Reagan. mental hospitals - VeggieBoards
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#1 Old 06-09-2004, 10:04 PM
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Was Ronald Reagon have a life-long condition of being mildly retarded, intellectually challenged? It seems apparent.



Certainly, his manner betrays that his way of being president was to be the spokesperson for the people that made the decisions. He was a good announcer. He had good face. A nice speaking voice. A pleasant manner. But there was clearly something wrong with his intellect. He lacked curiosity. He did not ask enough questions. He optimism was partly optimism and partly lack of normal perception, adequate perception, of problems. He just did not seem like a problems solver to me.



There seems to be little reason to have any animosity toward him. He is a nice, dopey guy. But I think that probably he was put in the position of fronting for those who weren't so nice, and who didn't have the self-presenation skills necessary to get themselves to appear nice. Theses are the people we should be angry at, not dopey little Reagan.



yes, he was likable. But his actions did not benefit the nation as a whole.



though I have to disagree that closing mental hospitals was a bad thing. If they were really hospitals, it would have been a bad thing, but by the time they were being closed, they had evolved from the hospitals they had been at first, when Quakers began humane institutions 100 years ago, into prisons masquerading as hospitals. Except for a few private ones.



People talk about how rape is common in prisons. At the time mh's were closed, rape was more common in mh's than in prisons. The "orderlies," that is, the guards, were even less humane and less capable than prison guards. They were very often the lowest of the low.



I don't know anyone who has been to both a public mh and a prison, who thinks that the mh was a more pleasant place to be.



Thank god we don't have these horrible institutions any more.



By the time they were closed in the late 60's and early 70's, they were worse than what was protrayed in One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest.



Unruly patients were frequently permanently damanged or even killed, with overdoses of drugs. Many of the so-called mentally ill, the symptoms that you see they have, are not really the symptoms of internally-arising mental illness -- they are the symptoms of brain damage caused by psyhcotropic drugs forced on mental hospital patients, in extravagant amounts. For example the Parkinson's like symtoms called "tardive dyskenesia." Result of drugs.
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#2 Old 06-11-2004, 10:04 AM
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Though I wouldnt have voted for him had I been old enough, nor agreed with many of his policies I credit Reagan with getting me interested in following politics. On Election night 1984, a 7 year old in california got to stay up late watching the election results and commentary. Very cool and something I credit with part of my interest in following politics.
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#3 Old 06-11-2004, 05:54 PM
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reminds me a bit of bush :-x
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#4 Old 06-11-2004, 09:11 PM
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After reading this thread, I for one am thankful that mental institutions are alive and kicking.
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#5 Old 06-11-2004, 11:49 PM
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I'm confused.
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#6 Old 06-12-2004, 12:40 AM
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i am not at all liking the way mental health handles people like me at all. or handles anyon e for that matter.
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#7 Old 06-13-2004, 07:03 AM
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Mental hospitals, and the mental health movement, are largely about control. This is a greater priority for them than "healing" people. Perhaps this is wha Rebel Girl doesn't like. They are afraid of losing their control. In that sense, they resemble the police departments more than they resemble the health profession, though the health profession is also extremely interested in control, and are way to authoritative as opposed to healing. The health professions, at least, do do some healing. Mental health system is more about protecting the "sane" population from people with unpredicatable behavior or behavior they don't understand. This thing they say "don't you want to get well" is code for "won't you cooperate with us so we don't have to use force?" They don't tolerate any disobedience, and are in that sense, even more authoritative than the police.



In prison, you must behave, or you will be punished. While they do try to control your thinking, as well as your actions, the mental hospitals and mental health clinics are more authoritative in controlling people's thinking. Give even the slightest sign that you are not thinking they way they want you to think, and they will come down on you hard.



The worst thinking offense - is the one I just stated - thinking that anything they do is more in their interests than yours. They won't have that. You believe they are helping you, or you will be sorry. This is what you have to know to get along inside a mental hospital, or you will be hurt by the experience. You must affirm their egos, or they will damage you.



I have known several former mental patients, now approximately in their 60's, who lived in mental hospitals during the 50's and 60's, when they were teenagers or young adults. They hospital harmed them in unconscionable ways. Ways that still hurt them today.



I agree with soilman that closing them was a good thing. We should continue to try to work to minimize the use of these institutions, the way they were, and the way they still are. For those people that can't take care of themselves, we have to invent a completely different model of care, than the mental institutions of the 50's and 60's and their contemporary living remnant. I hestitate to even use the word "care" for what these institutions did, and still do. It is control, not care. Based on fear, not love. And the result is always damage, not restoral to health or restoral to mental normalcy.
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#8 Old 06-13-2004, 10:56 AM
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that is why mental hospitals, prisons and schools all have the same architecture. what is the point of a prison? to regulate the mind and actions. same with mental health, and same with school, even though it doesnt sound right, many old mental hospitals are now schools. mine was.
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#9 Old 06-13-2004, 11:01 AM
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Eh, some people need to be locked up and kept away from the rest of us.
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#10 Old 06-13-2004, 11:08 AM
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that comment just sorta made me bristle.
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#11 Old 06-13-2004, 11:11 AM
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It's reality. Some people are too crackers to function in society, and we have to have a place to put them.
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#12 Old 06-13-2004, 11:55 AM
 
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The problem with discharging so many people from mental hospitals was that many of them had no place to go, and weren't able to work & function "normally." That's why so many of them ended up homeless.
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#13 Old 06-13-2004, 12:00 PM
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Tame writes
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It's reality. Some people are too crackers to function in society, and we have to have a place to put them.



