why do some vegans hate vegetarians? - Page 3 - VeggieBoards
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#61 Old 08-28-2014, 02:46 AM
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Originally Posted by annabellevegan239 View Post
I don't think you need guilt to be better. Yes,guilt initially for something is is natural but then you heal it,let it all go,and just have empathy. I believe guilt tends to cause us to self sabotage things for ourselves and if we let it all go,we can be better. Better for ourselves,the animals,the world,and others,and really fly high.
I don't think that you're really understanding my previous post Annabelle and maybe you're hungup on the word 'guilt'? As I say, 'guilt' can be this:

Quote:
For others it's just a simple rememberance of something they did in the past that they rather wish they hadn't.
If that 'simple rememberence' helps me to know what to do in the future, I say that's good.

If that 'simple rememberence' helps me empathise with other people, I say that's good.

If that 'simple rememberence' helps remind me that my life (as with the lives of others) is not perfect, I say that's good.



So what I'm saying is that some 'guilt' can have a positive effect.
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#62 Old 08-28-2014, 05:57 AM
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To answer the OP's question.

Some people are very insecure and need a mechanism to feel superior to others. The holier-than-thou attitude of some vegans toward vegatarians is an extension of that need. In addition, the us vs. them mindset seems to be part of human nature.

This behavior is not limited to vegans, however.

Happiness is not the result of a mathematical equation comparing the good times and bad times someone has had. It is a state of mind.
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#63 Old 08-28-2014, 07:11 AM
 
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Originally Posted by annabellevegan239 View Post
Do you think factory farming would exist for dairy and eggs?
It exists now. Eggs are factory-farmed because it is more profitable than small-scale egg production. They are factory farmed in specialized egg-farms. Chickens raised for slaughter are factory farmed in specialized "broiler" farms. The chickens raised for slaughter aren't used for eggs. They are of a breed that is optimezed for fast growth to full size (young adulthood) and how they taste. The chickens raised for eggs are of breeds that are optimized for high egg production over a long period of time. The chickens raised for eggs are slaughtered when their egg production dwindles, and used as "soup" chickens acc to my understanding - but most chicken flesh comes from "broiler" chickens. If there was no longer a demand for broiler chickens, it seems to me egg farming would continue as it has been. Apparently both egg layers and broiler chickens are females. Males are just dumped, or ground up while alive, in all hatcheries, which are themselves factory-like places.

Dairy farms are s source of veal calves, but beef comes from steer-farms and dairy comes from dairy farms. Steers are castrated males. It seems to me that if there was no longer any demand for beef, dairy farms would continue as they have been.
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#64 Old 08-28-2014, 07:46 AM
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Oh, there's a middle ground. It doesn't reflect what you believe and how you want to live, but that's no grounds for denying its existence. Depth of commitment is rarely the same between any two people. Food and habit exert different holds on all of us, and even people with similar beliefs vary as to how well they can sustain a lifestyle they experience as rigorous, demanding, and isolating.

The dairy and egg industries have many built-in cruelties, but compared to the beef and broiler industries they are far smaller. They keep their animals alive longer, but there are also far fewer of them. Billions of broilers vs millions of egg layers. Similar size difference between beef cattle and dairy cows. Giving up meat addresses a much larger animal welfare problem than does giving up dairy and eggs. And reducing dairy and eggs goes a long way to address the rest of the cruelty. Which I mention because I have yet to meet a vegetarian who eats massive quantities of eggs and dairy products. I'm sure there are some out there who do, but the vegs I know have cut back substantially on all animal products. If their habits were the norm, there would be no battery farms or factory dairies. It makes no sense to maintain there is no middle ground. Any consumer's decisions will either add to, or subtract from, demand for foods that come from animals. If your usage is far below average, you pull the average down.
Since it's common knowledge that the vast majority of dairy cows end up as fast-food hamburgers, I'm not sure how you can justify separating dairy industry from beef and claim that it's less cruel. Or the egg industry from broilers since exactly half of the hatched layer chicks get sent down the grinder day one or two. And then the rest get turned into nuggets after laying for a short time.

The difficulty vegans have with vegetarians justifying their continued use of certain animal products as "less cruel" is that we don't buy that excuse. Dairy and eggs are not less cruel than beef or broilers. In fact, most activists claim that egg-layers are the most abused animal in the entire food industry, and beef cattle are the least.

If you want to continue to consume dairy and eggs, fine. They're legal and practical. But don't claim it's less cruel, because that's simply not true.
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#65 Old 08-28-2014, 08:28 AM
 
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If someone I knew cut out all meat and still ate dairy I'd be pleased they were at least cutting down on the amount of animal products they purchase.

And it could be a step towards being fully vegan like it was for me.

