had a serious traumatic brain injury when we were in our 20s. If he had become incapable of sex due to the injury, I never would have divorced him for that. I never have cheated and don't think I would have in that case. My husband might have given his ok, but how weird would that seem?
That's beautiful! All right, maybe I'm not in the minority after all.
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