Why are some many Christians proud to eat meat? - Page 2 - VeggieBoards
Forum Jump: 
 46Likes
Reply
 
Thread Tools
#31 Old 06-21-2015, 05:21 AM
Newbie
 
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by Go Vegan View Post
Not the dreaded "my meat" comment! No! I always hear this

"I need my meat"
"I love my meat"
"I couldn't live without my meat"

As we were saying in another thread it's NOT YOUR meat and it never was!
This is spot on....and could more fittingly be posted to the 'STUPID THINGS OMNIVORES SAY'...as this is BY FAR not a uniquely or primarily Christian sentiment.....again answering the original premise of the thread.
Robmeister is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
#32 Old 06-21-2015, 05:36 AM
Vegan as f**k
 
Go Vegan's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Worthing, England
Posts: 2,228
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robmeister View Post
This is spot on....and could more fittingly be posted to the 'STUPID THINGS OMNIVORES SAY'...as this is BY FAR not a uniquely or primarily Christian sentiment.....again answering the original premise of the thread.
Agreed
Go Vegan is offline  
#33 Old 06-22-2015, 01:24 PM
Riot Nrrrd
 
Dave in MPLS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: St Cloud MN
Posts: 3,180
Quote:
The 3rd week of December was a Roman-Pagan festival called Saturnalia, loosely related to Hanukkah but never on the same days, later it was decided that December 25th would be the official day of Saturnalia (beginning from midnight), it was also called Dies Natalis Solis Invicti (birthday of the everlasting Sun), this accompanied the fact that Dec 25th was winter solstice and people celebrated the beginning of a new crop season.
You're wrong. But you're in good company. So was I.

You got the Saturnalia right. Where initially I differed was in how I viewed the relationship between Saturnalia and Christmas. My thought was the dates of the two were not related because Christmas was borrowed from Saturnalia, but because (as I remembered it) a pope once declared that Christian holidays should be celebrated on the dates of pagan holidays as a way of recruiting pagans and moderating the influence of pagan beliefs. I wasn't clear on the details, so I started Googling.

I found the pope's name. Pope Gregory the Great wrote a letter suggesting the scheme in 601. But there's a problem. The idea I had is a popular one, but probably incorrect. December 25 was being used in North Africa as Christ's birth date within the first few centuries CE.

So how did they arrive at that date? They extrapolated the unknown from the known, given their understanding of the Way Things Work. The known is the date of the crucifixion. You can derive that from the text of the Gospels - put in our calendar, March 25. For reasons that are beyond my understanding, the date of Christ's conception was considered to be the same as date of His execution (just in a different year, of course). If conception occured March 25, birth would happen 9 months later. December 25.

Original article here.
Beautiful Joe and varun like this.

Dave in MPLS / DISCLAIMER: I am not an actual rooster.
"It is better to light a candle than to curse the darkness"
National Suicide Prevention Lifeline 18002738255
Dave in MPLS is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
#34 Old 06-22-2015, 01:38 PM
Riot Nrrrd
 
Dave in MPLS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: St Cloud MN
Posts: 3,180
I should mention ...

Just to be clear, I am not arguing FOR December 25. I'm certain that it wasn't. There is nothing in the Bible that says it was, details in the two nativity narratives suggest otherwise, and it doesn't matter anyway.

Dave in MPLS / DISCLAIMER: I am not an actual rooster.
"It is better to light a candle than to curse the darkness"
National Suicide Prevention Lifeline 18002738255
Dave in MPLS is offline  
#35 Old 06-22-2015, 03:16 PM
Super Moderator
 
no whey jose's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: West Sussex, UK
Posts: 2,671
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave in MPLS View Post
You're wrong. But you're in good company. So was I.

You got the Saturnalia right. Where initially I differed was in how I viewed the relationship between Saturnalia and Christmas. My thought was the dates of the two were not related because Christmas was borrowed from Saturnalia, but because (as I remembered it) a pope once declared that Christian holidays should be celebrated on the dates of pagan holidays as a way of recruiting pagans and moderating the influence of pagan beliefs. I wasn't clear on the details, so I started Googling.