I feel strongly for animal rights and the dairy and egg industry are the same as the meat to me and even worse... but I think its a step in the right direction at least.. got to be better than people upping their animal products and cramming the freezer with meat etc
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#66 Old 08-28-2014, 08:58 AM
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Since it's common knowledge that the vast majority of dairy cows end up as fast-food hamburgers, I'm not sure how you can justify separating dairy industry from beef and claim that it's less cruel. Or the egg industry from broilers since exactly half of the hatched layer chicks get sent down the grinder day one or two. And then the rest get turned into nuggets after laying for a short time.

The difficulty vegans have with vegetarians justifying their continued use of certain animal products as "less cruel" is that we don't buy that excuse. Dairy and eggs are not less cruel than beef or broilers. In fact, most activists claim that egg-layers are the most abused animal in the entire food industry, and beef cattle are the least.

If you want to continue to consume dairy and eggs, fine. They're legal and practical. But don't claim it's less cruel, because that's simply not true.
I didn't claim the dairy and egg industries were less cruel, in fact I bent over backwards to acknowledge the cruelties. I said they involved far fewer animals, which means cutting out meat (if that's all you do) addresses the largest part of the cruelty toward cattle and chickens. And that cutting back on other animal products goes a long way to address the rest of it. Would you like to dispute either of those claims, which I actually did make?

Last edited by Joan Kennedy; 08-28-2014 at 09:22 AM.
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#67 Old 08-28-2014, 09:15 AM
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Don't start with me. It's clear you don't like me and are projecting your issues onto me. What an ignorant sarcastic response that was.
I wasn't being sarcastic and I don't dislike you.

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your not fooling me. i'm onto you.
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#68 Old 08-28-2014, 09:21 AM
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But, Joan, you aren't cutting out meat when you eat dairy, since dairy cows end up as meat anyway. You're just subjecting the dairy cows to a life of misery before they become hamburgers. And you aren't cutting out meat when you subject egg-laying hens to miserable lives in battery crates when they're doomed to become nuggets. Sure, you might not personally eat the hamburger or the chicken nuggets, but you've supported industries that make them. There are no retirement homes for dairy cows or chickens. They all die and become meat.

It is our choices that show what we truly are far more than our abilities. ~A. Dumbledore
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#69 Old 08-28-2014, 09:43 AM
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Well,to me that's not stereotyping. That's jackassery and sexism. Women should only wear makeup if they want to. Unforuntately,in the world we live in today,sexism is quite rampant since society is male dominated. I think that is another issue.
But you yourself stereotyped some vegan women as "granola girls" for not wearing make up and not being "attractive." That's not sexist?

I've been insulted by omnis with the "granola girl" insult, but NEVER did I think it would be allowed in the *vegan support forum* here. You *did* hurt my feelings, as this is the first time a veg*n has used that term that I've seen, unless in a joking fashion. The world is not nice to vegans, for the most part.

I've never blocked anyone's posts on any forum I've been on, but I'm extremely tempted to block yours.
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#70 Old 08-28-2014, 10:04 AM
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But, Joan, you aren't cutting out meat when you eat dairy, since dairy cows end up as meat anyway. You're just subjecting the dairy cows to a life of misery before they become hamburgers. And you aren't cutting out meat when you subject egg-laying hens to miserable lives in battery crates when they're doomed to become nuggets. Sure, you might not personally eat the hamburger or the chicken nuggets, but you've supported industries that make them. There are no retirement homes for dairy cows or chickens. They all die and become meat.
That's not really germane to the statements I made, which you've offered nothing to counter. Though I should have been clearer. By "cutting out meat" I meant "cutting meat out of your diet." And again, the beef ranching and broiler industries involve about 10 times as many animals as the dairy and egg-producing industries do. That might not matter to you, but the sheer number of animals involved does matter to me. The number of animals involved is specifically why I believe "cutting meat out of your diet," i.e., becoming vegetarian, goes a long way to reduce the amount of insult and injury visited upon nonhuman animals. And that becoming vegan does a little further than that, when measured against the number of animals affected. I make no excuse for the way I eat, not to you and not to anyone in my kitchen who understandably mistakes me for a vegan. Time has taught me what I can and can't sustain over the long haul, and you're welcome to think what you like.
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#71 Old 08-28-2014, 11:15 AM
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That's not really germane to the statements I made, which you've offered nothing to counter. Though I should have been clearer. By "cutting out meat" I meant "cutting meat out of your diet." And again, the beef ranching and broiler industries involve about 10 times as many animals as the dairy and egg-producing industries do. That might not matter to you, but the sheer number of animals involved does matter to me. The number of animals involved is specifically why I believe "cutting meat out of your diet," i.e., becoming vegetarian, goes a long way to reduce the amount of insult and injury visited upon nonhuman animals. And that becoming vegan does a little further than that, when measured against the number of animals affected. I make no excuse for the way I eat, not to you and not to anyone in my kitchen who understandably mistakes me for a vegan. Time has taught me what I can and can't sustain over the long haul, and you're welcome to think what you like.
If 100% of the animals in the food industry are destined to be some kind of meat, how does limiting your personal consumption to cheese and eggs help? While the number of animals in the egg and dairy industry may be lower than those of animals raised strictly for meat, if a lot of people were to change their diets to vegetarian, the egg and dairy industry would naturally grow to meet increased demand. More people becoming vegetarian would doom more animals to lives of battery cages and milking machines. I've often heard that the least cruel dish one can eat is a steak. And while I completely understand that you are an adult who chooses to be vegetarian, when you get on your soap box in the vegan support forum about how great it is that vegetarians are killing fewer animals than meat-eaters, I have to respond.

