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#31 Old 08-27-2014, 12:22 AM
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Originally Posted by annabellevegan239 View Post
Heal your guilt. You do NOT need to carry that guilt for the rest of your life nor is it healthy or beneficial to you,the animals,or others,or life.
I think I have to slightly disagree here abv. I think there's guilt and guilt. Some people can be eaten up by guilt and it's a terrible thing. For others it's just a simple rememberance of something they did in the past that they rather wish they hadn't. I put myself in the latter camp. No ongoing turmoil for me. If we totally repress what we've done in the past then I think there's a danger that we can start thinking of omnis as "evil monsters" and lose empathy for them. I can't see anything beneficial in that, quite the opposite.

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Last edited by leedsveg; 08-27-2014 at 12:25 AM.
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#32 Old 08-27-2014, 12:39 AM
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This is true. I don't actually have any real life vegan friends this is just people i've worked with or online that i'm speaking of. i imagine in person is much different story. I like that idea of promoting meatless mondays and giving out dairy free ice cream sandwiches. A granola girl vegan is a girl who isn't very attractive and has bad style,doesn't wear makeup,and is kinda hippie like or anti this/that. Also,urban dictionary has a definition of it:http://www.urbandictionary.com/defin...granola%20girl
Well, I think that insulting people by name-calling is rude! Call me a "granola girl vegan", hippie, and say I'm hurting the cause if you want, but realize that it is *you* who is being hurtful, rude, and prejudiced in this thread, not this vegan. Bad style!? No makeup!? Who cares?! You'd probably hate my ugly plastic shoes, too.

I've been vegan for a decade now, and have not to my knowledge judged anyone for being vegetarian. Neither have my son and husband, also vegans. My daughter is an omni, and we don't judge her, either.

I believe i read in another thread that you are mostly a new vegan with some vegetarian "slip ups"? So don't insult vegans for your guilt or confusion. We get insulted enough by omnis, thank you very much.

Personally, as an RN, this vegan discourages those with eating disordered pasts to go vegan. I think lacto-ovo is much safer in that case.

I celebrate people who begin Meatless Monday, or vegan before 6pm, or give up pork, or whatever step kills fewer animals.

This thread is very sad. I will go away from it now.

Edit: should this thread be in the vegan "support" area of the forum?

Last edited by LedBoots; 08-27-2014 at 12:47 AM.
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#33 Old 08-27-2014, 03:18 AM
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A granola girl vegan is a girl who isn't very attractive and has bad style,doesn't wear makeup,and is kinda hippie like or anti this/that. Also,urban dictionary has a definition of it:http://www.urbandictionary.com/defin...granola%20girl
Sounds like my kind of people. Not sure why you felt the need to throw in the "isn't very attractive" bit. Attractive is subjective, so it comes off like you're insulting hippie-ish people who aren't into style and makeup for no reason.
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#34 Old 08-27-2014, 04:22 AM
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Wow, I didn't look much at this thread til now. I am not a vegetarian hater. I get frustrated sometimes with omnis and vegetarians, especially when they feel the need to attack me as extreme, not because they aren't "pure vegan". But what makes me most upset is that granola girl thing. I don't wear makeup and never have in my 42 years other than a few dance performances many years ago and my sisters wedding in 1995 (by the way I look very young for my age and I attribute it to not wearing makeup among other things). I am not into fashion and being stylish but I do dress decently and clean. Hope this doesn't mean I have bad style and am unattractive. :/
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#35 Old 08-27-2014, 06:06 AM
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I might not be vegan, or a girl, but I am a granola woman who's allergic to fashion. Urban Dictionary nailed it except the voting for Nader part. I even had tofu for breakfast yesterday, and usually keep a bike worth far more than the car it's strapped to.
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#36 Old 08-27-2014, 07:56 AM
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Originally Posted by annabellevegan239 View Post
Vegetarians are not part of the problem. Your wrong. I even heard recently it's actually meatless mondays that has been contributing the most to meat consumption going down so in a way,we should be thanking those people. Disagree with vegetarians all you want but they are certaintly not part of the problem.
Again, I was just trying to answer your question and get inside the mindset of those types of vegans you don't want to become. For a vegan such as this...meatless Mondays, vegetarians, plant-based eating is all contributing to animal cruelty. It lessens it, and yes if people ate 95% vegan factory farms would diminish and disappear...but that would leave 5% cruelty and cruelty is cruelty. If vegans eat cheese and eggs they are indeed part of the problem in their eyes....certainly people that eat nothing but meat are worse and part of the bigger problem, but vegetarians are included in that problem...there's no black and white....no "some cruelty is o.k. and eggs and cheese even in small amounts isn't".

