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#1 Old 05-12-2015, 03:37 AM
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Feminism

I know it's a completely unrelated issue, but it kind of reminds me how so many famous women would say that they're not a feminist because everyone had/has such a negative view of the word. I mean, God forbid their name goes on record for supporting equal rights
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#2 Old 05-12-2015, 05:47 AM
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I know it's a completely unrelated issue, but it kind of reminds me how so many famous women would say that they're not a feminist because everyone had/has such a negative view of the word. I mean, God forbid their name goes on record for supporting equal rights
It's probably because the loudest group of 'feminists' are third wave maniacs.
I stick with egalitarian (for equal rights for everyone, no connotations that it's for either gender).

A guy tried to tell me that they were the same thing and that I was sexist for not letting a movement be named femininely. Goddamn hipsters.
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#3 Old 05-12-2015, 06:27 AM
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It's probably because the loudest group of 'feminists' are third wave maniacs.
I stick with egalitarian (for equal rights for everyone, no connotations that it's for either gender).

A guy tried to tell me that they were the same thing and that I was sexist for not letting a movement be named femininely. Goddamn hipsters.
I think you're referring to the radical feminists, but they are definitely the minority. And I hear more about them in the history of feminism rather than in today's news. Also (in my experience), I see more people complain about 'feminazis' than the actual 'feminazis' themselves.

And you do realise egalitarianism and feminism are pretty much the same thing, right? Feminism is just called feminism because it's the female gender that has less rights and the whole movement is about achieving equal rights.
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#4 Old 05-12-2015, 07:30 AM
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It's probably because the loudest group of 'feminists' are third wave maniacs.
I stick with egalitarian (for equal rights for everyone, no connotations that it's for either gender).

A guy tried to tell me that they were the same thing and that I was sexist for not letting a movement be named femininely. Goddamn hipsters.
Feminism is a movement designed to seek equal opportunities for women. If you are a proponent for equal rights, then congratulations-- you're a feminist. The movement is so named because women are the ones being discriminated against. Feminism does not mean something equivalent to "female supremacy," no matter how much misogynists insist otherwise.
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#5 Old 05-12-2015, 03:46 PM
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I'm not so sure about feminism being the same as egalitarianism. I've never seen anyone who calls themselves a feminist fight for equal prison sentences, equal treatment in custody battles, the draft, or protection of genitalia (circumcision for women is illegal even with consent, but legal for men without consent in some countries). A man can be raped while unconscious (or raped as a minor) and still be forced to pay child support. Affirmative action supports women over men in the workplace. Men are banned from sitting next to unaccompanied children on some airlines because they're not trusted.
Just what issue are feminists fighting for? Don't say an equal wage, because the myth about differing wages has long since been debunked.

I will believe feminism is the same as egalitarianism when the majority of feminists fight to fix these issues. A few feminists might be fighting these issues, but until it's the majority, I'll still believe that feminism is for women only.
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#6 Old 05-12-2015, 04:14 PM
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I'm not so sure about feminism being the same as egalitarianism. I've never seen anyone who calls themselves a feminist fight for equal prison sentences, equal treatment in custody battles, the draft, or protection of genitalia (circumcision for women is illegal even with consent, but legal for men without consent in some countries). A man can be raped while unconscious (or raped as a minor) and still be forced to pay child support. Affirmative action supports women over men in the workplace. Men are banned from sitting next to unaccompanied children on some airlines because they're not trusted.
Just what issue are feminists fighting for? Don't say an equal wage, because the myth about differing wages has long since been debunked.

I will believe feminism is the same as egalitarianism when the majority of feminists fight to fix these issues. A few feminists might be fighting these issues, but until it's the majority, I'll still believe that feminism is for women only.
I had suspected from your username that you were connected to the misogynist group of the same name, though I'd sincerely hoped you were just a big fan of The Matrix.

It's ironic that you blame feminists for any of the issues you've just raised, since they're all the direct result of the societal inequality that feminists are fighting against.

I'll leave this here for you to read.

 

A List of “Men’s Rights” Issues That Feminism Is Already Working On

Feminists do not want you to lose custody of your children. The assumption that women are naturally better caregivers is part of patriarchy.

Feminists do not like commercials in which bumbling dads mess up the laundry and competent wives have to bustle in and fix it. The assumption that women are naturally better housekeepers is part of patriarchy.

Feminists do not want you to have to make alimony payments. Alimony is set up to combat the fact that women have been historically expected to prioritize domestic duties over professional goals, thus minimizing their earning potential if their “traditional” marriages end. The assumption that wives should make babies instead of money is part of patriarchy.

Feminists do not want anyone to get raped in prison. Permissiveness and jokes about prison rape are part of rape culture, which is part of patriarchy.

Feminists do not want anyone to be falsely accused of rape. False rape accusations discredit rape victims, which reinforces rape culture, which is part of patriarchy.

