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#1 Old 08-25-2014, 04:14 PM
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why do some vegans hate vegetarians?

I've seen strong,strong disdain towards vegetarians from vegans and i find this to be really really wrong. Honestly,it's that stuff right there that was probably part of the reason i was turned off by veganism back in the day. I mean,it's obvious that will turn people off because people won't want to be like those crazy vegan sterotypes. vegetarians don't really have a crazy reputation. Vegans do and that craziness tends to instantly repel people Vegetarians imo,are making a big difference in things and are doing an amazing thing and should be encouraged. I do not understand why a lot of vegans hate them,i think if anything it'd be the opposite..Whenever i find someone is vegetarian,i get happy. I also think if the whole world was vegetarian factory farming wouldn't exist so again,i dont get the hate. I find vegetarians tend to come off as peaceful types,animal lovers,etc where vegans tend to come off as crazy extremists. While some of that i disagree with,the more i go down this path,the more i see it,too. I feel like i have to make sure people don't think i'm going to be like that which is a damn shame.I find the extreme ways some vegans can be,to in fact hurt the cause.

For example,only dating vegans,forcing others to change their diet,and so on,and on. I think it's better to be an inspiration and to show people how awesome what your doing is vs coming off as a very small percentage of the population and cliqueish in an anti sort of way. I think we have to think,what really makes people turn away from veganism and make them judge us?

I personally refuse to be a granola girl vegan who only dates vegans and has only vegan friends and shouts at people for not being vegan. I will be me,inspire others by just being,and utilize how can one make veganism mainstream? I almost think some extreme vegans don't want the world to be vegan and would rather hang in their clique. I had thought about joining a vegan meetup myself possibly,but now i don't know. Maybe it's not needed. Maybe i'm better off exploring other interests. That might be better psychological sunshine for me and enable me to spread the message better.

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#2 Old 08-25-2014, 04:50 PM
 
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I don't hate anybody. I personally think "ethical vegetarianism" is a spurious pursuit, though. At least the suffering is through for the animals that have been slaughtered. Dairy cows and egg hens have to go on "living" horrible lives. You claim factory farming would cease if everybody were vegetarian...but how then would you get milk, cheese, eggs, etc?

You call vegans "crazy extremists" which is as offensive as if I were to characterize all vegetarians as wishy-washy hypocrites. Everybody is different. I'm on board with "crazy" people if they're fighting for a just cause.

Last edited by frrt; 08-25-2014 at 04:52 PM.
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#3 Old 08-25-2014, 06:49 PM
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I don't hate anybody. I personally think "ethical vegetarianism" is a spurious pursuit, though. At least the suffering is through for the animals that have been slaughtered. Dairy cows and egg hens have to go on "living" horrible lives. You claim factory farming would cease if everybody were vegetarian...but how then would you get milk, cheese, eggs, etc?

You call vegans "crazy extremists" which is as offensive as if I were to characterize all vegetarians as wishy-washy hypocrites. Everybody is different. I'm on board with "crazy" people if they're fighting for a just cause.
Well,i'm on board for what actually makes a difference. how are veggies wishy washy?
Do you think factory farming would exist for dairy and eggs? I am actually curious about this issue. Would farms at the least change dramatically if meat no longer was a thing to eat? I think factory farming is what it is,because of the meat. If people demonstrated through not eating meat,i do think factory farming would dramatically change or cease to exist. Maybe i'm wrong,it's just a theory. I understand vegan's anger. I just think we should try and soften up some so we can get the message delivered in an efficient way and a small percent of vegans i think have a hateful way of delivering.

BTW,i actually do appreciate harsher tactics like ingrid newkirk and peta for example. I think we need the crazy extremists for what they bring to the table as well. The crazy ones certaintly serve a purpose. I don't think we should always be super polite about the issues. I just don't understand the hate towards veggies. For the record,i made my decison to be vegetarian as a child and didn't even know factory farming applied to cheese and eggs. i just watched a peta video and became vegetarian and never looked back so basically some of the vegans hating vegetarians are in fact unwarranted because they don't know any better,and havent made the connection.

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#4 Old 08-25-2014, 08:32 PM
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The sciency explanation: asymmetric horizontal hostility. A bit out of my areas of expertise, but I've read the one paper on it that I can access, you can grab a copy here. I'd be lying if I said I grokked it, but I think I get the jist. Basically, you have similar groups. The hostility the smaller group displays towards the larger, more mainstream group functions to solidify the group identity of that smaller group. Or something like that.

