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#1 Old 05-14-2015, 09:10 AM
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Waiting for god

I noticed a post on Facebook this morning with the attached image. This post is nothing against the friend I saw it from, for I adore him and would hate him to think this was an attack. I simply saw it as... curious.

It goes to one of my main complaints against religion or the belief in a supreme deity. This idea that you wait and let the deity open doors for you, will things to happen for you, fate, destiny, blah blah blah.

It takes responsibility and accomplishment away from hard work or laziness. Why would anyone wait for god to do anything? Why not try to open the doors for yourself or break them down trying? Why take such a passive 'along-for-the-ride' approach to life?

Everything that has happened in my life - and everyone else's - is the result of conscious and constant decisions. I have worked exceedingly hard to be where I am, and it irritates me when people say things like "god wills it" or "god has certainly opened a lot of doors for you." No. That was me, opening doors for myself.

And think of the total privilege of statements like that. God sure opens a lot of doors for westerners, but not so many for the poor, hungry, and people who were not lucky enough to be born in an overly privileged nation. Even those who were lucky enough to be born to a gluttonous nation are not all lucky enough to reap the benefit. Are the homeless due to mental illness and sheer misfortune waiting for god to open a door for them? What about the African American males who are constantly told by the media and infrastructural policies that their lives matter less than a white person's?
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#2 Old 05-14-2015, 09:13 AM
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I agree with what you say River.


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#3 Old 05-14-2015, 09:43 AM
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#4 Old 05-14-2015, 09:57 AM
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river i completely agree with you on that
so much so I'm actually going to like it
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#5 Old 05-14-2015, 10:24 AM
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Everything that has happened in my life - and everyone else's - is the result of conscious and constant decisions. I have worked exceedingly hard to be where I am, and it irritates me when people say things like "god wills it" or "god has certainly opened a lot of doors for you." No. That was me, opening doors for myself.
This! Of all of the great and admirable decisions and actions I've made in my life, I have made just as many, if not more; moronic, ignorant and unfortunately, sometimes mean spirited and deplorable decisions and actions as well, but they have all been my decisions to make. in my mind, and what I fortunately came to figure out fairly young in life, good or bad, I was the one who would be the one responsible for my actions. that doesn't mean I've made all good ones, but I couldn't imagine it differently.

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#6 Old 05-14-2015, 10:32 AM
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The maker of the poster above is actually in violation of Commandment 3 - You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain, for the LORD will not hold him guiltless who takes His name in vain. Jokes apart there is substantial new-age philosophy in the current religions. God itself is an over-used term, its short for the term Godan used in the Roman region to denote a force from beyond. Because English itself borrowed largely from Roman, Greek & German words, God became universally known. The term is partly of Sanskrit-Paganic origin (something hated by Semitic religions).

Knowing both the Old Testament & New, I feel there's a huge difference between them in terms of logic & commandments. The O.T focusses more on creation & rules on how to live whereas N.T goes into deeper & deeper into the unknowns, i.e stuff like God is with you always & is in control as long as you reach out to him. This is funny because of a particularly large loophole - freewill. Freewill or the power to define your own destiny has been described several times in N.T and then they also say God will decide to interfere in the destiny and undo anything as long as one prays to him. Basically if you can find a right balance of doing anything via freewill and praying hard enough then the 2 cancel each other out.

When facing difficulties, religion helps people to :
- Call the situation as God's will
- Console themselves thinking that they are being tested
- Thinking that the test will end soon and they shall be awarded if they pass it
- Assume God has the best in mind for them so they must accept the new situation

When people are happy religion helps them to :
- Show modesty by crediting God
- Praising & hoping that this feeling never ends
- Praying to reach newer heights

Ancient philosophy was far more sorted & practical with poems/odes being sung in the form of prayer to the elements like earth, fire, rain etc but ever since the modern bible religions have become a joke because of too much dilution. I'm not saying any religion ever made sense, none of them did but today its become worse with most people tweaking the ancient scriptures to their own convenience and printing them as facts. "Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people" - Karl Marx

Source : Plenty of research to expose the mistranslated lies of religions.
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#7 Old 05-14-2015, 10:52 AM
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as an athiest, and real life poor person (lol) I agree heartily River.
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#8 Old 05-14-2015, 12:16 PM
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This is an interesting topic, and I tend to agree with River.