Feminists do not want you to be lonely and we do not hate “nice guys.” The idea that certain people are inherently more valuable than other people because of superficial physical attributes is part of patriarchy.

Feminists do not want you to have to pay for dinner. We want the opportunity to achieve financial success on par with men in any field we choose (and are qualified for), and the fact that we currently don’t is part of patriarchy. The idea that men should coddle and provide for women, and/or purchase their affections in romantic contexts, is condescending and damaging and part of patriarchy.

Feminists do not want you to be maimed or killed in industrial accidents, or toil in coal mines while we do cushy secretarial work and various yarn-themed activities. The fact that women have long been shut out of dangerous industrial jobs (by men, by the way) is part of patriarchy.

Feminists do not want you to commit suicide. Any pressures and expectations that lower the quality of life of any gender are part of patriarchy. The fact that depression is characterized as an effeminate weakness, making men less likely to seek treatment, is part of patriarchy.

Feminists do not want you to be viewed with suspicion when you take your child to the park (men frequently insist that this is a serious issue, so I will take them at their word). The assumption that men are insatiable sexual animals, combined with the idea that it’s unnatural for men to care for children, is part of patriarchy.

Feminists do not want you to be drafted and then die in a war while we stay home and iron stuff. The idea that women are too weak to fight or too delicate to function in a military setting is part of patriarchy.

Feminists do not want women to escape prosecution on legitimate domestic violence charges, nor do we want men to be ridiculed for being raped or abused. The idea that women are naturally gentle and compliant and that victimhood is inherently feminine is part of patriarchy.

Feminists hate patriarchy. We do not hate you.

If you really care about those issues as passionately as you say you do, you should be thanking feminists, because feminism is a social movement actively dedicated to dismantling every single one of them. The fact that you blame feminists—your allies—for problems against which they have been struggling for decades suggests that supporting men isn’t nearly as important to you as resenting women. We care about your problems a lot. Could you try caring about ours?

 

Excerpt from If I Admit That Hating Men is a Thing, Will You Stop Turning it Into a Self-fulfilling Prophecy?, by Lindy West
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#7 Old 05-12-2015, 08:18 PM
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I had suspected from your username that you were connected to the misogynist group of the same name, though I'd sincerely hoped you were just a big fan of The Matrix. -snip-
I do like the Matrix. I like the idea of the red pill; waking up and seeing the world for what it truly is. I don't know what this group you're talking about is.

Lindy West has some opinions. Writing them down doesn't make them fact. Her use of the term 'patriarchy' is not only wrong, but she's using it as a euphemism for "it's all men's fault". Her ideas of rape culture are so far from the truth it's not funny. Her remark about hating the patriarchy instead of men is basically saying "I don't hate men, but I hate them being in charge."

My attitude remains unchanged, until I see some actual progress to the issues I talked about, any talk of fixing them is just that: talk. From where I'm standing it's mostly lies to get the gullible on side.
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#8 Old 05-13-2015, 12:35 AM
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As some members want to talk about feminism (in the Beyonce thread) I've opened up this new thread, specifically on feminism and moved their posts here.

Leedsveg: Moderator Team
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#9 Old 05-13-2015, 01:18 AM
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"get the gullible on side"? it's patently obvious that you have no f***ing idea what the vast majority of women have to tolerate in their daily lives. Feminism is not, not, not an issue solely for women. It is cross gender, cross sexual preference, cross cultural and an issue where every egalitarian should be willing to stand up, be counted and openly support.

There is joy and beauty in everything around us, just take time to see it!

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#10 Old 05-13-2015, 03:02 AM
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I do like the Matrix. I like the idea of the red pill; waking up and seeing the world for what it truly is. I don't know what this group you're talking about is.
It's purely coincidental, then? That's a relief. There's a popular online group of men's rights proponents and "pick up artists" based primarily on Reddit that share your name. You could Google for it if you like, but fair warning: it's terrible.

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Lindy West has some opinions. Writing them down doesn't make them fact. Her use of the term 'patriarchy' is not only wrong, but she's using it as a euphemism for "it's all men's fault".
"Patriarchy is a social system in which: males hold primary power; males predominate in roles of political leadership, moral authority, social privilege and control of property; and, in the domain of the family, fathers or father-figures hold authority over women and children."

That's the widely agreed upon definition of the word. If you prefer to simplify it to mean "it's all men's fault," then that's your call (and your choice of words, not mine.) We live in a society that has always been dominated by men, a society whose laws and mores have been constructed by men. The very rules and regulations that you're railing against were written by men and are products of a culture where women have been systematically degraded and objectified. These same laws, mores, and social constructs negatively impact a large number of people (men included) in the same way that societal prejudices against GLBTQ+ affect straight people's ability to fully express their own identities-- as an example, a man reluctant to form a close emotional bond with a male friend for fear of being labelled gay and ridiculed. Prejudice and discrimination affect all of us. It would be ridiculous to vilify those who fight for acceptance of homosexuality because you believe that the *true* victims are straight men who can't express love for their buddies ("and where are our parades?!") You're fighting the same battle, and it sounds equally ridiculous to anyone with even a basic understanding of feminism.

