Buying from a breeder while millions die in shelters - VeggieBoards
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#1 Old 03-09-2015, 12:09 AM
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Buying from a breeder while millions die in shelters

An argument I've heard for this is,we don't adopt children but make our own although there are millions in orphanages. What are your thoughts on this?

I feel,
1) Number of children is very less compared to animals in shelters.
2) children are not euthanized there is enough support from people to give them shelter and food, unlike animals which would starve and die.
3) Children are your own dna while dogs, whether they come from a breeder or a shelter is still adopted in a sense.
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#2 Old 03-09-2015, 12:55 AM
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4) Children in orphanages won't mate with other children and quickly multiply the number of children.

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#3 Old 03-09-2015, 10:32 AM
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The points of differentiation mentioned above are all good ones. However, I for one wish that humans would procreate less readily, for the good of the planet and all of the animals (including humans) living on it, and would put more resources (including emotional resources) toward taking care of the human children already living. After all, is it the child who is important, or the fact that the child shares one's DNA?

As for nonhuman animals, I have zero tolerance for breeding domestic animals while there is even one in need of an adequate home.
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#4 Old 03-09-2015, 12:11 PM
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Buying from a breeder while millions die in shelters

Children in orphanages will mate eventually, at least most of them.

Often even small breeding farms where the dogs are well-treated, they are still kept in kennels and not as pets. Also pups are removed from their mothers too young.

I'll say that for me personally I wouldn't feel morally okay with creating a new child for a huge host of reasons, including that so many already exist who need a mother. That decision is extremely personal for each individual though, and as I've never much wanted children I can't compare my decision to people I know who dream every day about having a biological child. Our animal biology has selected for us to want to breed over anything else except to survive, so one can imagine it is a difficult idea to suppress.
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#5 Old 03-09-2015, 12:46 PM
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Children in orphanages will mate eventually, at least most of them.

Often even small breeding farms where the dogs are well-treated, they are still kept in kennels and not as pets. Also pups are removed from their mothers too young.

I'll say that for me personally I wouldn't feel morally okay with creating a new child for a huge host of reasons, including that so many already exist who need a mother. That decision is extremely personal for each individual though, and as I've never much wanted children I can't compare my decision to people I know who dream every day about having a biological child. Our animal biology has selected for us to want to breed over anything else except to survive, so one can imagine it is a difficult idea to suppress.
People don't usually have 5 to 12 children at once. The rate comparison at which humans multiply and dogs and cats multiply is huge.

I think it's great that people adopt, but personally, I don't think I could truly love a child that's not my own. That's just me, though. If that makes me a bad person, so be it.
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#6 Old 03-09-2015, 01:05 PM
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Well like I said I've never really wanted children so my decision is purely logical. I can't compare with everyone else.


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#7 Old 03-10-2015, 09:43 AM
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My sister bought 2 dogs for a total of nearly 2000$. I was horrified. Adopting animals should be the only choice. As for children well I also think we need to adopt more. We are overpopulated as it is so.... I get upset when I hear that a person would never consider adopting a child. Most of my friends and family don't agree with my view on adoption, child or animal. Sigh.

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#8 Old 03-10-2015, 09:47 AM
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As for nonhuman animals, I have zero tolerance for breeding domestic animals while there is even one in need of an adequate home.

Yes! Agreed! Now only if everyone thought the same, even the omnivores, the world would be a better place. If people could love dogs and cats enough to think purchasing them is wrong, it would be a step closer to a compassionate lifestyle for all! Hehehe
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#9 Old 03-10-2015, 10:02 AM
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I think it's great that people adopt, but personally, I don't think I could truly love a child that's not my own. That's just me, though. If that makes me a bad person, so be it.
I had the great good fortune to have had a stepfather who could not have loved me more had I been of his genetic material. That experience taught me that it is the love and the care that counts, not ties of blood.
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#10 Old 03-10-2015, 11:10 AM
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It is relatively easy to adopt an animal. And yes, I 110% agree that animals that already exist deserve loving homes. I don't agree that we should ever breed any more, even if (hypothetically) ever single one had a loving home. We need to phase out 'pets' and let animals be animals without being born into a life where they are owned by humans. We have no business owning animals, though we do have an obligation to care for those we have so selfishly brought into this world. Doesn't mean we should be bringing any more in.

