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#61 Old 05-28-2015, 10:55 PM
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Yay, a perfect addition to this thread I really suck at retaining facts so I'm not always the best at discussing/debating feminist-related things... but I always enjoy hearing from others who are educated on the topic!

Also, I totally agree with the link between feminism and vegatarianism/veganism. One of my feminist friends said that she saw someone tweet the other day 'if you're not a vegan, then you're not really a feminist' and she thought it made absolutely no sense... And although I don't totally agree with that because I don't think it's that black and white, I see what they're trying to say. I found this quote from Gary Francione and thought it made a lot of sense:

9593

I'd be interested to see if anyone disagrees with it
Yep ! I disagree. Because I totally understand that people find the status of human being more important than being a male or a female. I'm a feminist, and when I think about the issues of feminism, I look at humans. If I look at animal that has no obvious sexual dimorphism (lets say a guinea pig because they're extra cute) then it's an "it". It being male or female is just a detail that appears if I look between its legs. And I don't care.

I don't see it being a feminist issue that cows are stolen their calves. I see it as an animal right issue. I don't see it a males-rights issue that ducks are raped by hand to harvest their semen. It's an animal-right issue. We belong to the human species, so it's logical most of us consider human rights more important than the ones of other species. In my country, animal right activists often have a bad reputation because "they don't do much about racism" or " humans are being exploited too"...

So I feel concerned about animal rights, but I've been a feminist for much longer and I don't mix those things. They have common points since both are about the interests of abused population but that's where it stops.
But isn't animal exploitation itself is a result of patriarchy? It seems that way to me. A vegan feminist website I was looking at saw it this way. I can't remember what it's called right now.
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#62 Old 05-29-2015, 01:58 AM
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But isn't animal exploitation itself is a result of patriarchy? It seems that way to me. A vegan feminist website I was looking at saw it this way. I can't remember what it's called right now.
Depends on how you define 'patriarchy'.

To me, patriarchy is many things, but at it's base it's the hierarchy of power, with 'men' at the top. (Remembering that the definition of a 'real man' has been very narrow for hundreds, if not thousands of years. So therefore actually excludes men, even the cis gendered in some degrees).


It works off the idea that 'might is right'.

So, you can say that animal exploitation is a product of such thinking. But I don't usually link the two. The ideologies are similar, but I find it more helpful to discuss their similarities rather than saying that one is a result of the other.

Though, I do think that patriarchal thinking (which hurts everyone along the gender spectrum) helps perpetuate ideologies like carnism, which allow the exploitation of animals to continue. Patriarchy tells men they're not allowed to feel emotions like empathy, that 'real men' are defined by what they eat. It tells them they don't have to really regard others with the same respect as they are afforded by birth.
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#63 Old 05-29-2015, 09:37 AM
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But isn't animal exploitation itself is a result of patriarchy? It seems that way to me. A vegan feminist website I was looking at saw it this way. I can't remember what it's called right now.
Depends on how you define 'patriarchy'.

To me, patriarchy is many things, but at it's base it's the hierarchy of power, with 'men' at the top.
I completely agree, except about this being the "base" of patriarchy. Externally, yes, but it has to start in the mind. I like Jung's idea that patriarchy is a stunted and immature version of masculinity. But, of course, this is a man's perspective. I shouldn't start with men's writings in wanting to know more about feminism. I do feel inspired to learn more, though, mostly from this thread, and in learning that there is a strong vegan feminist movement.

Weather or not one feels animal rights and feminism are linked, it's my understanding that there is a lot of feminist issues going on within animal rights activism -- more men being in positions of power, a rich history of vegan women figures being ignored in favor of men, et cetera.
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#64 Old 05-29-2015, 09:54 AM
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I would be interested to know more about pre-civilization feminist issues, to kind of see how the prevalence of patriarchy might have started. For example, I can't remember which ones specifically, but I remember reading that some native tribes were matriarichal, and some others were egalitarian. Of course, some others were patriarichal. I'd be interested to know what factors -- social, environmental -- played in to this before the agricultural revolution took over the globe.

I wonder if, when the agricultural revolution first took place, men started to fear that they might be less needed, since hunting was less important. Maybe that was part of it, but it was probably more likely the whole agricultural revolution was a result of patriarchal attitudes -- man dominating and controlling fertile nature.