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Her ideas of rape culture are so far from the truth it's not funny.
Please do enlighten us, then: what's the truth about rape culture?

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Her remark about hating the patriarchy instead of men is basically saying "I don't hate men, but I hate them being in charge."
Well, I agree-- with some clarification. I don't hate men, but I hate them being disproportionately in charge. I don't hate men, but I hate that although women make up around 51% of the population of the United States, we represent only around 17% of the US government. I don't hate men, but I hate the fact that we place 73rd in a world-wide ranking of women in parliament, coming in below such famously tolerant nations such as Uganda, Cuba, Afghanistan, and Iraq.

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My attitude remains unchanged, until I see some actual progress to the issues I talked about, any talk of fixing them is just that: talk.
Then perhaps you should stop vilifying feminists on the internet and instead join them in their attempts to ensure a fair and equal political climate. Here is a link to various programs, including the Polaris Project and the Rape, Abuse, and Incest National Network, to which you could donate your time or money:

http://feministactivism.com/tag/usa/
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#11 Old 05-13-2015, 05:26 AM
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It's purely coincidental, then? That's a relief. There's a popular online group of men's rights proponents and "pick up artists" based primarily on Reddit that share your name. You could Google for it if you like, but fair warning: it's terrible.
Are these guys joking? They come across as a bunch of smug weirdos.


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"Patriarchy is a social system in which: males hold primary power; males predominate in roles of political leadership, moral authority, social privilege and control of property; and, in the domain of the family, fathers or father-figures hold authority over women and children."
Indeed it is. However that's not the case for western society, unlike what many feminists would have you believe. Men and women are equal in terms of political power (my country at least has had multiple female leaders), females hold more social privilege, control of property goes to whoever paid the major share, and finally, women typically hold authority over the children.

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That's the widely agreed upon definition of the word. If you prefer to simplify it to mean "it's all men's fault," then that's your call (and your choice of words, not mine.) We live in a society that has always been dominated by men, a society whose laws and mores have been constructed by men. The very rules and regulations that you're railing against were written by men and are products of a culture where women have been systematically degraded and objectified. These same laws, mores, and social constructs negatively impact a large number of people (men included) in the same way that societal prejudices against GLBTQ+ affect straight people's ability to fully express their own identities-- as an example, a man reluctant to form a close emotional bond with a male friend for fear of being labelled gay and ridiculed. Prejudice and discrimination affect all of us. It would be ridiculous to vilify those who fight for acceptance of homosexuality because you believe that the *true* victims are straight men who can't express love for their buddies ("and where are our parades?!") You're fighting the same battle, and it sounds equally ridiculous to anyone with even a basic understanding of feminism.
Lindy clearly isn't using the agreed upon definition of the word. Laws are heavily influenced by public demand, the public includes women. She talks big, but I don't see her taking any action towards the things she says.


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Please do enlighten us, then: what's the truth about rape culture?
Going by wikipedia definition: "Rape culture is a concept within feminist theory in which rape is pervasive and normalized due to societal attitudes about gender and sexuality."

This is totally wrong. Anyone who believes this simply doesn't pay attention to normal society. If I was accused of rape, accused, not even convicted, do you think my friends would look at me the same way again? Do you think my university would want me around? If any employer caught wind of it, my CV would binned straight away. Men have been assaulted and murdered after being accused of rape. Guilty until proven innocent? Not if you're accused of rape. Prosecutors are extra zealous when it comes to convicting rapists; universities take action when armed with only a shred of potential evidence. I even mentioned before, Airlines won't let men sit next to children for fear that they'll commit some unlawful act against them. Even men who have been proven innocent still receive unfair treatment (see Caleb Warner, banned from his university for year despite being proven innocent).

Western society does everything it can to stop rape, yet feminists still claim the opposite. I cannot express how utterly disgusted I am by this.
If feminists wanted to go fight a real rape culture, they would head to some god forsaken country in Africa or the Middle East; but it's easier for them to stay in relative safety of their country and blab on about fighting a non-issue.

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Well, I agree-- with some clarification. I don't hate men, but I hate them being disproportionately in charge. I don't hate men, but I hate that although women make up around 51% of the population of the United States, we represent only around 17% of the US government. I don't hate men, but I hate the fact that we place 73rd in a world-wide ranking of women in parliament, coming in below such famously tolerant nations such as Uganda, Cuba, Afghanistan, and Iraq.
Just because men are more dominant in a field, doesn't mean they're actively keeping women out of it. If there's evidence of men somehow stopping women from entering government, we'll fix it. If you haven't investigated the difference, don't default to the idea that "The patriarchy is keeping us down".



