Do people think that Vegan males are effeminate? - Page 2 - VeggieBoards
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#31 Old 08-09-2015, 04:21 AM
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I'm a 24 year old male vegan and I wouldn't say I have any 'effeminate' characteristics.

Most men choose to hide their compassionate side in fear of being judged, I choose to embrace it.
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#32 Old 08-09-2015, 04:42 AM
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Originally Posted by SilverCat View Post
There are two types of people I think.

1.They were born effeminate and became vegetarian anyway. Doesn't matter they are veg or not, they are that way anyway.

2. A Macho man becomes a veg and that made him effeminate (over the time).


1 st one is understandable.

Does the 2nd thing happen?
I don't think going veg makes anyone be anything. I think it 'can' help people be more empathetic and compassionate. But it doesn't mean they will be. I've seen plenty of vegetarians and vegans who are still lacking in that department.


Can you define 'macho' and 'effeminate' though? Because you're using the terms, but I don't know what you mean by them.
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#33 Old 08-09-2015, 04:49 AM
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I'm 32 male, and one month into my vegan journey, hopefully a couple years from now I'll be able to check in and tell you about how manly I still am, lol!

Really though, I work construction and am also a mechanic. Work out several times a week even with a full time labor job. I haven't lost any of my masculine "edge" as of yet...if anything I feel a bit leaner and meaner! Time will tell the truth though - I am in this for moral/ethical reasons so even if I turn into a shriveled little pathetic weakling (I am 99% certain that is NOT going to happen) I still think it's the best way to live.

I have the mental and physical ammo to defend myself against any ridicule. Some of the guys I work with have tried, but my personality comes off a bit aggressive at times and my points are valid. If they want to take it further I am always down for a fight, too...everyone I know does not want to go there with me so the subject changes to something else.
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#34 Old 08-09-2015, 05:29 AM
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Originally Posted by SilverCat View Post
There are two types of people I think.

1.They were born effeminate and became vegetarian anyway. Doesn't matter they are veg or not, they are that way anyway.

2. A Macho man becomes a veg and that made him effeminate (over the time).


1 st one is understandable.

Does the 2nd thing happen?
1. Yes, people of ALL types opt to become veg/vegan including some men who are more "effeminate", who may be gay or transgender (though I have met some pretty "burly" gay guys before that no one would describe as "effeminate") or that metrosexual thing (not really sure if thats a gender identity or a lifestyle choice or what, but a lot of men these days are). But there are ALSO men who are "traditional macho men" who choose to be veg/vegan too. Having compassion for animals, caring about the planet and valuing personal health does not discriminate between any societally-imposed stereotypes or not allow for any one "type" of person

2. Yes, people change ALL the time, but there is absolutely no correlation between vegetarianism/veganism and men going from absolute testosterone cases to the opposite end of the spectrum (trying to keep it PC). It will also NOT change your sexuality or what gender you identify with or what gender you are attracted to. There are PLENTY of "traditional aggressive alpha-male" types in the veg/vegan community. No doubt about that. They aren't even "rare". Beyond perhaps gaining some compassion for the other living beings we share the planet with and perhaps becoming a bit angry/bitter at the fact others are unable to feel that same level of compassion, nothing changes about your personality because you went plant based. Eating plants doesn't make you a "sissy" or a "wimp" or whatever else you may be fearful of becoming. If others view you in a negative way for being a good person, that is THEIR problem, not yours.

"The reward for conformity is that everyone likes you but yourself"

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#35 Old 08-09-2015, 06:02 AM
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Originally Posted by SilverCat View Post
There are two types of people I think.

1.They were born effeminate and became vegetarian anyway. Doesn't matter they are veg or not, they are that way anyway.