I don't know. I'm just speculating. This thread is showing me that I need to read more books.
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#65 Old 05-29-2015, 10:01 AM
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I'm sorry bu-joe. but i just don't believe 20per of woman were raped once in there life. because i don't know ANY one that would rape any one.

i know lots of people are going to say i lacke life experience, and ant a woman so i don't know any thing, but thats just my judgement pleas don't kill my lol
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#66 Old 05-29-2015, 11:39 AM
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non of men I've ever met were rapists. so there really is very few, all it takes is one in a thousand to give a bad rep to everyone. so can we not all join forces men and women, in an effort to lock up the CRIMINALS. the same ones that rape and murder MEN and WOMEN
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#67 Old 05-29-2015, 11:57 AM
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Dude, rapists won't always tell you that they are ones. Neither will rape victims.


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Bon appétit !
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#68 Old 05-29-2015, 12:04 PM
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Exactly. How would you know if you've met a rapist? Even if you hadn't, how is your personal circle of acquaintances at all representative of the general population? As it happens, I've never met anyone from China. Is it reasonable for me to assume that there can't possibly be over 1 billion of them because I've never met one?
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#69 Old 05-29-2015, 02:21 PM
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I knew someone who, at age fifty, claimed he had never met a homosexual person. As I told him, "No, you just don't KNOW you know people who are gay."

Although I do have to say, seanE, I am now chuckling at the concept that people introduce themselves thus: "Hi, I'm Mark, and I'm a rapist."

BTW, it is extremely rare for someone who has been raped to tell anyone other than a very few selected and trusted individuals who can be counted on to understand. The experience is difficult enough without being treated as an object of curiosity/pity/whatever.
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#70 Old 05-29-2015, 03:05 PM
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Yay, a perfect addition to this thread I really suck at retaining facts so I'm not always the best at discussing/debating feminist-related things... but I always enjoy hearing from others who are educated on the topic!

Also, I totally agree with the link between feminism and vegatarianism/veganism. One of my feminist friends said that she saw someone tweet the other day 'if you're not a vegan, then you're not really a feminist' and she thought it made absolutely no sense... And although I don't totally agree with that because I don't think it's that black and white, I see what they're trying to say. I found this quote from Gary Francione and thought it made a lot of sense:

Attachment 9593

I'd be interested to see if anyone disagrees with it
This statement would be a lot more effective to me if he paired it with specifically male injuries and insults within the food system, like castrating newborn pigs without veterinary care or anesthetic, to get men specifically to go vegan. Men who eat meat eat an awful lot more of it than women who eat meat do.

Francione has no credibility to be goading feminists, and his tone-deaf approach proves it. The Womens Liberation movement was started by women like Gloria Steinem who had worked on civil rights causes and antiwar causes and couldn't make headway within those organizations because they were led by men who wouldn't share authority. Making mimeograph copies of documents, taking minutes at meetings, writing speeches men would give; only so much of this was tolerable to women of good will before they realized they needed to put their skills to work for women. If Francine wants to court feminists, his bait should be that there's plenty of leadership room at the top. If, in fact, he's willing to share authority within his own niche of veganism.
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#71 Old 05-30-2015, 01:31 AM
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OK, so the world is full of male rapists, now what do we do??
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#72 Old 05-30-2015, 04:21 AM
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Men who rape - very frequently deny that they are in any way responsible for a crime. Even men who have been convicted of rape will continue to claim that the 'sex was consensual' (see Ched Evans here in the UK). Very very few rapists in the western world will come out and say 'hi I'm a rapist - please watch out I may try to do something to you too.'

Most women who are raped are raped by someone they know. Someone who has manipulated them into trusting them with the aim of raping them - so that they can later use the defense that as they knew each other it could not possibly be rape.

The sad statistics show that almost half of women will at some point in their lives experience some sort of sexual violence.

Even worse I don't know a single woman who has not been sexually harassed at least once. The worst ... it's so normal. The surreptitious bum feel on the tube. Men commenting legs, or breasts or whatever caught their eye ... if I think about it too hard it's just miserable. And it's not all men. It's just a lot of them.

The world isn't full of rapists. The world is full of an attitude that says it's ok for men to behave like this. That it's their right. That it's their due. That if women protest then they're uptight, prissy, lacking in a sense of humour, don't understand flattery etc. We're in a world that doesn't respect women's and girl's boundaries. That's the thing we need to change. Just locking up the rapists is treating the symptom of much wider malaise.
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#73 Old 05-30-2015, 04:24 AM
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I completely agree, except about this being the "base" of patriarchy. Externally, yes, but it has to start in the mind. I like Jung's idea that patriarchy is a stunted and immature version of masculinity. But, of course, this is a man's perspective. I shouldn't start with men's writings in wanting to know more about feminism. I do feel inspired to learn more, though, mostly from this thread, and in learning that there is a strong vegan feminist movement.
I'm not sure what you mean.