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Then perhaps you should stop vilifying feminists on the internet and instead join them in their attempts to ensure a fair and equal political climate. Here is a link to various programs, including the Polaris Project and the Rape, Abuse, and Incest National Network, to which you could donate your time or money:

http://feministactivism.com/tag/usa/

Do they support affirmative action? Because that's a huge deal breaker.
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#12 Old 05-13-2015, 06:14 AM
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There will always be differences/discrimination on this earth, but I still do believe that more than half of the people are quite neutral in their views. I'm all for equality of genders (why should there be any differences?). Its a globalised world now and there are more opportunities than ever for everyone & I think the situation today is better than ever with plenty of avenues to express opinions. If we look at it technically nowhere in reality is there proof that capabilities are defined by gender. Of course..

a) One cant help notice that most religions have a patriarchal outlook, though male scribes have had a hand in putting that into scriptures/tablets, it doesn't mean that they represent all of men to come. It just means that they wrote with those times in mind (yes women exploitation was prevalent in those times in the land of Canaan, Midian & neighbouring countries across Asia)

b) Stereotypes dog just about everyone today including males.

c) Unfortunately few cases of discrimination overshadows thousands of cases of equal-treatment, and it widens the gap even further.

d) Feminism at its core is a silent, intelligent movement but the world notices only those who shout about it the loudest - extremist ball busting misandrists. This widens the gap as the misogynists come out to retort.

If suppose someone started a Maleist movement it'd be the laughing stock of the earth, people would call out to the group as freaks and what not. I do understand the need to let the world know that women need to receive as much from opportunities as men do, but wasn't it already known? I really do not understand the source of thinking that led to oppression of female rights thus leading to creation of feminist groups to strike back, specially in democratic countries. As far as socialist & dictatorship countries go just about everyone get the stick there anyway.

There has to be no differences gender-wise, PERIOD. Any deviation from that only points to individual mind-sets.

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#13 Old 05-13-2015, 06:57 AM
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My biggest issue with womens rights is abortion.
before you attack, I think it is the womans choice up to a certain point in the pregnancy, after that point, it becomes questionable. at least to me.
The problem I have is this. Lets say she and he ( insert names if it helps) meet at a bar, have a few drinks then go back and drunkenly create a potential child.
She discovers this a few weeks later,
She can decide to abort if she does not want the child, however, he has no say if he should actually want that child.
She can decide to give birth to the child, he has no say if he would prefer not have a child.

Once the child is born, He will regardless of desire, be forced to pay support for 18 years or until the child is adopted by another man that she may or may not marry later on down the road.

I think that to make it equal (and this is about equality right?) when she finds out that she is pregnant, he at that time should have the option of signing a legal document stating that he either wants the child, and at that point maybe some form of financial restitution to her for carrying it should be made. or he does not want the child and should she have it she is doing it without any obligation or legal requirement for him to assist in the support of that child.

When it comes to support I always hear that it takes two to make the baby, but when it comes to decisions we only hear about the womans side of it.
Paying support can devistate a young mans life, can affect education, jobs, future relationships etc...
Until that is fixed, even though I am for choice, I will always vote for the pro-life side.
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#14 Old 05-13-2015, 08:04 AM
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I think that to make it equal (and this is about equality right?) when she finds out that she is pregnant, he at that time should have the option of signing a legal document stating that he either wants the child, and at that point maybe some form of financial restitution to her for carrying it should be made. or he does not want the child and should she have it she is doing it without any obligation or legal requirement for him to assist in the support of that child.
What you're describing is known as a "financial abortion." You may be surprised to know that it's an idea supported by many feminists (including the popular American feminist organization NOW.)

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When it comes to support I always hear that it takes two to make the baby, but when it comes to decisions we only hear about the womans side of it.
Paying support can devistate a young mans life, can affect education, jobs, future relationships etc...
That may be so, but consider the impact of pregnancy on the woman. Regardless of the choice she makes, she faces those same consequences plus extreme physical and psychological upset as well. Child support is an attempt to equalize something which is fundamentally unequal, because the man in your hypothetical could otherwise walk away from the situation entirely, while the woman doesn't have that luxury.

It's not a perfect system, and I truly can't think of a way to make the seriousness of pregnancy resonate as much with men as it does with women, other than to promote a culture where men are praised for taking responsibility for fatherhood, where parenting is seen as much of a father's job as it is a mother's.