2. A Macho man becomes a veg and that made him effeminate (over the time).
That would explain Prince:



I'm not sure Prince knows what vegetarianism is though:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Prince
I've not eaten red meat for about 10 years now. Maybe for a lot longer. I've always had a preference for all things vegetarian
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Originally Posted by Prince
Vegetarian. I don't mess with no red meat.
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#36 Old 08-09-2015, 07:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Kiwibird08 View Post
1. Yes, people of ALL types opt to become veg/vegan including some men who are more "effeminate", who may be gay or transgender (though I have met some pretty "burly" gay guys before that no one would describe as "effeminate") or that metrosexual thing (not really sure if thats a gender identity or a lifestyle choice or what, but a lot of men these days are). But there are ALSO men who are "traditional macho men" who choose to be veg/vegan too. Having compassion for animals, caring about the planet and valuing personal health does not discriminate between any societally-imposed stereotypes or not allow for any one "type" of person

2. Yes, people change ALL the time, but there is absolutely no correlation between vegetarianism/veganism and men going from absolute testosterone cases to the opposite end of the spectrum (trying to keep it PC). It will also NOT change your sexuality or what gender you identify with or what gender you are attracted to. There are PLENTY of "traditional aggressive alpha-male" types in the veg/vegan community. No doubt about that. They aren't even "rare". Beyond perhaps gaining some compassion for the other living beings we share the planet with and perhaps becoming a bit angry/bitter at the fact others are unable to feel that same level of compassion, nothing changes about your personality because you went plant based. Eating plants doesn't make you a "sissy" or a "wimp" or whatever else you may be fearful of becoming. If others view you in a negative way for being a good person, that is THEIR problem, not yours.
Quoted for truth.
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#37 Old 08-09-2015, 06:26 PM
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I personally feel that vegan men are more attractive to me because they have that compassion and they're willing to show and embrace it like SteveW said. I doubt many women look at men who kick puppies and harm animals and say "now that is manly!". So why are men who show compassion to animals effeminate? I think the viewpoint is a coverup or an excuse for some men, but showing they care about something important automatically makes them more attractive, to me at least, shows they're willing to go against social norms because they feel that strongly about this. How is that effeminate to stick up for animals that don't have voices?
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#38 Old 08-09-2015, 07:31 PM
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I personally feel that vegan men are more attractive to me
Well hello there... *wink* *wink*
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#39 Old 08-09-2015, 09:17 PM
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Ok, what the hell is going on in here?
I second that question.
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#40 Old 08-09-2015, 09:38 PM
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There's something I'm becoming increasingly.... uneasy with in this discussion and that's the use of 'effeminate' like it's a bad thing.

Effeminate isn't a bad thing to be. It's just a trait, like any other and I think continuing to use it as an insult, or something we want men to avoid, is harmful to a lot of people. This goes back to something Kiwibird said before, about how we (as a society) don't allow men to be compassionate or show their emotions.

Harmfulness aside, I think it's silly to deem someone bad/wrong/weak/whatever because they display the traits of the opposite gender. It's silly for loads of reasons, but mainly because it's just a trait. Replace "effeminate" with any other trait- People with green eyes, people with straight hair, people with freckles, and you might see how silly it is.
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#41 Old 08-10-2015, 12:30 AM
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There's something I'm becoming increasingly.... uneasy with in this discussion and that's the use of 'effeminate' like it's a bad thing.

Effeminate isn't a bad thing to be. It's just a trait, like any other and I think continuing to use it as an insult, or something we want men to avoid, is harmful to a lot of people. This goes back to something Kiwibird said before, about how we (as a society) don't allow men to be compassionate or show their emotions.

Harmfulness aside, I think it's silly to deem someone bad/wrong/weak/whatever because they display the traits of the opposite gender. It's silly for loads of reasons, but mainly because it's just a trait. Replace "effeminate" with any other trait- People with green eyes, people with straight hair, people with freckles, and you might see how silly it is.
Exactly.
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#42 Old 08-10-2015, 02:14 AM
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I think from a traditional (older persons view) then yes vegetarian and vegan men on the whole do have a higher frequency of effeminate characteristics.

If however you are asking the same question in a modern context (which I'm sure you are) then I'm not so sure that's the case. The reason I hesitate is that while once upon a time those considered to be effeminate were more likely to be something as "out-there" as being vegan, in today's Western society I'd say that men and boys especially are more effeminate than they ever have been across the board. Boys seem to follow the style trends as closely as girls and generally look like mini boy-band members (hardly the traditional Alpha man), men for all they are just terrible in our cultures eyes would be seen as wishy-washy, feeble, soft and weak by the standards of man from yesteryear.