It is our choices that show what we truly are far more than our abilities. ~A. Dumbledore
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#72 Old 08-28-2014, 11:45 AM
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If 100% of the animals in the food industry are destined to be some kind of meat, how does limiting your personal consumption to cheese and eggs help? While the number of animals in the egg and dairy industry may be lower than those of animals raised strictly for meat, if a lot of people were to change their diets to vegetarian, the egg and dairy industry would naturally grow to meet increased demand. More people becoming vegetarian would doom more animals to lives of battery cages and milking machines. I've often heard that the least cruel dish one can eat is a steak. And while I completely understand that you are an adult who chooses to be vegetarian, when you get on your soap box in the vegan support forum about how great it is that vegetarians are killing fewer animals than meat-eaters, I have to respond.
Not my soap box, Poppy. Vegan Support is the forum the thread is on. I didn't put it here. This is where the discussion is being held, and I couldn't move it if I wanted to.

Would you be willing to share the information that leads you to think more vegetarians = an increase in dairy and egg production? That runs counter to my own experience, to everything I've observed, and to all I've read about current vegetarian behavior, especially with the recent influx in plant-based newcomers with cardiac issues. And higher dairy/egg consumption is not typical of vegetarians here on VB. The vegetarians I know eat mostly plant-based foods, and many eat only plant-based foods. But if you have evidence that vegetarians eat more dairy and egg than meat-eaters do, I'd appreciate the chance to review it.
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#73 Old 08-28-2014, 12:28 PM
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I am glad to know that you keep company with so many oh-so-close-to-vegan vegetarians, but I don't know a single vegetarian irl who does not quake at the thought of giving up cheese.

I'm not sure what it is that you don't understand about my post. If a large number of people were to switch from a meat-eating diet to a vegetarian diet, there would be a need for more vegetarian food, such as eggs and dairy (and bananas and kale) which the animal production industry would provide. They would build more hatcheries, more battery cages, more milking machines, etc. Yes, the demand for steak would decrease. But the number of animals sent down the grinder, stuck in battery cages, and allowed to suffer from infected udders would increase. The food industry is very efficient. When something becomes popular, like gluten-free, the market rushes to provide it.

The only way to ensure that fewer animals are impacted by human diets is to go vegan.

It is our choices that show what we truly are far more than our abilities. ~A. Dumbledore
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#74 Old 08-28-2014, 12:59 PM
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I am glad to know that you keep company with so many oh-so-close-to-vegan vegetarians, but I don't know a single vegetarian irl who does not quake at the thought of giving up cheese.

I'm not sure what it is that you don't understand about my post. If a large number of people were to switch from a meat-eating diet to a vegetarian diet, there would be a need for more vegetarian food, such as eggs and dairy (and bananas and kale) which the animal production industry would provide. They would build more hatcheries, more battery cages, more milking machines, etc. Yes, the demand for steak would decrease. But the number of animals sent down the grinder, stuck in battery cages, and allowed to suffer from infected udders would increase. The food industry is very efficient. When something becomes popular, like gluten-free, the market rushes to provide it.

The only way to ensure that fewer animals are impacted by human diets is to go vegan.
Your scenario doesn't hold water. If some lacto/ovo vegetarian writes about not being able to give up cheese, that's not the same thing as what you're describing. That's quite possibly someone who's down to cheese after having given up eggs and all or most other dairy. That's what it means to be down to just cheese. Cheese is a fraction of all dairy. Project that scenario onto a larger population, and you've got fewer infected udders, not more. And you're highly misinformed about baby chicks in animal agriculture. Far more female chicks are discarded on the broiler side than males on the egg-layer side. Most broiler producers cull the females and only grow the males, because "only the males put on enough meat, at sufficient speed, to make them economically viable."* Let that sink in, and what I'm saying will make more sense to you: More vegetarians means fewer broilers, which means fewer female chicks down the grinder. And again, about 10 times more broilers are hatched than egg-layers, so if culled chicks upset you a lot, you should be way more upset about the chicks on the broiler side because there are so many more of them.