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Until that is fixed, even though I am for choice, I will always vote for the pro-life side.
That's probably not the best tactic, since the pro-life ideal would be to remove the possibility of abortion entirely. The less accessible abortion is as an option, the more men will be paying child support for unwanted children, the more children will grow up in abusive and neglectful households, the more women will resort to drastic and dangerous methods of terminating a pregnancy-- not to mention the implications for women who become pregnant through rape or incest. I just can't see how aligning your vote with pro-lifers does any good, no matter how flawed you believe the current system to be.
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#15 Old 05-13-2015, 01:46 PM
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NEXT THE ULTIMATE SHOW DOWN MAN VS WOMAN
some men think there better than woman, some woman think there better than men,
get used to it I'm so sick of b'‘#ing on both sides

the whole feminist thing was just to get woman working nowadays both pedants go to work and leave little Johnny in a play school thats not right if a mother stays at home to mind her baby there nothing degrading about that you can't be completely equal on less we all get a sex change one way or the other traditionally men worked because they were physically stronger not because they wanted control
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#16 Old 05-13-2015, 11:52 PM
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Ooooh, my first time being sent to the compost heap!

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Western society does everything it can to stop rape, yet feminists still claim the opposite.
Maybe it's because the only thing western society does to stop rape is tell women to not go walking outside by themselves day or night, or drink at a party, or wear anything revealing, or anything else a woman should have the freedom to do. It's all about teaching women how not to get raped rather than teaching men not to rape.

And I have to admit I'm a bit surprised about your comments on universities, seeing as so many stories come out of the US alone about colleges not taking rape allegations seriously. I think it's because they don't want the bad publicity and/or the accused is on the honour roll or whatever. So the victims have the choice of either continuing their studies at that institution and seeing their rapist every day on campus or leaving and having to go elsewhere.

I wish I could comment more strongly on other points you've made, but I'm not as good as others with retaining information I have read in articles or heard from my feminist friends (and can't be bothered looking things up and posting the links tbh).

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Unfortunately few cases of discrimination overshadows thousands of cases of equal-treatment, and it widens the gap even further.
A few cases of discrimination? I'm sorry, but you could not be more wrong. I honestly don't know where to even begin with this one.

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I think that to make it equal (and this is about equality right?) when she finds out that she is pregnant, he at that time should have the option of signing a legal document stating that he either wants the child, and at that point maybe some form of financial restitution to her for carrying it should be made. or he does not want the child and should she have it she is doing it without any obligation or legal requirement for him to assist in the support of that child.
When you talk about signing that legal document, is that something the woman would have to agree to as well? As in, they both decide that he will not have any financial obligations to the child? Or he just gets to sign some form regardless of what she wants, that says 'lol i don't want this responsibility'? Because if it's the latter, I really don't agree... I mean, when you have sex with someone, there is always a chance of pregnancy. And by choosing to have sex, you take responsibility for any consequences. That's life.


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When it comes to support I always hear that it takes two to make the baby, but when it comes to decisions we only hear about the womans side of it.
Paying support can devistate a young mans life, can affect education, jobs, future relationships etc...
Until that is fixed, even though I am for choice, I will always vote for the pro-life side.
The woman is the one with the final decision because it is HER BODY. She's the one who has to carry the baby to term, whose body has to go through all of these changes. I don't know, maybe because I'm a girl it makes so much sense to me?

Oh and fyi, giving birth to a child can 'devastate' a young girl's life, can affect education, jobs, future relationships, etc... See what I did there? If the choice is made to keep the baby, both parents will be affected. It's called taking responsibility for your choice 9 months prior to have sexual intercourse.

And I agree with no whey, I don't think the issues you have with abortions should lead you to vote for pro-life. Pro-life honestly seems ridiculous to me. Women are always going to get abortions... Whether they are legal or illegal will depend on the laws. Women will always find a way to terminate their pregnancies if they choose to, so wouldn't you rather they did that in the safety of a clinic?
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#17 Old 05-14-2015, 05:11 AM
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Maybe it's because the only thing western society does to stop rape is tell women to not go walking outside by themselves day or night, or drink at a party, or wear anything revealing, or anything else a woman should have the freedom to do. It's all about teaching women how not to get raped rather than teaching men not to rape.


Your entire post was fantastic, but I'd like to highlight this passage in particular.

The responsibility of rape prevention is always placed on the potential victim, and there is a strong element of victim-blaming in every rape case-- what was she wearing? Was she leading him on? Had she been drinking? For this reason, a great many women keep their experiences of sexual harassment and assault to themselves.

A good friend of mine is running a campaign this month on Facebook where she shares true stories of sexual abuse, both her own and those of friends and readers who have written in. They range from schoolboys "playfully" unhooking a classmate's bra and joking about the size of her breasts to molestation at the hands of a friend's father, and a common theme throughout is the victim's shame and humiliation at having been singled out in that way. In many cases, if the victim summons the courage to speak up about the incident, she's either ignored by disbelieving family or mocked for being "easy."