I found the pope's name. Pope Gregory the Great wrote a letter suggesting the scheme in 601. But there's a problem. The idea I had is a popular one, but probably incorrect. December 25 was being used in North Africa as Christ's birth date within the first few centuries CE.

So how did they arrive at that date? They extrapolated the unknown from the known, given their understanding of the Way Things Work. The known is the date of the crucifixion. You can derive that from the text of the Gospels - put in our calendar, March 25. For reasons that are beyond my understanding, the date of Christ's conception was considered to be the same as date of His execution (just in a different year, of course). If conception occured March 25, birth would happen 9 months later. December 25.

Original article here.
But birth doesn't happen nine months after conception. It's closer to ten. Wouldn't they celebrate his birth in mid-January?
varun likes this.
no whey jose is offline  
#36 Old 06-22-2015, 03:33 PM
Veggie Regular
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 4,325
Quote:
Originally Posted by no whey jose View Post
But birth doesn't happen nine months after conception. It's closer to ten. Wouldn't they celebrate his birth in mid-January?
Crikey nwj! You're trying to find logic in religious stuff from 2000 years ago....
leedsveg is offline  
#37 Old 06-23-2015, 10:36 AM
Riot Nrrrd
 
Dave in MPLS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: St Cloud MN
Posts: 3,180
Quote:
But birth doesn't happen nine months after conception. It's closer to ten. Wouldn't they celebrate his birth in mid-January?
Oddly enough, Christmas was celebrated in January in some communities.

As far as "closer to ten" ... It's pretty accepted to just say "9 months", discarding the fraction I guess. That's how it goes down in everyday conversation at least.

4th and 5th century texts explicitly use the believed relationship between conception and crucifixion to fix a birthdate (25 Dec or 6 Jan). I'm not saying it's accurate, I'm not saying it makes sense, I'm suggesting that we take how people say they derived those dates into account when trying to figure out where those dates come from.
no whey jose likes this.

Dave in MPLS / DISCLAIMER: I am not an actual rooster.
"It is better to light a candle than to curse the darkness"
National Suicide Prevention Lifeline 18002738255
Dave in MPLS is offline  
#38 Old 06-23-2015, 11:45 AM
Veggie Regular
 
varun's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 338
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave in MPLS View Post
Original article here
I completely get what you mean but the source itself is that of a Christian journal so its quite obvious what their point of view will be, this doesn't mean that I'm not wrong either. At this point in time most of us may have some things right and some things wrong but that's not enough to make a bullet-proof argument. I'm just learning new theories each day but at the end they are only theories. Some do come with great proof in the form of tangible evidence which is what I try to base my logic on as much as possible. There is speculation about Dies Natalis Solis Invicti being celebrated approx. 300 B.C, ok thin margin of error & not so reliable when it comes to proof, there is one more festival the Egyptians celebrated on Dec 25, i.e the birth of goddess Isis's (portrayed by Virgo the virgin) son Horus. This was approximately 1500 B.C. Of course since Horus is the Sun-god it again points to the fact that Dec 25th was their Winter solstice & the day when the Sun would rise again until summer equinox.

I have nothing against religion at the end of the day, each person is entitled to his/her view on God. What I debate about, in a way of sorts is when certain textual statements contradict with each other or clashes with factual timelines and that includes just about any literature that has passed many hands over time. Personally after browsing through the Tanach & the New Testament, there are absolutely no similarities in keeping with the berit (covenant). This is because the Jews are still living according to the Abrahamic / Mosaic Law, whereas Christians believe they have been redeemed by the new Messiah. Suffice to say that there are contradictions but each religion has its reasons & authority based on its past history. I'm just into friendly debates here & in no way mean to hurt religious sentiments.. we're on VB for a different purpose altogether so I shall stop it here.
leedsveg likes this.

The earth has enough resources for everyones need but not their greed.


Last edited by varun; 06-23-2015 at 12:03 PM.
varun is offline  
#39 Old 06-23-2015, 01:38 PM
Keep Calm and Drink Tea
 
RedTeaAddict's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: New York
Posts: 19
Well speaking as a Christian vegetarian the short answer is, unsurprisingly, arrogance.