As for children, they make it near impossible to adopt a child from this country and (no offense) children from other countries often come with issues that aren't disclosed to the prospective parents. That scares people off. I think more people would adopt if there weren't so many asinine restrictions on it in this country and stricter disclosure laws internationally.
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#11 Old 03-10-2015, 11:16 AM
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Once I was able to understand issues with animal breeding and overpopulation I couldn't justify buying from a breeder. I always found it strange that people don't consider child adoption more often when children are usually considered to be more precious then dogs or cats.

Since jessandreia brought this up, can anybody try to articulate why you feel you couldn't love an adopted child as much as a bio one? This feeling sounds bizarre to me and I'm really curious about it. I don't really get, on a personal level, why people want children and I don't have any overt feelings of valuing blood relatives more than people I don't share as many genes with. I majored in biology in uni so I understand some of the mechanisms of why it happens but I feel like I'm dealing with a vastly different species when I talk to people (normal people :P ) who have these prospective.
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#12 Old 03-10-2015, 11:34 AM
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Once I was able to understand issues with animal breeding and overpopulation I couldn't justify buying from a breeder. I always found it strange that people don't consider child adoption more often when children are usually considered to be more precious then dogs or cats.

Since jessandreia brought this up, can anybody try to articulate why you feel you couldn't love an adopted child as much as a bio one? This feeling sounds bizarre to me and I'm really curious about it. I don't really get, on a personal level, why people want children and I don't have any overt feelings of valuing blood relatives more than people I don't share as many genes with. I majored in biology in uni so I understand some of the mechanisms of why it happens but I feel like I'm dealing with a vastly different species when I talk to people (normal people :P ) who have these prospective.
I can honestly say that although I have large family of bio kids, I absolutely KNOW I could love a non-bio child just the same. I cannot speak for those who have a strong drive/desire based on blood ties.

I think much of what kiwibird08 is spot on, atleast in the US when it comes to adoption. I looked into adoption very seriously a number of years ago, but the restrictions and/or requirements were pretty staggering in many cases. There is also the option of adopting from foster care and this can be a more affordable alternative, but many times I think this is a better option for those who do not already have small children in the home. I would expect that an adopted child coming through the foster system, especially if they were older and/or had special needs would need a lot of focused attention, and it would be unfair to adopt if you did not have the time and resources to meet their needs as best you could. I already had little ones at home when I was looking into adopting, so foster adoption was not the best choice for us.

I felt the same way when we adopted our Connor as a puppy. I felt that I needed to be committed to meeting his needs as fully as I could and to that end, he actually has his own line on the monthly budget. We don't skimp on caring for our loved ones, human or non-human.
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#13 Old 03-10-2015, 11:43 AM
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I think there are breeders and then there are breeders. We all know about the puppy mills. Also, people who put their poodle with a neighbor's poodle don't really know what they're doing, and their litters show it. Puppies from high-end conformation dog breeders are not competing for homes with shelter and rescue dogs. The circles don't overlap, except in that show breeders are usually quite active in rescue work. When a show breeder produces a litter, it's usually using a stud from some other show kennel, in hopes that at least one puppy from that litter will be a show prospect: good health, with ancestor health records that go back generations, sound temperament, and a gorgeous example of what the breed is supposed to look like. This is where the dogs you see at the Westminster and Cruft shows come from. Before the litter is even conceived, there is a waiting list of homes for the puppies that will result. The non-show puppies (all but the best one or two from the litter) will be lovely, but not "top of the top," and will go to family homes for thousands of dollars each. And those pet-quality dogs will be sold on spay/neuter contracts; if those pets were to produce puppies, those puppies could not be registered. These are the only breeders out there I would characterize as responsible, and many show breeders fail to measure up.