Rape culture in our society extends far beyond the individual cases of physical assault. We live in an environment where it is common and acceptable for men to view women as objects, where men are allowed and even encouraged to comment upon our bodies publicly, to approach us on the street to proposition us for sex, and to ridicule us if we reject their advances. Street harassment is only just coming to light in the public eye despite having been a part of our society for decades. Is this the "social privilege" that @RedPill cites in his post?
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#18 Old 05-14-2015, 05:44 AM
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I'm not so sure about feminism being the same as egalitarianism. I've never seen anyone who calls themselves a feminist fight for equal prison sentences, equal treatment in custody battles, the draft, or protection of genitalia (circumcision for women is illegal even with consent, but legal for men without consent in some countries). A man can be raped while unconscious (or raped as a minor) and still be forced to pay child support. Affirmative action supports women over men in the workplace. Men are banned from sitting next to unaccompanied children on some airlines because they're not trusted.
Just what issue are feminists fighting for? Don't say an equal wage, because the myth about differing wages has long since been debunked.

I will believe feminism is the same as egalitarianism when the majority of feminists fight to fix these issues. A few feminists might be fighting these issues, but until it's the majority, I'll still believe that feminism is for women only.

have you seen the pic where equality doesn't mean equal justice? Sometimes women have to be given a little bit of advantage over men and cannot be treated like a man.

for example: You would probably try to exert maximum pain when fighting against a man. But if it's a woman you restrain your self. You don't beat them to a pulp shouting equality *****!

In anycase if you look at the world it's clear that women the are most at a disadvantage even in USA or UK.
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#19 Old 05-14-2015, 05:48 AM
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My biggest issue with womens rights is abortion.

before you attack, I think it is the womans choice up to a certain point in the pregnancy, after that point, it becomes questionable. at least to me.

The problem I have is this. Lets say she and he ( insert names if it helps) meet at a bar, have a few drinks then go back and drunkenly create a potential child.

She discovers this a few weeks later,

She can decide to abort if she does not want the child, however, he has no say if he should actually want that child.

She can decide to give birth to the child, he has no say if he would prefer not have a child.



Once the child is born, He will regardless of desire, be forced to pay support for 18 years or until the child is adopted by another man that she may or may not marry later on down the road.



I think that to make it equal (and this is about equality right?) when she finds out that she is pregnant, he at that time should have the option of signing a legal document stating that he either wants the child, and at that point maybe some form of financial restitution to her for carrying it should be made. or he does not want the child and should she have it she is doing it without any obligation or legal requirement for him to assist in the support of that child.



When it comes to support I always hear that it takes two to make the baby, but when it comes to decisions we only hear about the womans side of it.

Paying support can devistate a young mans life, can affect education, jobs, future relationships etc...

Until that is fixed, even though I am for choice, I will always vote for the pro-life side.

so to make it equal you take the choice out from both sides?

I don't know about child support laws but if it's like what you said that sounds horrible.

Is it really like that where the guy doesn't even know he has a child till its time to pay child support?
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#20 Old 05-14-2015, 05:54 AM
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Are these guys joking? They come across as a bunch of smug weirdos.




Indeed it is. However that's not the case for western society, unlike what many feminists would have you believe. Men and women are equal in terms of political power (my country at least has had multiple female leaders), females hold more social privilege, control of property goes to whoever paid the major share, and finally, women typically hold authority over the children.



Lindy clearly isn't using the agreed upon definition of the word. Laws are heavily influenced by public demand, the public includes women. She talks big, but I don't see her taking any action towards the things she says.




Going by wikipedia definition: "Rape culture is a concept within feminist theory in which rape is pervasive and normalized due to societal attitudes about gender and sexuality."

This is totally wrong. Anyone who believes this simply doesn't pay attention to normal society. If I was accused of rape, accused, not even convicted, do you think my friends would look at me the same way again? Do you think my university would want me around? If any employer caught wind of it, my CV would binned straight away. Men have been assaulted and murdered after being accused of rape. Guilty until proven innocent? Not if you're accused of rape. Prosecutors are extra zealous when it comes to convicting rapists; universities take action when armed with only a shred of potential evidence. I even mentioned before, Airlines won't let men sit next to children for fear that they'll commit some unlawful act against them. Even men who have been proven innocent still receive unfair treatment (see Caleb Warner, banned from his university for year despite being proven innocent).

Western society does everything it can to stop rape, yet feminists still claim the opposite. I cannot express how utterly disgusted I am by this.
If feminists wanted to go fight a real rape culture, they would head to some god forsaken country in Africa or the Middle East; but it's easier for them to stay in relative safety of their country and blab on about fighting a non-issue.



Just because men are more dominant in a field, doesn't mean they're actively keeping women out of it. If there's evidence of men somehow stopping women from entering government, we'll fix it. If you haven't investigated the difference, don't default to the idea that "The patriarchy is keeping us down".






Do they support affirmative action? Because that's a huge deal breaker.

You know the victims have to go through the same sort of ordeals. Yes obviously when you are innocent it's really ****ty to be falsely accused of rape. But just like that it's ****ty to actually be raped.

