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#31 Old 05-17-2015, 02:18 AM
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Originally Posted by sonnymoore View Post
Oh look, my favourite subject on Veggieboards! I am pleased

Apart from the widely thrown around definition of feminism being "equality for men and women" blah blah, feminism is a HUGE HUGE HUGE subject and simplifying it to a five word statement doesn't do it justice.
Feminism deals with gender inequality obviously, but also deals with race, sexuality, gender identity, age, class inequality too. It's all good saying "White women women earn £0.75 of a white man's £1", but also "Black women earn even less than a white man's £1". It also shows how masculine traits are favoured over feminine traits. You can't put feminism to a single definition.

It ties with my vegetarianism as well. I found it kind of silly that I was a feminist and all for equality, equality for humans. In this world animals don't have a voice that we can understand and surely we should be speaking up for those the most?

I do tonnes of research on topics like this so I can answer any questions you have ^.^

Yay, a perfect addition to this thread I really suck at retaining facts so I'm not always the best at discussing/debating feminist-related things... but I always enjoy hearing from others who are educated on the topic!

Also, I totally agree with the link between feminism and vegatarianism/veganism. One of my feminist friends said that she saw someone tweet the other day 'if you're not a vegan, then you're not really a feminist' and she thought it made absolutely no sense... And although I don't totally agree with that because I don't think it's that black and white, I see what they're trying to say. I found this quote from Gary Francione and thought it made a lot of sense:

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I'd be interested to see if anyone disagrees with it
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#32 Old 05-17-2015, 03:38 AM
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feminine traits are preferred in child care, if a man wanted to work in a play school, most people would think he's some kind of pervert thats not equal.
and that eliot roger guy killed those woman because he was mad, not because some one duped him. the justice system is not fair to lots of people not just woman
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#33 Old 05-17-2015, 04:02 AM
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Ooooh, my first time being sent to the compost heap!

Maybe it's because the only thing western society does to stop rape is...
You didn't read my post. I listed many things that discourage rape, but you've just flat out ignored them.

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feminine traits are preferred in child care, if a man wanted to work in a play school, most people would think he's some kind of pervert thats not equal.
and that eliot roger guy killed those woman because he was mad, not because some one duped him. the justice system is not fair to lots of people not just woman
Those women? He killed twice as many men as he did women.
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#34 Old 05-17-2015, 04:45 AM
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You didn't read my post. I listed many things that discourage rape, but you've just flat out ignored them.
Whatever policies you're thinking of citing obviously aren't working very well if 1 in 4 women have been the victims of sexual assault. How do you look at those statistics and then insist that the sexual assault of women is a non-issue?

I don't know if your female friends and family members trust you enough to share their own experiences with you, but it's worth asking if they've ever been the victims of harassment or abuse because of their gender-- if they've ever been followed by a strange man on the street, propositioned for sex while shopping for groceries or walking the dog, had lewd phrases shouted at them from a passing car, received unsolicited pictures of a man's genitalia, been forcibly undressed as a "joke," been groped on a crowded train, been called rude names for refusing to speak to a strange man at a cafe... I think you'll be shocked at just how commonplace these occurrences are, especially for women who spend time walking alone.
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#35 Old 05-17-2015, 04:47 AM
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You didn't read my post. I listed many things that discourage rape, but you've just flat out ignored them.
Wrong, wrong and wrong.
I did read your post.
Technically you listed nothing.
I don't feel like I ignored anything.

Are you referring to that big fat paragraph about how if you were accused then your friends would ditch you, your university would kick you out, blah blah blah? Because I did comment on the university thing. And I didn't exactly negate any of your points, but mentioned information I had gathered from my personal experiences and what I have heard in the media and articles/personal stories I have read online... Which the majority of surprisingly offer a different view to your own.

Unless you're referring to another section of your post that I happened to miss even though I made myself reread it twice? If so, please do enlighten me.
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#36 Old 05-17-2015, 05:02 PM
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Whatever policies you're thinking of citing obviously aren't working very well if 1 in 4 women have been the victims of sexual assault. How do you look at those statistics and then insist that the sexual assault of women is a non-issue?
Where did I say it was a non-issue? I suggested that society on the whole discourages it, i.e. its prevalence is not due to society being okay with it. Don't try to twist my words.

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Originally Posted by no whey jose View Post
I don't know if your female friends and family members trust you enough to share their own experiences with you, but it's worth asking if they've ever been the victims of harassment or abuse because of their gender-- if they've ever been followed by a strange man on the street, propositioned for sex while shopping for groceries or walking the dog, had lewd phrases shouted at them from a passing car, received unsolicited pictures of a man's genitalia, been forcibly undressed as a "joke," been groped on a crowded train, been called rude names for refusing to speak to a strange man at a cafe... I think you'll be shocked at just how commonplace these occurrences are, especially for women who spend time walking alone.
I think you're confusing misogyny with people just being *******s. Similar things have been done to me (unsolicited physical contact, shouted at from passing cars, forcibly undressed), but I don't put it down to society hating men. People need to chill out.



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Wrong, wrong and wrong.
I did read your post.
Technically you listed nothing.
I don't feel like I ignored anything.

Are you referring to that big fat paragraph about how if you were accused then your friends would ditch you, your university would kick you out, blah blah blah? Because I did comment on the university thing. And I didn't exactly negate any of your points, but mentioned information I had gathered from my personal experiences and what I have heard in the media and articles/personal stories I have read online... Which the majority of surprisingly offer a different view to your own.

