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Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: UK
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There are two types of people I think.
1.They were born effeminate and became vegetarian anyway. Doesn't matter they are veg or not, they are that way anyway. 2. A Macho man becomes a veg and that made him effeminate (over the time). 1 st one is understandable. Does the 2nd thing happen? |
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There are two types of people I think.
1.They were born effeminate and became vegetarian anyway. Doesn't matter they are veg or not, they are that way anyway. 2. A Macho man becomes a veg and that made him effeminate (over the time). 1 st one is understandable. Does the 2nd thing happen? |
There are two types of people I think.
1.They were born effeminate and became vegetarian anyway. Doesn't matter they are veg or not, they are that way anyway. 2. A Macho man becomes a veg and that made him effeminate (over the time). |
Originally Posted by Prince
I've not eaten red meat for about 10 years now. Maybe for a lot longer. I've always had a preference for all things vegetarian
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Originally Posted by Prince
Vegetarian. I don't mess with no red meat.
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1. Yes, people of ALL types opt to become veg/vegan including some men who are more "effeminate", who may be gay or transgender (though I have met some pretty "burly" gay guys before that no one would describe as "effeminate") or that metrosexual thing (not really sure if thats a gender identity or a lifestyle choice or what, but a lot of men these days are). But there are ALSO men who are "traditional macho men" who choose to be veg/vegan too. Having compassion for animals, caring about the planet and valuing personal health does not discriminate between any societally-imposed stereotypes or not allow for any one "type" of person
2. Yes, people change ALL the time, but there is absolutely no correlation between vegetarianism/veganism and men going from absolute testosterone cases to the opposite end of the spectrum (trying to keep it PC). It will also NOT change your sexuality or what gender you identify with or what gender you are attracted to. There are PLENTY of "traditional aggressive alpha-male" types in the veg/vegan community. No doubt about that. They aren't even "rare". Beyond perhaps gaining some compassion for the other living beings we share the planet with and perhaps becoming a bit angry/bitter at the fact others are unable to feel that same level of compassion, nothing changes about your personality because you went plant based. Eating plants doesn't make you a "sissy" or a "wimp" or whatever else you may be fearful of becoming. If others view you in a negative way for being a good person, that is THEIR problem, not yours. |
There's something I'm becoming increasingly.... uneasy with in this discussion and that's the use of 'effeminate' like it's a bad thing.
Effeminate isn't a bad thing to be. It's just a trait, like any other and I think continuing to use it as an insult, or something we want men to avoid, is harmful to a lot of people. This goes back to something Kiwibird said before, about how we (as a society) don't allow men to be compassionate or show their emotions. Harmfulness aside, I think it's silly to deem someone bad/wrong/weak/whatever because they display the traits of the opposite gender. It's silly for loads of reasons, but mainly because it's just a trait. Replace "effeminate" with any other trait- People with green eyes, people with straight hair, people with freckles, and you might see how silly it is. |
Originally Posted by Tiger Lilly
Harmfulness aside, I think it's silly to deem someone bad/wrong/weak/whatever because they display the traits of the opposite gender. It's silly for loads of reasons, but mainly because it's just a trait. Replace "effeminate" with any other trait- People with green eyes, people with straight hair, people with freckles, and you might see how silly it is.
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Originally Posted by SeanSmith
Silvercat, what do you define as masculine?
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1. Yes, people of ALL types opt to become veg/vegan including some men who are more "effeminate", who may be gay or transgender (though I have met some pretty "burly" gay guys before that no one would describe as "effeminate") or that metrosexual thing (not really sure if thats a gender identity or a lifestyle choice or what, but a lot of men these days are). But there are ALSO men who are "traditional macho men" who choose to be veg/vegan too. Having compassion for animals, caring about the planet and valuing personal health does not discriminate between any societally-imposed stereotypes or not allow for any one "type" of person
2. Yes, people change ALL the time, but there is absolutely no correlation between vegetarianism/veganism and men going from absolute testosterone cases to the opposite end of the spectrum (trying to keep it PC). It will also NOT change your sexuality or what gender you identify with or what gender you are attracted to. There are PLENTY of "traditional aggressive alpha-male" types in the veg/vegan community. No doubt about that. They aren't even "rare". Beyond perhaps gaining some compassion for the other living beings we share the planet with and perhaps becoming a bit angry/bitter at the fact others are unable to feel that same level of compassion, nothing changes about your personality because you went plant based. Eating plants doesn't make you a "sissy" or a "wimp" or whatever else you may be fearful of becoming. If others view you in a negative way for being a good person, that is THEIR problem, not yours. |
I my eyes, being a man is not about "looking tough" or conforming with things other people find manly to appear manly.