From what I've read up, rape cases far outnumbers false accusations.
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#21 Old 05-14-2015, 07:08 AM
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what has rape got to do with womans rights all men wear raised by a mother its the parents job to tech there children right and wrong
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#22 Old 05-14-2015, 08:50 AM
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When you talk about signing that legal document, is that something the woman would have to agree to as well? As in, they both decide that he will not have any financial obligations to the child? Or he just gets to sign some form regardless of what she wants, that says 'lol i don't want this responsibility'? Because if it's the latter, I really don't agree... I mean, when you have sex with someone, there is always a chance of pregnancy. And by choosing to have sex, you take responsibi lity for any consequences. That's life.
thats the whole point, why should the woman have all of the control. if she can decide to have it and force him to pay for 18 years, and she can decide to abort it regardless of what he thinks, then why shouldnt he have the same benefit to choose to pay or not?
the act that created it was equally committed. Unless rape, then thats a different thing that requires the rapist to end up in an electric chair or on the end of a chain behind a pickup truck going over rough road, but I digress...
That 18 years of support has ruined an awful lot of lives for men. They should have the right to opt out right at the start. the same right that the female has.
I believe in equal rights at all times for all, not only for some when it benefits only those concerned.
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#23 Old 05-14-2015, 10:24 AM
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I haven't read through all of the other replies, so maybe this is redundant.

I do agree that feminism is a worthy cause for all. I am a feminist, and so is any other rational person.

The problem is the assumptions that are made with the word "feminist." In my experience, if you look at feminist articles, feminist YouTube videos, whatever - TONS of them are simply biased against men. Many of these people are bitter against men, bitter against misogynists, and it certainly shows in their arguments.

I'll take an example... And hopefully I don't start a huge debate with this one... But one common thing that internet "feminists" claim is that having sex with a drunk woman is rape. But they never make the same point about men. And if you bring this up, the most likely response will be "sure, but women don't rape men, men rape women." A good counter would be "more men are raped in the U.S. than women, if you include prison." To be replied with "Yes, but it's still the men who are doing the raping."

And there you go. It just really makes it seem like they don't actually care about rape, they don't actually care about equal rights, they simply feel oppressed by men, and are desperate to see the tables turned. They are trying to score points for one gender, against the other. To show that men are evil, and women are good and innocent.

Again, I know that a true feminist wants equal rights for both sexes. I fall under this category. But I would not label myself as such, because I don't want to be associated with these nuts. I will stick to the label "humanist."
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#24 Old 05-14-2015, 11:03 AM
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lAnd hopefully I don't start a huge debate with this one... But one common thing that internet "feminists" claim is that having sex with a drunk woman is rape. But they never make the same point about men. And if you bring this up, the most likely response will be "sure, but women don't rape men, men rape women." A good counter would be "more men are raped in the U.S. than women, if you include prison." To be replied with "Yes, but it's still the men who are doing the raping."

And there you go. It just really makes it seem like they don't actually care about rape, they don't actually care about equal rights, they simply feel oppressed by men, and are desperate to see the tables turned.
Your example doesn't make any sense. If the men in your scenario are getting raped in prison, where alcohol isn't a factor, then why should feminists be required to mention prison rape when discussing the issue of alcohol and non-consent? Why can't a woman talk openly about women's issues without saying something to placate you?

I find it interesting that the very people on this thread insisting that misogynism doesn't exist are those who have never had cause to experience it.
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#25 Old 05-14-2015, 11:40 AM
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Your example doesn't make any sense. If the men in your scenario are getting raped in prison, where alcohol isn't a factor, then why should feminists be required to mention prison rape when discussing the issue of alcohol and non-consent? Why can't a woman talk openly about women's issues without saying something to placate you?

I find it interesting that the very people on this thread insisting that misogynism doesn't exist are those who have never had cause to experience it.
Because, rape is rape and it's not just an issue for one side or the other. To be clear, I'm not saying that it's always wrong for feminists to talk about these issues, or even to talk about how they affect women more often. What I'm saying is that I've seen plenty of feminists simply dismiss the fact that men are also victims, or simply try to spin the issue to make it clear that one gender needs to be blamed.

But to be more specific to what I mentioned, people having sex while intoxicated is either wrong, or it isn't. It doesn't matter what the gender of the victim is. If one refuses to admit that, and they often do, then they're not a feminist at all.

And I realize that this is all rather anecdotal because I don't have the evidence on hand.
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#26 Old 05-14-2015, 11:48 AM
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rape is a crime and people are locked up for it and rightly so. but you can't paint all men with the same brush, out of a 100 men how many would you say are rapist.
what is a feminists solution have female cops arrest all men and throw them in a work camp it is exactly 50 50 some men are [email protected]#s and some woman are
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#27 Old 05-14-2015, 01:02 PM
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Because, rape is rape and it's not just an issue for one side or the other.
I still don't understand. Are you suggesting that feminists, as a whole, think it's acceptable for men to be raped by men, and that their refusal to make prison rape a point of discussion in videos about alcohol and non-consent is somehow proof of that?