I understand the reasons people are opposed to all animal breeding for human gain. Let them devolve back into wolves, and help keep the deer populations in check (which sucks for the deer, of course). But I don't agree that show breeders rob shelter dogs of homes.

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#14 Old 03-10-2015, 11:43 AM
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I don't agree that we should ever breed any more, even if (hypothetically) ever single one had a loving home.
That's an eventuality that is so far into the future (if it ever happens, which I doubt) that I don't see any point in trying to fight that fight now, especially since it makes it all the more difficult to get people to listen to the "adopt, don't shop" message that is so critical at present and for the foreseeable future.
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#15 Old 03-10-2015, 11:49 AM
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I think there are breeders and then there are breeders. We all know about the puppy mills. Also, people who put their poodle with a neighbor's poodle don't really know what they're doing, and their litters show it. Puppies from high-end conformation dog breeders are not competing for homes with shelter and rescue dogs. The circles don't overlap, except in that show breeders are usually quite active in rescue work. When a show breeder produces a litter, it's usually using a stud from some other show kennel, in hopes that at least one puppy from that litter will be a show prospect: good health, with ancestor health records that go back generations, sound temperament, and a gorgeous example of what the breed is supposed to look like. This is where the dogs you see at the Westminster and Cruft shows come from. Before the litter is even conceived, there is a waiting list of homes for the puppies that will result. The non-show puppies (all but the best one or two from the litter) will be lovely, but not "top of the top," and will go to family homes for thousands of dollars each. And those pet-quality dogs will be sold on spay/neuter contracts; if those pets were to produce puppies, those puppies could not be registered. These are the only breeders out there I would characterize as responsible, and many show breeders fail to measure up.

I understand the reasons people are opposed to all animal breeding for human gain. Let them devolve back into wolves, and help keep the deer populations in check (which sucks for the deer, of course). But I don't buy the argument that show breeders rob shelter dogs of homes.
I disagree. I have a friend who used to show (and breed, on a very small scale), Tibetan terriers. According to her, they were rare, and never found in rescue. Eventually, although owned and bred exclusively by show breeders, they found their way into shelters. She says the same thing is happening to other rare breeds, that it eventually happens to all breeds. She is now very anti breeding until the homeless problem is resolved.
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#16 Old 03-10-2015, 11:55 AM
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That's an eventuality that is so far into the future (if it ever happens, which I doubt) that I don't see any point in trying to fight that fight now, especially since it makes it all the more difficult to get people to listen to the "adopt, don't shop" message that is so critical at present and for the foreseeable future.
Sadly, you're right. Whats really terrible is those who talk the talk but don't walk the walk. I know a lady who has (and still does) talk all the time about shelter dogs and how terrible kill shelters are ext... Yet, when 2 of her dogs passed of old age, did she even LOOK at any shelter dogs to adopt? NOPE! Went out and got puppies. Not "oops" puppies either. These were puppies from breeders. I couldn't even believe what I was hearing when she told us!

I mean, I don't have the space or financial resources to have any more animals than the ones I do so it's not like I'm exactly running my own little rescue operation over here (though I'd love to adopt more birds in the future). I can only afford the one bird and of course my newt doesn't cost much but I have no room for any additional reptile/amphibian enclosures. Still, both my babies were rescues and I wouldn't ever consider supporting a breeder in the future. SO many wonderful creatures of ALL varieties in need of loving, caring homes. I just don't understand why not adopt or rescue? You don't HAVE to take in a problem animal if you don't want. There are lots of healthy, happy animals who are up for adoption, though those animals in need of a little extra TLC still need loving homes too.
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#17 Old 03-10-2015, 12:13 PM
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I disagree. I have a friend who used to show (and breed, on a very small scale), Tibetan terriers. According to her, they were rare, and never found in rescue. Eventually, although owned and bred exclusively by show breeders, they found their way into shelters. She says the same thing is happening to other rare breeds, that it eventually happens to all breeds. She is now very anti breeding until the homeless problem is resolved.
I'm sure your friend was telling you accurately what the situation was for that breed in her region. On a larger scale, nearly every breed finds itself in shelters. But when you buy from a show breeder, one thing you agree to in writing is that you'll return your dog to that breeder if you're ever unable to care for it. Tibetan Terrier breeders who work in rescue also comb the shelters for Tibetan Terriers that need fostering and re-homing. They might even have a contact at the shelter who will call them if one comes in. This rescue/foster activity is usually coordinated through local kennel clubs, which are the organizations that hold breed-specific dog shows at the local and regional levels. Every breed club is intensely interested in keeping its own breed, and mixes of that breed, out of the shelters.
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#18 Old 03-10-2015, 12:22 PM
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Once I was able to understand issues with animal breeding and overpopulation I couldn't justify buying from a breeder. I always found it strange that people don't consider child adoption more often when children are usually considered to be more precious then dogs or cats.

