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#1 Old 07-25-2004, 04:59 PM
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I was going to put this in arts and entertainment, but judging from the last threads I read that concerned Michael Moore I thought I better start it here!



I saw Farenheit 911 last night at an advance screening. I was completely blown away by it. I realise Michael Moore is biased, and his movies are made to reflect a certain viewpoint, but the footage shown was real, and the connections he made between Bush and certain companies and people was documented.



The movie actually made me cry in a couple of parts - and I do NOT cry easily in movies. I think they were tears of anger as much as anything.



The footage that most shocked me in the whole film was the morning of September 11th, Bush is doing a photo op at a school and listening to young kids read. One of his aides then approaches him and whispers in his ear that the country is under attack. Bush sits there looking confused and bewildered. He then picks up a copy of the picturebook "My Pet Goat" (or something similiarly named) and sits there for 7 minutes looking at the illustrations, then staring blankly around, that same stupid expression on his face.



Unbelievable.



Has anyone else seen this yet? I assume it has been released in America too?
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#2 Old 07-25-2004, 07:36 PM
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I I realise Michael Moore is biased, and his movies are made to reflect a certain viewpoint, but the footage shown was real, and the connections he made between Bush and certain companies and people was documented.



You may want to go to some of the sites posted in the other thread before you put too much stock into some of what you saw. Moore really strains to make some connections, and leaves out important details.



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The footage that most shocked me in the whole film was the morning of September 11th, Bush is doing a photo op at a school and listening to young kids read. One of his aides then approaches him and whispers in his ear that the country is under attack. Bush sits there looking confused and bewildered. He then picks up a copy of the picturebook "My Pet Goat" (or something similiarly named) and sits there for 7 minutes looking at the illustrations, then staring blankly around, that same stupid expression on his face.



I just don't view that sequence the same way as some people I guess.
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#3 Old 07-25-2004, 07:40 PM
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I'm sorry, but I just have to say it. It's Fahrenheit, not Farenheit.
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#4 Old 07-25-2004, 07:45 PM
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I saw F911.

I thought it was excellent. I already knew most of the info that MM presents. What got me is a clear reminder, that Bush is constantly lying, and that he is also doing his best to keep us in a culture of fear (in the US).



I think the trivial concerns about the rest of the movie are just bland attempts to forget what the movie is really about: how the US public is manipulated by the Media and the Bush administration and how the people in power are keeping the US in a culture of fear.
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#5 Old 07-25-2004, 07:55 PM
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I thought it was excellent. I already knew most of the info that MM presents. What got me is a clear reminder, that Bush is constantly lying, and that he is also doing his best to keep us in a culture of fear (in the US).





Let me guess...you probably think that the Saudis were secretly flown out of the US when all other air traffic was banned, don't ya?
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#6 Old 07-25-2004, 08:07 PM
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what and you think they werent? that was admitted too, it wasnt really secret anyway.



the movie was excelent yes the information is presented in a onesided fashion, cannot be taken as litteraly as one would take a historical documentary, but needless to say it is still a documentary it is not a piece of fictional entertainment and therefore can be taken with more then a grain of salt. allthat is needed is a little bit of brain power to critically analyze what it presented in the film.



I found most touching the soldiers. so conviced that the damage they were doing was for the good so enthraled with their tanks and copters. that they had no concept that they were not there to avenge sept 11 that, they were killing inoccent civilians simply to avenge a grudge of bushes which finally he had a excuse to put in motion.



I think despite moores obvious biases everyone needs to see this film
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#7 Old 07-25-2004, 08:09 PM
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what and you think they werent? that was admitted too, it wasnt really secret anyway.



Uh, they weren't. Look at the date when they left the country. In his book, Moore alleged that they were ushered out to avoid questioning from the FBI, while the FBI says they were questioned. Too easy. Give me a tougher one.
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#8 Old 07-25-2004, 08:11 PM
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The footage that most shocked me in the whole film was the morning of September 11th, Bush is doing a photo op at a school and listening to young kids read. One of his aides then approaches him and whispers in his ear that the country is under attack. Bush sits there looking confused and bewildered. He then picks up a copy of the picturebook "My Pet Goat" (or something similiarly named) and sits there for 7 minutes looking at the illustrations, then staring blankly around, that same stupid expression on his face.