Unless you have evidence to back it up, I must dispute your assumption that vegetarians as a rule consume more dairy and more eggs than they used to when they also ate meat. Until you tell me where that is coming from, I will continue not to understand why you keep saying that.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/a-...s-1238516.html

Last edited by Joan Kennedy; 08-28-2014 at 01:14 PM. Reason: add citation
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#75 Old 08-28-2014, 02:23 PM
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While I agree that companion animals and humans often have a special bond and pets often want to live with us, I also understand that the pet industry is not quite that innocent. There are millions of unwanted, abused, and bred animals that end up being put down or spending their lives on chains, or at a humane society, as food for another pet, homeless etc. Too many people buy animals because they are cute, only to discard or get rid of them later because they are too much work. There are as of yet few laws to protect pet animals as they are still seen as property, not living beings that are part of a family. And many pets, such as cats, require feeding them the byproducts of slaughter. When you add up how many pet cats are being fed the byproducts of farm animal slaughter daily, that is a lot of animal slaughter and more than likely untold suffering before those animals are slaughtered for another animal. Right now I have two neighbors that let their cats roam all over the place and while I adore those cats, they are killing the birds and squirrels that visit my yard, are choosing to use the side of my house for a litterbox, and are getting in to my garden. They have become my responsibility. Politely asking the neighbors to keep their cats confined to their own area often ends up resulting in defensiveness and hostility on their part. I also cycle around the neighborhood and there is a house that keeps an urban chicken coop. those chickens are confined to a caged area all day in the corner of the yard. More than likely they are kept for their eggs. To me I couldn't imagine a life confined to a caged area, whether I am sheltered or protected or not. Not able to forage, find mates, raise young. This is the reality for many animals, whether they realize it or not. They might not have the capacity to understand their reality versus what could be, but we do. I'm not going to lie that it is a gray area in some ways for me. All of us have to share our planet and live together in some way, people and animals. Dogs and cats and other "pets" have been around for thousands of years. How do we live with one another without someone having to sacrifice their own needs and desires?
I am absolutely against breeding and think much reform is needed in animal industry. I've seen a lot of things that have made me sad about how people treat their animals but i don't think it's the taking care of an animal that is wrong. I think it's those people and major reform is needed along with empathy from those people and education. Do I think changes could/need to be made? Yes,but there's many loving people and their relationship to their animals i don't think is wrong in the slightest bit. I don't think it's the concept of having a kitty or a puppy. I think it's the majorly bogus way some people are when they adopt or take in an animal. They don't see those animals as more then like a toy imo. Luckily,i see less and less of that in this day and age. I remember in high school,it broke my heart that a h.s friend kept her dog in a cage in the basement and only let it out sometimes. That's just so wrong to me. I couldn't even think about it too much or it'd be make too sad.
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#76 Old 08-28-2014, 02:28 PM
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I don't think that you're really understanding my previous post Annabelle and maybe you're hungup on the word 'guilt'? As I say, 'guilt' can be this:



If that 'simple rememberence' helps me to know what to do in the future, I say that's good.

If that 'simple rememberence' helps me empathise with other people, I say that's good.

If that 'simple rememberence' helps remind me that my life (as with the lives of others) is not perfect, I say that's good.



So what I'm saying is that some 'guilt' can have a positive effect.
That's not guilt. That's memory. Guilt and memory are not the same thing. Maybe we have different definitons of guilt to me guilt is defined as having a bad feeling likened to shame. It's the lowest way one can feel. When you heal,you are neutral to something. You no longer feel that bad feeling. You can remember and feel at ease. Which is great,because to not feel at ease causes many problems. It's not saying your wrongs are ok,it's just you've let go of that bad feeling. That is healthy and allows one to move forward.
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#77 Old 08-28-2014, 02:34 PM
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It exists now. Eggs are factory-farmed because it is more profitable than small-scale egg production. They are factory farmed in specialized egg-farms. Chickens raised for slaughter are factory farmed in specialized "broiler" farms. The chickens raised for slaughter aren't used for eggs. They are of a breed that is optimezed for fast growth to full size (young adulthood) and how they taste. The chickens raised for eggs are of breeds that are optimized for high egg production over a long period of time. The chickens raised for eggs are slaughtered when their egg production dwindles, and used as "soup" chickens acc to my understanding - but most chicken flesh comes from "broiler" chickens. If there was no longer a demand for broiler chickens, it seems to me egg farming would continue as it has been. Apparently both egg layers and broiler chickens are females. Males are just dumped, or ground up while alive, in all hatcheries, which are themselves factory-like places.