Since jessandreia brought this up, can anybody try to articulate why you feel you couldn't love an adopted child as much as a bio one? This feeling sounds bizarre to me and I'm really curious about it. I don't really get, on a personal level, why people want children and I don't have any overt feelings of valuing blood relatives more than people I don't share as many genes with. I majored in biology in uni so I understand some of the mechanisms of why it happens but I feel like I'm dealing with a vastly different species when I talk to people (normal people :P ) who have these prospective.
It's hard to articulate. Knowing myself and how hard it is for me to really love someone, I just feel that I wouldn't. Maybe in a few years I'll feel differently (although it still wouldn't be my first option). I also think it would depend on the age of the child. I think I'd be more likely to love an adopted child if he/she came to me before 6 months old than if he/she only came to me at 3 years old.
I don't necessarily love blood relatives more. In fact, I'm not close at all to most of my family. But I think that when it comes to my own child, I would. But like I said, maybe that will change (I'm only 22 after all).

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#19 Old 03-10-2015, 12:42 PM
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I'm sure your friend was telling you accurately what the situation was for that breed in her region. On a larger scale, nearly every breed finds itself in shelters. But when you buy from a show breeder, one thing you agree to in writing is that you'll return your dog to that breeder if you're ever unable to care for it. Tibetan Terrier breeders who work in rescue also comb the shelters for Tibetan Terriers that need fostering and re-homing. They might even have a contact at the shelter who will call them if one comes in. This rescue/foster activity is usually coordinated through local kennel clubs, which are the organizations that hold breed-specific dog shows at the local and regional levels. Every breed club is intensely interested in keeping its own breed, and mixes of that breed, out of the shelters.
I'm not arguing about that. What I am saying is that every breed, at some point, reaches a critical mass where they end up in shelters.

As for the contracts that require an animal to be returned to the breeder - they are basically worthless. How many breeders actively follow the animals they sell and make sure they don't end up elsewhere? How would they even know what really happens to the animals, whether they are even spayed/neutered, unless they have it done themselves before they sell the animal? Yes, some people will abide by the terms of these "contracts", but others are either too embarrassed to return the animal to the breeder, or they want to recoup their "investment" and instead sell the animal on.

Shelters and rescues face the same issues, which is why reputable shelters and rescues won't even release an animal until s/he is spayed/neutered. Some rescues, having had so many bad experiences that they are now maintaining the microchip "ownership" of animals for their lifetimes, to ensure that if the animal ends up in a shelter and is scanned, they will know about it.

Unfortunately, this is an expense that many rescues and shelters can't afford, and even then it's not foolproof. The very excellent rescue from which I adopted one of my roosters and two of my cats is currently trying to get one of their rescued cats back. The cat (despite the contract signed by the adopters) was surrendered to a municipal shelter which has a policy of killing all cats which they deem "feral", IOW, any cat which exhibits behavior fearful of humans. If you know cats, you know that even the tamest cat can act like a wild creature if she finds herself in an environment in which she is frightened. (As an aside, the municipal shelter which serves the two municipalities closest to my present residence has a cat kill rate of over 90% precisely because of such a policy. Their dog kill rate is over 50%.)
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#20 Old 03-10-2015, 12:54 PM
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I also think it would depend on the age of the child. I think I'd be more likely to love an adopted child if he/she came to me before 6 months old than if he/she only came to me at 3 years old.
I don't necessarily love blood relatives more. In fact, I'm not close at all to most of my family. But I think that when it comes to my own child, I would.
I have not adopted a child obviously, but I did adopt a 'mature' pet whom I really do love like a child. I truly feel sadness that I missed out on his juvenile years, especially given the rather significant personality changes his species goes through when they mature. However, though I missed out on his cute, cuddly "baby" phase, I am still so happy and feel so fortunate every day that he is part of my life as he is now.