Unless you're referring to another section of your post that I happened to miss even though I made myself reread it twice? If so, please do enlighten me.
So you don't think vigilantes murdering suspected rapists is a deterrent?
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#37 Old 05-17-2015, 07:48 PM
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"Ten rape prevention tips:

1. Don’t put drugs in women’s drinks.

2. When you see a woman walking by herself, leave her alone.

3. If you pull over to help a woman whose car has broken down, remember not to rape her.

4. If you are in an elevator and a woman gets in, don’t rape her.

5. When you encounter a woman who is asleep, the safest course of action is to not rape her.

6. Never creep into a woman’s home through an unlocked door or window, or spring out at her from between parked cars, or rape her.

7. Remember, people go to the laundry room to do their laundry. Do not attempt to molest someone who is alone in a laundry room.

8. Use the Buddy System! If it is inconvenient for you to stop yourself from raping women, ask a trusted friend to accompany you at all times.

9. Carry a rape whistle. If you find that you are about to rape someone, blow the whistle until someone comes to stop you.

10. Don’t forget: Honesty is the best policy. When asking a woman out on a date, don’t pretend that you are interested in her as a person; tell her straight up that you expect to be raping her later. If you don’t communicate your intentions, the woman may take it as a sign that you do not plan to rape her."
http://canyourelate.org/2011/05/24/r...evention-tips/
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#38 Old 05-17-2015, 08:35 PM
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"Ten rape prevention tips:

1. Don’t put drugs in women’s drinks.

2. When you see a woman walking by herself, leave her alone.

3. If you pull over to help a woman whose car has broken down, remember not to rape her.

4. If you are in an elevator and a woman gets in, don’t rape her.

5. When you encounter a woman who is asleep, the safest course of action is to not rape her.

6. Never creep into a woman’s home through an unlocked door or window, or spring out at her from between parked cars, or rape her.

7. Remember, people go to the laundry room to do their laundry. Do not attempt to molest someone who is alone in a laundry room.

8. Use the Buddy System! If it is inconvenient for you to stop yourself from raping women, ask a trusted friend to accompany you at all times.

9. Carry a rape whistle. If you find that you are about to rape someone, blow the whistle until someone comes to stop you.

10. Don’t forget: Honesty is the best policy. When asking a woman out on a date, don’t pretend that you are interested in her as a person; tell her straight up that you expect to be raping her later. If you don’t communicate your intentions, the woman may take it as a sign that you do not plan to rape her."
http://canyourelate.org/2011/05/24/r...evention-tips/
Do you have anything to add to the discussion or are you here to just imply that it's stupid to take precautions against negative situations?
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#39 Old 05-17-2015, 08:37 PM
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Do you have anything to add to the discussion or are you here to just imply that it's stupid to take precautions against negative situations?
I added rape prevention tips since that was a topic being discussed in recent posts.
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#40 Old 05-17-2015, 08:46 PM
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I added rape prevention tips since that was a topic being discussed in recent posts.
Do give some tips that help prevent being raped by a woman.
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#41 Old 05-18-2015, 12:41 AM
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Do give some tips that help prevent being raped by a woman.
This is precisely how you're implying that the rape of women is a non-issue. Whenever anyone brings up a valid point about the frequency of and manner in which women are raped or sexuality harassed, your response is the same: "But bad things happen to men!" This is despite the fact that women are raped and sexually harassed with alarming regularity. We're highlighting an extremely common occurrence, and instead of recognizing the problem you're attempting to minimize it.

It's a very similar tactic to those people who are trying to downplay racial profiling in American police work by saying that "white people get shot by police, too!" or that each individual black man was responsible for his own death because he was behaving in a threatening manner, or that these individual cops misbehaved independently-- anything to deflect attention away from the reality that this is a widespread, systemic issue that's resulting in a disproportionate number of unarmed black men being killed by police. No one wants to admit that race plays a part in social interaction-- least of all white people, who have the privilege of pretending racism doesn't exist because they don't have to face it every time they leave the house.

The men who harass women on the street do so because we are women. However desperately you might want to believe that men and women are sexually assaulted at the same rate, they aren't. No amount of insistence on your part can change that-- and your attempts to diminish the severity of this issue only serve as a reminder of how well this system works.
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#42 Old 05-18-2015, 01:53 AM
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Where did I say it was a non-issue? I suggested that society on the whole discourages it, i.e. its prevalence is not due to society being okay with it. Don't try to twist my words.
If you backtrack a teensy little bit, you'll see you said it in post #11:

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Western society does everything it can to stop rape, yet feminists still claim the opposite. I cannot express how utterly disgusted I am by this.
If feminists wanted to go fight a real rape culture, they would head to some god forsaken country in Africa or the Middle East; but it's easier for them to stay in relative safety of their country and blab on about fighting a non-issue.


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Originally Posted by RedPill View Post
I think you're confusing misogyny with people just being *******s. Similar things have been done to me (unsolicited physical contact, shouted at from passing cars, forcibly undressed), but I don't put it down to society hating men. People need to chill out

That sucks that you've experienced those things, but it's not like there's a significantly high majority of the male gender that deals with these sorts of incidents regularly. When you look at the greater picture, it's so obvious that women get the shorter end of the stick. Well, it should be obvious, anyway...


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So you don't think vigilantes murdering suspected rapists is a deterrent?
Honestly, no. I hear more stories about rape and sexual assault than vigilantes murdering suspected rapists. Or maybe I'm just in a place where it doesn't get reported on as often? I just googled it and I wouldn't exactly say it exploded with so many results. If anything, I have heard more of vigilantes going after paedophiles in particular than anything else. Hey, I'm sure I could be wrong and it might occur far more frequently than I am aware of... But I don't see people refraining from committing a rape because they're afraid of some rumoured vigilante group coming after them.