If the secret service had run in there and grabbed Bush and ran him out, it would have done nothing but scare a bunch of kids. I don't think he should have stayed there either. Since i don't know what was going on in their heads then, I just ignored that part of the movie. FYI I dislike Bush as much as any of the Bush haters here, but without hearing exactly what the guy whispered to him, you can't rush to any judgement about that part.
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#9 Old 07-25-2004, 08:50 PM
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I'm sorry, but I just have to say it. It's Fahrenheit, not Farenheit.



*embarrassed shrug*



oops. We go by Celsius here.



<<<< spelling not my forte
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#10 Old 07-25-2004, 08:55 PM
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Uh, they weren't. Look at the date when they left the country. In his book, Moore alleged that they were ushered out to avoid questioning from the FBI, while the FBI says they were questioned. Too easy. Give me a tougher one.



In the movie, documents were shown that showed they left the country on September 13. A gentleman from either the FBI or CIA at the time of the attacks was interviewed along with a senator and stated that they were not questioned in regard to Bin Ladens whereabouts.
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#11 Old 07-25-2004, 08:56 PM
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Glad you liked the movie. I Hope the DVD is released soon. October would be nice.
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#12 Old 07-25-2004, 08:59 PM
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You may want to go to some of the sites posted in the other thread before you put too much stock into some of what you saw. Moore really strains to make some connections, and leaves out important details.



I am sure he does strain to make some connections. I admit Moore is biased strongly against Bush. I watched the movie with this in mind. The fact is he did make connections, and to me some of them seemed quite strong and convincing. Both sides of any debate leave out important details, yet the details that were presented were enough to sicken me regarding Iraq and Americas role there. As an Australian, I am appalled by the war as we are a part of the Coalition, regardless that national polling showed that over 75% of us did not want to go to war in the first place.
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#13 Old 07-25-2004, 09:03 PM
 
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Tame - I'd like to hear more about your thoughts on the "reading to Fla. schoolkids" scene, as it was one of the most memorable for me as well. The media coverage during 9/11 would've suggested that Bush got the whisper "The country is under attack" and then got up and left the event. There weren't a lot of new arguments for me in 9/11, but this was something that had escaped my attention previously. Did you not find it odd that he just sat there?

The ones I pity are the ones who never stick out their neck for something they believe, never know the taste of moral struggle, and never have the thrill of victory. - Jonathan Kozol
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#14 Old 07-25-2004, 09:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Descentia View Post

*embarrassed shrug*



oops. We go by Celsius here.



<<<< spelling not my forte



Don't be embarrassed. Tons and tons of people have spelled it wrong, including those in the US. The only reason I chided you is that it was starting to drive me crazy.
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#15 Old 07-25-2004, 09:15 PM
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No problems! I would definately rather know when I stuff up like that
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#16 Old 07-25-2004, 09:20 PM
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Tame - I'd like to hear more about your thoughts on the "reading to Fla. schoolkids" scene, as it was one of the most memorable for me as well. The media coverage during 9/11 would've suggested that Bush got the whisper "The country is under attack" and then got up and left the event. There weren't a lot of new arguments for me in 9/11, but this was something that had escaped my attention previously. Did you not find it odd that he just sat there?



I too am interested to gauge your opinion. I think we can assume Bush was told the country was under attack, or planes had just crashed into the WTC. After the aide told Bush, the two aides stood at the door of the classroom anxiously whispering to each other and looking periodically towards Bush - in my reading of this footage and the timing it would appear the aides were waiting for Bush to do something, such as make polite excuses and leave.



Bush had the strangest series of expressions on his face. But he really did look bewildered. (Maybe the book he was reading "My Pet Goat" or whatever, confused him?
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#17 Old 07-25-2004, 09:58 PM
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The question is whether those were the only words whispered. Was it possibly "The country may be under attack/Planes have crashed into the WTC, and we are waiting for additional word." In fact, I'll need to check some links, but I believe there was something written elsewhere about what was supposedly said.