When I was the 95% vegan, I was told all of this....mostly on this board here.

That said, as I've said before I pretty much agree with you, that I applaud every effort plant based/veg*n eating knowing it's making the world a better place. I encourage my friends to do meatless Mondays.

I also have a lot to learn myself. Three years ago (before the documentary) I went to Sea World which is close to me and had a good time. Of course, I was told about the cruelty, but in a good way and I appreciate that. I'm always open to learn new things. Gentle education and seeing vegans eat healthy, get healthy, and stay health is what's attractive. In your face haters aren't.

Your type of veganism is so much more attractive than the haters.

Last edited by Tweety; 08-27-2014 at 07:58 AM.
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#37 Old 08-27-2014, 08:21 AM
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As a rule, vegans tend not to be the ones to bring it up at all, and as a rule, vegetarians don't bring it up to them by way of trying to justify their own different lines in the sand. The issue, I think, is almost entirely online. This board used to be rife with it, but it's been awhile since that was the case. Other boards, vegetarians are a distinctly lower form of life.
God, so true. This used to be a hugely common debate here. It's really gotten better here in this regard IMO and I've also seen that on other boards vegetarians are the lower form of life, so it's nice that it's not the same here.

My opinion has pretty much always been that there are meat eaters I adore, vegetarians I adore, vegans I adore and then there are folks in each group I can't handle because they're rude, lame or just in general no fun to be around. People are people.

Just like you shouldn't judge people on looks, I don't think you should judge diet choices. Debating diet choices is one thing, and yeah, I'll do that, but I'd never pick a friend, mate or what have you based on diet choices.

I think diet / lifestyle choices do help make someone who they are, but there are so many other things that make someone who they are.

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#38 Old 08-27-2014, 09:34 AM
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It lessens it, and yes if people ate 95% vegan factory farms would diminish and disappear...but that would leave 5% cruelty and cruelty is cruelty. If vegans eat cheese and eggs they are indeed part of the problem in their eyes....certainly people that eat nothing but meat are worse and part of the bigger problem, but vegetarians are included in that problem...there's no black and white....no "some cruelty is o.k. and eggs and cheese even in small amounts isn't".
This is a very interesting question to me, what life would be like for the remaining food animals if our culture got to the point of following diets that were 100 percent vegetarian and 95 percent vegan. This is what I think it would be like:

I have no doubt that if we got that far and no farther, it would profoundly alter how animals are bred and kept, to a state more like the way it was before animal agriculture was such an assembly-line, concentrated process, only with some scientific advances that helped instead of hurting the animals. Egg-layers would all be pastured, and a large number of them would be pets. If egg/cheese consumption was that low, milk cows wouldn't have to keep calving, and the ones that did calve would be able to feed their own calves. (Milk cows wouldn't have to calve today, except that the alternative is expensive.) Chickens would be kept by the dozens or the pastured hundreds, not by the battery houses crammed with 50,000 in stacked cages. The genders of future egg-layers would be controlled at the hatcheries with temperature manipulation in the egg, or by pre-sorting the sperm before insemination. Cows and chickens could pretty much live out their natural lifespans once they were no longer producing, providing manure to fertilize crops while alive, and blood/bone meal once they had died. The meat from the expired animals would just about supply the demand for pet food. I completely understand and respect that any use of animals for human gain is unacceptable to vegans. People can disagree about this. My heartburn about animal use is more the way it's done than the fact that it's done. But with a vegetarian population that followed 95 percent vegan diets, cruelty would not mean what it means now to the individual animals involved. Motivated watchdog-groups would make sure of that, and a 100-percent vegetarian public would demand it. Some of my numbers might be far off the mark, but the stress on the food animals in use would in any case be profoundly eased from what they endure under present conditions.
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#39 Old 08-27-2014, 10:30 AM
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A granola girl vegan is a girl who isn't very attractive and has bad style,doesn't wear makeup,and is kinda hippie like or anti this/that. Also,urban dictionary has a definition of it:http://www.urbandictionary.com/defin...granola%20girl
So it's a stereotype that negatively judges women based in part on on how "attractive" they are, their style, and whether or not they wear makeup?
That's really offensive. I'd reconsider your use of the term, and do some reading (there are lots of online articles) about why stereotypes- negative and positive- are problematic and harmful both to those they're about and the people accepting and using them as figures of speech.
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#40 Old 08-27-2014, 02:11 PM
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Well, I think that insulting people by name-calling is rude! Call me a "granola girl vegan", hippie, and say I'm hurting the cause if you want, but realize that it is *you* who is being hurtful, rude, and prejudiced in this thread, not this vegan. Bad style!? No makeup!? Who cares?! You'd probably hate my ugly plastic shoes, too.