There's also this study, but all I can access is the abstract, and it kind of confuses me.

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#5 Old 08-25-2014, 08:47 PM
 
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I made a similar comment in a different thread, but people are people no matter what they eat, do, believe, etc. Some will be judgemental, others not. I happen to be vegan myself and found myself reassuring people that I didn't fit the vegan stereotype, but accidentally offended a vegetarian that fit the vegan stereotype. Go figure.

That being said, I think that maybe the more specific your ideals are, the more dogmatic and intolerant you are likely to become. This does not apply to everyone, but it's an accurate generalization that applies to other areas of life, too.
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#6 Old 08-25-2014, 09:41 PM
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There is a popular vegan group on twitter,i wont name names publicly that constantly is bashing vegetarians. I know for a fact that would've kept me from ever considering veganism back before. I didn't UNDERSTAND why they gave up eggs and cheese and that is the truth. Because of their stance of being constantly negative,i actually don't like their posts all. They are so negative. How the heck is that going to change anyone's opinions?
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#7 Old 08-25-2014, 10:39 PM
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I'm not a vegan, but I assume the hostility (I won't go as far as 'hate') comes from the fact that vegetarians are close enough to it to hear the message, but not close enough to take it on board.

It's like with my friends who rescue animals (like dogs and cats) or get upset when an owner fails their pet and it has to be put down. They're SO CLOSE to being vegetarians. They, in many ways, 'get' what being vegetarian is. But they just will not give up the slice of pig on their plate. On some level, they understand that what they're doing isn't great and that they can change it, they know they can change it, but they don't.

Maybe that's how vegans feel about vegetarians. We're already IN the discussion about animal rights, it's part of the discussions we have, it's part of how we think, it's in our actions already. But we're just not there, the way the vegans are there. Plus, they know part of us will listen. After all, we're awake enough to know that what's going on to animals is wrong. We're more open to taking a step towards veganism, than someone who eats meat every meal.

To me, it seems strange for anyone to expect someone else to adopt their way of thinking by yelling at them. In the thousands of years we've been believing things, forcing someone or guilting them into a belief doesn't work very well and it doesn't work for very long.

Though, I will say that the majority of vegans on this board are awesome and I really can't say a bad thing about them. I've seen what some vegans on other parts of the Internet say about vegetarians, they're not being helpful. But our vegans here? Totally helpful.
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#8 Old 08-26-2014, 04:40 AM
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I don't hate anybody. I personally think "ethical vegetarianism" is a spurious pursuit, though. At least the suffering is through for the animals that have been slaughtered. Dairy cows and egg hens have to go on "living" horrible lives. You claim factory farming would cease if everybody were vegetarian...but how then would you get milk, cheese, eggs, etc?

You call vegans "crazy extremists" which is as offensive as if I were to characterize all vegetarians as wishy-washy hypocrites. Everybody is different. I'm on board with "crazy" people if they're fighting for a just cause.
I think this pretty much sums it up on how ethical vegans feel. The dairy and egg industry is just as cruel, if not crueler than the flesh industry and vegetarians are part of the problem. There's no getting around that, there's no middle ground. Vegetarians need to understand that and not attempt to justify their diet to an ethical vegan because you will be shot down.

I admire ethical vegans and what they do. Sometimes they can be a bit judgmental (some of the worst haven't even been vegan that long) and forget that they weren't always vegan and they need to allow other people time and their own journey, but for the most part, I like how vegans set the example.

I wouldn't let a few haters make you brand "vegans hate vegetarians". Vegans disagree with the idea of vegetarianism, but they all don't hate.
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#9 Old 08-26-2014, 06:26 AM
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I think this pretty much sums it up on how ethical vegans feel. The dairy and egg industry is just as cruel, if not crueler than the flesh industry and vegetarians are part of the problem. There's no getting around that, there's no middle ground. Vegetarians need to understand that and not attempt to justify their diet to an ethical vegan because you will be shot down.
Oh, there's a middle ground. It doesn't reflect what you believe and how you want to live, but that's no grounds for denying its existence. Depth of commitment is rarely the same between any two people. Food and habit exert different holds on all of us, and even people with similar beliefs vary as to how well they can sustain a lifestyle they experience as rigorous, demanding, and isolating.