Maybe you misunderstood me too. So I'll attempt to clarify and answer from what I'm assuming you're saying.


When I use the word base, I mean as the 'basic', the stripped back form of patriarchy. It's the foundation of patriarchy, but by no means the extent of it, which is why I say 'base'. Patriarchy extends not only to gender, but sexual orientation, class and race.


I'm confused as to what you mean by "but it has to start in the mind". I think you're saying it's already in our heads? Before we're socialised?

Patriarchy, like any unhelpful and oppressive ideology, feeds off the fear we have of 'different'. That's a fear that probably helped our ancestors survive, but is far from being all that helpful now. But I don't think people are born, naturally subscribing to patriarchy. I think over time, as we pass down myths that are 'true', that's how people buy into it. Myths like "But girls aren't naturally good at maths or science" and "Boys don't like to talk". Then we buy into patriarchy, though I'm hard pressed to find many people who actually think patriarchy exists or continues to influence the way our society works.

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Weather or not one feels animal rights and feminism are linked, it's my understanding that there is a lot of feminist issues going on within animal rights activism -- more men being in positions of power, a rich history of vegan women figures being ignored in favor of men, et cetera.
Yes, but that's a different topic from "A.R and feminism are the same fight".

In any organisation (and this IS changing) men naturally take up the position and space of leaders, it's what we expect them to do, it's what they expect they have to do and some even what they should be allowed to do. Men are seen as 'authority'. If a man says something, it 'naturally' carries more weight than if a woman says it.

It's not an A.R issue, but it is an issue I think the A.R community need to be aware of.

But that'll change with time. I think more men now are aware of their privilege and what that affords them.
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#74 Old 05-30-2015, 04:59 AM
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I would be interested to know more about pre-civilization feminist issues, to kind of see how the prevalence of patriarchy might have started. For example, I can't remember which ones specifically, but I remember reading that some native tribes were matriarichal, and some others were egalitarian. Of course, some others were patriarichal. I'd be interested to know what factors -- social, environmental -- played in to this before the agricultural revolution took over the globe.

I wonder if, when the agricultural revolution first took place, men started to fear that they might be less needed, since hunting was less important. Maybe that was part of it, but it was probably more likely the whole agricultural revolution was a result of patriarchal attitudes -- man dominating and controlling fertile nature.

I don't know. I'm just speculating. This thread is showing me that I need to read more books.
I think you'll have a hard time finding answers to those questions. Pre-civilisation may be a little hard, given you'd be talking about cave men and women. Though I've read that cave women were just as likely to go hunting and go to war as the men, though as they began the phase of their life where they were having kids and raising them, this may have tapered off. (If a man dies, the tribe loses a man. If a pregnant woman dies, they lose the woman and the baby. Back then, survival of the tribe would have been paramount).

Just a point about the 'agricultural revolution'. It's not like we were all living in tribes and then BAM, we're ploughing fields and wearing pants.

The agricultural revolution (in the West) came long after patriarchial norms were established. Also, patriarchy isn't just your standard guy going "Quick, my hunting skillz are no longer needed, oppress the womenz!". The men working in those fields, usually didn't own the field. If they were lucky they were just workers. Look at most civilisations even before that revolution and you'll find that a large number of people who were working the field, were actually slaves. Or close enough to it.

For a very long time, at least in Britain's history, where people who didn't own land weren't allowed to vote.
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#75 Old 05-30-2015, 05:15 AM
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may be you all hang around with the wrong crowd then. i really don't know any man, that would think its ok, to feel up a stranger bum on the tube.
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#76 Old 05-30-2015, 06:04 AM
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may be you all hang around with the wrong crowd then. i really don't know any man, that would think its ok, to feel up a stranger bum on the tube.
I don't know how to explain this any more clearly than I already have: we're not talking about our personal circle of friends. We're talking about society at large. Even within the incredibly small sample that is your personal circle of friends and acquaintances, there are likely to be men who have behaved inappropriately toward women in some way or who feel that such behaviour is appropriate. You really would have no way of knowing unless they told you about it, and as @Shallot pointed out, most men who do this don't believe they've done anything wrong. I have no doubt that you haven't experienced this first-hand, not because it isn't disturbingly common but because you aren't a woman.
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#77 Old 05-30-2015, 06:21 AM
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OK, so the world is full of male rapists, now what do we do??
Hi sean.

If it's a crumb of comfort to you, can I just confirm that I am not a rapist so you can cross me off the list.

Cheers, Leedsveg

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#78 Old 05-30-2015, 06:47 AM
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Hi sean.

If it's a crumb of comfort to you, can I just confirm that I am not a rapist (male, or otherwise) so you can cross me off the list.