Also, I was trying to discuss appropriate ways to deal with rape culture... I don't feel like relying on these vigilantes as a deterrent is a great solution.

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Do you have anything to add to the discussion or are you here to just imply that it's stupid to take precautions against negative situations?
I felt this was quite rude..? What LedBoots quoted is actually one of my favourite things because of how it points out how focussed we are on telling someone how not to become a victim instead of tackling the source of the issue. It fits in perfectly here.
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#43 Old 05-18-2015, 02:46 AM
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I hadn't realized that @RedPill had actually used the word "non-issue." That was certainly the gist of his posts, but even I was surprised to see that bit quoted back. Good eye, @custardpie .

Speaking of vigilantes, I fail to see how a statistically insignificant number of rapist-killing citizens acting against the law could possibly represent society's intolerance of the rape of women. By definition, vigilantes spring into action when the public feels that justice is not being adequately pursued by law enforcement. If, as you claim, society is doing everything possible to discourage rape and to punish rapists, then there would be no need for vigilantes in the first place.

The reality is that rape culture extends far beyond the act of rape. You've failed to address the inequality inherent in our differing views of men and women, particularly when it comes to sex. A sexually active woman is labelled easy or dirty while men are expected to be sexually active and are, to some extent, excused for behaving inappropriately. It's a common situation for a woman who receives unwanted attention from a man to be asked what she may have done to "lead him on," as though any polite interaction between a man and a woman is an invitation for sex. I've experienced this personally too many times to count, including a situation where the manager of a shop mistook my cheerful demeanour during an interview as flirtation and was furious when I refused to sleep with him after he hired me, because he'd naturally assumed that we were making an unspoken deal since I was an unmarried woman who smiled at him. I wish I could say that this was a freak occurrence and that I just happened to run into a particularly slimy individual, but from listening to the stories of other women and looking at the startling statistics, I can see that that's sadly not the case.

I think I've already mentioned that a friend of mine has been publicly sharing stories of sexual abuse all month. It began with only her own experiences, but she's received an outpouring of similar stories from both women and men, many of whom had never talked about these experiences before. It's obvious from the responses she's received that sexual abuse is an everyday occurrence and that it disproportionately affects women. She did not include verbal street harassment in her calculations, as she'd already covered that issue in a previous series. Her tally as of May 15th:

47 women have been sent unsolicited pictures of penises

18 women were sexually harassed at school

29 women were sexually harassed at work

6 women were molested by a family member

5 women were groped or touched inappropriately by strangers

8 women were groped or touched inappropriately by friends

15 women were raped

1 man was sexually assaulted at work

4 men were groped or touched inappropriately by friends

1 man was raped
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#44 Old 05-18-2015, 02:58 AM
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This is precisely how you're implying that the rape of women is a non-issue. Whenever anyone brings up a valid point about the frequency of and manner in which women are raped or sexuality harassed, your response is the same: "But bad things happen to men!" This is despite the fact that women are raped and sexually harassed with alarming regularity. We're highlighting an extremely common occurrence, and instead of recognizing the problem you're attempting to minimize it.

It's a very similar tactic to those people who are trying to downplay racial profiling in American police work by saying that "white people get shot by police, too!" or that each individual black man was responsible for his own death because he was behaving in a threatening manner, or that these individual cops misbehaved independently-- anything to deflect attention away from the reality that this is a widespread, systemic issue that's resulting in a disproportionate number of unarmed black men being killed by police. No one wants to admit that race plays a part in social interaction-- least of all white people, who have the privilege of pretending racism doesn't exist because they don't have to face it every time they leave the house.
Ledboots' post suggested that only women get raped. I asked for tips on how to protect men since the issue affects both genders.

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Originally Posted by no whey jose View Post
The men who harass women on the street do so because we are women. However desperately you might want to believe that men and women are sexually assaulted at the same rate, they aren't. No amount of insistence on your part can change that-- and your attempts to diminish the severity of this issue only serve as a reminder of how well this system works.
And the women who harass my ass in clubs do so because I'm a man. What's your point?
I didn't say they're harassed at the same rate. Why are you trying to twist everything I say?

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Originally Posted by custardpie View Post
If you backtrack a teensy little bit, you'll see you said it in post #11:
Rape culture is a non-issue in the West; rape is an issue. Big difference.


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Originally Posted by custardpie View Post
That sucks that you've experienced those things, but it's not like there's a significantly high majority of the male gender that deals with these sorts of incidents regularly. When you look at the greater picture, it's so obvious that women get the shorter end of the stick. Well, it should be obvious, anyway...
A lot of men aren't open about harassment, so a large amount goes unreported. Even if they are still the minority when it comes to being harassment victims, policies put in place to stop harassment shouldn't discriminate by gender.

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Originally Posted by custardpie View Post
Honestly, no. I hear more stories about rape and sexual assault than vigilantes murdering suspected rapists. Or maybe I'm just in a place where it doesn't get reported on as often? I just googled it and I wouldn't exactly say it exploded with so many results. If anything, I have heard more of vigilantes going after paedophiles in particular than anything else. Hey, I'm sure I could be wrong and it might occur far more frequently than I am aware of... But I don't see people refraining from committing a rape because they're afraid of some rumoured vigilante group coming after them.
The efficacy isn't what's important, what's important is that it shows that people are heavily against rape. You don't often hear people arguing for the rights of a suspected rapist.