Being manly isn't ordering a steak because "salad is for girls". If you want salad, order salad. If anything, eating meat because you feel you should "because that's what MEN do" is the exact opposite of what being masculine is in my opinion. To me, being masculine is about being a person who stands for something he thinks is right, regardless of the societal norm. It is about not being afraid to stand up for someone, or something when you have the power to do so. It is about being proud of who you are, and being accountable for the decisions you make. It is about having strong values, and an unwillingness to budge on them because you believe what you are doing is right. We have all read or heard stories about young girls or kids being bullied on buses. What is the first thing people say "there were men on the bus, why didn't they do something to stop these kids bullying" When you have the power to prevent harm from others, and you do so, that is what defines a man. It is about stepping in, when others won't. It is about being brave enough to standing up for what you believe in, and helping those who you have the power to help. At what point did being masculine become "following the crowd" and eating meat because salad is for wimps? This follow the crowd behaviour, and requirement for group assurance and acceptance is the exact opposite of what I consider being a man is about. Where is the pride in that? I have had moments in the recent past where I have stated that I am vegan, and people raise their eyebrows in disbelief. People are surprised, and I often get the "I didn't know that -how come your a vegan?" question. I just reply because I think that its the right thing to do. The truth is, people who eat meat know in their hearts that animals have died so they can eat. I certainly did before I became vegan - but I was blissfully ignorant and put it to the back of my mind. When you say that you are vegan, people in your company can often become defensive because they feel like their own ethics have been brought into question. Therefore I understand that they may become hostile or try to make me look stupid. But that unfortunately comes with the territory. "How come you are a vegan" "How come you don't beat up children - exactly, because you believe its wrong" I have a son, and I think about him and what kind of man he will grow up to be in the future. I ask myself, do I want him to be a sheep, following the crowd because it is the societal norm, or do I want him to be a man who believes in something, someone who is not afraid to stand up for himself or his beliefs because he feels its right? In regards to your second option of how men become effeminate over time. Personally, since becoming a vegan, I have found more strength in character. I have become proud of who I am and unafraid to live in a way which I believe is right. If becoming effeminate is finding strength and pride in compassion then I have to ask you a question. Silvercat, what do you define as masculine? |
Hi Silvercat,
I have an inkling that you have asked this question to troll, however, I don't want to jump to conclusions on that. If you have a genuine interest in this then I will attempt a sincere response - but I worry it may fall on deaf ears. If you were to look at me, or see me walking down the street, I would not strike you as effeminate. I am a 30 year old man with a balding/shaved head and I never cleanly shave (if I have a close wet shave I tend to get ingrown hairs - its not laziness honestly hahah). I am an ex-boxer, and unfortunately have a nose which goes with the territory. I walk around at around 15-16 stone, regularly visit the gym and I am well built. I'm 6foot tall, and I carry myself with confidence - So am I effeminate? you would certainly say no if you saw me. But is the picture I have described above MY definition of masculine? - absolutely not. I my eyes, being a man is not about "looking tough" or conforming with things other people find manly to appear manly. Being manly isn't ordering a steak because "salad is for girls". If you want salad, order salad. If anything, eating meat because you feel you should "because that's what MEN do" is the exact opposite of what being masculine is in my opinion. To me, being masculine is about being a person who stands for something he thinks is right, regardless of the societal norm. It is about not being afraid to stand up for someone, or something when you have the power to do so. It is about being proud of who you are, and being accountable for the decisions you make. It is about having strong values, and an unwillingness to budge on them because you believe what you are doing is right. We have all read or heard stories about young girls or kids being bullied on buses. What is the first thing people say "there were men on the bus, why didn't they do something to stop these kids bullying" When you have the power to prevent harm from others, and you do so, that is what defines a man. It is about stepping in, when others won't. It is about being brave enough to standing up for what you believe in, and helping those who you have the power to help. At what point did being masculine become "following the crowd" and eating meat because salad is for wimps? This follow the crowd behaviour, and requirement for group assurance and acceptance is the exact opposite of what I consider being a man is about. Where is the pride in that? I have had moments in the recent past where I have stated that I am vegan, and people raise their eyebrows in disbelief. People are surprised, and I often get the "I didn't know that -how come your a vegan?" question. I just reply because I think that its the right thing to do. The truth is, people who eat meat know in their hearts that animals have died so they can eat. I certainly did before I became vegan - but I was blissfully ignorant and put it to the back of my mind. When you say that you are vegan, people in your company can often become defensive because they feel like their own ethics have been brought into question. Therefore I understand that they may become hostile or try to make me look stupid. But that unfortunately comes with the territory. "How come you are a vegan" "How come you don't beat up children - exactly, because you believe its wrong" I have a son, and I think about him and what kind of man he will grow up to be in the future. I ask myself, do I want him to be a sheep, following the crowd because it is the societal norm, or do I want him to be a man who believes in something, someone who is not afraid to stand up for himself or his beliefs because he feels its right? In regards to your second option of how men become effeminate over time. Personally, since becoming a vegan, I have found more strength in character. I have become proud of who I am and unafraid to live in a way which I believe is right. If becoming effeminate is finding strength and pride in compassion then I have to ask you a question. Silvercat, what do you define as masculine? |
I think an unspoken subtext here is that it was manly in prehistoric times to courageously kill wild and dangerous animals and bring them back to nourish the family. Grilling meat on a backyard grill or buying hamburger wrapped in plastic is not the same thing, guys. And we've evolved, physically, mentally and morally.
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Originally Posted by dogma
There is a war strategy game called Valkyria Chronicles which sets up a world rampant with racism against people with black hair. It's silly as crap and it immediately kills my interest in any character who acts that way, but it's an obvious commentary on how shallow our stereotypes are.
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I think an unspoken subtext here is that it was manly in prehistoric times to courageously kill wild and dangerous animals and bring them back to nourish the family. Grilling meat on a backyard grill or buying hamburger wrapped in plastic is not the same thing, guys. And we've evolved, physically, mentally and morally.
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