However, aren't you worried that these types of posts may alienate some of our members from the vegetarian diet? If we really want to save animals and improve health, then EVERYONE needs to adopt a plant-based diet, not just agnostics and atheists. Maybe we should remind ourselves that one of the largest, (mostly) vegetarian communities in the West are the 7th Day Adventist Christians. The Adventist Health Study is one of the largest mixed-population vegetarian/omnivore health studies ever done, and vegan health proponents (like Dr. Michael Greger) cite this study.
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#9 Old 05-14-2015, 12:31 PM
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This is an interesting topic, and I tend to agree with River.


However, aren't you worried that these types of posts may alienate some of our members from the vegetarian diet? If we really want to save animals and improve health, then EVERYONE needs to adopt a plant-based diet, not just agnostics and atheists. Maybe we should remind ourselves that one of the largest, (mostly) vegetarian communities in the West are the 7th Day Adventist Christians. The Adventist Health Study is one of the largest mixed-population vegetarian/omnivore health studies ever done, and vegan health proponents (like Dr. Michael Greger) cite this study.
I don't see that my thread has anything to do with vegetarianism, animal rights, animal welfare, etc. The Compost Heap is to discuss all manner of contentious topics, not just those vegetarian ones.

I would never seek to pander to any group, simply to avoid alienation. If a religious person, including my friend on Facebook who made the original post (and is also a member here) would like to defend the idea, I would love that. It is only through listening and discussion that any learning can be done. If someone is so insecure in their beliefs (vegetarian or religious) that they cannot defend them or weather an offense, they are not stable beliefs anyway.
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#10 Old 05-14-2015, 12:49 PM
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Please understand - I definitely understand the importance of rational scientific inquiry. However, we must ensure that the "refusal to pander" doesn't become the "refusal to allow people their comforting, mostly harmless beliefs". In the vegetarian/vegan community, this is especially important. Where I live, almost all of vegetarian restaurants are owned not by agnostics, but by Buddhists and New Age adherents. The world's largest vegan restaurant chain, Loving Hut, is a franchise owned by students of Suma Ching Hai, a guru who is considered controversial by many.
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#11 Old 05-14-2015, 12:53 PM
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Please understand - I definitely understand the importance of rational scientific inquiry. However, we must ensure that the "refusal to pander" doesn't become the "refusal to allow people their comforting, mostly harmless beliefs". In the vegetarian/vegan community, this is especially important. Where I live, almost all of vegetarian restaurants are owned not by agnostics, but by Buddhists and New Age adherents. The world's largest vegan restaurant chain, Loving Hut, is a franchise owned by students of Suma Ching Hai, a guru who is considered controversial by many.
Many years ago this area of the board was full of topics ranging from the (ridiculously long) abortion thread, and merits of the belief in Jesus. Back then, most members knew that thread in here are contentious and often heated.

I think if people are uncomfortable or do not want to partake in contentious debate, to avoid them.

I think the argument could also be made that while comforting, religious beliefs are far from mostly harmless.
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#12 Old 05-14-2015, 09:29 PM
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If someone is so insecure in their beliefs (vegetarian or religious) that they cannot defend them or weather an offense, they are not stable beliefs anyway.
That thrusts both ways. Those who must contest the beliefs of others, because they do not align with their own, cannot be very stable in their own faith- or lack of it- too. Attack and destruction are foundations of bigotry.

Those who are fortunate to have a relationship with a Supreme Being (like your friend) may find it more useful to spend a moment in affirmation, rather than denial. There is some nice poetry in religion too.