The dairy and egg industries have many built-in cruelties, but compared to the beef and broiler industries they are far smaller. They keep their animals alive longer, but there are also far fewer of them. Billions of broilers vs millions of egg layers. Similar size difference between beef cattle and dairy cows. Giving up meat addresses a much larger animal welfare problem than does giving up dairy and eggs. And reducing dairy and eggs goes a long way to address the rest of the cruelty. Which I mention because I have yet to meet a vegetarian who eats massive quantities of eggs and dairy products. I'm sure there are some out there who do, but the vegs I know have cut back substantially on all animal products. If their habits were the norm, there would be no battery farms or factory dairies. It makes no sense to maintain there is no middle ground. Any consumer's decisions will either add to, or subtract from, demand for foods that come from animals. If your usage is far below average, you pull the average down.

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#10 Old 08-26-2014, 06:32 AM
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Being a veg*n, IOW a non-meat eater, is better than eating meat.

Whether you want to transition to vegan or raw.....it's up to you.

Glass half full.

All animals should be respected & should have the ability to lead a natural & enjoyable life. This means not eating them, or abusing them in any way.
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#11 Old 08-26-2014, 06:43 AM
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The dairy and egg industries are cruel, but compared to the beef and broiler industries they are far smaller. They keep their animals alive longer, but there are also far fewer of them. Billions of broilers vs millions of egg layers. Similar size difference between beef cattle and dairy cows. Giving up meat addresses a much larger animal welfare problem than does giving up dairy and eggs. And reducing dairy and eggs goes a long way to address the rest of the cruelty. Which I mention because I have yet to meet a vegetarian who eats massive quantities of eggs and dairy products. I'm sure there are some out there who do, but the vegs I know have cut back substantially on all animal products. If their habits were the norm, there would be no battery farms or factory dairies. It makes no sense to maintain there is no middle ground. Any consumer's decisions will either add to, or subtract from, demand for foods that come from animals. If your usage is far below average, you pull the average down.
Well I've met a vegetarian that loves animals and ate a huge amount of dairy, but she doesn't seem to be the norm.

Also, as was pointed out the lives are longer...cruel long miserable lives.

That all said, giving up meat is a huge issue and nothing to poo poo about. A good deal of current vegans were vegetarian first, and meat eaters before that. (Something some of them forget sometimes). Personally, I rejoice in any all efforts to go plant based and there is no justification for rudeness on vegans parts when dealing with the rest of the world. Everyone has their own path, their own bottom line, their own tolerance for what they accept in their lives and around them. I get that and get that I might not fit into that world.

But like is said above, for ethical vegans the glass is half full. Vegetarians need to understand this when trying to justify their diet to them because there is no justification...cruelty is cruelty....so no need to scratch your head when they state their case against vegetarians or whine "why do they hate me"....it might be better and less cruel to be vegetarian, but it's not enough. I get that and vegetarians would be wise to not try to engage them in this...vegans would be wise to set the example and not be confrontational.

So while there may be a middle ground where we can get along in the world together without hate (I truly hope so), I'm still going to say for a vegan there is no middle ground....being vegan means being vegan...not 95% vegan with the occasional cheese or diary because that's not so bad or cruel as a meat eater. Being cruelty free means being vegan.
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#12 Old 08-26-2014, 06:52 AM
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Vegetarians don't whine about "why do they hate me." When encountering unprovoked hostility from the odd vegan or omnivore, we'll pretty much just write off a flake as a flake. If it's someone I know IRL, it helps to remember that person has always had thorny personality issues.
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#13 Old 08-26-2014, 07:14 AM
 
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I (sadly) don't know any vegans in real life, although I would love to meet some. Although, through the internet, I can't say I've ever come across any vegans HATING on veggies.

As a vegan myself, the only negativity I feel towards vegetarians (in regards solely to their diet) is frustration. I'm glad they're vegetarian, because they are still making some difference - "Nobody made a greater mistake than he who did nothing because he could only do a little". But it's frustrating because I guess I just wish they would take that next step & spare the chickens, bees & dairy cows, too.

If I come across a callous, cold-hearted omnivore who does not care & does not want to change under any circumstances... it makes me sad, but I try not to trouble myself with it because people like that will never see things the way that we do. But when I meet a vegetarian... I know that they do see it that way, that they are caring, compassionate, responsible human beings... so why not take that extra step?