It's possible that there is still a higher percentage of effeminate types within the vegan/vegetarian culture, equally as possible though is that the scale has slid in recent decades to the extent that to make a call on it would be akin to making the level of generalisation that would see you tarred a racist within another context.

If the vegan movement is based purely on compassion and empathy then perhaps you would see effeminate characteristics stand out more prominently but for as long as there is a rational, logical, environmental, survival, scientific etc reasoning behind the movement then I think that leaves ample room for "savages" such as myself to come aboard. Thankfully I believe presently that as the case builds for the later reasoning the more rounded the demographic sample of society will become.

You can equally ask of the question set - does it matter? As touched on earlier, the questions answer is determined by whose eyes set on it, a fighter for Ghengis Khan's army would probably view most if not all men today as being effeminate. Is it therefore a bad thing? Don't get me wrong it's a fair question and something I have wondered personally but I'm not sure there's really an answer to it that isn't unfairly skewed.
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#43 Old 08-10-2015, 02:18 AM
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Hi Silvercat,


I have an inkling that you have asked this question to troll, however, I don't want to jump to conclusions on that. If you have a genuine interest in this then I will attempt a sincere response - but I worry it may fall on deaf ears.


If you were to look at me, or see me walking down the street, I would not strike you as effeminate. I am a 30 year old man with a balding/shaved head and I never cleanly shave (if I have a close wet shave I tend to get ingrown hairs - its not laziness honestly hahah).
I am an ex-boxer, and unfortunately have a nose which goes with the territory.

I walk around at around 15-16 stone, regularly visit the gym and I am well built.
I'm 6foot tall, and I carry myself with confidence - So am I effeminate? you would certainly say no if you saw me.


But is the picture I have described above MY definition of masculine? - absolutely not.


I my eyes, being a man is not about "looking tough" or conforming with things other people find manly to appear manly.
Being manly isn't ordering a steak because "salad is for girls". If you want salad, order salad. If anything, eating meat because you feel you should "because that's what MEN do" is the exact opposite of what being masculine is in my opinion.
To me, being masculine is about being a person who stands for something he thinks is right, regardless of the societal norm.
It is about not being afraid to stand up for someone, or something when you have the power to do so. It is about being proud of who you are, and being accountable for the decisions you make.
It is about having strong values, and an unwillingness to budge on them because you believe what you are doing is right.


We have all read or heard stories about young girls or kids being bullied on buses. What is the first thing people say "there were men on the bus, why didn't they do something to stop these kids bullying"
When you have the power to prevent harm from others, and you do so, that is what defines a man. It is about stepping in, when others won't. It is about being brave enough to standing up for what you believe in, and helping those who you have the power to help.


At what point did being masculine become "following the crowd" and eating meat because salad is for wimps? This follow the crowd behaviour, and requirement for group assurance and acceptance is the exact opposite of what I consider being a man is about. Where is the pride in that?

I have had moments in the recent past where I have stated that I am vegan, and people raise their eyebrows in disbelief. People are surprised, and I often get the "I didn't know that -how come your a vegan?" question. I just reply because I think that its the right thing to do.


The truth is, people who eat meat know in their hearts that animals have died so they can eat. I certainly did before I became vegan - but I was blissfully ignorant and put it to the back of my mind.
When you say that you are vegan, people in your company can often become defensive because they feel like their own ethics have been brought into question.
Therefore I understand that they may become hostile or try to make me look stupid. But that unfortunately comes with the territory.
"How come you are a vegan"
"How come you don't beat up children - exactly, because you believe its wrong"

I have a son, and I think about him and what kind of man he will grow up to be in the future.
I ask myself, do I want him to be a sheep, following the crowd because it is the societal norm, or do I want him to be a man who believes in something, someone who is not afraid to stand up for himself or his beliefs because he feels its right?