Besides, isn't blaming religion for the world's problems the same as blaming "God?" That's a very un-atheist thing to do. You can, with better justification, blame politics and economics for the bad stuff that happens. Humans create wickedness, not the Great Spirit.
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#13 Old 05-14-2015, 09:51 PM
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Not everyone who believes in God believes in the God of Christians, or the god of any religion. I think it shows a fundamental lack of knowledge and a limited, or even warped, worldview to think that every concept of God is like those that the various religions preach. All my atheist friends are smart enough to know this, but the current trendiness of atheism seems to include too many people who just spout atheism without understanding the bigger picture. My many atheist friends have mentioned this pocket of ignorance and are concerned, but as with anything that gets popular, it gets watered-down by the bandwagoners. The current trendiness of atheism contradicts my experiences with atheists, in that they've all done extensive research and can speak eloquently on the topic of world religions, traditions and philosophies. Too many atheists now have very little knowledge of anything but atheism. ...More's the pity.
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#14 Old 05-15-2015, 02:55 AM
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That thrusts both ways. Those who must contest the beliefs of others, because they do not align with their own, cannot be very stable in their own faith- or lack of it- too.
It doesn't make sense this way around. You're saying that people who criticize belief in the existence of God are themselves unsure of their own belief in the non-existence of God? That's not how the burden of proof works.

If you say to me that you've been communicating with the ghost of Michael Jackson and I'm sceptical of this, I might ask you to explain how ghosts exist, or why Michael Jackson decided to contact you rather than a member of his family, or about any of the other logical holes in your story. If you, then, can't offer anything as explanation and simply call me a bigot for criticizing your faith, you're showing a marked lack of understanding of your own belief system. Someone who truly communicates with Michael Jackson's ghost would have already pondered all these questions before, would have studied Michael Jackson's discography at length, and would be able to offer at least a passable explanation for the inconsistencies in his claim of paranormal communication. My asking you about it in the first place doesn't somehow imply that I secretly believe I've been communicating with ghosts, too.

Similarly, anyone who's serious about their belief in God will be able to offer an insightful answer to River's legitimate questions about the intersection of free will and God's will. It's a topic discussed at great length by biblical scholars, and anyone of faith will have considered this question before and come up with an answer acceptable to himself. Sharing it would be a wonderful exercise in affirmation, since Christians are encouraged to go out and spread the word about Christ.

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Besides, isn't blaming religion for the world's problems the same as blaming "God?" That's a very un-atheist thing to do. You can, with better justification, blame politics and economics for the bad stuff that happens. Humans create wickedness, not the Great Spirit.
Blaming religion is in no way analogous to blaming God. Religion is an existing, measurable human construct which manifests itself as a widespread system of churches, synagogues, mosques, and temples with hundreds or thousands of individual members each, many of them occupying positions of power in various world governments and military forces. Various religions have, throughout history, exercised their power by conquering lands and mass murdering non-believers. Today, religion exerts its power by the oppression of women and GLBTQ+ people through laws which limit their freedoms, and through a seemingly never-ending war over holy land which has cost thousands upon thousands of innocent lives. Religion exerts its power by making the genital mutilation of women and young boys an acceptable or even sacred practice, even in the United States. I fail to see how religion could ever be considered "harmless," or why its critics should be silenced in the name of tolerance.

God exerts no power because God is a story we tell ourselves, a story we've told ourselves for as long as we've been self-aware. Like all myths, the stories we tell about God convey certain deep truths-- not about the universe, but about ourselves. I'm very much interested in the truths hidden inside our mythology and folklore, and very able to recognize their inherent beauty and worth. This does not mean that I condone blind faith to any iteration of God. If someone is to call themselves a true believer, she should be familiar with her chosen religious texts and able to explain and defend her beliefs in the face of criticism. There is no worth in claiming allegiance to a God you've barely thought about simply because your parents took you to church as a child, and much less worth in using your shaky understanding of that God to justify your own hatred and bigotry of others.

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#15 Old 05-15-2015, 05:17 AM
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It doesn't make sense this way around. You're saying that people who criticize belief in the existence of God are themselves unsure of their own belief in the non-existence of God? That's not how the burden of proof works.

If you say to me that you've been communicating with the ghost of Michael Jackson and I'm sceptical of this, I might ask you to explain how ghosts exist, .... My asking you about it in the first place doesn't somehow imply that I secretly believe I've been communicating with ghosts, too.
Now lets change your argument to something less mystic
Lets say instead of being skeptical about somebody's God, you are questioning their theory that they were born gay and it is not a choice, or maybe you are one of those that are for your own personal reasons, against gay equality. The common comeback among much of the LGBT crowd is, those against it are secretly hiding their own repressed homosexual desires.
I personally dont agree with this. I can see both sides of the coin and try to respect the opinions even if they dont coincide with my personal desire.
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#16 Old 05-15-2015, 07:32 AM
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It doesn't make sense this way around.
Perhaps not to you, but yours is not the only point of view on earth.