However I do agree with you when it comes to spreading the message - live your best life & be the best you, set an amazing example for veganism & simply show others how wonderful the lifestyle is.

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#14 Old 08-26-2014, 07:43 AM
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Vegetarians don't whine about "why do they hate me." When encountering unprovoked hostility from the odd vegan or omnivore, we'll pretty much just write off a flake as a flake. If it's someone I know IRL, it helps to remember that person has always had thorny personality issues.
Fair enough. Perhaps 'whine' isn't a good word. Questioning might be better. To be fair the OP did say 'some vegans" and wasn't labeling or whining.


I think it would be helpful to understand where they are coming from and no way, no how are they coming over to a vegetarians side and agreeing with them.

Unprovoked hostility and personality disorders is another thing. Passionate defense of veganism is another. Some people can't handle that passion and label it hate and hostility when it's not there.

Respect though is a two-way street.

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#15 Old 08-26-2014, 07:54 AM
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I can't answer as I don't hate vegetarians and I don't know any vegans IRL or online who hate vegetarians.

I appreciate the steps vegetarians are taking in saving some animals, much like an omni who cuts back on animal flesh/fluids. While vegetarians and omnis may not have a cruelty-free approach to their diets, I appreciate any animal saved.

I just try to live out my ethics and remember that I was once an omni and am responsible for untold death and suffering via meat and dairy consumption for most of my life. I will carry that guilt for the rest of my days.
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#16 Old 08-26-2014, 08:10 AM
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Fair enough. Perhaps 'whine' isn't a good word. Questioning might be better. To be fair the OP did say 'some vegans and wasn't labeling or whining".

I think it would be helpful to understand where they are coming from and no way, no how are they coming over to a vegetarians side and agreeing with them.

Unprovoked hostility and personality disorders is another thing. Passionate defense of veganism is another. Some people can't handle that passion and label it hate and hostility when it's not there.
Defense of veganism is fine, it's better than fine. I defend veganism all the time to omnivores. It's not just that OP said "some" vegans hate vegetarians; my understanding was that this person is vegan herself, and struggling with whether she wants to keep describing herself with a term that she perceives as having a lot of unwanted baggage attached to it.

To my eye, it's not that vegans are socially anxious and awkward; the vegans I meet seem as socially confident and accepting as anyone else I meet. It's that a lot of socially awkward people find that veganism suits them to an uncanny degree, and their veganism can serve as a screen for other issues, and they can sort of become the public face of veganism, to the consternation of people who love animals and vegan food but don't need that drama attached to them. The eating disorders connection needs no explanation. I know vegans with autism who adore animals, but other people give them the hives. Plus, some of them have such vivid sense of taste that what you or I would experience as umami tastes absolutely sickening to them. If you'd only date another vegan, that can become one excellent reason to be permanently single. If you can't stand to see people eating meat, that serves to explain why you take your lunch at your desk and not in the lunchroom. If you only want to socialize with other vegans but don't know any, that's a rational explanation for being completely isolated socially. If you're a perfectionist in other areas of your life and you become vegan, your veganism may become more about personal purity than it is about justice for nonhuman animals. And on and on. If you love to argue passionately about other things and you go vegan, you like to argue passionately about that.

As a rule, vegans don't bust on the vegetarians in their lives about what's on their plates. As a rule, vegans tend not to be the ones to bring it up at all, and as a rule, vegetarians don't bring it up to them by way of trying to justify their own different lines in the sand. The issue, I think, is almost entirely online. This board used to be rife with it, but it's been awhile since that was the case. Other boards, vegetarians are a distinctly lower form of life.

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#17 Old 08-26-2014, 10:08 AM
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Defense of veganism is fine, it's better than fine. I defend veganism all the time to omnivores. It's not just that OP said "some" vegans hate vegetarians; my understanding was that this person is vegan herself, and struggling with whether she wants to keep describing herself with a term that she perceives as having a lot of unwanted baggage attached to it.