And ya know what, if I was president and some sunny Tuesday morning someone whispered into my ear that planes had just been flown into a building, I would probably be a little bewildered myself. In fact, I remember how I felt that morning as I heard it on the radio. I watched the reactions of co-workers as the WTC collapsed in the background, including one who continued on in leading a meeting as if nothing happened, because she was too stunned to do anything else.
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#18 Old 07-25-2004, 09:58 PM
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In the movie, documents were shown that showed they left the country on September 13. A gentleman from either the FBI or CIA at the time of the attacks was interviewed along with a senator and stated that they were not questioned in regard to Bin Ladens whereabouts.





Prepare-to-be-enlightened.
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#19 Old 07-25-2004, 10:02 PM
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In the movie, documents were shown that showed they left the country on September 13. A gentleman from either the FBI or CIA at the time of the attacks was interviewed along with a senator and stated that they were not questioned in regard to Bin Ladens whereabouts.



Saudi Departures from United States



Deceits 11-14



Moore is guilty of a classic game of saying one thing and implying another when he describes how members of the Saudi elite were flown out of the United States shortly after 9/11.



If you listen only to what Moore says during this segment of the movieand take careful notes in the darkyoull find hes got his facts right. He and others in the film state that 142 Saudis, including 24 members of the bin Laden family, were allowed to leave the country after Sept. 13.



The dateSept. 13is crucial because that is when a national ban on air traffic, for security purposes, was eased



But nonetheless, many viewers will leave the movie theater with the impression that the Saudis, thanks to special treatment from the White House, were permitted to fly away when all other planes were still grounded. This false impression is created by Moores failure, when mentioning Sept. 13, to emphasize that the ban on flights had been eased by then. The false impression is further pushed when Moore shows the singer Ricky Martin walking around an airport and says, Not even Ricky Martin would fly. But really, who wanted to fly? No one. Except the bin Ladens.



But the movie fails to mention that the FBI interviewed about 30 of the Saudis before they left. And the independent 9/11 commission has reported that each of the flights we have studied was investigated by the FBI and dealt with in a professional manner prior to its departure.



McNamee, Chicago Sun-Times. (Note: The Sun-Times article was correct in its characterization of the Ricky Martin segment, but not precisely accurate in the exact words used in the film. I have substituted the exact quote. On September 13, U.S. airspace was re-opened for a small number of flights; charter flights were allowed, and the airlines were allowed to move their planes to new airports to start carrying passengers on September 14.)



Tapper: [Y]our film showcases former counter-terrorism czar Richard Clarke, using him as a critic of the Bush administration. Yet in another part of the film, one that appears in your previews, you criticize members of the Bush administration for permitting members of the bin Laden family to fly out of the country almost immediately after 9/11. What the film does not mention is that Richard Clarke says that he OKd those flights. Is it fair to not mention that?



Moore: Actually I do, I put up The New York Times article and its blown up 40 foot on the screen, you can see Richard Clarkes name right there saying that he approved the flights based on the information the FBI gave him. Its right there, right up on the screen. I dont agree with Clarke on this point. Just because I think hes good on a lot of things doesnt mean I agree with him on everything.



Jake Tapper interview with Michael Moore, ABC News, June 25, 2004. In an Associated Press interview, Clarke said that he agreed with much of what Moore had to say, but that the Saudi flight material was a mistake. (Clarke testified to the September 11 Commission, on September 3, 2003, that letting the Saudis go "was a conscious decision with complete review at the highest levels of the State Department and the FBI and the White House." It's possible to read Clarke's 2003 statement as consistent with his 2004 statements; if you believe that what Clarke is saying now contradicts what he said in 2003, then Clarke is a liar, and all other claims he makes in Fahrenheit are discredited.)







Again, Moore is misleading. His film includes a brief shot of a Sept. 4, 2003, New York Times article headlined White House Approved Departures of Saudis after Sept. 11, Ex-Aide Says. The camera pans over the article far too quickly for any ordinary viewer to spot and read the words in which Clarke states that he approved the flights.







Some Saudis left the U.S. by charter flight on September 14, a day when commercial flights had resumed, but when ordinary charter planes were still grounded. When did the bin Ladens actually leave? Not until the next week, as the the 9/11 Commission staff report explains:



Fearing reprisals against Saudi nationals, the Saudi government asked for help in getting some of its citizens out of the country.we have found that the request came to the attention of Richard Clarke and that each of the flights we have studied was investigated by the FBI and dealt with in a professional manner prior to its departure.