There is a big problem in mainstream Christianity of "Look at me and how much of an awesome God obeying Christian I am because I do X but don't do Y" and loudly proclaiming the wonders of meat eating in the presence of a vegetarian/vegan is one of many cases. Many months prior to taking the plunge into full vegetarianism I left a church with this kind of arrogant attitude. The arrogance being one of the reasons why I left and have yet to go to any church since. There was also a lot of fundamentalist/legalistic garbage going on as well that ran contradictory to deep open and unbiased research into Judeo-Christian scripture reading that sickened me as well but that's a topic for another time.

I've never read anything about the allowance to eat animals being something to "curb humanity's violent nature" so I cannot speak to that. But you're right there is plenty in scripture that supports the concept of treating animals humanly and with respect whether they're for work, sacrifice, or food. It's a living thing ergo it demands respect especially if it is giving up its life to sustain yours. The first chapter of Isaiah being famous for the line "I do not delight in the blood of animals" and God essentially screaming at the human race to just stop acting like jerks instead of just slaughtering animals left and right so they can continue to act like jerks.
RedTeaAddict is offline  
#40 Old 06-24-2015, 07:25 AM
Veggie Regular
 
mecanna's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: North Mississippi
Posts: 373
According to Genesis 8:20-21, Exodus 29:15-25, 40-41, Leviticus 1:1-15, Leviticus 2,3,4,6,8, 17, 23, Numbers 15:1-22, etc... the smell of burnt flesh as an offering is pleasing to the lord.

I've heard this used as a reason to eat meat in discussions.

Now, to be fair to the Christians out there, I know some non-Christians who are ridiculously proud to eat meat.
peacefulveglady likes this.
mecanna is offline  
#41 Old 06-24-2015, 08:01 AM
Super Moderator
 
no whey jose's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: West Sussex, UK
Posts: 2,671
Quote:
Originally Posted by mecanna View Post
According to Genesis 8:20-21, Exodus 29:15-25, 40-41, Leviticus 1:1-15, Leviticus 2,3,4,6,8, 17, 23, Numbers 15:1-22, etc... the smell of burnt flesh as an offering is pleasing to the lord.

I've heard this used as a reason to eat meat in discussions.

Now, to be fair to the Christians out there, I know some non-Christians who are ridiculously proud to eat meat.
I don't think it counts as an offering if you eat it yourself!
no whey jose is offline  
#42 Old 06-24-2015, 01:21 PM
Veggie Regular
 
peacefulveglady's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Chicagoland IL area
Posts: 2,272
This is why i converted from Being a Christian to Paganism. Its more peaceful and I cannot deal with all the doctrines and teachings that most religious organized churches does. I am much more healthier and at peace . I am hardly sick anymore worrying about stuff.
Jasminedesi16 likes this.
peacefulveglady is offline  
#43 Old 06-27-2015, 11:58 AM
Veggie Regular
 
Jasminedesi16's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: philadelphia
Posts: 590
I don't think it is just Christians who are proud to eat meat. I'm pretty much an atheist or agnostic, and I have had some atheists just laugh at me and give the "top of the food chain" argument. And that we can eat them because they are less intelligent than us and our ancestors did it so we should too. I have many Muslim friends who are really proud to eat meat too and think I'm crazy for giving it up and will often say things "but halaal meat doesn't hurt anything and god said meat was healthy for us." There just people out there of all different backgrounds who are just really proud to eat meat.
Jasminedesi16 is offline  
#44 Old 06-27-2015, 01:42 PM
Newbie
 
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jasminedesi16 View Post
I don't think it is just Christians who are proud to eat meat. I'm pretty much an atheist or agnostic, and I have had some atheists just laugh at me and give the "top of the food chain" argument. And that we can eat them because they are less intelligent than us and our ancestors did it so we should too. I have many Muslim friends who are really proud to eat meat too and think I'm crazy for giving it up and will often say things "but halaal meat doesn't hurt anything and god said meat was healthy for us." There just people out there of all different backgrounds who are just really proud to eat meat.
A great answer to the original question that started this thread!!
Robmeister is offline  
#45 Old 06-27-2015, 10:13 PM
Riot Nrrrd
 