Cheers, Leedsveg
That's exactly what a rapist would say.
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#79 Old 05-30-2015, 07:14 AM
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may be you all hang around with the wrong crowd then. i really don't know any man, that would think its ok, to feel up a stranger bum on the tube.
I don't know a single guy who would admit to it either. Even the guys who have felt my bum. These guys know that it's not considered 'ok' to do this. However they do so anyway - for the thrill, for the power and just because they know no one's going to say anything. And mostly they are right - the woman is too embarrassed and fears no one will stand up for her. Fears that saying something to make the situation more risky not less risky. Because what if the others around you side with the guy.

The problem isn't all guys. The problem is some guys. Trying to excuse it or explain it away or telling me that I'm taking the wrong tube and hanging round with the wrong people (making me somehow responsible for their actions) - is entirely unhelpful. Every man has a choice about how he behaves. So does every woman. We all have to live with the actions we take - but we don't carry the responsibility for the actions of others. I do not make men collectively responsible for the actions of individuals but I do expect men collectively to stand up against some pretty obvious injustices.

Let me tell a true story to illustrate my point. At work a guy said something to a woman - and she said 'dude that's sort of racist'. Now she had every right to say this because he had made a disparaging and bigotted comment about her ethnicity. He however denied it was anything of the sort, that it was a joke, that she should have a sense of humour. I'm the same ethnicity as this guy and I turned round and said 'She's actually right. That was racist - you should apologise.' I could easily have kept silent. This guy was the head of a department (I am way way lower down the office food chain). Only I didn't. You see I'm not responsible for all of 'my people's' sins - but I'm certainly responsible enough to stand up and say I won't participate in them any longer. That's all I expect from men in general - the balls to say they're not going to keep playing the same old tired game.
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#80 Old 05-30-2015, 09:07 AM
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Im sorry to hear that shallot, and he was obesely compleatly out of order.
that was not my point, i by no way mean it´s you fault, the average man, would be disgusted if you told him what that guy did, and would stand up for you,
being afraid to tell any one when a man dos something out of line. is a result of the feminists mind set that all men are in this club, i really think you over estimate how many are in that club. the only way to find out is to stand up and let your voce be hared when some one is being disrespectful.
but from now on in this discussion, can we all replace the word men, with man, and men whow treat woman disrespectfully, with [email protected]…oles
if you say men do this, or men do that, it immediately puts all men on the defense. if you want support its not the best way to go about it

you would get a lot more support if there was a ''human beings against unfairness'' organisation
the fact that it´s a woman organisation suggests that they don't care about men being disrespected

i would allso like to say, men get just as hard a time by other men, as well its not like they just pic on woman. as a man if you talk to a bunch of men and they all watch football and you don't you will be ostracised.
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#81 Old 05-30-2015, 09:51 AM
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Im sorry to hear that shallot, and he was obesely compleatly out of order.
that was not my point, i by no way mean it´s you fault, the average man, would be disgusted if you told him what that guy did, and would stand up for you,
being afraid to tell any one when a man dos something out of line. is a result of the feminists mind set that all men are in this club, i really think you over estimate how many are in that club. the only way to find out is to stand up and let your voce be hared when some one is being disrespectful.
but from now on in this discussion, can we all replace the word men, with man, and men whow treat woman disrespectfully, with [email protected]…oles
if you say men do this, or men do that, it immediately puts all men on the defense. if you want support its not the best way to go about it

you would get a lot more support if there was a ''human beings against unfairness'' organisation
the fact that it´s a woman organisation suggests that they don't care about men being disrespected

i would allso like to say, men get just as hard a time by other men, as well its not like they just pic on woman. as a man if you talk to a bunch of men and they all watch football and you don't you will be ostracised.
Feminists have never implied that all men behave inappropriately. The reality is that a lot of men do. If you, as an individual, feel threatened by the existence of a female-led civil rights movement which openly advocates for the wellbeing of women, then perhaps you should look inwardly to determine why. Men who truly believe in equality don't feel threatened by feminists; They are feminists.
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#82 Old 05-30-2015, 11:10 AM
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this is where we come to a problem then, what do you classify as behaving inappropriately?
seeing that i don't know any one that dos may be i do and don't know it ?
i´m not threatened by a female led civil right movement, i just would not be as likely to support one that excludes men,
we are all equal right?
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#83 Old 05-30-2015, 11:46 AM
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"Rape culture" seems to be a loaded term here. Between the years 2000 and 2005 I worked on a Troop Health Support contract for the US Defense Department. One of the issues we researched was sexual assault by men on women in the Armed Forces. I took testimony from women who'd served in Afghanistan and Iraq. Some testified that within their units, more women had than hadn't been raped. Often, women would be jumped in the night on their way to or from using the latrines. A few women actually died there from dehydration, apparently from not drinking enough water so as to reduce their exposure to being jumped.