Fine. But let's not pretend we are "helping them recover from an illness."



If they have done something that the rest of us can't accept, and if we think they are going to do it again, and if they have done it on purpose, let's charge them with a crime, and make sure they get a jury of their peers to decide whether they really did it, not 2 guys that graduated from medical school.



If they are truly unable to control themselves, due to some kind of brain tumor or something (Marvin Gaye's father?), and if it is truly not their fault that they hurt someone, or killed someone (I'm trying to imagine someone robbing someone being due to a brain tumor -- and I can't) -- which is only the case in a tiny fraction of all the people locked up in hospitals -- then yes, let's take that into consideration, and arrange to create institutions where someone like Marvin Gaye's father, they can be treated humanely, instead of placing them in so-called hospitals that are even more punishing than prisons.



If they commit a crime, not matter how senseless it seems, and therfore "insane" it seems, if they did it on purpose, let's try them by a jury of their peers and put them in a prison, not in a hospital.
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#14 Old 06-13-2004, 12:06 PM
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Gracie writes
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The problem with discharging so many people from mental hospitals was that many of them had no place to go, and weren't able to work & function "normally." That's why so many of them ended up homeless.



Indeed. But instead of putting them back in an institution that is worse than a jail, lets try to give them a little extra help with living, finding them housing, even arranging for group homes, which has been done, but not enough. If they are so completely incompetant of taking care of themselves that they need round the clock attention, let's put them in an institution where they are treated humanely, not in the horrible institutions that we had, and that still exist to some extant.



By the way, at one time mental hospitals were even worse, run by the government, and then Quaker charitable organizations began housing people, saying that the people were ill, rather than "possessed," and made their institutions much more humane, genuine "asylums" but gradually they degenerated as they went back into the hands of government burocrats, instead of remaining under the control of caring charity groups. The appellation "ill" and "sick" which at first was used kindly, when applied to people who couldn't function normally, slowly evolved into becoming a pejorative. 100 years ago, if you said someone was sick, that meant you liked them and you cared about them. Today it means you hate them and you want them out of your hair.
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#15 Old 06-13-2004, 12:26 PM
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Around 1950 or so, Thorizene began replacing straight jackets, being tied to the bed, being put in a plaster cast, etcetera, for a large percentage of the people whose behavior was felt to be a problem, or who were tought to be dangerous to themselves, or others. You prefer chemically stopping people from moving around instead of mechanically stopping them, fine. But let's not tell them, their families, and everyone else, that the drugs are going to make them "feel better." And let's not neglect to tell their families that 20 years down the road, these drugs are very likely to give them Parkinsons like symtoms that will persist even if the drugs are stopped.
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#16 Old 06-13-2004, 01:52 PM
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does anyone read the Prozac section of adbusters?



ive got madpride.
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#17 Old 06-13-2004, 02:03 PM
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Quote:
does anyone read the Prozac section of adbusters?



ive got madpride.



????



http://www.prozacspotlight.org/madpride/index.html



Fairly good article.
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#18 Old 06-13-2004, 02:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tame View Post

It's reality. Some people are too crackers to function in society, and we have to have a place to put them.



it is the sad truth, but hopefully we can devise a way to appropriately place people based on what their issue is instead of categorizing them in an unfair way
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#19 Old 06-13-2004, 04:24 PM
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if anyone is labeled as mentally deffective in any way, their life is pretty much over from there. even if they are "cured" no one will ever view them the same and everything that they were once used too just suddenly is taken away.
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#20 Old 06-14-2004, 11:38 AM
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And Rebel Girl: As someone who has been labeled "Mentally Ill" I don't think that my "life is over." I function, I have a job, I have friends, I can pay my bills. Its unfair to call anyone who has a condition as "defective". But, its all in perspective, I suppose.



Read "Mad in America" for a good look at American Mental Institutions through the years.
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#21 Old 06-15-2004, 02:11 PM
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yeah i suppose its all perspective, because while no one really knows it yet, i am "legally insane"by my state. i know if "they" found out everything would just fall apart for me. its been rough enough getting caught purging in the school bathrooms, botched suicide attempts, etc etc. i dont mean defective in anyway, i mean, sorta like a balance is screwed up or something. my life is in a very sensitive balance and if anything tipped it a little, i dont know what would happen. . yeah.
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#22 Old 06-15-2004, 09:50 PM
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Just try not to generalize.