My husband and I would consider adoption in the future if we 'qualified' (not ready for children, biological or adopted yet), and I think I would have a similar view adopting an older child (which I also wouldn't discount). Sadness to have missed out on that special time in their life when they were an infant, but also fortunate to have the rest of my life to know and love them. Just how I would view it (I think)
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#21 Old 03-10-2015, 01:02 PM
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Every breed club is intensely interested in keeping its own breed, and mixes of that breed, out of the shelters.
Then they appear to be largely unsuccessful, judging by the numbers of purebreds and mixes of particular breeds to be found in shelters all across the country.

Most of the breed specific rescues I've encountered have been people who are not breeders, but who have a love for a particular species. For example, my Pyr was adopted from a rescue founded and run by a woman who had a Pyr and started rescuing them. She pulls Pyrs from shelters in a three state area and finds homes for them. The last time I encountered her at the vet's, she said she really wanted to retire (she's been doing this work for a couple of decades), but couldn't find anyone to take over.

I also don't find particularly compelling the argument that people who buy the "pet quality" animals from breeders would not otherwise adopt a rescue dog. If that assertion is true, then I think that they are more interested in a status symbol than in the living being, and I wonder what happens to that status symbol once the novelty wears off.
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#22 Old 03-10-2015, 01:11 PM
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I have not adopted a child obviously, but I did adopt a 'mature' pet whom I really do love like a child. I truly feel sadness that I missed out on his juvenile years, especially given the rather significant personality changes his species goes through when they mature. However, though I missed out on his cute, cuddly "baby" phase, I am still so happy and feel so fortunate every day that he is part of my life as he is now.

My husband and I would consider adoption in the future if we 'qualified' (not ready for children, biological or adopted yet), and I think I would have a similar view adopting an older child (which I also wouldn't discount). Sadness to have missed out on that special time in their life when they were an infant, but also fortunate to have the rest of my life to know and love them. Just how I would view it (I think)


In my case, while I appreciate the cuteness of baby animals (including baby humans), I find them much more interesting as individuals as they mature and their personalities emerge and mature over time. I don't start to find human children particularly interesting until they reach the age of four or five, at least, and I have a particular soft spot for senior nonhumans.

Kiwibird - is Kiwi the name of your little guy? I can see from your profile photo that he's an Amazon, but is he a double yellow headed Amazon?
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#23 Old 03-10-2015, 01:22 PM
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I'm not arguing about that. What I am saying is that every breed, at some point, reaches a critical mass where they end up in shelters.

As for the contracts that require an animal to be returned to the breeder - they are basically worthless. How many breeders actively follow the animals they sell and make sure they don't end up elsewhere? How would they even know what really happens to the animals, whether they are even spayed/neutered, unless they have it done themselves before they sell the animal? Yes, some people will abide by the terms of these "contracts", but others are either too embarrassed to return the animal to the breeder, or they want to recoup their "investment" and instead sell the animal on.

Shelters and rescues face the same issues, which is why reputable shelters and rescues won't even release an animal until s/he is spayed/neutered. Some rescues, having had so many bad experiences that they are now maintaining the microchip "ownership" of animals for their lifetimes, to ensure that if the animal ends up in a shelter and is scanned, they will know about it.