No commercial planes, including chartered flights, were permitted to fly into, out of, or within the United States until September 13, 2001. After the airspace reopened, six chartered flights with 142 people, mostly Saudi Arabian nationals, departed from the United States between September 14 and 24. One flight, the so-called Bin Ladin flight, departed the United States on September 20 with 26 passengers, most of them relatives of Usama Bin Ladin. We have found no credible evidence that any chartered flights of Saudi Arabian nationals departed the United States before the reopening of national airspace.



The Saudi flights were screened by law enforcement officials, primarily the FBI, to ensure that people on these flights did not pose a threat to national security, and that nobody of interest to the FBI with regard to the 9/11 investigation was allowed to leave the country. Thirty of the 142 people on these flights were interviewed by the FBI, including 22 of the 26 people (23 passengers and 3 private security guards) on the Bin Ladin flight. Many were asked detailed questions. None of the passengers stated that they had any recent contact with Usama Bin Ladin or knew anything about terrorist activity.



The FBI checked a variety of databases for information on the Bin Ladin flight passengers and searched the aircraft. It is unclear whether the TIPOFF terrorist watchlist was checked. At our request, the Terrorist Screening Center has rechecked the names of individuals on the flight manifests of these six Saudi flights against the current TIPOFF watchlist. There are no matches.



The FBI has concluded that nobody was allowed to depart on these six flights who the FBI wanted to interview in connection with the 9/11 attacks, or who the FBI later concluded had any involvement in those attacks. To date, we have uncovered no evidence to contradict this conclusion.



The final Commission Report confirms that Clarke was the highest-ranking official who made the decision to let the Saudis go, and that Clarke's decision had no adverse effect on September 11 investigations. See pages 328-29 of the Report.



Linky.
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#20 Old 07-26-2004, 12:10 AM
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I dunno.

I have mixed feelings about the film.

yes, I agree with the overall message,but I have hesitations about the sensationalist presentation and misleading juxtaposition. On the other hand, this also makes for good entertainment.



As for questions of bias...well, my thinking is that the very concept of a lack of bias is a convenient fiction...



The main criticism I would levy against Moore is that his analysis is not radical enough. He paints a picture of Bush and his cronies as some sort of abberation when they are just one manifestation of the dominant tendencies of our political system. None of the continuities between the Bush administration and other administrations are noted. And that Orwell quote...Moore doesn't really go anyware with that...

...

this type of problem is is inherent in a documentary that focuses on Bush and not everything else though.



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#21 Old 07-26-2004, 12:23 AM
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And ya know what, if I was president and some sunny Tuesday morning someone whispered into my ear that planes had just been flown into a building, I would probably be a little bewildered myself. In fact, I remember how I felt that morning as I heard it on the radio. I watched the reactions of co-workers as the WTC collapsed in the background, including one who continued on in leading a meeting as if nothing happened, because she was too stunned to do anything else.



I understand what you mean, when I saw the second plane crashing into the tower live on television I too was stunned and shocked. But regardless of what was said, or how bewildered he was, I still personally believe that even if he was told they were waiting for further information he should have at least made excuses and left to examine the situation. At least enquire as to what was actually going on.
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#22 Old 07-26-2004, 12:28 AM
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The footage that is shown is actually when George Bush was informed that a *second* plane had hit the building, he was told of the first attack *before* he decided to go ahead with the photo op.







At 9:05 a.m., the White House chief of staff, Andrew H. Card Jr., stepped into the classroom and whispered into the president's right ear, A second plane hit the other tower, and America's under attack. David E. Sanger and Don Van Natta Jr., After The Attacks: The Events; In Four Days, A National Crisis Changes Bush's Presidency, The New York Times, September 16, 2001.



[H]e lingered in the room for another six minutes [after being informed of the second plane] [At] 9:12, he abruptly retreated, speaking to Mr. Cheney and New York officials. David E. Sanger and Don Van Natta Jr., After The Attacks: The Events;In Four Days, A National Crisis Changes Bush's Presidency, The New York Times, September 16, 2001 .
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#23 Old 07-26-2004, 12:34 AM
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$100 million... ouch
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#24 Old 07-26-2004, 04:34 AM
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Prepare-to-be-enlightened.



where exactly does the movie claim that they were flown while the airspace was closed?