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You're saying that people who criticize belief in the existence of God are themselves unsure of their own belief in the non-existence of God?
That's exactly what I'm saying; otherwise, why would they resort to criticism? It's a defensive measure. The best defence is a good offense.

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That's not how the burden of proof works.
That's exactly how the burden of proof works. Both ways. Your belief in logic is every bit as much an act of faith as anyone's. You can no more prove the infallibility of logic or the non-existence of a Creator than the faithful person can prove otherwise. You're only using double-negatives as some sort of semantic lever. Everyone believes and has faith in something. You choose your faith, while others choose their own. Like it or not, you are a person of faith too, and trying to force a burden of proof onto others is just another attack mechanism, part of your defense of your own belief-system, which apparently has not proven itself to your own satisfaction.

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If you say to me that you've been communicating with the ghost of Michael Jackson and I'm sceptical of this, I might ask you to explain how ghosts exist, or why Michael Jackson decided to contact you rather than a member of his family, or about any of the other logical holes in your story. If you, then, can't offer anything as explanation and simply call me a bigot for criticizing your faith, you're showing a marked lack of understanding of your own belief system. Someone who truly communicates with Michael Jackson's ghost would have already pondered all these questions before, would have studied Michael Jackson's discography at length, and would be able to offer at least a passable explanation for the inconsistencies in his claim of paranormal communication. My asking you about it in the first place doesn't somehow imply that I secretly believe I've been communicating with ghosts, too.
Really, no whey jose? Michael Jackson?? I expected better from you.

Hypotheticals ("If you were marooned on a deserted island...") is poor debate, the stuff of sophistry, and the last resort of those who are unsure. You'll pardon me, if I fail to fall into your "trap."

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Similarly, anyone who's serious about their belief in God will be able to offer an insightful answer to River's legitimate questions about the intersection of free will and God's will. It's a topic discussed at great length by biblical scholars, and anyone of faith will have considered this question before and come up with an answer acceptable to himself. Sharing it would be a wonderful exercise in affirmation, since Christians are encouraged to go out and spread the word about Christ.
One answer I find useful is,

"The dominion of God is easier to bear than the tyranny of men."

I'm sorry, I don't know who said it, but I sincerely believe, without submission to the Creator's will- that is, left to his own devices- the human race would long ago have driven itself into extinction or de-evolution.

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Blaming religion is in no way analogous to blaming God. Religion is an existing, measurable human construct which manifests itself as a widespread system of churches, synagogues, mosques, and temples with hundreds or thousands of individual members each, many of them occupying positions of power in various world governments and military forces. Various religions have, throughout history, exercised their power by conquering lands and mass murdering non-believers. Today, religion exerts its power by the oppression of women and GLBTQ+ people through laws which limit their freedoms, and through a seemingly never-ending war over holy land which has cost thousands upon thousands of innocent lives. Religion exerts its power by making the genital mutilation of women and young boys an acceptable or even sacred practice, even in the United States. I fail to see how religion could ever be considered "harmless," or why its critics should be silenced in the name of tolerance.
I think you solve your own quandary, when you deviate from the subject of religion to those of governments and military forces. This is where the problem is. Religion is just a series of books. Do you really think burning those books will end the tyranny of people over people? Think again. Those men of power you cited, who also attend church, represent only the smallest fraction of the faithful. You should be grateful they go to church; otherwise, you might find out how truly wicked they can be. Religion may be the only thing holding them back.