To my eye, it's not that vegans are socially anxious and awkward; the vegans I meet seem as socially confident and accepting as anyone else I meet. It's that a lot of socially awkward people find that veganism suits them to an uncanny degree, and their veganism can serve as a screen for other issues, and they can sort of become the public face of veganism, to the consternation of people who love animals and vegan food but don't need that drama attached to them. The eating disorders connection needs no explanation. I know vegans with autism who adore animals, but other people give them the hives. Plus, some of them have such vivid sense of taste that what you or I would experience as umami tastes absolutely sickening to them. If you'd only date another vegan, that can become one excellent reason to be permanently single. If you can't stand to see people eating meat, that serves to explain why you take your lunch at your desk and not in the lunchroom. If you only want to socialize with other vegans but don't know any, that's a rational explanation for being completely isolated socially. If you're a perfectionist in other areas of your life and you become vegan, your veganism may become more about personal purity than it is about justice for nonhuman animals. And on and on. If you love to argue passionately about other things and you go vegan, you like to argue passionately about that.

As a rule, vegans don't bust on the vegetarians in their lives about what's on their plates. As a rule, vegans tend not to be the ones to bring it up at all, and as a rule, vegetarians don't bring it up to them by way of trying to justify their own different lines in the sand. The issue, I think, is almost entirely online. This board used to be rife with it, but it's been awhile since that was the case. Other boards, vegetarians are a distinctly lower form of life.

Understood. Again, I was merely trying to answer the OP's question.

I can certainly understand a negative association with veganism even if you're a vegan yourself. I've felt the sting of the vegan here on this board a long time ago. My thought was like the op's "why would I want to be a vegan if this is what they are like?". I was part of another community that merged with this board...the members here weren't amused with that and certainly weren't welcoming to vegetarians. I did have to take a step back and look at the big picture...why some people were less than welcoming and a couple were hostile, it wasn't fair to make a judgement about the whole board. Since then, it's been pretty cool to see vegans and vegetarians hang out together in relative peace. I've come and gone over the years (I'm not sure why my registration says 2006 because it was a few years before that) and probably will disappear again when I get tired of my self-righteous wisdom. LOL
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#18 Old 08-26-2014, 11:29 AM
 
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I've come across a few blogs and people on tumblr who although they don't necessarily hate vegetarians, show/showed a lot of superiority towards people who are vegetarians.
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#19 Old 08-26-2014, 01:45 PM
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I'm really glad that none of the vegans I know in real life hate vegetarians or omnis... I definitely feel that the internet gives some people a platform to be anonymous jerks and express themselves in ways they'd never do in real life.

Also I think many of the vegans I know are linked in to or like the effect of Compassion Over Killing, which comes off as a more positive outreach organization around here. They do things like hand out information and free dairy-free ice-cream sandwiches, they promote Meatless Mondays and work with restaurants to get vegetarian and vegan options added to menus. In general it's a more positive/constructive vibe that I think resonates well with the friends I have around here who are vegan- even though it's not a vegan group per say.

Also, what the heck is a "granola girl vegan?" Is this a stereotype I don't know about?
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#20 Old 08-26-2014, 01:50 PM
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In my experience some vegans are misanthropes. I wouldn't even be surprised if they hated themselves, never mind veggies and omnis.

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#21 Old 08-26-2014, 09:30 PM
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I've seen strong,strong disdain towards vegetarians from vegans and i find this to be really really wrong. Honestly,it's that stuff right there that was probably part of the reason i was turned off by veganism back in the day. I mean,it's obvious that will turn people off because people won't want to be like those crazy vegan sterotypes.
Why should it turn people off of veganism though? I get that in practice it probably does happen sometimes, but I don't think it's logical. To me veganism is all about compassion for animals. Some other vegan acting like a jerk has nothing to do with whether I'm willing to be vegan, because I'm not doing it for the sake of other vegans, I'm doing it for the animals.

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vegetarians don't really have a crazy reputation. Vegans do and that craziness tends to instantly repel people
I think most of the crazy reputation is made up. There is a difference between stereotype and reality, especially when so many people have never even met a vegan. We aren't any crazier than anyone else.

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Vegetarians imo,are making a big difference in things and are doing an amazing thing and should be encouraged. I do not understand why a lot of vegans hate them,i think if anything it'd be the opposite..Whenever i find someone is vegetarian,i get happy. I also think if the whole world was vegetarian factory farming wouldn't exist so again,i dont get the hate. I find vegetarians tend to come off as peaceful types,animal lovers,etc where vegans tend to come off as crazy extremists. While some of that i disagree with,the more i go down this path,the more i see it,too. I feel like i have to make sure people don't think i'm going to be like that which is a damn shame.I find the extreme ways some vegans can be,to in fact hurt the cause.
Okay, what hate and crazy extremism are you talking about? I've known a fair amount of vegans both online and in person and none of them have indicated that they had any hatred toward vegetarians. Nor have I ever seen them engage in any "crazy extremist" behaviors. I'm not saying crazy, extremist, vegetarian-hating vegans don't exist, but that's true of pretty much any category of people.