Dairy farms are s source of veal calves, but beef comes from steer-farms and dairy comes from dairy farms. Steers are castrated males. It seems to me that if there was no longer any demand for beef, dairy farms would continue as they have been.
From what i understand from some posts on here that have not been negative nancy's throwing flames but from those who just are actually wanting to explain how they view things,along with my own reflecting:

-Some vegans are angry because they think vegetarians know and are more aware and so then why not be vegan.
-In a large sense,what you put your dollars towards,you support. So,in a large sense,if you buy eggs from a grocery store or cheese,you are unfortunately,supporting factory farming.

Therefore,even if you ARE making a difference by being vegetarian,if you know better about factory farming,then you should thus refrain from buying those eggs,cheese,etc

unless,depending on your views,you buy it from a small humane farm where factory farming doesn't exist
which benefits too because you support small business.

I am still learning,too.

However,i still claim,some vegetarians really do not have their click in their head about cheese&eggs applying to factory farming and after making their decison may not have gotten overly invested in animal rights.

Am i making sense to anyone,here? Not that it matters,just feel like everyone is against me here...
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#78 Old 08-28-2014, 02:38 PM
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If someone I knew cut out all meat and still ate dairy I'd be pleased they were at least cutting down on the amount of animal products they purchase.

And it could be a step towards being fully vegan like it was for me.

I feel strongly for animal rights and the dairy and egg industry are the same as the meat to me and even worse... but I think its a step in the right direction at least.. got to be better than people upping their animal products and cramming the freezer with meat etc
I completely support and LOVE vegetarians and am going to encourage this whenever i can because it's a huge step imo. I also feel it's easier to convince someone to become vegetarian. When i became vegan,i started to think cheese and eggs were the same as meat,too.
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#79 Old 08-28-2014, 02:50 PM
 
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I completely support and LOVE vegetarians and am going to encourage this whenever i can because it's a huge step imo. I also feel it's easier to convince someone to become vegetarian. When i became vegan,i started to think cheese and eggs were the same as meat,too.
I can see that, I know my friends and family would be more receptive of going vegetarian than going straight into vegan. For most people just changing to soya milk is a big change to them. I just encourage as many people to make animal free choices whatever they are because it brings them one step closer to being completely animal free. Vegan is the goal though. I think morally it has to be.
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#80 Old 08-28-2014, 02:54 PM
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But you yourself stereotyped some vegan women as "granola girls" for not wearing make up and not being "attractive." That's not sexist?

I've been insulted by omnis with the "granola girl" insult, but NEVER did I think it would be allowed in the *vegan support forum* here. You *did* hurt my feelings, as this is the first time a veg*n has used that term that I've seen, unless in a joking fashion. The world is not nice to vegans, for the most part.

I've never blocked anyone's posts on any forum I've been on, but I'm extremely tempted to block yours.
Yes,i did stereotype. At least i'm real enough of a person to admit i stereotype. I don't care either. I didn't say they were less attractive for not wearing makeup. I said that's an aspect that goes with the granola girl stereotype. I said,i find some granola girl types to be unattractive. That's called having a personal opinion. I hurt your feelings because you are offended which just says what you feel about yourself. Your mad at me,but your really mad at yourself. Look within yourself. Why are you really offended? Did i offend you personally? I don't even know you. I'm guessing i offended you because you feel insecure about yourself and have some issues with this. Because,guess what? I deal with negative stereotypes all the time in my daily life and it doesn't offend me. But,everything that does offend me,says something about an issue i have to work on in myself. You want to block me go ahead. There's a member on here i'm thinking about blocking myself. I'm not going to cater to making people feel better that don't understand me because last time i did that on a forum,i got bullied. You can hold onto your wound and block out what your saying or you can try to be an open person and see through what i'm saying. If you'd like,i'd even be happy to discuss this via pm with you. I don't like people hurting. But,i also don't like being manipulated to be a martyr when i'm not. I'm an imperfect person,yes,but i'm not a bad person. I'm actually sensitive to others but i don't conform my views to make other people feel better. This isn't about me. This is about you. You are treating me like my post should be banned. Why? Did i insult one person in this thread? Or,did i say a negative opinion on MY perception of a certain stereotype. I think no makeup is beautiful. But,people seem to keep ignoring that. They want to zoom in one aspect of what i've said,and twist and delude the essence of my message. Well,that's what pain and anger does. It deludes the truth. If you honestly want to work this out,i'm more then open. Your choice. I did offer. But,i'm not going to have my self esteem trampled because other people want to twist what i say and take it personally.