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Also, I was trying to discuss appropriate ways to deal with rape culture... I don't feel like relying on these vigilantes as a deterrent is a great solution.
It's not a particularly good solution. I didn't suggest it was. My point was that people are willing to fight rape and that it is in no way accepted or encouraged.


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Originally Posted by custardpie View Post
I felt this was quite rude..? What LedBoots quoted is actually one of my favourite things because of how it points out how focussed we are on telling someone how not to become a victim instead of tackling the source of the issue. It fits in perfectly here.
We do tell people to not commit rape, it's called the law. Guess what? It doesn't work 100% of the time. Do you think telling people again will stop rape for good?
You can do so much more to stop rape by taking some responsibility and realising that the world isn't completely safe and that you should do certain things to protect yourself.


EDIT:

Quote:
Originally Posted by no whey jose View Post
I hadn't realized that @RedPill had actually used the word "non-issue." That was certainly the gist of his posts, but even I was surprised to see that bit quoted back. Good eye, @custardpie .
You'll see I corrected custardpie.

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Originally Posted by no whey jose View Post
Speaking of vigilantes, I fail to see how a statistically insignificant number of rapist-killing citizens acting against the law could possibly represent society's intolerance of the rape of women. By definition, vigilantes spring into action when the public feels that justice is not being adequately pursued by law enforcement. If, as you claim, society is doing everything possible to discourage rape and to punish rapists, then there would be no need for vigilantes in the first place.
In case you haven't noticed, society isn't doing everything possible to stop ANY crime. It has methods in place to deal with them, but there can always be more done to prevent crime. However things get a little too fascist for the average Joe to find appealing.


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Originally Posted by no whey jose View Post
The reality is that rape culture extends far beyond the act of rape. You've failed to address the inequality inherent in our differing views of men and women, particularly when it comes to sex. A sexually active woman is labelled easy or dirty while men are expected to be sexually active and are, to some extent, excused for behaving inappropriately. It's a common situation for a woman who receives unwanted attention from a man to be asked what she may have done to "lead him on," as though any polite interaction between a man and a woman is an invitation for sex. I've experienced this personally too many times to count, including a situation where the manager of a shop mistook my cheerful demeanour during an interview as flirtation and was furious when I refused to sleep with him after he hired me, because he'd naturally assumed that we were making an unspoken deal since I was an unmarried woman who smiled at him. I wish I could say that this was a freak occurrence and that I just happened to run into a particularly slimy individual, but from listening to the stories of other women and looking at the startling statistics, I can see that that's sadly not the case.
What of the flipside? A man who does not sleep with many women is ridiculed, while a woman is heralded as pure in certain circles. There is a biological explanation for men being polygamists while being more hypergamist in nature. However I feel like you'd just dismiss it.

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I think I've already mentioned that a friend of mine has been publicly sharing stories of sexual abuse all month. It began with only her own experiences, but she's received an outpouring of similar stories from both women and men, many of whom had never talked about these experiences before. It's obvious from the responses she's received that sexual abuse is an everyday occurrence and that it disproportionately affects women. She did not include verbal street harassment in her calculations, as she'd already covered that issue in a previous series. Her tally as of May 15th:

47 women have been sent unsolicited pictures of penises

18 women were sexually harassed at school

29 women were sexually harassed at work

6 women were molested by a family member

5 women were groped or touched inappropriately by strangers

8 women were groped or touched inappropriately by friends

15 women were raped

1 man was sexually assaulted at work

4 men were groped or touched inappropriately by friends

1 man was raped
Of course, your anecdotal evidence with no testing standards is empirical evidence!
I don't doubt that women are more often sexually harassed than men, but your findings are hardly conclusive, and I fail to see why we should only focus on helping the most affected group. Do you suggest we only protect Indian convenience store owners?
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#45 Old 05-18-2015, 04:09 AM
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Ledboots' post suggested that only women get raped. I asked for tips on how to protect men since the issue affects both genders.

And the women who harass my ass in clubs do so because I'm a man. What's your point?
I didn't say they're harassed at the same rate. Why are you trying to twist everything I say?
The fact that a disproportionate number of women are sexually abused is what makes this a feminist issue, just as the fact that a disproportionate number of black men are harassed by police makes that an issue of racial inequality. Something does not have to occur exclusively to one group in order to be considered a pertinent issue for that group. If one demographic is being disproportionately targeted or underrepresented, it becomes an issue worth discussing. You repeatedly insist that rape and sexual abuse is not a women's issue when a disturbingly high percentage of women have been affected. This tells me that you are completely disinterested in discovering the reason behind this inequality, and therefore disinterested in solving it, as you would prefer to pretend it's insignificant.

Quote:
A lot of men aren't open about harassment, so a large amount goes unreported.
This is true of both genders, and the solution is to speak openly as a society about rape and sexual abuse and to change the way we view victims of such abuse. Our current culture of victim-blaming makes coming forward difficult, and this is precisely what feminists hope to change by engaging in open dialogue. Furthermore, the particular shame male victims feel stems from the very societal inequality feminism stands against: the idea that women are vulnerable while men aren't allowed to be.

Quote:
You don't often hear people arguing for the rights of a suspected rapist.
You apparently haven't been reading the comments on news stories about rape. There are plenty of people defending rapists' rights, primarily by insinuating that the sex was consensual because the victim was drunk, or flirty, or dressed provocatively, or known to be sexually active, or because she'd slept with the rapist before, or that she's simply a liar trying to sully the name of an innocent man. No one is driving around with a bumper sticker that says "I <3 Rapists." The public acceptance of rape is much subtler than that-- and, as I've said before, extends far beyond the act of rape into the very ways we view women and men. This is what feminists mean by the term "rape culture."