I would be interested to see your analysis of this:



FAHRENHEIT 9/11: At least six private jets and nearly two dozen commercial planes carried the Saudis and the bin Ladens out of the U.S. after September 13th. In all, 142 Saudis, including 24 members of the bin Laden family, were allowed to leave the country.



NOTE: It should be noted that even though the film does not make the allegation, strong evidence has recently come to light that at least one private plane flew to pick up Saudi nationals while private flights were still grounded. Moreover, for nearly three years, the White House has denied that this flight existed. This was reported in the June 9, 2004 St. Petersburg Times article cited below.



* After the airspace reopened, six chartered flights with 142 people,mostly Saudi Arabian nationals, departed from the United States between September 14 and 24. One flight, the so-called Bin Ladin flight, departed the United States on September 20 with 26 passengers, most of them relatives of Usama Bin Ladin. National Commission on Terrorist Attacks Upon the United States, Threats and Responses in 2001, Staff Statement No. 10, The Saudi Flights, p. 12; http://www.9-11commission.gov/hearings/

hearing10/staff_statement_10.pdf



* It should be noted that the US Customs and Border Protection document released by the Department of Homeland Security under the FOIA, Feb 24, 2004 lists 162 Saudi Nationals who flew out of the country between 9/11/2001 and 9/15/2001, departing from New Yorks Kennedy airport, Washingtons Dulles, and Dallas Fort Worth. http://www.judicialwatch.org/archive/

2004/homelandsecurity.pdf.



* For an official list of Saudi Passport holders (names redacted) who flew out of the country between 9.11.2001 9.15.2001, see US Customs and Border Protection document released by the Department of Homeland Security under the FOIA, Feb 24, 2004; http://www.judicialwatch.org/archive/

2004/homelandsecurity.pdf.



* TheSt. Petersburg Times reported on Jun 9, 2004:



o "Two days after the Sept. 11 attacks, with most of the nation's air traffic still grounded, a small jet landed at Tampa International Airport, picked up three young Saudi men and left. The men, one of them thought to be a member of the Saudi royal family, were accompanied by a former FBI agent and a former Tampa police officer on the flight to Lexington, Ky. The Saudis then took another flight out of the country.



o Moreover: For nearly three years, White House, aviation and law enforcement officials have insisted the flight never took place and have denied published reports and widespread Internet speculation about its purpose The terrorism panel, better known as the 9/11 Commission, said in April that it knew of six chartered flights with 142 people aboard, mostly Saudis, that left the United States between Sept. 14 and 24, 2001. But it has said nothing about the Tampa flight The 9/11 Commission, which has said the flights out of the United States were handled appropriately by the FBI, appears concerned with the handling of the Tampa flight.



o "Most of the aircraft allowed to fly in U.S. airspace on Sept. 13 were empty airliners being ferried from the airports where they made quick landings on Sept. 11. The reopening of the airspace included paid charter flights, but not private, nonrevenue flights. Jean Heller, TIA now verifies flight of Saudis; The government has long denied that two days after the 9/11 attacks, the three were allowed to fly. St. Petersburg Times, June 9, 2004
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#25 Old 07-26-2004, 04:37 AM
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The footage that is shown is actually when George Bush was informed that a *second* plane had hit the building, he was told of the first attack *before* he decided to go ahead with the photo op.







At 9:05 a.m., the White House chief of staff, Andrew H. Card Jr., stepped into the classroom and whispered into the president's right ear, A second plane hit the other tower, and America's under attack. David E. Sanger and Don Van Natta Jr., After The Attacks: The Events; In Four Days, A National Crisis Changes Bush's Presidency, The New York Times, September 16, 2001.



[H]e lingered in the room for another six minutes [after being informed of the second plane] [At] 9:12, he abruptly retreated, speaking to Mr. Cheney and New York officials. David E. Sanger and Don Van Natta Jr., After The Attacks: The Events;In Four Days, A National Crisis Changes Bush's Presidency, The New York Times, September 16, 2001 .





FAHRENHEIT 9/11: As the attack took place, Mr. Bush was on his way to an elementary school in Florida . When informed of the first plane hitting the World Trade Center, where terrorists had struck just eight years prior, Bush just decided to go ahead with his photo opportunity.