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God exerts no power because God is a story we tell ourselves, a story we've told ourselves for as long as we've been self-aware. Like all myths, the stories we tell about God convey certain deep truths-- not about the universe, but about ourselves. I'm very much interested in the truths hidden inside our mythology and folklore, and very able to recognize their inherent beauty and worth. This does not mean that I condone blind faith to any iteration of God. If someone is to call themselves a true believer, she should be familiar with her chosen religious texts and able to explain and defend her beliefs in the face of criticism. There is no worth in claiming allegiance to a God you've barely thought about simply because your parents took you to church as a child, and much less worth in using your shaky understanding of that God to justify your own hatred and bigotry of others.
You are correct. God exerts no power. If you and River knew more about religion, you might understand the Great Spirit's first concern for mankind is that we be free. He has ways of teaching us, and of testing us, but forces nothing on us. Force is a human practice.
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#17 Old 05-15-2015, 08:04 AM
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God exerts no power. If you and River knew more about religion, you might understand the Great Spirit's first concern for mankind is that we be free. He has ways of teaching us, and of testing us, but forces nothing on us. Force is a human practice.
While I disagree with the details and the gender-specific language, I agree with the overall POV that there is no exertion of power or force on the part of God. In fact, many people understand God to be simply the totality of everything that exists, a combined energy that we are all a part of and not separate from. (This is actually antithetical to most religions and traditions.)

And btw...not directed at Capstan... Ridicule is such an intellectually lazy way to disagree (and juvenile, to boot). It always, always highlights a fundamental lack of knowledge, experience, understanding and maturity.
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#18 Old 05-15-2015, 08:24 AM
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That thrusts both ways. Those who must contest the beliefs of others, because they do not align with their own, cannot be very stable in their own faith- or lack of it- too. Attack and destruction are foundations of bigotry.
[Emphasis added] I agree with your statement simply due to your use of the word 'must'. Yes, anyone who has to stop and critisize or critique religions is likely waivering on some point of belief or fact. But I don't think anyone who ever critisizes or critiques religion is on personal unsure footing with religion. I think critisizm of religion is necesarry due to the emphasis religion plays in the daily life of nearly every human on planet, atheist, observent and other. My criticism stays largely rooted with the Judeo-Christian theology. It is, in my view, the most harmful and delusional. I do not fault people for wanting to believe or truly deeply believing in a supreme diety or variety of deities, I cannot prove that idea wrong and I am not sure I would want to. But if some things can be proven wrong, or harmful, then they should be. Like the Judeo-Christian god.

Attack and destruction are foundations of bigotry, you're right.

Healthy criticism and debate, are not.


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Those who are fortunate to have a relationship with a Supreme Being (like your friend) may find it more useful to spend a moment in affirmation, rather than denial. There is some nice poetry in religion too.

Besides, isn't blaming religion for the world's problems the same as blaming "God?" That's a very un-atheist thing to do. You can, with better justification, blame politics and economics for the bad stuff that happens. Humans create wickedness, not the Great Spirit.
I wouldn't say I am blaming 'god' for anything, I would say the belief and affirmation above is deeply delusional and privledged. I think this idea that a god cares about some people specifically and others not so much, is one of the largest ills of this world. Statements like the poster above exemplify this priviledged and self-centered world view.
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#19 Old 05-15-2015, 08:32 AM
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You are correct. God exerts no power. If you and River knew more about religion, you might understand the Great Spirit's first concern for mankind is that we be free. He has ways of teaching us, and of testing us, but forces nothing on us. Force is a human practice.
This is true.
the greatest gift God gave man was free will. If you stand there waiting for God to open that door, you are going to stand there for a long time. He is not going to do it. He will however guide you to open the right one.
Now, as far as those upset with the religious that think God is going to open it for them? you guys should appreciate this, not be upset.
lets say behind the door is that last great meal that will ever be served, Mr wait for God to get the door is standing there waiting, this means you can get there late, walk right on past the ones waiting on God to get there, open the door and get the meal.
You eat and they dont.
See how that works out for you?
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#20 Old 05-15-2015, 08:53 AM
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My criticism stays largely rooted with the Judeo-Christian theology.
Christians always consider themselves as the cousins of Jewish people, I'm sure the term Judeo-Christian has been coined by a New-Testament believer. From what I know Christianity has about as many things common with Judaism as cheese & chalk. Somehow I find the Jewish beliefs like Yom Kippur, Shabbat etc a little bit more sincere & traditional. The Torah never directly mentions what happens in afterlife except through terms like Olam-Haba or Gehinnom. It more or less outlines the way of life in those times.