In regards to your second option of how men become effeminate over time. Personally, since becoming a vegan, I have found more strength in character. I have become proud of who I am and unafraid to live in a way which I believe is right. If becoming effeminate is finding strength and pride in compassion then I have to ask you a question.

Silvercat, what do you define as masculine?
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#44 Old 08-10-2015, 02:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Tiger Lilly
Harmfulness aside, I think it's silly to deem someone bad/wrong/weak/whatever because they display the traits of the opposite gender. It's silly for loads of reasons, but mainly because it's just a trait. Replace "effeminate" with any other trait- People with green eyes, people with straight hair, people with freckles, and you might see how silly it is.
There is a war strategy game called Valkyria Chronicles which sets up a world rampant with racism against people with black hair. It's silly as crap and it immediately kills my interest in any character who acts that way, but it's an obvious commentary on how shallow our stereotypes are. It probably carries a fair bit more weight in Japan where the game originates since most people there have black hair and it's far less of a melting plot than the cast of characters you usually find in games like this.

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Silvercat, what do you define as masculine?
A good question and a fine speech.
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#45 Old 08-10-2015, 08:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Kiwibird08 View Post
1. Yes, people of ALL types opt to become veg/vegan including some men who are more "effeminate", who may be gay or transgender (though I have met some pretty "burly" gay guys before that no one would describe as "effeminate") or that metrosexual thing (not really sure if thats a gender identity or a lifestyle choice or what, but a lot of men these days are). But there are ALSO men who are "traditional macho men" who choose to be veg/vegan too. Having compassion for animals, caring about the planet and valuing personal health does not discriminate between any societally-imposed stereotypes or not allow for any one "type" of person

2. Yes, people change ALL the time, but there is absolutely no correlation between vegetarianism/veganism and men going from absolute testosterone cases to the opposite end of the spectrum (trying to keep it PC). It will also NOT change your sexuality or what gender you identify with or what gender you are attracted to. There are PLENTY of "traditional aggressive alpha-male" types in the veg/vegan community. No doubt about that. They aren't even "rare". Beyond perhaps gaining some compassion for the other living beings we share the planet with and perhaps becoming a bit angry/bitter at the fact others are unable to feel that same level of compassion, nothing changes about your personality because you went plant based. Eating plants doesn't make you a "sissy" or a "wimp" or whatever else you may be fearful of becoming. If others view you in a negative way for being a good person, that is THEIR problem, not yours.
You just hit right to the point, don't you.
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#46 Old 08-10-2015, 08:47 AM
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I my eyes, being a man is not about "looking tough" or conforming with things other people find manly to appear manly.
Being manly isn't ordering a steak because "salad is for girls". If you want salad, order salad. If anything, eating meat because you feel you should "because that's what MEN do" is the exact opposite of what being masculine is in my opinion.
To me, being masculine is about being a person who stands for something he thinks is right, regardless of the societal norm.
It is about not being afraid to stand up for someone, or something when you have the power to do so. It is about being proud of who you are, and being accountable for the decisions you make.
It is about having strong values, and an unwillingness to budge on them because you believe what you are doing is right.


We have all read or heard stories about young girls or kids being bullied on buses. What is the first thing people say "there were men on the bus, why didn't they do something to stop these kids bullying"
When you have the power to prevent harm from others, and you do so, that is what defines a man. It is about stepping in, when others won't. It is about being brave enough to standing up for what you believe in, and helping those who you have the power to help.


At what point did being masculine become "following the crowd" and eating meat because salad is for wimps? This follow the crowd behaviour, and requirement for group assurance and acceptance is the exact opposite of what I consider being a man is about. Where is the pride in that?

I have had moments in the recent past where I have stated that I am vegan, and people raise their eyebrows in disbelief. People are surprised, and I often get the "I didn't know that -how come your a vegan?" question. I just reply because I think that its the right thing to do.