One of our findings was that wherever sexual harassment was tolerated by those in charge, sexual assault was more likely to happen. That is what rape culture means to me: an environment where rape is more likely because of permissive attitudes toward related behaviors: sexist jokes, sexual innuendo, unwanted physical contact, quid-pro-quo sexual activity, intimidation, and humiliation, among others. If rape is the fire, I would say harassment is the smoke, which is one reason harassment is rightly considered a serious problem in some workplaces and on some college campuses.

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#84 Old 05-30-2015, 11:49 AM
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this is where we come to a problem then, what do you classify as behaving inappropriately?
seeing that i don't know any one that dos may be i do and don't know it ?
Making explicit comments on a woman’s body

Using profanities that are directed at a woman because of her gender

Making references to a woman’s possible homosexuality

Following a woman, throwing things at her, or pinching or poking her, tugging at her clothes or attempting to undress her

Making sexual innuendos

Staring, leering, whistling, cat-calling

Persistently asking for a woman's name and number

Asking explicitly sexual questions

Engaging in sexual activity with a woman who is clearly unable to consent (slurring her words, unable to stand or walk, vomiting, passed out, etc)

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i´m not threatened by a female led civil right movement, i just would not be as likely to support one that excludes men,
we are all equal right?
Feminism doesn't exclude men. Many men are themselves feminists. We're highlighting a need for the advocacy of woman's rights because such a need exists. Are you similarly opposed to anti-racist groups on the basis that they "exclude" white people? Are you not capable of advocating for the rights of a group to which you, personally, don't belong?
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#85 Old 05-30-2015, 12:11 PM
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rape culture in the armed forces yer thats a good one.

how many times have you experienced any of the above, if this happens on a regular basis, then i will count my self lucky to live in such a nice country, as i have never came across it,
there might be one in a 100 but there village idiots and every one knows it
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#86 Old 05-30-2015, 12:34 PM
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rape culture in the armed forces yer thats a good one.

how many times have you experienced any of the above, if this happens on a regular basis, then i will count my self lucky to live in such a nice country, as i have never came across it,
there might be one in a 100 but there village idiots and every one knows it
Sean, a quarter of all US military women have been sexually assaulted while serving. Look it up. Here is a link to a published report with statistics on sexual violence in the US military. The report is from NIOSH, the National Institute for Occupational Safety and Health. http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/781380_3
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#87 Old 05-30-2015, 12:50 PM
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how many times have you experienced any of the above, if this happens on a regular basis, then i will count my self lucky to live in such a nice country, as i have never came across it,
there might be one in a 100 but there village idiots and every one knows it
I lived most of my life in various parts of the US, and nearly every woman I know has experienced something on this list or worse, and I guarantee that many of the women you know have had similar experiences. My husband has lived his entire life in the UK and wasn't aware of how common street harassment is until he surveyed his female friends and found that the majority of them have experienced it, too. I don't know where you live, but I think it's safe to say that the situation in your country can't be much better.

Of course you haven't seen it. Again, you're not a woman. Men tend not to harass women when they're with male friends or boyfriends. They approach us when we're alone. Most of my experiences have been while walking alone through my city or town in broad daylight. You should read my husband's blog post about the responses he received when he asked women about street harassment: http://twohundredpercent.net/?p=26542

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#88 Old 05-30-2015, 01:01 PM
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er no sorry Joan, i mean the fact that there in a army, people dress in armour with a license to kill.
thats terrible, how ever it really is not that bad where i am most woman are happy to walk alone, without fear of being folowed or any one looking at them
NYC is just mad when you ´´rack pack and stake´´ people all kinds of phycological problems arise.
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#89 Old 05-30-2015, 01:04 PM
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Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: UK
Posts: 437
Well Sean ... I've experienced every single one of those things.

Not all at the same time. Some of them more than once. And no not the same guy every time.

So here's the kicker. I'm not in some tiny little minority. I haven't put myself at risk particularly (and a lot these happen in an environment where you should be safe). The kicker is that I'm not in a tiny minority.
LedBoots and no whey jose like this.
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#90 Old 05-30-2015, 01:23 PM
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Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 199
well then i rest my case,
however, in my country the things are very rare, unless your in a very rough area.
I've all was seen it happen a lot on tv, but i thought it was just drama.
im very sorry to hear it goes on.
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