I find it surprising that Christians accepted the Jewish Abram (Abraham) & Moshe (Moses) as their own, yet even though Yeshu (Jesus) never fulfilled the messianic prophesies as per Eziekiel they still saw him as the new messiah as per Torah. Islam did the same with Mohammed. Hence neither can be counted as even remotely related to Judaism.
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#21 Old 05-15-2015, 09:17 AM
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River, I completely agree with your post! It really drives me crazy too when people thank god but not doctors when a surgery goes well. Or when someone does something good it always "gods" will never the hard work of the person. It drives me crazy.
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#22 Old 05-15-2015, 09:26 AM
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That's exactly what I'm saying; otherwise, why would they resort to criticism? It's a defensive measure.
What a silly thing to say! There are plenty of valid reasons to criticize ideas and beliefs. If you tell me that you believe that my name is Bob or that cats are a type of flower, would my scepticism be a signal that I subconsciously believe you? If I criticize a person's racist remark, am I expressing my hidden inner racism? That just doesn't make sense-- in a logical sense, not just to me, personally.

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Really, no whey jose? Michael Jackson?? I expected better from you.

Hypotheticals ("If you were marooned on a deserted island...") is poor debate, the stuff of sophistry, and the last resort of those who are unsure. You'll pardon me, if I fail to fall into your "trap."
Sorry to disappoint you, Dad.

It wasn't a hypothetical situation. It was an analogy, which is a perfectly valid tool in a debate. Regardless of the paranormal claim you're making-- that you commune with God or with a deceased pop singer-- it's your responsibility to provide at least a plausible explanation, if not proof. Otherwise we could all make whatever outrageous claims we like without facing any criticism and without ever having to explain ourselves, and what kind of madness would that be?

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You should be grateful they go to church; otherwise, you might find out how truly wicked they can be. Religion may be the only thing holding them back.
You believe this to be true of the religious men fighting over holy land in the middle east-- fighting because each side believes that God has promised that land to them alone?

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You are correct. God exerts no power. If you and River knew more about religion, you might understand the Great Spirit's first concern for mankind is that we be free.
That's awfully presumptuous of you. I don't know River's religious background, but I've personally been studying religion for many years, including Catholic school, various camps and retreats, a year volunteering for the Salvation Army, and weekly bible studies. I've found that I am much better versed in the Bible than many I've met who call themselves Christian!
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#23 Old 05-15-2015, 09:28 AM
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That's awfully presumptuous of you. [...] I've found that I am much better versed in the Bible than many I've met who call themselves Christian!
Agree.
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Last edited by River; 05-15-2015 at 10:26 AM.
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#24 Old 05-15-2015, 09:32 AM
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Judaism, Christianity, and Islam are Abrahamic religions. They have a shared heritage.

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Abrahamic_religion

http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/...amic_religions
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#25 Old 05-15-2015, 09:58 AM
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Christians always consider themselves as the cousins of Jewish people, I'm sure the term Judeo-Christian has been coined by a New-Testament believer. From what I know Christianity has about as many things common with Judaism as cheese & chalk. Somehow I find the Jewish beliefs like Yom Kippur, Shabbat etc a little bit more sincere & traditional. The Torah never directly mentions what happens in afterlife except through terms like Olam-Haba or Gehinnom. It more or less outlines the way of life in those times.

I find it surprising that Christians accepted the Jewish Abram (Abraham) & Moshe (Moses) as their own, yet even though Yeshu (Jesus) never fulfilled the messianic prophesies as per Eziekiel they still saw him as the new messiah as per Torah. Islam did the same with Mohammed. Hence neither can be counted as even remotely related to Judaism.
I agree with this. I account both Christianity and Islam to be "false religions," possibly inspired by deranged prophets, who sought to deceive men, and for a spell, have succeeded. But they won't last. Religion is an enormously long-term proposition. Nothing in human society has lasted longer. Nations come and go, but faith abides.