NOTE: It should be emphasized that at the time Bush was notified of the first plane attack, he (unlike the rest of America) was already aware that Osama bin Laden was planning to attack America by hijacking airplanes, per the August 6, 2001 Presidential Daily Brief (PDB). He was also aware, of course, that the World Trade Center had been historically a target for terrorist attacks. He nonetheless went ahead with this photo opportunity in a school full of children.



* Mr. Bush arrived at the school, just before 9 am, expecting to be met by its motherly principal, Gwen Rigell. Instead he was pulled sharply aside by the familiar, bulky figure of 51-year-old Karl Rove, a veteran political fixer and trusted aide of both Mr. Bush and his father, George Sr. Mr. Rove, a fellow Texan with an expansive manner and a colorful turn of phrase, told the President that a large commercial airliner (American Flight 11) had crashed into the North Tower of the World Trade Centre . Mr. Bush clenched his teeth, lowered his bottom lip and said something inaudible. Then he went into the school. William Langley, Revealed: What Really Went on During Bushs Missing Hours, The Telegraph, December 16, 2001.



* The airborne attack on the World Trade Center was at least the second terrorist attempt to topple the landmarks. In 1993, terrorists sought to bomb one building so that it would explode and fall into the other. The plot did not succeed, but six people were killed and more than 1,000 injured. Cragg Hines, Terrorists Strike from Air; Jetliners Slam into Pentagon, Trade Center The Houston Chronicle, September 11, 2001.



* August 6, 2001 Presidential Daily Brief (PDB), Bin Ladin Determined to Strike Inside US: Al-Qa'ida members -- including some who are US citizens -- have resided in or traveled to the US for years, and the group apparently maintains a support structure that could aid attacks FBI information since that time indicates patterns of suspicious activity in this country consistent with preparations for hijackings or other types of attacks, including recent surveillance of federal buildings in New York. August 6, 2001, Bin Ladin Determined to Strike Inside US, http://www.cnn.com/2004/images/04/10/whitehouse.pdf
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#26 Old 07-27-2004, 07:23 AM
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Let me guess...you probably think that the Saudis were secretly flown out of the US when all other air traffic was banned, don't ya?



It seems to me that you missed the point of the movie.



Let me guess...you probably couldn't get past the physics-defying stunts in the Matrix Trilogy. "But people can't run on the walls!"



Tame, you missed the whole point of the movie. If you get stuck on a tiny thing about the dates and ignore the rest of the movie which was about how the current administration and the media have created a culture of fear in the US, then you missed the whole show.
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#27 Old 07-27-2004, 08:33 AM
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Tame, you missed the whole point of the movie. If you get stuck on a tiny thing about the dates and ignore the rest of the movie which was about how the current administration and the media have created a culture of fear in the US, then you missed the whole show.





Moore made it pretty clear the effort was to bash Bush.

Culture of fear? Uh, yeah. All a big lie. I mean, it's not like we were attacked or anything.



If Moore had such agreat point to prove...then why mislead and present facts in such a way to present rather warped conspiracy theories?

If Moore's case was so solid, why the need to do this?
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#28 Old 07-27-2004, 02:08 PM
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Moore made it pretty clear the effort was to bash Bush.

Culture of fear? Uh, yeah. All a big lie. I mean, it's not like we were attacked or anything.



Yeah, the US was attacked. I just don't think that a culture of "Red Alert Red Alert!!!" while saying, "act normal and make sure to buy" is really justified. If you don't feel manipulated, it must be because you actually believe that someone is after us because of our "freedom". I have read your posts, and you don't seem gulible, so it surprises me that you defend the culture of fear.



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If Moore had such agreat point to prove...then why mislead and present facts in such a way to present rather warped conspiracy theories?

If Moore's case was so solid, why the need to do this?



I think Moore's case was flawed. But the point of his movie wasn't: the media and the current administration manipulate the us for political gain by creating a culture of fear.
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#29 Old 07-27-2004, 02:30 PM
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<---------agrees with Tame.
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#30 Old 07-27-2004, 02:43 PM
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the worst part of the movie when that woman who lost her son in a helicopter accident was confronted by the other woman who didnt believe that she had lost her son.



i was so unbelievably angry at all of that. and the george orwell quote at the very very end was very very sad too.
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