Unfortunately, this is an expense that many rescues and shelters can't afford, and even then it's not foolproof. The very excellent rescue from which I adopted one of my roosters and two of my cats is currently trying to get one of their rescued cats back. The cat (despite the contract signed by the adopters) was surrendered to a municipal shelter which has a policy of killing all cats which they deem "feral", IOW, any cat which exhibits behavior fearful of humans. If you know cats, you know that even the tamest cat can act like a wild creature if she finds herself in an environment in which she is frightened. (As an aside, the municipal shelter which serves the two municipalities closest to my present residence has a cat kill rate of over 90% precisely because of such a policy. Their dog kill rate is over 50%.)
Sounds like we're comparing apples and oranges here, except for us both knowing we're talking about sentient beings traded as merchandise. Yes, as I've acknowledged, every breed that ever gets popular turns up at shelters. But here's what happens then, at least in my region, when the dog is of a particular breed: If a healthy Lab, for example, is surrendered to a shelter here, shelter staff places a call to the Labrador Retriever Club of the Potomac. The club of show breeders who are passionate about the LR breed. Someone from that kennel club will spring the dog from the shelter and that dog will be evaluated and placed in a foster home until a suitable long-term adopter steps up. This network of Labrador (very popular, very overbred, very often surrendered) lovers is highly successful in placing the dogs it rescues and fosters, and sometimes socializes. No doubt some regions and some kennel clubs have it together better than others, but this is a safety net designed to work well.

Every breed can also find its stock exploited in puppy mills and by backyard breeders, which is where most surrendered dogs come from. But that stock doesn't come from show breeders. Those spay/neuter contracts are enforceable in that the people tend to inhabit the same circles, and would be cut dead socially for a transgression like breeding a dog that had been sold on limited registration. The puppies are insanely expensive, and they tend to do quite well in vetted family homes. In comparison, the puppy millers and the backyard breeders don't give a rip what happens to their "product" once the check has cleared; they never want to see it again. And those two places are where most purebred dogs come from. What I'm describing is another world, which does not intersect with the first two except in that, as I wrote, show breeders will try to keep all members of their breed out of the shelters. Even the badly bred ones that came from puppy mills and backyard breeders. And I'll say it again: It's not that I'm pro-breeding. I just don't like to see all forms of it tarred with the same brush, and I can't agree that buying from show breeders robs shelter dogs of homes. It's two very different markets, and the high-end show breeder inhabits a tiny sliver of the overall market. And I'm also glad that these days there's a certain cachet for adopting a shelter dog instead of buying a show-type. The only dog in my immediate family these days belongs to my daughter. Captain Ahab is a completely toothless, three-legged, poorly bred Chihuahua, adopted last year from a no-kill shelter. Nervous as a tick when she got him, he settled in nicely and seems very happy these days.

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Every breed can also find its stock exploited in puppy mills and by backyard breeders, which is where most surrendered dogs come from. But that stock doesn't come from show breeders.
Take the example of the Tibetan terriers with which we started. They were initially only owned by show breeders. Now they are found in rescue. They got from Point A to Point B somehow, right?

The same is true for other breeds.

ETA: As for the "small world" and the chilling effect it supposedly has: The same friend inhabited that small world of Tibetan terrier breeders. There was a woman who, for many years, was extremely well thought of as a TT breeder. According to my friend, the woman was always immaculately groomed and dressed, and her dogs did well in shows. Everyone in that world was absolutely shocked when a year or two ago, the woman made the newspapers when her home was raided and her dogs were seized. She apparently had dozens of them living in her basement in absolute filth and around the clock darkness.

Hers is not the only such story. In a world where people continue to be surprised by the sexual molestation/domestic violence/etc. committed over the span of years by well regarded individuals, it shouldn't be surprising that people manage to hide what they do to/with nonhumans, no matter how small the world is which they inhabit.

ETA: Also take this example, which involves a woman running an avian rescue (which is also a very small world). I interacted with her on an avian board. She was extremely knowledgeable, very even tempered, always ready to help out. http://emilysbirds.com/the-birds/exe...mal-death.html

Last edited by Beautiful Joe; 03-10-2015 at 01:42 PM.
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#25 Old 03-10-2015, 01:45 PM
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In my case, while I appreciate the cuteness of baby animals (including baby humans), I find them much more interesting as individuals as they mature and their personalities emerge and mature over time. I don't start to find human children particularly interesting until they reach the age of four or five, at least, and I have a particular soft spot for senior nonhumans.