A random example:I used to get offended by rape jokes. Then,i kept seeing them all the time. I then decided maybe i need to stop being offended by them so i can stop seeing them all the time and giving my power away to those people who make them. So,just like that,i stopped being offended by them. Guess what? I never see them anymore since then. Do i agree with rape jokes or like them? No. But,if i did see one,it's not going to tear me up inside. And,yes,you guessed it,i have been sexually assaulted before. However,i worked through my issues because my happiness is important to me. Sorry if this isn't the best example. It's the first one that popped in my head. But,i do think it relates.

You deserve to feel good. Not to let someone you don't even know on a forum make you feel bad for a comment that wasn't in the slightest in any way,shape,or form directed at you. If a person made a comment like what i made in a magazine,would it hurt you? If not,then why does it here?

The reason i'm even posting this long of a message to you,is because i sense it's not a waste of time,and that you may have a nice energy. So,i hope you try and see this for what it is. I don't want you feeling bad. But,i also don't want to feel bad.
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#81 Old 08-28-2014, 03:01 PM
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I am glad to know that you keep company with so many oh-so-close-to-vegan vegetarians, but I don't know a single vegetarian irl who does not quake at the thought of giving up cheese.

I'm not sure what it is that you don't understand about my post. If a large number of people were to switch from a meat-eating diet to a vegetarian diet, there would be a need for more vegetarian food, such as eggs and dairy (and bananas and kale) which the animal production industry would provide. They would build more hatcheries, more battery cages, more milking machines, etc. Yes, the demand for steak would decrease. But the number of animals sent down the grinder, stuck in battery cages, and allowed to suffer from infected udders would increase. The food industry is very efficient. When something becomes popular, like gluten-free, the market rushes to provide it.

The only way to ensure that fewer animals are impacted by human diets is to go vegan.
I see what your saying but wouldn't the whole world giving up meat,likely spawn more empathy for animals and reform in the farming industry? Maybe we just have different views of the world but it doesn't resonate with me that a whole world vegetarian wouldn't drastically change the cheese and dairy industry as well. Like,i just can't picture that at all. In my mind,a vegetarian world,would be much different and more humane farms and for example,baby male chicks wouldn't be ground alive in a vegetarian world. I mean,most people who are vegetarian regardless of reason,have animals in the back of their mind,and i don't think a vegetarian world would for example ground chickens alive or do other cruel things alive. I just empathy would be kicked in more.

I also am one to appreciate steps and the little progresses.
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#82 Old 08-28-2014, 03:18 PM
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That's not guilt. That's memory. Guilt and memory are not the same thing. Maybe we have different definitons of guilt to me guilt is defined as having a bad feeling likened to shame.
To me there are various shades of guilt, from seriously heavy guilt to something which has slightly more 'weight' than a memory. I don't see the latter as being a problem. In fact as I've already said, it can be beneficial, for example, providing me with a reminder that I'm not perfect (a reminder that we vegans can sometimes need).

I may be wrong but it seems to me that you're looking at guilt in stark black and white terms and for you guilt, even if lightly felt, will still be 'a bad thing'. Well if you do hold this belief so strongly, there's no point in me trying to convince you otherwise. We may disagree but the world will still be turning for both of us tomorrow.

Cheers

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Last edited by leedsveg; 08-28-2014 at 03:31 PM.
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#83 Old 08-28-2014, 03:20 PM
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Your scenario doesn't hold water. If some lacto/ovo vegetarian writes about not being able to give up cheese, that's not the same thing as what you're describing. That's quite possibly someone who's down to cheese after having given up eggs and all or most other dairy. That's what it means to be down to just cheese. Cheese is a fraction of all dairy. Project that scenario onto a larger population, and you've got fewer infected udders, not more. And you're highly misinformed about baby chicks in animal agriculture. Far more female chicks are discarded on the broiler side than males on the egg-layer side. Most broiler producers cull the females and only grow the males, because "only the males put on enough meat, at sufficient speed, to make them economically viable."* Let that sink in, and what I'm saying will make more sense to you: More vegetarians means fewer broilers, which means fewer female chicks down the grinder. And again, about 10 times more broilers are hatched than egg-layers, so if culled chicks upset you a lot, you should be way more upset about the chicks on the broiler side because there are so many more of them.

Unless you have evidence to back it up, I must dispute your assumption that vegetarians as a rule consume more dairy and more eggs than they used to when they also ate meat. Until you tell me where that is coming from, I will continue not to understand why you keep saying that.



http://www.independent.co.uk/news/a-...s-1238516.html
I stick to my assertion that the vegetarians I know irl can't imagine life without cheese. They use it as THE excuse not to go vegan. And no, they haven't given up everything else and only eat a precious piece of brie at Christmas. They eat a vegetarian diet because they are vegetarians and that includes eggs and dairy. I don't know a single vegetarian who is vegan except for cheese.