Quote:
We do tell people to not commit rape, it's called the law. Guess what? It doesn't work 100% of the time. Do you think telling people again will stop rape for good?
I'm not confident that we can ever stop rape for good, but we can stop making excuses for men who behave inappropriately ("He's just giving you a compliment!") and we can stop blaming and shaming the victims of sexual assault. I can't see how not making an effort to do these things benefits anyone but the rapists.

Quote:
You can do so much more to stop rape by taking some responsibility and realising that the world isn't completely safe and that you should do certain things to protect yourself.
Perhaps you think it's appropriate to expect women not to dress a certain way, or walk alone, or have a few drinks, or smile at men, or get a job or enroll in school, or go on dates, or reject a man's advances, or leave home without a chaperone in order to avoid being raped. I don't find this an acceptable solution.
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#46 Old 05-19-2015, 02:22 AM
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The fact that a disproportionate number of women are sexually abused is what makes this a feminist issue, just as the fact that a disproportionate number of black men are harassed by police makes that an issue of racial inequality. Something does not have to occur exclusively to one group in order to be considered a pertinent issue for that group. If one demographic is being disproportionately targeted or underrepresented, it becomes an issue worth discussing. You repeatedly insist that rape and sexual abuse is not a women's issue when a disturbingly high percentage of women have been affected. This tells me that you are completely disinterested in discovering the reason behind this inequality, and therefore disinterested in solving it, as you would prefer to pretend it's insignificant.
Makes it a feminist issue? But I thought you said feminism was for everyone? I'm for stopping abuse in all forms, not just for women.

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This is true of both genders, and the solution is to speak openly as a society about rape and sexual abuse and to change the way we view victims of such abuse. Our current culture of victim-blaming makes coming forward difficult, and this is precisely what feminists hope to change by engaging in open dialogue. Furthermore, the particular shame male victims feel stems from the very societal inequality feminism stands against: the idea that women are vulnerable while men aren't allowed to be.
Victim blaming is not inherently bad. Placing all of the blame on the victim is wrong, but if one unnecessarily put themselves at great risk, they share a larger portion of the blame.

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Originally Posted by no whey jose View Post
You apparently haven't been reading the comments on news stories about rape. There are plenty of people defending rapists' rights, primarily by insinuating that the sex was consensual because the victim was drunk, or flirty, or dressed provocatively, or known to be sexually active, or because she'd slept with the rapist before, or that she's simply a liar trying to sully the name of an innocent man. No one is driving around with a bumper sticker that says "I <3 Rapists." The public acceptance of rape is much subtler than that-- and, as I've said before, extends far beyond the act of rape into the very ways we view women and men. This is what feminists mean by the term "rape culture."
It's not an acceptance of rape, people absolutely abhor what they believe to be rape, but it seems society doesn't have the same definition of rape as you do.



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Originally Posted by no whey jose View Post
I'm not confident that we can ever stop rape for good, but we can stop making excuses for men who behave inappropriately ("He's just giving you a compliment!") and we can stop blaming and shaming the victims of sexual assault. I can't see how not making an effort to do these things benefits anyone but the rapists.
Say we didn't provide people with information on how to avoid rape. Do you think that would help in anyway?
My house was robbed once. You know what I did after reporting it? I looked up how I could help prevent it from happening again. It could have saved me some trouble if I had thought about it earlier, but at least now I'll be less susceptible to it.

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Originally Posted by no whey jose View Post
Perhaps you think it's appropriate to expect women not to dress a certain way, or walk alone, or have a few drinks, or smile at men, or get a job or enroll in school, or go on dates, or reject a man's advances, or leave home without a chaperone in order to avoid being raped. I don't find this an acceptable solution.
[/QUOTE]

I expect people to have common sense. I lock my door when I leave the house because it's the responsible and safe thing to do. A thief steals from a vulnerable home, a rapist attacks a vulnerable victim.
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#47 Old 05-19-2015, 05:02 AM
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Makes it a feminist issue? But I thought you said feminism was for everyone? I'm for stopping abuse in all forms, not just for women.
Feminism aims to establish equality for women and therefore deals with issues primarily affecting women, but these issues affect us all. A fair and equal society benefits everyone, particularly when the very oppressive laws and cultural mores that feminists rally against can also be used to restrict the freedoms of others: men, yes, but also transgender and gender-variant individuals. It strikes me as a remarkably selfish stance to refuse support to a civil rights movement because you personally don't belong to the minority in question and feel that the issues of your own group should take precedence in every discussion.


Quote:
Victim blaming is not inherently bad. Placing all of the blame on the victim is wrong, but if one unnecessarily put themselves at great risk, they share a larger portion of the blame.
Could you clarify what you mean by "unnecessarily put[ting] themselves at great risk," in the context of rape?


Quote:
It's not an acceptance of rape, people absolutely abhor what they believe to be rape, but it seems society doesn't have the same definition of rape as you do.
I define rape as a type of sexual assault usually involving sexual intercourse, perpetrated against someone without that person's consent. How do you define it? How do you think society defines it?


Quote:
Say we didn't provide people with information on how to avoid rape. Do you think that would help in anyway?
I don't think we're providing enough of the right kind of information. Rather than educating our boys and young men about consent and respect, we're placing the responsibility of rape prevention on the victims.