The truth is, people who eat meat know in their hearts that animals have died so they can eat. I certainly did before I became vegan - but I was blissfully ignorant and put it to the back of my mind.
When you say that you are vegan, people in your company can often become defensive because they feel like their own ethics have been brought into question.
Therefore I understand that they may become hostile or try to make me look stupid. But that unfortunately comes with the territory.
"How come you are a vegan"
"How come you don't beat up children - exactly, because you believe its wrong"

I have a son, and I think about him and what kind of man he will grow up to be in the future.
I ask myself, do I want him to be a sheep, following the crowd because it is the societal norm, or do I want him to be a man who believes in something, someone who is not afraid to stand up for himself or his beliefs because he feels its right?


In regards to your second option of how men become effeminate over time. Personally, since becoming a vegan, I have found more strength in character. I have become proud of who I am and unafraid to live in a way which I believe is right. If becoming effeminate is finding strength and pride in compassion then I have to ask you a question.

Silvercat, what do you define as masculine?
Wonderful post.

I would expand this to say that this is not only what it is to be a man, but what it is to be a mature human being.
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#47 Old 08-10-2015, 10:28 AM
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Hi Silvercat,


I have an inkling that you have asked this question to troll, however, I don't want to jump to conclusions on that. If you have a genuine interest in this then I will attempt a sincere response - but I worry it may fall on deaf ears.


If you were to look at me, or see me walking down the street, I would not strike you as effeminate. I am a 30 year old man with a balding/shaved head and I never cleanly shave (if I have a close wet shave I tend to get ingrown hairs - its not laziness honestly hahah).
I am an ex-boxer, and unfortunately have a nose which goes with the territory.

I walk around at around 15-16 stone, regularly visit the gym and I am well built.
I'm 6foot tall, and I carry myself with confidence - So am I effeminate? you would certainly say no if you saw me.


But is the picture I have described above MY definition of masculine? - absolutely not.


I my eyes, being a man is not about "looking tough" or conforming with things other people find manly to appear manly.
Being manly isn't ordering a steak because "salad is for girls". If you want salad, order salad. If anything, eating meat because you feel you should "because that's what MEN do" is the exact opposite of what being masculine is in my opinion.
To me, being masculine is about being a person who stands for something he thinks is right, regardless of the societal norm.
It is about not being afraid to stand up for someone, or something when you have the power to do so. It is about being proud of who you are, and being accountable for the decisions you make.
It is about having strong values, and an unwillingness to budge on them because you believe what you are doing is right.


We have all read or heard stories about young girls or kids being bullied on buses. What is the first thing people say "there were men on the bus, why didn't they do something to stop these kids bullying"
When you have the power to prevent harm from others, and you do so, that is what defines a man. It is about stepping in, when others won't. It is about being brave enough to standing up for what you believe in, and helping those who you have the power to help.


At what point did being masculine become "following the crowd" and eating meat because salad is for wimps? This follow the crowd behaviour, and requirement for group assurance and acceptance is the exact opposite of what I consider being a man is about. Where is the pride in that?

I have had moments in the recent past where I have stated that I am vegan, and people raise their eyebrows in disbelief. People are surprised, and I often get the "I didn't know that -how come your a vegan?" question. I just reply because I think that its the right thing to do.


The truth is, people who eat meat know in their hearts that animals have died so they can eat. I certainly did before I became vegan - but I was blissfully ignorant and put it to the back of my mind.
When you say that you are vegan, people in your company can often become defensive because they feel like their own ethics have been brought into question.
Therefore I understand that they may become hostile or try to make me look stupid. But that unfortunately comes with the territory.
"How come you are a vegan"
"How come you don't beat up children - exactly, because you believe its wrong"

I have a son, and I think about him and what kind of man he will grow up to be in the future.
I ask myself, do I want him to be a sheep, following the crowd because it is the societal norm, or do I want him to be a man who believes in something, someone who is not afraid to stand up for himself or his beliefs because he feels its right?


In regards to your second option of how men become effeminate over time. Personally, since becoming a vegan, I have found more strength in character. I have become proud of who I am and unafraid to live in a way which I believe is right. If becoming effeminate is finding strength and pride in compassion then I have to ask you a question.

Silvercat, what do you define as masculine?
Well said mate.

The bit about following the masses and the social norms is particularly relevant.