Speaking of cheese, 40% of all US milk is turned into cheese so that's a pretty big fraction. 32% is consumed as milk, the remaining going to make things like butter and yogurt.

http://www.farmersfeedus.org/wi/dairy/1

And broilers are usually grown in mixed-sex flocks. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broiler Most of what I can find on chicken culling refers to the 200 million male chicks that are culled from the egg-laying industry, not female broiler chicks. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but it certainly doesn't happen in the numbers you state.

When most people go vegetarian, they choose things like grilled cheese, veggie sandwiches (often with cheese and/or mayo), veggie burgers (usually not vegan), quiche, veggie lasagna, etc. While they remove meat from their diets, they substitute other vegetarian products in place of meat. Sadly, dairy and eggs are considered to be vegetarian. Does every single vegetarian eat more eggs and dairy once they adopt a vegetarian diet? I have no idea. But I certainly don't think it's unlikely based on the substitutes they are most likely to choose.

It is our choices that show what we truly are far more than our abilities. ~A. Dumbledore
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#84 Old 08-28-2014, 03:32 PM
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So I decided to come back and this is what goes on.... Well I guess I can give my opinion as a vegan. Although I don't think "Hate" fits. You see as an ethical vegan if I meet an ethical vegetarian I will often ask why they have not given up dairy or eggs. The response I mostly get (which does not apply to all vegetarians) is "Hahahaha man I could never give up cheese", and that is typically it. I'm like "You are aware of what goes on in the meat industry but what about the dairy, and egg?". Then they often don't look me in the eye get shifty and annoyed like a meat eater when questioning them on meat. And I don't ask this in a hostile way. Just a friendly curious manner. It's weird to me personally because I went from Omni to stone cold vegan in a day. Once I saw footage and video of these industries it wasn't a question of "willpower". I didn't want the food. I do understand not everyone eats veg*n for ethical reasons though. It can just be frustrating when someone is an ethical vegetarian with no desire to go vegan.

And lets say all vegans are egotistical *******s. I still would of turned to a vegan diet because I felt it was right for the animals. Not shy away because others in the group act like idiots. But I still try to look on the bright side. Whether vegetarian, pescetarian, or simply cutting out more meat. I may be a no middle ground sort of guy but you are still helping in your own way and I will give a thunbs up but always let you know I think you should go all the way if you are doing this for ethical reasons. I'd rather have you help cut down on the consumption of animal products(whatever they may be) than have you not cut down at all.

My girlfriend is an Omni. I don't try to force her but if she ever has questions I am their to answer.

I do dislike when vegans automatically act hostile. Their is no point to that and I feel it doesn't help. I'd rather be friendly and show if someone ever wants to learn about veg*nism I am here to give a warm welcome and a helping hand.

These are just my opinions
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#85 Old 08-28-2014, 03:56 PM
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Does every single vegetarian eat more eggs and dairy once they adopt a vegetarian diet? I have no idea. But I certainly don't think it's unlikely based on the substitutes they are most likely to choose.
It's not just that you have no idea what every single vegetarian does, you have no idea what the average vegetarian does. Please stop writing as if you knew what substitutes for meat vegetarians are most likely to choose.

And yes, most information you'll find online about culled chicks concentrates on male chicks of egg-layer specialty breeds. Here's the truth: female broilers are usually culled soon after hatching. They keep some as layers, and they keep some to raise to 4-to-5-week size, and sell them as "Rock Cornish hens." They are the same breed as the male broilers, but they are pullets, slaughtered earlier and smaller. There is of course a market for Rock Cornish hens, but it's a smaller market that peaks around holidays. Most female broiler chicks are culled.

Last edited by Joan Kennedy; 08-28-2014 at 04:18 PM. Reason: clarification
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#86 Old 08-28-2014, 04:13 PM
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I stick to my assertion that the vegetarians I know irl can't imagine life without cheese. They use it as THE excuse not to go vegan. And no, they haven't given up everything else and only eat a precious piece of brie at Christmas. They eat a vegetarian diet because they are vegetarians and that includes eggs and dairy. I don't know a single vegetarian who is vegan except for cheese.


Speaking of cheese, 40% of all US milk is turned into cheese so that's a pretty big fraction. 32% is consumed as milk, the remaining going to make things like butter and yogurt.

http://www.farmersfeedus.org/wi/dairy/1

And broilers are usually grown in mixed-sex flocks. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broiler Most of what I can find on chicken culling refers to the 200 million male chicks that are culled from the egg-laying industry, not female broiler chicks. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but it certainly doesn't happen in the numbers you state.