I think Judaism will survive, though not necessarily in the Middle East. I disagree with Zionism, and think it invalid to the Judaic tradition.
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"There is more wisdom in the song of a bird, than in the speech of a philosopher...." -Oahspe
"The thing is, you cannot judge a race. Any man who judges by the group is a pea-wit. You take men one at a time." -Buster Kilrain, The Killer Angels -Michael Shaara
"Anyone who doesn't believe in miracles isn't a realist." -Billy Wilder
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#26 Old 05-15-2015, 10:11 AM
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I'd just like to point out that in River's post #23 above, I'm credited with the following post:

Originally Posted by Capstan
That's awfully presumptuous of you. [...] I've found that I am much better versed in the Bible than many I've met who call themselves Christian!

This is not from any of my posts. It's from no whey jose's post #22. I never said this.

I don't know how this happened. Maybe it's the hand of Allah at work?
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"There is more wisdom in the song of a bird, than in the speech of a philosopher...." -Oahspe
"The thing is, you cannot judge a race. Any man who judges by the group is a pea-wit. You take men one at a time." -Buster Kilrain, The Killer Angels -Michael Shaara
"Anyone who doesn't believe in miracles isn't a realist." -Billy Wilder
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#27 Old 05-15-2015, 10:11 AM
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I disagree with Zionism, and think it invalid to the Judaic tradition.
Agree. Zionism is all about 'occupy Israel', problem is a substantial percentage of them are Ashkenazi with imprecise knowledge of their roots. The original Jews were Sephardic settlers. The reason they are so few in number is because of their dedication in keeping the religion strictly within the Abrahamic lineage, they never resorted to mass-conversions like the other two so called religions.
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#28 Old 05-15-2015, 10:26 AM
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I'd just like to point out that in River's post #23 above, I'm credited with the following post:

Originally Posted by Capstan
That's awfully presumptuous of you. [...] I've found that I am much better versed in the Bible than many I've met who call themselves Christian!

This is not from any of my posts. It's from no whey jose's post #22. I never said this.

I don't know how this happened. Maybe it's the hand of Allah at work?
I think that was my fail at quoting I shall edit that now
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#29 Old 05-15-2015, 10:38 AM
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Not everyone who believes in God believes in the God of Christians, or the god of any religion. I think it shows a fundamental lack of knowledge and a limited, or even warped, worldview to think that every concept of God is like those that the various religions preach. All my atheist friends are smart enough to know this, but the current trendiness of atheism seems to include too many people who just spout atheism without understanding the bigger picture. My many atheist friends have mentioned this pocket of ignorance and are concerned, but as with anything that gets popular, it gets watered-down by the bandwagoners. The current trendiness of atheism contradicts my experiences with atheists, in that they've all done extensive research and can speak eloquently on the topic of world religions, traditions and philosophies. Too many atheists now have very little knowledge of anything but atheism. ...More's the pity.
Unfortunately, I have noticed this uptick in what ive been calling Instagram Atheists who seem to think, atheism is nothing more than childishly mocking other's religions and wearing clothes with inverted crosses on them and this is some form of Super Badass Rebellion. i'll admit, I've never read the bible or any scripture from any other religions, nor do i plan to. i stay out of the politics of people's religions and beliefs for the simple fact that for as long as i can remember, I've just never thought there was anything beyond this life, nothing political or malicious behind it, its just what gets me through the day i suppose. whatever the person next to me believes in, that gets them through the day, as long as it doesn't interfere with me or the rights of others, is absolutely fine. i think the line is crossed, not just with religious beliefs but many aspects of life, when people try and push their beliefs or lack of on others. a catholic doesn't want to hear about my argument for a disbelief in god, (which is good because it would be an awfully short conversation, ' i dunno, it doesn't sound right to me') anymore than i want to hear an argument for their flavor of god.

i don't identify as an atheist or nihilist, i don't need to, it has no impact on my life as i spend literally no time thinking of a god, a religion or the arguments for or against them.

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#30 Old 05-15-2015, 11:01 AM
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Originally Posted by River View Post
I think that was my fail at quoting I shall edit that now
I forgive you, River. I shall not stone you to death!
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"There is more wisdom in the song of a bird, than in the speech of a philosopher...." -Oahspe
"The thing is, you cannot judge a race. Any man who judges by the group is a pea-wit. You take men one at a time." -Buster Kilrain, The Killer Angels -Michael Shaara
"Anyone who doesn't believe in miracles isn't a realist." -Billy Wilder
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