Kiwibird - is Kiwi the name of your little guy? I can see from your profile photo that he's an Amazon, but is he a double yellow headed Amazon?
I have to agree about kids not being terribly interesting (if not a tad annoying) before they're 5/6. Still, there is something so special about watching a very child learn about the world in a time frame in their life you'll never get back. Personally, I also want to experience pregnancy at least once, but I'm also not opposed at all to welcoming a non-biological child into our home either (all in the future). Both my maternal grandparents were orphans. My grandmother was adopted and raised by a wonderful family, my grandfather had to lie about his age to join the military underage to get out of the miserable orphanage he was stuck in. I would love to be the "wonderful home" to a child like my grandma had (though adoption restrictions may make that difficult to do since I don't think at this point we would financially qualify).

And yes, the little green guy is named Kiwi He's a blue front, though he doesn't have very much blue on his front. I believe he would be "classified" as an aestiva xanthopteryx. He was around 10 when we adopted him, and was a mess of aggressive male hormones (THAT phase). Now he's 16 and really mellowing out. I wish I could have gotten him as a baby, because I think he's be one of those "genius" birds now, but I'm also glad we're past the bad hormone stage now and he's still a wonderful and intelligent (and mischievous!) little creature
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#26 Old 03-10-2015, 01:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beautiful Joe View Post
Take the example of the Tibetan terriers with which we started. They were initially only owned by show breeders. Now they are found in rescue. They got from Point A to Point B somehow, right?

The same is true for other breeds.

ETA: As for the "small world" and the chilling effect it supposedly has: The same friend inhabited that small world of Tibetan terrier breeders. There was a woman who, for many years, was extremely well thought of as a TT breeder. According to my friend, the woman was always immaculately groomed and dressed, and her dogs did well in shows. Everyone in that world was absolutely shocked when a year or two ago, the woman made the newspapers when her home was raided and her dogs were seized. She apparently had dozens of them living in her basement in absolute filth and around the clock darkness.

Hers is not the only such story. In a world where people continue to be surprised by the sexual molestation/domestic violence/etc. committed over the span of years by well regarded individuals, it shouldn't be surprising that people manage to hide what they do to/with nonhumans, no matter how small the world is which they inhabit.
It's not true that a breed is initially owned only by show breeders. Breeds are discovered as having come up in certain -- sometimes isolated - parts of the world, often in isolation from other kinds of dogs, usually bred to do some kind of specific work. AKC recognition and show qualifications come much later. Sometimes they come back with soldiers returning from war zones. German Shepherds and French Poodles got very popular here after the two Great Wars. Labrador Retrievers were hunting dogs -- and quite popular -- long before they were show dogs, and so forth. "Designer" mutts -- labradoodles, maltipoos, whatever -- those aren't registered or shown, and probably never will be, though they are often surrendered to shelters. I can't think of any breed, designed or organic, that was first owned only by show breeders. Your friend's narrative omits the "Tibet" part of that terrier's history.

Last edited by Joan Kennedy; 03-10-2015 at 01:53 PM.
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#27 Old 03-10-2015, 01:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Kiwibird08 View Post
And yes, the little green guy is named Kiwi He's a blue front, though he doesn't have very much blue on his front. I believe he would be "classified" as an aestiva xanthopteryx. He was around 10 when we adopted him, and was a mess of aggressive male hormones (THAT phase). Now he's 16 and really mellowing out. I wish I could have gotten him as a baby, because I think he's be one of those "genius" birds now, but I'm also glad we're past the bad hormone stage now and he's still a wonderful and intelligent (and mischievous!) little creature
Ah, he is one of the "hot three" Amazon species! He's adorable, and looks like a happy and healthy bird.