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For example,only dating vegans,forcing others to change their diet,and so on,and on. I think it's better to be an inspiration and to show people how awesome what your doing is vs coming off as a very small percentage of the population and cliqueish in an anti sort of way. I think we have to think,what really makes people turn away from veganism and make them judge us?
There is nothing crazy or extremist or mean about only wanting to date over vegans. Who we decide to date is a personal choice. As for forcing others to change their diet, I don't know what you mean.
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#22 Old 08-26-2014, 11:19 PM
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I feel like no one is reading anything beyond my original post. I disagree that vegetarian is the lesser of two evils. I think veganism is ideal but i do not think vegetarian is evil. And,people are assuming veggies know these other facts to make them vegan and are just ignoring that when i have said i am in fact an example of one person who did not.
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#23 Old 08-26-2014, 11:32 PM
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Why should it turn people off of veganism though? I get that in practice it probably does happen sometimes, but I don't think it's logical. To me veganism is all about compassion for animals. Some other vegan acting like a jerk has nothing to do with whether I'm willing to be vegan, because I'm not doing it for the sake of other vegans, I'm doing it for the animals.



I think most of the crazy reputation is made up. There is a difference between stereotype and reality, especially when so many people have never even met a vegan. We aren't any crazier than anyone else.



Okay, what hate and crazy extremism are you talking about? I've known a fair amount of vegans both online and in person and none of them have indicated that they had any hatred toward vegetarians. Nor have I ever seen them engage in any "crazy extremist" behaviors. I'm not saying crazy, extremist, vegetarian-hating vegans don't exist, but that's true of pretty much any category of people.



There is nothing crazy or extremist or mean about only wanting to date over vegans. Who we decide to date is a personal choice. As for forcing others to change their diet, I don't know what you mean.


Why should it turn them off? It's called psychology. It's called bad marketing. In a sense you could say everything is marketing. Package it up nice and it'll sell. If vegans look crazy,the vegan way of life,in fact,also looks crazy and makes meat eaters look legit. I think getting into people's head and putting yourself in their shoes,where they are at currently,is a far more efficient way to make change. i'm not looking to be part of some vegan anti this/that clique. i'm looking to make real and efficient change. Some things slow and halt progress. Being an example and showing things as natural and easy and trendy and sexy will inspire others to do it,too. Making something look extreme and vibrating at a negative energy will repel. This is obvious. Positivity begets positivity and negativity begets negativity. I do not think most vegans are crazy. I think only a small percentage are. And,also i don't meant crazy in just crazy. Crazy can be good. Crazy can get things done and shock the system. I'm talking about a hateful energy. And,some vegans are like that. A small percent sure. But,they hate on others who have superficial interests like fashion,and clubbing,and and fun things that are light. I understand their work can be draining but they act like they are above those things and i see nothing wrong with superficial joys. They are unappreciative and rude to people who want to help them. i've actually experienced this. I can name two here however,i do hesitate about doing so on here. But,i can. And,like wise,i've met vegans who are nice and positive and indulge in the frivolous and that makes them more relatable and likeable and makes people see,hey look how accessabile veganism is. Theres a certain female vegan blogger i have in mind i think of who is wonderful and sweet and doing an amazing job spreading the message and changing things in that way and bringing about real change.

Dating only other vegans being extreme,well i guess we will have to disagree on that. I think it's extreme but we all have the right to do what we want. My next bf will likely be a meat eater,but maybe i will inspire him by being me to cut down on meat consumption. and,what a wonderful thing that will be. I have inspired a good friend to transition to vegetarian. I did get passionate about my views because we can tell each other anything but i don't force anyone. They just get inspired.
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#24 Old 08-26-2014, 11:37 PM
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I'm really glad that none of the vegans I know in real life hate vegetarians or omnis... I definitely feel that the internet gives some people a platform to be anonymous jerks and express themselves in ways they'd never do in real life.

Also I think many of the vegans I know are linked in to or like the effect of Compassion Over Killing, which comes off as a more positive outreach organization around here. They do things like hand out information and free dairy-free ice-cream sandwiches, they promote Meatless Mondays and work with restaurants to get vegetarian and vegan options added to menus. In general it's a more positive/constructive vibe that I think resonates well with the friends I have around here who are vegan- even though it's not a vegan group per say.