Many of us have worked for years to maintain being productive members of society. I don't feel unbalanced by any outrageous standards. Granted, I take medication, I am semi-reliant on it. Other than that, I don't feel too out of place with my age group.
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#23 Old 06-16-2004, 12:41 AM
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im trying, trying trying.
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#24 Old 06-16-2004, 04:20 AM
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if anyone is labeled as mentally deffective in any way, their life is pretty much over from there. even if they are "cured" no one will ever view them the same and everything that they were once used too just suddenly is taken away... while no one really knows it yet, i am "legally insane"by my state. i know if "they" found out everything would just fall apart for me.



If you are able to act and look normal, can you prevent people from finding out about your history, or does you history follow you around in the form of public records that people can look up (much like they can look up felony records, state by state)? Can prospective employers get info about your history from background reports?



Are there any human resources people reading this that can answer that question? That would be very helpful if you could tell us.
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#25 Old 06-16-2004, 12:49 PM
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In regard to Regan's hand in all of this, he was a tool, yes, but a tool with enough brain function to become president. As a result, he's the figurehead of responsibility and is at least partially culpable for the havoc he wreaked.



Certainly, mental institutions were in an atrocious state during the time he was president, but abolishing them with absolutely no follow-up plan was moronic. The situation went from really bad to really bad but different.
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#26 Old 06-16-2004, 01:18 PM
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Quote:
It's reality. Some people are too crackers to function in society, and we have to have a place to put them



HAHAHAHA..My boss was walking by when i saw this and i had to do evrything i could not to bust out laughing.



Isn't that why they got their own bus and where able to leave school 30 mins early

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#27 Old 06-16-2004, 06:48 PM
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Tame writes
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It's reality. Some people are too crackers to function in society, and we have to have a place to put them



Sadly, most, nearly all, of the people who are placed in mental hospitals are harmless to others. A typical reason someone might be there is for depression. There are many who are women, like my friend, who suffer from post-partum depression. After her family committed her I decided to learn a little more about who is hospitalized, and why.



Others are there because have overwhelming anxiety that makes their life difficult. Perhaps this is, like they have agoraphobia, and so are afraid to go out even to go food shopping. So they don't have food. Their family may not have time to shop for them.



Even the psychotics are rarely dangerous. This is not only from visiting my friend that I saw them, but I decided to learn about it, and I read the statistics. They may prattle about how they are jesus. Or they may think radio waves form broadcast stations are going to melt everyone's bones or something -- so they cover themselves with aluminum foil, and won't leave their aluminum foil cocoon. They don't eat, their family doesn't have time or money or adequate insurance to care for them at home, they become institutionalized.



Maybe about 98% are harmless to others. Most are harmless to themselves. But if they are harmful to themselves it is usually as described above, they don't feed themselves, they don't bathe maybe. More than 50% are women. Very few really need institutionalization. The main reason they are there is it is too expensive for home care. Perhaps if their families had money, their families could afford a part-time aid to look after them, make sure they ate, bathed, etc. But perhaps their medical insurance won't cover this, and will only cover institutionalization. Or perhaps, like in the case of my friend, when her post-partum depression made it difficult for her to take care of the baby, her husband decided that taking time to care for the child, and hiring someone to help him and his wife care for the child, would have interefered too much with his relationship with his new girldfriend, and his depressed wife would have interefered with this relationship too much also -- he decided it would be easier to just get his wife entirely out of the way. So there they are.



The press overlooks this vast majority, because it is not sensational. The press tells us about the killers -- and we erroneously think most of the mentally ill are killers. In actuatlity, the mentally ill commit crimes at about the same rate, or less frequently, than the general population.
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#28 Old 06-16-2004, 08:54 PM
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Depends on which hospitals you are talking about. In several there people who are a danger to themselves and others.



Though those who are dangerous are usually on an acute unit, where they are kept from doing anyone harm.
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#29 Old 06-16-2004, 08:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by virginia View Post

If you are able to act and look normal, can you prevent people from finding out about your history, or does you history follow you around in the form of public records that people can look up (much like they can look up felony records, state by state)? Can prospective employers get info about your history from background reports?



Are there any human resources people reading this that can answer that question? That would be very helpful if you could tell us.



Where I live atleast, no an employer is not privy to my medical records. This is of course not including those jobs in law enforcement, etc. where they would need to know, and probably could procure the information.



Then again, I know that I can never register to own a firearm as I've been in hospital. So maybe the information is out there and available.
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#30 Old 06-17-2004, 12:31 AM
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if you are commited to any type of mental facility it sorta..doesnt hang about your records, but then, like Ker said with the fire arms, it keeps you from doing certain things. if you are found mentally_____ in court of law, that follows you around to, but im not sure how. and if you see a therapist/and the medications you are on while you are a minor in school, it gets placed on your school records, which follows you around some what too.
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