None of my three Amazons likes being handled, although Paco will step up if necessary. He's in his thirties, a yellow crowned Amazon who was a breeder all of his life until his mate died and he refused to take another one, at which point his owner put him in a cardboard box and dropped him off at the local humane society. I ended up adopting Bertie (orange wing Amazon) to keep him company. She was wild caught and never handled, and is now in her thirties. She and Paco eventually decided to move in together. Amelia is a red lored Amazon, also a former breeder and afraid of hands (I have to keep my hands behind my back when approaching her). She's somewhere between her thirties and fifties.
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#28 Old 03-10-2015, 01:59 PM
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It's not true that a breed is initially owned only by show breeders. Breeds are discovered as having come up in certain -- sometimes isolated - parts of the world, often in isolation from other kinds of dogs, usually bred to do some kind of specific work. AKC recognition and show qualifications come much later. Sometimes they come back with soldiers returning from war zones. German Shepherds and French Poodles got very popular here after the two Great Wars. Labrador Retrievers were hunting dogs -- and quite popular -- long before they were show dogs, and so forth. "Designer" mutts -- labradoodles, maltipoos, whatever -- those aren't registered or shown, and probably never will be, though they are often surrendered to shelters. I can't think of any breed, designed or organic, that was first owned only by show breeders. Your friend's narrative omits the "Tibet" part of that terrier's history.
Tibetan terriers (and yes, they are an ancient breed in Tibet) were originally owned by show breeders in the U.S. (the country under discussion). That is how many purebreds from other parts of the world find themselves in the U.S. - they are brought in, and then bred, by a very limited number of people. It's not an unusual story for many breeds of dogs (as well as some breeds of cats).
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#29 Old 03-10-2015, 02:25 PM
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Ah, he is one of the "hot three" Amazon species! He's adorable, and looks like a happy and healthy bird.

None of my three Amazons likes being handled, although Paco will step up if necessary. He's in his thirties, a yellow crowned Amazon who was a breeder all of his life until his mate died and he refused to take another one, at which point his owner put him in a cardboard box and dropped him off at the local humane society. I ended up adopting Bertie (orange wing Amazon) to keep him company. She was wild caught and never handled, and is now in her thirties. She and Paco eventually decided to move in together. Amelia is a red lored Amazon, also a former breeder and afraid of hands (I have to keep my hands behind my back when approaching her). She's somewhere between her thirties and fifties.
That's a variety pack of amazons and none of them are social with humans! They must drive you nuts in the spring then I do love amazons though, they're my favorite parrots!

Kiwi was never handled (or certainly hadn't been for some time) when we got him. I stick trained him first, then step up trained using the slightly controversial method of gloved hands before there was enough trust between us for bare hands. It took over a year to get him to step up to a bare hand without biting, and there are times he still needs to step up on a stick (he gets overstimulated at times and hormonal in the spring). My moms wild caught DYH will go to most women, but she's scared to death of men, especially men with large or gloved hands. Even after 40 years, she only begrudgingly steps on a stick for my dad if absolutely necessary. Their green cheek (aka mexican redheaded) amazon will allow you to pick him up around the body and cradle him like a baby if you want and will go to absolutely anyone (they got him before he had feathers, so he's never feared humans). My mom has always thought her DYH was traumatized by a man or men grabbing her with gloved hands during her capture and quarantine and has never gotten over it. She was destined to be a breeder too but my mom happened to see her at the pet store right before she was taken to the back and refused to leave without her. Her and the green check are inseparably bonded, but have never mated (I don't think they can?).
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#30 Old 03-10-2015, 02:33 PM
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I'm sorry my posts are so long and wordy, especially as to the origins of breeds. So many working dogs – hunting and herding, especially – are still bred for work, by people who would actually rather they were kept out of the AKC beauty contests. A border collie breeder cares a lot more about herding ability than about the way the black versus white coat pattern is distributed. But the only point I really want to defend is why I disagree with breeders all being tarred by the same brush. The progeny of high-end breeding stock makes up such a tiny sliver of the overall market, – and I think between zero and 1% of dogs surrendered to shelters – I don't like seeing these guys dinged for what the bad guys do. Particularly when they do so much good work in rescue and rehabilitation. I don't think that line of responsibility, from show breeders to puppy mills, holds up. I think I've made that case, at least tried to, but I'm afraid it got lost in the word flood.
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