Also, what the heck is a "granola girl vegan?" Is this a stereotype I don't know about?
This is true. I don't actually have any real life vegan friends this is just people i've worked with or online that i'm speaking of. i imagine in person is much different story. I like that idea of promoting meatless mondays and giving out dairy free ice cream sandwiches. A granola girl vegan is a girl who isn't very attractive and has bad style,doesn't wear makeup,and is kinda hippie like or anti this/that. Also,urban dictionary has a definition of it:http://www.urbandictionary.com/defin...granola%20girl
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#25 Old 08-26-2014, 11:42 PM
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Understood. Again, I was merely trying to answer the OP's question.

I can certainly understand a negative association with veganism even if you're a vegan yourself. I've felt the sting of the vegan here on this board a long time ago. My thought was like the op's "why would I want to be a vegan if this is what they are like?". I was part of another community that merged with this board...the members here weren't amused with that and certainly weren't welcoming to vegetarians. I did have to take a step back and look at the big picture...why some people were less than welcoming and a couple were hostile, it wasn't fair to make a judgement about the whole board. Since then, it's been pretty cool to see vegans and vegetarians hang out together in relative peace. I've come and gone over the years (I'm not sure why my registration says 2006 because it was a few years before that) and probably will disappear again when I get tired of my self-righteous wisdom. LOL


It actually wasn't so much of a conscious thought,just more of a natural repelling. Like,associating them with being extreme and thinking whats wrong with just being vegetarian. I feel the crazy vegans are what contributed to a negative stereotype in my head. They get so passionate and have a lot of anger. These last two months,i've felt that passion and anger. And,now,i'm trying to just see how do i project myself to others. I still want to be me. I want to be happy. It's a sensitive subject,it's no wonder there is so much passion,definitely but i don't want to lose myself in this battle.
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#26 Old 08-26-2014, 11:50 PM
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Defense of veganism is fine, it's better than fine. I defend veganism all the time to omnivores. It's not just that OP said "some" vegans hate vegetarians; my understanding was that this person is vegan herself, and struggling with whether she wants to keep describing herself with a term that she perceives as having a lot of unwanted baggage attached to it.

To my eye, it's not that vegans are socially anxious and awkward; the vegans I meet seem as socially confident and accepting as anyone else I meet. It's that a lot of socially awkward people find that veganism suits them to an uncanny degree, and their veganism can serve as a screen for other issues, and they can sort of become the public face of veganism, to the consternation of people who love animals and vegan food but don't need that drama attached to them. The eating disorders connection needs no explanation. I know vegans with autism who adore animals, but other people give them the hives. Plus, some of them have such vivid sense of taste that what you or I would experience as umami tastes absolutely sickening to them. If you'd only date another vegan, that can become one excellent reason to be permanently single. If you can't stand to see people eating meat, that serves to explain why you take your lunch at your desk and not in the lunchroom. If you only want to socialize with other vegans but don't know any, that's a rational explanation for being completely isolated socially. If you're a perfectionist in other areas of your life and you become vegan, your veganism may become more about personal purity than it is about justice for nonhuman animals. And on and on. If you love to argue passionately about other things and you go vegan, you like to argue passionately about that.

As a rule, vegans don't bust on the vegetarians in their lives about what's on their plates. As a rule, vegans tend not to be the ones to bring it up at all, and as a rule, vegetarians don't bring it up to them by way of trying to justify their own different lines in the sand. The issue, I think, is almost entirely online. This board used to be rife with it, but it's been awhile since that was the case. Other boards, vegetarians are a distinctly lower form of life.
As weird as this sounds,i almost think i'd prefer to date a non vegan.maybe it's because subconsciously,i'm looking to be a light. or,maybe it's because i haven't seen any vegan types i find attractive. I'm just looking to go about my life with a new reawakened interest in animal advocacy. Everyone is on a different path,and will guide us and inspire us in different ways. if i only dated vegans,i'd be limiting myself to a lot of amazing soul growth and i refuse to do that. one vegan vlogger guy said he only dates vegans because life is too short not to. I disagree. Life is too short to limit yourself from the amazing gift of soul growth. Your soul connections could very well be meat eater or vegetarian. Why block them out? I mean,i think what's meant to be will always find away regardless but i refuse to put up more walls and resistances to manifesting my desires and creating meaning in my life and being a light in the world. All i ask if that someone respect my beliefs.
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#27 Old 08-26-2014, 11:53 PM
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I can't answer as I don't hate vegetarians and I don't know any vegans IRL or online who hate vegetarians.