Are you suggesting that there's an epidemic of women raping drunk men, and that feminists' refusal to acknowledge this is evidence that they "don't really care about rape" and are trying to demonize men?

I'm sorry, but I don't follow your logic. It seems to me that you saw a YouTube video about alcohol and non-consent and felt unreasonably threatened and defensive.

Feminists are talking about women being raped while drunk because it's a disturbingly common occurrence. Conservative estimates of sexual assault prevalence suggest that 25 percent of American women have experienced sexual assault and that approximately half of those cases involve alcohol. This is happening to women everywhere with alarming frequency, and we need to talk about it. What, exactly, is your problem with our having this discussion-- that we're pointing out that men are ones raping women when that is, in fact, the case?
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#28 Old 05-17-2015, 12:29 AM
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The problem is the assumptions that are made with the word "feminist." In my experience, if you look at feminist articles, feminist YouTube videos, whatever - TONS of them are simply biased against men. Many of these people are bitter against men, bitter against misogynists, and it certainly shows in their arguments.
lol honestly I see nothing wrong with being bitter against misogynists and misogyny in general. I mean, when you hear stories about discrimination against women and experience it plenty of times yourself, it would be hard not to be. Especially when so many men roll their eyes at the mention of feminism and claim that it's really just a lot of women whinging.

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I'll take an example... And hopefully I don't start a huge debate with this one... But one common thing that internet "feminists" claim is that having sex with a drunk woman is rape. But they never make the same point about men. And if you bring this up, the most likely response will be "sure, but women don't rape men, men rape women." A good counter would be "more men are raped in the U.S. than women, if you include prison." To be replied with "Yes, but it's still the men who are doing the raping."
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Because, rape is rape and it's not just an issue for one side or the other. To be clear, I'm not saying that it's always wrong for feminists to talk about these issues, or even to talk about how they affect women more often. What I'm saying is that I've seen plenty of feminists simply dismiss the fact that men are also victims, or simply try to spin the issue to make it clear that one gender needs to be blamed.

I don't think any feminist (or person at all) with half a brain would deny that men are raped, whether alcohol is involved or not. I would guess that they choose not to discuss it because it is not a feminist issue, it is more of a men's rights issue or whatever. Therefore, it is not exactly top of their priority list of topics to discuss and protest against. Rape is an evil act regardless of the victim's gender - no one could deny that. But there are far more women in this world who are raped/sexually abused/sexually harassed compared to men.

I do think men being raped is an issue, but it's a separate one. I have no problem with people speaking up about it and raising awareness at all... What I do have an issue with is when men use the 'men are raped, too' response whenever feminists talk about rape and sexual violence. And in every instance of this I've seen myself, it's never because they actually care about the issue of men being raped and they want to raise awareness/inform people or whatever, they're only trying to lessen the importance of the original issue - sexual violence against women.
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#29 Old 05-17-2015, 12:43 AM
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rape is a crime and people are locked up for it and rightly so. but you can't paint all men with the same brush, out of a 100 men how many would you say are rapist.
seanE, are you familiar with the 2014 Isla Vista killings by Elliot Rodger? He went on a killing spree basically because he hated women for rejecting him. Anyway, after this event some people started the hashtag #NotAllMen on twitter to say to the world that not all men are like this Elliot guy. This was soon outnumbered by the hashtag #YesAllWomen, which basically sent out the message that while not all men are sexist, ALL women are affected by misogyny and sexism.

I think you might find it interesting if you look up the tweets under the #YesAllWomen hashtag. Or just google 'yesallwomen' and you'll find a lot of articles talking about it.

P.S. Yes, rape is a crime but people are not always locked up for it or even found guilty of it when they are. The justice system is far from perfect.
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#30 Old 05-17-2015, 01:38 AM
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Oh look, my favourite subject on Veggieboards! I am pleased

Apart from the widely thrown around definition of feminism being "equality for men and women" blah blah, feminism is a HUGE HUGE HUGE subject and simplifying it to a five word statement doesn't do it justice.
Feminism deals with gender inequality obviously, but also deals with race, sexuality, gender identity, age, class inequality too. It's all good saying "White women women earn £0.75 of a white man's £1", but also "Black women earn even less than a white man's £1". It also shows how masculine traits are favoured over feminine traits. You can't put feminism to a single definition.

It ties with my vegetarianism as well. I found it kind of silly that I was a feminist and all for equality, equality for humans. In this world animals don't have a voice that we can understand and surely we should be speaking up for those the most?

I do tonnes of research on topics like this so I can answer any questions you have ^.^
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