Quote:
I expect people to have common sense. I lock my door when I leave the house because it's the responsible and safe thing to do. A thief steals from a vulnerable home, a rapist attacks a vulnerable victim.
To give you a sense of what you're advocating for, here's a list of rape prevention tips aimed at women. This is how we are supposed to render ourselves less vulnerable:

1. Get married. Your husband will protect you... unless you're an unmarried or divorced mother, in which case you're advised not to place your kids at risk by dating. (Source: http://www.washingtonpost.com/postev...d-get-married/)

2. Don't drink alcohol in public. ( http://www.slate.com/articles/double...onnection.html)

3. Wear more clothes in an effort to make your body less tempting to men. ( http://www.salon.com/2013/05/28/is_r...or_argues_yes/)

4. Don't use public transportation after dark ( http://m.ndtv.com/india-news/women-s...-comment-50840), but don't walk either. ( http://m.smh.com.au/nsw/women-who-wa...30-1mxcph.html) Basically, don't have a job or any social obligations which keep you out of the house past sundown.

5. Wear a chastity belt. ( http://thinkprogress.org/health/2013...exual-assault/)

If these tips don't work and you end up getting raped, keep quiet about it or you'll encourage your peers to want to get raped, too. ( http://thinkprogress.org/health/2014...-college-rape/)
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#48 Old 05-19-2015, 11:47 AM
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MALE RAPE IS A FEMINIST ISSUE, A TOTALLY DIFFERENT ISSUE IN ITSELF

If you bring up males being raped by females SIMPLY to discourange a conversation about females being raped by males, you have changed the topic. They are totally. different. subjects.


Also, feminism deals with male rape and works with male rape victims. On a post about Shia Laboef's rape, men commented "lucky man!" and "it isn't rape if you wanted it" yet US, THE FEMINISTS, stand up for him. This is one incident.

Lewis' Law occurs a lot in feminism forums too...
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#49 Old 05-19-2015, 12:36 PM
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''red pill'' altho i disagree with the whole feminist thing. to say that if some one put them self in a venerable position, then its part there fault if they get raped is disgusting.
i don´t mean this i a patronising way. but women are vulnerable as in they ant as strong as men, dos that mean you should rape a woman on an ally way if she's not with a man that would kick your ass. thats going back to barbaric times. you've badly let down all men
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#50 Old 05-20-2015, 06:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by no whey jose View Post
Feminism aims to establish equality for women and therefore deals with issues primarily affecting women, but these issues affect us all. A fair and equal society benefits everyone, particularly when the very oppressive laws and cultural mores that feminists rally against can also be used to restrict the freedoms of others: men, yes, but also transgender and gender-variant individuals. It strikes me as a remarkably selfish stance to refuse support to a civil rights movement because you personally don't belong to the minority in question and feel that the issues of your own group should take precedence in every discussion.
They aren't addressing the issue of women having lesser prison sentences than men for the same crimes.


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Originally Posted by no whey jose View Post
Could you clarify what you mean by "unnecessarily put[ting] themselves at great risk," in the context of rape?
Well getting really drunk in bars without some sort of support in the form of a group of friends or a sober friend is unwise for both men and women. I feel like that's an unnecessary risk to take.

It's like walking around blindfolded in a bad part of town. If someone was planning on mugging someone, they'd hit the guy with the blindfold.



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Originally Posted by no whey jose View Post
I define rape as a type of sexual assault usually involving sexual intercourse, perpetrated against someone without that person's consent. How do you define it? How do you think society defines it?
Well we agree on that at least. However it seems in situations where there is some doubt if an actual rape, you'd be more likely to lean towards guilt.

For example, a girl gets slightly tipsy and decides to have sex. Her decision making is impaired, but she's still fully capable of saying no. She has sex, but feels bad about it the next morning and decides to report it as rape. In this situation I'd say she is still responsible and the other party shouldn't be charged. After all, one is still considered at fault if they drive a car while impaired.
If she was very drunk (unaware of her surroundings for example) then I'd be more likely to say that the other party is at fault for taking advantage.


Quote:
Originally Posted by no whey jose View Post
I don't think we're providing enough of the right kind of information. Rather than educating our boys and young men about consent and respect, we're placing the responsibility of rape prevention on the victims.
We do educate them on this though. Maybe our countries have different policies. However, some people simply don't respond to this form of deterrent, so it is essential that we educate people on how to avoid becoming a victim.

Quote:
Originally Posted by no whey jose View Post
To give you a sense of what you're advocating for, here's a list of rape prevention tips aimed at women. This is how we are supposed to render ourselves less vulnerable:

1. Get married. Your husband will protect you... unless you're an unmarried or divorced mother, in which case you're advised not to place your kids at risk by dating. (Source: http://www.washingtonpost.com/postev...d-get-married/)
Would this help prevent rape? It might. Is it practical? Not really. I agree that tip is pretty shoddy.


Quote:
Originally Posted by no whey jose View Post
2. Don't drink alcohol in public. ( http://www.slate.com/articles/double...onnection.html)
If you can't keep yourself under control in public, you are putting yourself at risk. This tip is pretty valid.
We don't let children run about unsupervised, just as we don't let our drunk mates put themselves at danger.

Quote:
Originally Posted by no whey jose View Post
3. Wear more clothes in an effort to make your body less tempting to men. ( http://www.salon.com/2013/05/28/is_r...or_argues_yes/)
This is a fuzzy one. This is conjecture here, but if a rapist is amongst potential victims, they're gonna go for the one that appeals to them the most.
Are you to blame if a rapist comes after you and you were wearing revealing clothing? No, of course not. However you are the most likely one to be targeted.