I appreciate the steps vegetarians are taking in saving some animals, much like an omni who cuts back on animal flesh/fluids. While vegetarians and omnis may not have a cruelty-free approach to their diets, I appreciate any animal saved.

I just try to live out my ethics and remember that I was once an omni and am responsible for untold death and suffering via meat and dairy consumption for most of my life. I will carry that guilt for the rest of my days.
Heal your guilt. You do NOT need to carry that guilt for the rest of your life nor is it healthy or beneficial to you,the animals,or others,or life.
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#28 Old 08-26-2014, 11:57 PM
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Well I've met a vegetarian that loves animals and ate a huge amount of dairy, but she doesn't seem to be the norm.

Also, as was pointed out the lives are longer...cruel long miserable lives.

That all said, giving up meat is a huge issue and nothing to poo poo about. A good deal of current vegans were vegetarian first, and meat eaters before that. (Something some of them forget sometimes). Personally, I rejoice in any all efforts to go plant based and there is no justification for rudeness on vegans parts when dealing with the rest of the world. Everyone has their own path, their own bottom line, their own tolerance for what they accept in their lives and around them. I get that and get that I might not fit into that world.

But like is said above, for ethical vegans the glass is half full. Vegetarians need to understand this when trying to justify their diet to them because there is no justification...cruelty is cruelty....so no need to scratch your head when they state their case against vegetarians or whine "why do they hate me"....it might be better and less cruel to be vegetarian, but it's not enough. I get that and vegetarians would be wise to not try to engage them in this...vegans would be wise to set the example and not be confrontational.

So while there may be a middle ground where we can get along in the world together without hate (I truly hope so), I'm still going to say for a vegan there is no middle ground....being vegan means being vegan...not 95% vegan with the occasional cheese or diary because that's not so bad or cruel as a meat eater. Being cruelty free means being vegan.

If the whole world was 95% vegan,would factory farming exist?
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#29 Old 08-26-2014, 11:59 PM
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Oh, there's a middle ground. It doesn't reflect what you believe and how you want to live, but that's no grounds for denying its existence. Depth of commitment is rarely the same between any two people. Food and habit exert different holds on all of us, and even people with similar beliefs vary as to how well they can sustain a lifestyle they experience as rigorous, demanding, and isolating.

The dairy and egg industries have many built-in cruelties, but compared to the beef and broiler industries they are far smaller. They keep their animals alive longer, but there are also far fewer of them. Billions of broilers vs millions of egg layers. Similar size difference between beef cattle and dairy cows. Giving up meat addresses a much larger animal welfare problem than does giving up dairy and eggs. And reducing dairy and eggs goes a long way to address the rest of the cruelty. Which I mention because I have yet to meet a vegetarian who eats massive quantities of eggs and dairy products. I'm sure there are some out there who do, but the vegs I know have cut back substantially on all animal products. If their habits were the norm, there would be no battery farms or factory dairies. It makes no sense to maintain there is no middle ground. Any consumer's decisions will either add to, or subtract from, demand for foods that come from animals. If your usage is far below average, you pull the average down.

This is a smart post and hits on some points i was trying to make.
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#30 Old 08-27-2014, 12:01 AM
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I think this pretty much sums it up on how ethical vegans feel. The dairy and egg industry is just as cruel, if not crueler than the flesh industry and vegetarians are part of the problem. There's no getting around that, there's no middle ground. Vegetarians need to understand that and not attempt to justify their diet to an ethical vegan because you will be shot down.

I admire ethical vegans and what they do. Sometimes they can be a bit judgmental (some of the worst haven't even been vegan that long) and forget that they weren't always vegan and they need to allow other people time and their own journey, but for the most part, I like how vegans set the example.

I wouldn't let a few haters make you brand "vegans hate vegetarians". Vegans disagree with the idea of vegetarianism, but they all don't hate.
Vegetarians are not part of the problem. Your wrong. I even heard recently it's actually meatless mondays that has been contributing the most to meat consumption going down so in a way,we should be thanking those people. Disagree with vegetarians all you want but they are certaintly not part of the problem.
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