I've been vegan for a decade now, and have not to my knowledge judged anyone for being vegetarian. Neither have my son and husband, also vegans. My daughter is an omni, and we don't judge her, either.

I believe i read in another thread that you are mostly a new vegan with some vegetarian "slip ups"? So don't insult vegans for your guilt or confusion. We get insulted enough by omnis, thank you very much.

Personally, as an RN, this vegan discourages those with eating disordered pasts to go vegan. I think lacto-ovo is much safer in that case.

I celebrate people who begin Meatless Monday, or vegan before 6pm, or give up pork, or whatever step kills fewer animals.

This thread is very sad. I will go away from it now.

Edit: should this thread be in the vegan "support" area of the forum?
I'm really confused. All i know is is you seem extremely angry and i didn't insult anyone in this thread. I did tell one person i believe they are wrong which is my opinion. However,after some time,i'm starting to see things differently actually. You seem to be criticizing me for some reason and i have no idea what I did wrong so i'm not even going to acknowledge the insults..i'm obviously calm while you are obviously not so that speaks volumes.
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#41 Old 08-27-2014, 02:16 PM
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Again, I was just trying to answer your question and get inside the mindset of those types of vegans you don't want to become. For a vegan such as this...meatless Mondays, vegetarians, plant-based eating is all contributing to animal cruelty. It lessens it, and yes if people ate 95% vegan factory farms would diminish and disappear...but that would leave 5% cruelty and cruelty is cruelty. If vegans eat cheese and eggs they are indeed part of the problem in their eyes....certainly people that eat nothing but meat are worse and part of the bigger problem, but vegetarians are included in that problem...there's no black and white....no "some cruelty is o.k. and eggs and cheese even in small amounts isn't".

When I was the 95% vegan, I was told all of this....mostly on this board here.

That said, as I've said before I pretty much agree with you, that I applaud every effort plant based/veg*n eating knowing it's making the world a better place. I encourage my friends to do meatless Mondays.

I also have a lot to learn myself. Three years ago (before the documentary) I went to Sea World which is close to me and had a good time. Of course, I was told about the cruelty, but in a good way and I appreciate that. I'm always open to learn new things. Gentle education and seeing vegans eat healthy, get healthy, and stay health is what's attractive. In your face haters aren't.

Your type of veganism is so much more attractive than the haters.
I actually thought about this after i last posted to you,and am seeing things differently now. If a vegetarian does know better,they should try and get off the cheese,etc. I don't agree with all your views but i don't think i'd be being honest with myself i said that vegetarians eating most cheeses and such aren't in fact,unfortunately contributing to the problem and that's simply because what you use your dollars for shows what you support. So,i'm sorry for saying you were wrong. I just think vegetarians should be supported too because i really didn't know factory farming applied to dairy and eggs until i became vegan. Maybe this isn't everyone,but that was my case.
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#42 Old 08-27-2014, 02:23 PM
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This is a very interesting question to me, what life would be like for the remaining food animals if our culture got to the point of following diets that were 100 percent vegetarian and 95 percent vegan. This is what I think it would be like:

I have no doubt that if we got that far and no farther, it would profoundly alter how animals are bred and kept, to a state more like the way it was before animal agriculture was such an assembly-line, concentrated process, only with some scientific advances that helped instead of hurting the animals. Egg-layers would all be pastured, and a large number of them would be pets. If egg/cheese consumption was that low, milk cows wouldn't have to keep calving, and the ones that did calve would be able to feed their own calves. (Milk cows wouldn't have to calve today, except that the alternative is expensive.) Chickens would be kept by the dozens or the pastured hundreds, not by the battery houses crammed with 50,000 in stacked cages. The genders of future egg-layers would be controlled at the hatcheries with temperature manipulation in the egg, or by pre-sorting the sperm before insemination. Cows and chickens could pretty much live out their natural lifespans once they were no longer producing, providing manure to fertilize crops while alive, and blood/bone meal once they had died. The meat from the expired animals would just about supply the demand for pet food. I completely understand and respect that any use of animals for human gain is unacceptable to vegans. People can disagree about this. My heartburn about animal use is more the way it's done than the fact that it's done. But with a vegetarian population that followed 95 percent vegan diets, cruelty would not mean what it means now to the individual animals involved. Motivated watchdog-groups would make sure of that, and a 100-percent vegetarian public would demand it. Some of my numbers might be far off the mark, but the stress on the food animals in use would in any case be profoundly eased from what they endure under present conditions.

i really like your posts. this is pretty much how i feel. I am against speciesism but i don't think some things are wrong for example having cats or dogs as pets. I believe most cats and dogs want to be our companions. As long as were are not hurting animals or making them suffer,i think it's ok sometimes if they have some things they can provide us and benefit us but it's about respect. I do not believe in eating animals and never will though and do not believe in factory farms. But,for example,if a small farm that doesn't kill animals but sold small amount of eggs like this farm:http://www.soy502.com/articulo/disen...ltheria-2015,i dont honestly think that's wrong,at least not in this point of time of my awareness of things. They even say their eggs are smaller and they dont have as many because they are producing them naturally.
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#43 Old 08-27-2014, 02:26 PM
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So it's a stereotype that negatively judges women based in part on on how "attractive" they are, their style, and whether or not they wear makeup?
That's really offensive. I'd reconsider your use of the term, and do some reading (there are lots of online articles) about why stereotypes- negative and positive- are problematic and harmful both to those they're about and the people accepting and using them as figures of speech.
Everything can be a negative stereotype. Should i not use the term or is there a way i'm using it that is offensive? I think a lot of stereotypes have some truth. One should just be themselves and if they don't want to fit a stereotype then just don't fit it.
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#44 Old 08-27-2014, 03:46 PM
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I think I have to slightly disagree here abv. I think there's guilt and guilt. Some people can be eaten up by guilt and it's a terrible thing. For others it's just a simple rememberance of something they did in the past that they rather wish they hadn't. I put myself in the latter camp. No ongoing turmoil for me. If we totally repress what we've done in the past then I think there's a danger that we can start thinking of omnis as "evil monsters" and lose empathy for them. I can't see anything beneficial in that, quite the opposite.

Going on a 5 mile run now then off to the dentist so catch you later.

lv
I don't think you need guilt to be better. Yes,guilt initially for something is is natural but then you heal it,let it all go,and just have empathy. I believe guilt tends to cause us to self sabotage things for ourselves and if we let it all go,we can be better. Better for ourselves,the animals,the world,and others,and really fly high.
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#45 Old 08-27-2014, 04:04 PM
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I can't answer that question. I'm not vegan at this point, although I do avoid eating egg, milk, etc because the way they are produced usually (almost always) harms animals. But in the circles I'm in, both in real life and on-line, I wouldn't say very many vegans hate vegetarians. Some do, yes.

I'd think this thread would be in the Heap. Or at least not in the Vegan Support Forum.