I've heard some feminists say things like "Just because I dress provocatively, doesn't mean I'm asking for it", however provocatively means "serving or tending to provoke, excite, or stimulate". They are provoking reactions from people, unfortunately the reactions are not always positive.

Quote:
Originally Posted by no whey jose View Post
4. Don't use public transportation after dark ( http://m.ndtv.com/india-news/women-s...-comment-50840), but don't walk either. ( http://m.smh.com.au/nsw/women-who-wa...30-1mxcph.html) Basically, don't have a job or any social obligations which keep you out of the house past sundown.
This applies to everyone really. Walking alone late at night is risky as can be. The articles direct it at women because society sees rape as a major issue to tackle. This lends further to my argument of western society not being a rape culture.

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Originally Posted by no whey jose View Post
Well it would help protect you, but it's an excessive measure and you wouldn't be blamed for not having one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by no whey jose View Post
If these tips don't work and you end up getting raped, keep quiet about it or you'll encourage your peers to want to get raped, too. ( http://thinkprogress.org/health/2014...-college-rape/)
I didn't read that link, but I get the feeling you're incorrectly paraphrasing there. I mean you've misinterpreted several things I've said here already.


Quote:
Originally Posted by sonnymoore View Post
MALE RAPE IS A FEMINIST ISSUE, A TOTALLY DIFFERENT ISSUE IN ITSELF

If you bring up males being raped by females SIMPLY to discourange a conversation about females being raped by males, you have changed the topic. They are totally. different. subjects.

Also, feminism deals with male rape and works with male rape victims. On a post about Shia Laboef's rape, men commented "lucky man!" and "it isn't rape if you wanted it" yet US, THE FEMINISTS, stand up for him. This is one incident.

Lewis' Law occurs a lot in feminism forums too...
See, Shia put himself at unnecessary risk. I don't really care for anything that comes out of Hollywood, since half the stuff those people do is for attention.

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Originally Posted by seanE View Post
''red pill'' altho i disagree with the whole feminist thing. to say that if some one put them self in a venerable position, then its part there fault if they get raped is disgusting.
i don´t mean this i a patronising way. but women are vulnerable as in they ant as strong as men, dos that mean you should rape a woman on an ally way if she's not with a man that would kick your ass. thats going back to barbaric times. you've badly let down all men
You've misinterpreted what I've been saying. When I take about being vulnerable, I mean as in the victim has gone out of their way to enter dangerous situations. For example, brandishing a toy gun in public will certainly attract attention. If the person is shot, do you solely blame the shooter (either by police or an armed civilian in the States), or is the victim partially responsible for doing something so irresponsible?
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#51 Old 05-20-2015, 07:28 PM
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They aren't addressing the issue of women having lesser prison sentences than men for the same crimes.




Well getting really drunk in bars without some sort of support in the form of a group of friends or a sober friend is unwise for both men and women. I feel like that's an unnecessary risk to take.

It's like walking around blindfolded in a bad part of town. If someone was planning on mugging someone, they'd hit the guy with the blindfold.





Well we agree on that at least. However it seems in situations where there is some doubt if an actual rape, you'd be more likely to lean towards guilt.

For example, a girl gets slightly tipsy and decides to have sex. Her decision making is impaired, but she's still fully capable of saying no. She has sex, but feels bad about it the next morning and decides to report it as rape. In this situation I'd say she is still responsible and the other party shouldn't be charged. After all, one is still considered at fault if they drive a car while impaired.
If she was very drunk (unaware of her surroundings for example) then I'd be more likely to say that the other party is at fault for taking advantage.




We do educate them on this though. Maybe our countries have different policies. However, some people simply don't respond to this form of deterrent, so it is essential that we educate people on how to avoid becoming a victim.



Would this help prevent rape? It might. Is it practical? Not really. I agree that tip is pretty shoddy.




If you can't keep yourself under control in public, you are putting yourself at risk. This tip is pretty valid.
We don't let children run about unsupervised, just as we don't let our drunk mates put themselves at danger.



This is a fuzzy one. This is conjecture here, but if a rapist is amongst potential victims, they're gonna go for the one that appeals to them the most.
Are you to blame if a rapist comes after you and you were wearing revealing clothing? No, of course not. However you are the most likely one to be targeted.

I've heard some feminists say things like "Just because I dress provocatively, doesn't mean I'm asking for it", however provocatively means "serving or tending to provoke, excite, or stimulate". They are provoking reactions from people, unfortunately the reactions are not always positive.



This applies to everyone really. Walking alone late at night is risky as can be. The articles direct it at women because society sees rape as a major issue to tackle. This lends further to my argument of western society not being a rape culture.



Well it would help protect you, but it's an excessive measure and you wouldn't be blamed for not having one.



I didn't read that link, but I get the feeling you're incorrectly paraphrasing there. I mean you've misinterpreted several things I've said here already.




See, Shia put himself at unnecessary risk. I don't really care for anything that comes out of Hollywood, since half the stuff those people do is for attention.



You've misinterpreted what I've been saying. When I take about being vulnerable, I mean as in the victim has gone out of their way to enter dangerous situations. For example, brandishing a toy gun in public will certainly attract attention. If the person is shot, do you solely blame the shooter (either by police or an armed civilian in the States), or is the victim partially responsible for doing something so irresponsible?
So.....a woman walking home from work after dark is comparable to brandishing a toy gun...
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#52 Old 05-20-2015, 10:29 PM
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So.....a woman walking home from work after dark is comparable to brandishing a toy gun...
Yeah, I'm not sure I feel up to tackling this one so early in the morning.
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#53 Old 05-23-2015, 01:54 AM
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All right, I've had some rest and I think I'm ready to respond.