I hate how there seems to be a link between eating steak and being a man, the bigger the better it seems.
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#48 Old 08-10-2015, 07:15 PM
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I think an unspoken subtext here is that it was manly in prehistoric times to courageously kill wild and dangerous animals and bring them back to nourish the family. Grilling meat on a backyard grill or buying hamburger wrapped in plastic is not the same thing, guys. And we've evolved, physically, mentally and morally.

Another point on masculinity, which probably qualifies as too much information, but what the heck. I'm 63 years old and everything works great. No problems at all. Omni men my age at work all seem to be on five meds. Some rely on blue pills. Two have diabetes and cannot function sexually at all.

Last edited by veggie man; 08-10-2015 at 07:18 PM.
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#49 Old 08-10-2015, 08:54 PM
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I think an unspoken subtext here is that it was manly in prehistoric times to courageously kill wild and dangerous animals and bring them back to nourish the family. Grilling meat on a backyard grill or buying hamburger wrapped in plastic is not the same thing, guys. And we've evolved, physically, mentally and morally.
physically evolved? no, we're pretty much the same as our hunter-gatherer ancestors. have you seen that movie The Man from Earth? (streaming on Hulu, very good). People will find certain features attractive or unattractive without being able to articulate it or agree with it. I think of ratlike mammal ancestors huddling in their burrows as the dinosaurs died in a comet nuclear winter. Flash forward to stages of hypothermia and right after paradoxical undressing there is often a terminal burrowing / hide and die stage as the victim hides in a cupboard or under a bed. There's something left in the brainstem from that evolutionary bottleneck and doubtless many more moments like it. My cat cuddles up and purrs. People don't think nearly as much as they think they do. People mostly feel things and rationalize it.

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There is a war strategy game called Valkyria Chronicles which sets up a world rampant with racism against people with black hair. It's silly as crap and it immediately kills my interest in any character who acts that way, but it's an obvious commentary on how shallow our stereotypes are.
my favorite ps3 game.

* This post may contain pork, beef and fingers of undocumented workers. This post was manufactured in a facility that processes peanuts.
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#50 Old 08-11-2015, 12:09 AM
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I think an unspoken subtext here is that it was manly in prehistoric times to courageously kill wild and dangerous animals and bring them back to nourish the family. Grilling meat on a backyard grill or buying hamburger wrapped in plastic is not the same thing, guys. And we've evolved, physically, mentally and morally.
One of my favourite things about this idea (which I think you're correct about, in as far as we believe killing animals to be manly because our ancestors did it) is that it might be based on a faulty theory.

There's a few anthropologists out there now who say that maybe the theory that only men were hunting, is more an assumption we made, rather than something based on evidence. There's apparently been physical evidence shown that women participated in the hunting and the theory is that they had to, if nothing more than survival (if you're taking down a big animal, with only spears, then you don't get to say "no girls allowed").

I like to tell people that when they talk 'about our ancestors'. Then I bring up that my ancestors owned people (probably slaves and most definitely their wives) and it's almost certain some of them died of dysentery. So, just because it happened a long time ago, doesn't make it a good thing.
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#51 Old 08-11-2015, 09:21 AM
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my favorite ps3 game.
And they never localized the sequels. Damn.


Back on topic though, the negative stereotypes of women could be heavily offset if society was actually willing to promote strong female role models as evenly as male role models.

As it is, in my own little corner of the world I hear no end to women being rejected as 'marketable' and women being forbidden to compete with men even in the most gender-irrelevant of tournaments. And that's just as far as video games are concerned.

I actually got into a huge argument with someone who was convinced beyond a shadow of a doubt that it would be nothing but detrimental to permit women and men to play on the same professional sports teams. His best argument was that if we were to hypothetically drop the women's team in a given sport and permit the any gender to try out for the main team than it would not only slash the total number of competitors in half, but it would also preclude women from competing purely on the basis that 'women have genetically evolved to be physically inferior to men'.



I get where he's coming from, but that doesn't justify the segregation at all.
Tiger Lilly likes this.

Last edited by Dogma; 08-11-2015 at 09:23 AM.
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