When most people go vegetarian, they choose things like grilled cheese, veggie sandwiches (often with cheese and/or mayo), veggie burgers (usually not vegan), quiche, veggie lasagna, etc. While they remove meat from their diets, they substitute other vegetarian products in place of meat. Sadly, dairy and eggs are considered to be vegetarian. Does every single vegetarian eat more eggs and dairy once they adopt a vegetarian diet? I have no idea. But I certainly don't think it's unlikely based on the substitutes they are most likely to choose.
This is true about me as a vegetarian. I pretty much subbed out all meat for cheese. Well,i never ate a lot of meat before that,but yeah. I thought cheese was how i'd get my primary protein and calcium. I just recently found out most vegetarian burgers arent vegan which is weird.i wonder why that is. Since becoming vegan,i havent sought out fake cheeses or meats at all for some reason and only had a vegan cheese burger once and it was from when i bought it as a vegetarian.
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#87 Old 08-28-2014, 04:15 PM
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I really do believe most people don't know the point in giving up eggs&dairy. Meat is obvious to most people but i think eggs&dairy people are more oblivious and in the dark about.
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#88 Old 08-28-2014, 04:16 PM
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why do some vegans hate vegetarians?

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It's not just that you have no idea what every single vegetarian does, you have no idea what the average vegetarian does. Please stop writing as if you knew what substitutes for meat vegetarians are most likely to choose.

I am, in fact, an expert in the field as I used to be one!


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It is our choices that show what we truly are far more than our abilities. ~A. Dumbledore

Last edited by Poppy; 08-28-2014 at 04:39 PM.
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#89 Old 08-28-2014, 04:29 PM
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I am, in fact, an expert in the field as I used to he one!
We all know what we ourselves used to do. That doesn't make us experts. I have to think you understand the importance of sample size and shifting demographics. As I've tried to stress, a good number of new vegetarians are seeking dietary solutions for cardiac issues. Plant-based diets, whole foods, restricted oil, etc. Nobody who quits meat for health reasons thinks cheese and eggs are a healthful alternative.
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#90 Old 08-28-2014, 04:58 PM
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I've seen strong,strong disdain towards vegetarians from vegans and i find this to be really really wrong. Honestly,it's that stuff right there that was probably part of the reason i was turned off by veganism back in the day. I mean,it's obvious that will turn people off because people won't want to be like those crazy vegan sterotypes. vegetarians don't really have a crazy reputation. Vegans do and that craziness tends to instantly repel people Vegetarians imo,are making a big difference in things and are doing an amazing thing and should be encouraged. I do not understand why a lot of vegans hate them,i think if anything it'd be the opposite..Whenever i find someone is vegetarian,i get happy. I also think if the whole world was vegetarian factory farming wouldn't exist so again,i dont get the hate. I find vegetarians tend to come off as peaceful types,animal lovers,etc where vegans tend to come off as crazy extremists. While some of that i disagree with,the more i go down this path,the more i see it,too. I feel like i have to make sure people don't think i'm going to be like that which is a damn shame.I find the extreme ways some vegans can be,to in fact hurt the cause.

For example,only dating vegans,forcing others to change their diet,and so on,and on. I think it's better to be an inspiration and to show people how awesome what your doing is vs coming off as a very small percentage of the population and cliqueish in an anti sort of way. I think we have to think,what really makes people turn away from veganism and make them judge us?

I personally refuse to be a granola girl vegan who only dates vegans and has only vegan friends and shouts at people for not being vegan. I will be me,inspire others by just being,and utilize how can one make veganism mainstream? I almost think some extreme vegans don't want the world to be vegan and would rather hang in their clique. I had thought about joining a vegan meetup myself possibly,but now i don't know. Maybe it's not needed. Maybe i'm better off exploring other interests. That might be better psychological sunshine for me and enable me to spread the message better.
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I'm really confused. All i know is is you seem extremely angry and i didn't insult anyone in this thread. I did tell one person i believe they are wrong which is my opinion. However,after some time,i'm starting to see things differently actually. You seem to be criticizing me for some reason and i have no idea what I did wrong so i'm not even going to acknowledge the insults..i'm obviously calm while you are obviously not so that speaks volumes.
How do you not see how your post, followed by your description, and scorn, of "granola girl vegan" is not insulting?
I'm with Ledboots here. First off, you admit to not really knowing many vegans yet you pick a typical stereotype that omnivores use.
I don't disparage vegetarians, or omnis who at least keep open minded and give a care. Any effort is step ahead. But I'm also a "granola woman", and I would choose a vegan for a relationship.
Stereotyping is about picking out actions that stand out to characterize an entire group of people whether related to their commonality or not.
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