Expecting a woman to take responsibility for preventing her own rape isn't analogous to expecting her to lock her door. It's like asking her not to own a home in the first place, or not to buy nice furniture to avoid tempting robbers, or never to leave her home so that she can always guard against intruders. Basically, you're expecting women to drastically alter their lives, because the activities that put us at risk for sexual assault are the most basic and mundane aspects of our daily routine: the commute to and from work or school, grocery shopping, visiting friends, attending a party, meeting a friend for a drink-- things men do without fear, without being admonished for "making themselves vulnerable to attack." The activity that puts us at the most risk is simply being female.

For an example of this, look at your use of the word "provocative." Why is a woman's leg or shoulder "provocative" while a man's is a utilitarian body part? Why do you assume that a woman wearing a pair of shorts in warm weather is trying to provoke a response from you or from any other man, rather than wearing them for the same reason men wear shorts: they're cool, they're comfortable, they're stylish? This seems to me to be a perfect example of the selfish way in which our bodies are viewed, as objects of desire and attraction for men.
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#54 Old 05-27-2015, 01:52 PM
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I really don't know why wire discussing this, do you hope to convert some rapists to nice guys by showing them there flaws?
Should all men have there '' '' cut off to prevent any further incidents?

Red pill. i don't understand why you say women are part to blame, because it just confirms to some feminist, that men have no self control when they see a woman in a skirt i find it very degrading

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#55 Old 05-27-2015, 02:07 PM
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I really don't know why wire discussing this, do you hope to convert some rapists to nice guys by showing them there flaws?
We're discussing it because we're on a discussion forum and the topic came up.

Quote:
Should all men have there '' '' cut off to prevent any further incidents?
No.
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#56 Old 05-28-2015, 12:27 PM
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Angry

The following are quotes I'm commenting on. I just want to make that clear. I'm a new member and I can't seem to really get the hang of this quote feature:

No Whey Jose said: Going by wikipedia definition: "Rape culture is a concept within feminist theory in which rape is pervasive and normalized due to societal attitudes about gender and sexuality."

Redpill said: This is totally wrong. Anyone who believes this simply doesn't pay attention to normal society. If I was accused of rape, accused, not even convicted, do you think my friends would look at me the same way again? Do you think my university would want me around? If any employer caught wind of it, my CV would binned straight away. Men have been assaulted and murdered after being accused of rape. Guilty until proven innocent? Not if you're accused of rape. Prosecutors are extra zealous when it comes to convicting rapists; universities take action when armed with only a shred of potential evidence. I even mentioned before, Airlines won't let men sit next to children for fear that they'll commit some unlawful act against them. Even men who have been proven innocent still receive unfair treatment (see Caleb Warner, banned from his university for year despite being proven innocent).

I say: I believe No Whey was referring to societal attitudes that lead to rape in the first place -- not the way a man accused of rape is treated by the public afterwards.

Also, what does a university trying to protect its reputation to the detriment of Caleb Warner have to do with anything? What was that university doing to help prevent rapes from occurring in the first place?
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#57 Old 05-28-2015, 12:44 PM
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thats exactly what i mean, when i say why are we discussing this, i mean wire coming from it, like men are rapist. NO criminals are rapist

what do you think we can do about it, it,s very rare and when there caught there locked up what more can you do
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#58 Old 05-28-2015, 02:23 PM
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Yay, a perfect addition to this thread I really suck at retaining facts so I'm not always the best at discussing/debating feminist-related things... but I always enjoy hearing from others who are educated on the topic!

Also, I totally agree with the link between feminism and vegatarianism/veganism. One of my feminist friends said that she saw someone tweet the other day 'if you're not a vegan, then you're not really a feminist' and she thought it made absolutely no sense... And although I don't totally agree with that because I don't think it's that black and white, I see what they're trying to say. I found this quote from Gary Francione and thought it made a lot of sense:

Attachment 9593

I'd be interested to see if anyone disagrees with it
Yep ! I disagree. Because I totally understand that people find the status of human being more important than being a male or a female. I'm a feminist, and when I think about the issues of feminism, I look at humans. If I look at animal that has no obvious sexual dimorphism (lets say a guinea pig because they're extra cute) then it's an "it". It being male or female is just a detail that appears if I look between its legs. And I don't care.

I don't see it being a feminist issue that cows are stolen their calves. I see it as an animal right issue. I don't see it a males-rights issue that ducks are raped by hand to harvest their semen. It's an animal-right issue. We belong to the human species, so it's logical most of us consider human rights more important than the ones of other species. In my country, animal right activists often have a bad reputation because "they don't do much about racism" or " humans are being exploited too"...

So I feel concerned about animal rights, but I've been a feminist for much longer and I don't mix those things. They have common points since both are about the interests of abused population but that's where it stops.
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#59 Old 05-28-2015, 02:25 PM
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it,s very rare.
Oh, really? Almost 1 in 5 women are raped sometime in their lives. Nearly 2% of men are raped. Nearly 44 percent of women and 23 percent of men have experienced some other form of sexual violence.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/t...ve-been-raped/

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#60 Old 05-28-2015, 05:46 PM
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I have considered myself a feminist for a long time now even before I went vegan. I find it really sad we live in such a patriarchal society, I read in a women studies class that no country has complete equality for women. It is quite sad.
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