Dave in MPLS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: St Cloud MN
Posts: 3,180
Quote:
the source itself is that of a Christian journal so its quite obvious what their point of view will be
Than forget where it was printed. Deal with the raw facts. Just like we ask non-veggies to do when we cite things we find in The Vegan or Vegetarian Times or wherever. Where something was printed is simply irrelevant. Disregarding something based on one's opinion of the source rather than by engaging with the claim being made says more about one's own unstated (and possibly unrecognized) commitments than it does about the claim in dispute.

Attempting to impeach a fact (or opinion) based solely on it's source is a logical fallacy, anyway.

-----

But to answer the OP's question, I agree with those that held that pride in carnivory is far from a Christian-only phenomenon.

Dave in MPLS / DISCLAIMER: I am not an actual rooster.
"It is better to light a candle than to curse the darkness"
National Suicide Prevention Lifeline 18002738255
Dave in MPLS is offline  
#46 Old 06-27-2015, 10:35 PM
Super Moderator
 
no whey jose's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: West Sussex, UK
Posts: 2,671
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave in MPLS View Post
Than forget where it was printed. Deal with the raw facts. Just like we ask non-veggies to do when we cite things we find in The Vegan or Vegetarian Times or wherever. Where something was printed is simply irrelevant. Disregarding something based on one's opinion of the source rather than by engaging with the claim being made says more about one's own unstated (and possibly unrecognized) commitments than it does about the claim in dispute.

Attempting to impeach a fact (or opinion) based solely on it's source is a logical fallacy, anyway.

-----

But to answer the OP's question, I agree with those that held that pride in carnivory is far from a Christian-only phenomenon.
I haven't read the Christian article, so this might be irrelevant to the particular thing you're referencing, but I just wanted to say that sometimes the bias of a particular source does matter. Certain websites deal in opinion rather than fact. I'm thinking of the Weston A. Price Foundation and that popular site about how vegan diets destroy dental health.
no whey jose is offline  
#47 Old 06-28-2015, 09:58 PM
Riot Nrrrd
 
Dave in MPLS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: St Cloud MN
Posts: 3,180
Quote:
Originally Posted by no whey jose View Post
I haven't read the Christian article, so this might be irrelevant to the particular thing you're referencing, but I just wanted to say that sometimes the bias of a particular source does matter. Certain websites deal in opinion rather than fact. I'm thinking of the Weston A. Price Foundation and that popular site about how vegan diets destroy dental health.
That's why it's important to engage with the claim itself before handwringing over the source. If someone says to me "WAPF said this" I'd respond to whatever "this" is claiming rather than pointing out that WAPF is ... unreliable. I most likely will go on a nice little tear about the Foundation as well, but after I've addressed the real issue.

On this specific issue, it feels like the argument isn't with me or my source, but with Kirk Cameron. I'm not Kirk. I assure you.
no whey jose likes this.

Dave in MPLS / DISCLAIMER: I am not an actual rooster.
"It is better to light a candle than to curse the darkness"
National Suicide Prevention Lifeline 18002738255
Dave in MPLS is offline  
#48 Old 06-28-2015, 10:30 PM
Super Moderator
 
no whey jose's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: West Sussex, UK
Posts: 2,671
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave in MPLS View Post
That's why it's important to engage with the claim itself before handwringing over the source. If someone says to me "WAPF said this" I'd respond to whatever "this" is claiming rather than pointing out that WAPF is ... unreliable. I most likely will go on a nice little tear about the Foundation as well, but after I've addressed the real issue.

On this specific issue, it feels like the argument isn't with me or my source, but with Kirk Cameron. I'm not Kirk. I assure you.
That sounds like a good strategy. I'll keep that in mind next time the issue comes up in a debate. Thanks!
no whey jose is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the VeggieBoards forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
If you do not want to register, fill this field only and the name will be used as user name for your post.
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in


Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off