EDITED TO ADD: I formerly did consume a rather dairy-and-egg-heavy vegetarian diet. I honestly was not aware of the cruelty involved at the time, although I should have been aware of what the egg industry entails.
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#46 Old 08-27-2014, 06:33 PM
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You wanted to know why some people were a little aggro at one of your posts....This is why-

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A granola girl vegan is a girl who isn't very attractive and has bad style,doesn't wear makeup,and is kinda hippie like or anti this/that. Also,urban dictionary has a definition of it:http://www.urbandictionary.com/defin...granola%20girl
Maybe it wasn't your intention, but that comes off as pretty harsh. First, you talk about the marketing of veganism and for the most part, I do agree with you. But then when you say something like the above, it's easy to see how some of us might see that and go "Wait a minute, are you trying to say I'm doing a bad job BY being a 'granola girl vegan'? Or that I need to be wearing makeup and if I don't I'm not as valuable as I could be? BECAUSE NO!"


I'm sure that's not what you were trying to say. But it comes off that way a little.

To me, veg*nism needs all the different types of people. If you don't really connect with the 'granola girl' thing, that's cool. I don't really connect with it on a lot of the surface levels....Like being a hippie and I assume there's some kind of floral design that people have to wear and I'm more your faux leather, lots of spiky bits and very dark eyeliner style of girl.... :P (JOKING, I'm sure there's gothy granola types ).

But I think granola types are okay. I don't mind them being 'anti' a whole lot of stuff because chances are, they're just boycotting the same companies or people as I do and probably for the same reason.

I wouldn't really use urban dictionary as a good indicator for what a word means though, it's got some pretty jerky definitions for vegetarians and vegans.
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#47 Old 08-27-2014, 06:56 PM
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You wanted to know why some people were a little aggro at one of your posts....This is why-



Maybe it wasn't your intention, but that comes off as pretty harsh. First, you talk about the marketing of veganism and for the most part, I do agree with you. But then when you say something like the above, it's easy to see how some of us might see that and go "Wait a minute, are you trying to say I'm doing a bad job BY being a 'granola girl vegan'? Or that I need to be wearing makeup and if I don't I'm not as valuable as I could be? BECAUSE NO!"


I'm sure that's not what you were trying to say. But it comes off that way a little.

To me, veg*nism needs all the different types of people. If you don't really connect with the 'granola girl' thing, that's cool. I don't really connect with it on a lot of the surface levels....Like being a hippie and I assume there's some kind of floral design that people have to wear and I'm more your faux leather, lots of spiky bits and very dark eyeliner style of girl.... :P (JOKING, I'm sure there's gothy granola types ).

But I think granola types are okay. I don't mind them being 'anti' a whole lot of stuff because chances are, they're just boycotting the same companies or people as I do and probably for the same reason.

I wouldn't really use urban dictionary as a good indicator for what a word means though, it's got some pretty jerky definitions for vegetarians and vegans.


Beauty is subjective. And,makeup isn't beauty. However,and this is just my opinion,i do find some that fit a stereotype i personally think is unattractive. You can be beautiful and not wear makeup or be into fashion. I go days in a row without makeup myself. But,yes,i have seen a negative stereotype i don't find physically attractive that is sort of anti beauty and what i labeled granola girl. And,for the record,I am somewhat of a hippie type. But,i also love fashion,and makeup. So,i was mostly just speaking on a stereotype that i personally do not want to fit. It doesn't mean you have to wear makeup or being into fashion to be attractive. Not at all. But,i have seen some vegan type girls who are anti makeup and anti fashion,that i personally find to be very physically unattractive. Even my fave vegan blogger has written on her about me section how before she went vegan she thought they all fit certain stereotypes of being granola like or punky anti establishment type and didn't want to be like that,but then when she became vegan she seen how anyone can be vegan and encourages others to see that,too. Everyone should be who they want to be and I am going to be who I want to be. I agree urban dictionary can be jerky but it's also funny sometimes and can get slang terms and stereotypes described for those who are trying to get hip to the lingo of what certain things mean.
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#48 Old 08-27-2014, 06:57 PM
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I didn't expect to offend so much with that one line,but i find the fact that i did quite to the extent i did sort of interesting tbh.
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#49 Old 08-27-2014, 07:10 PM
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Maybe you're not marketing your message very well.
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#50 Old 08-27-2014, 07:49 PM
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Maybe you're not marketing your message very well.
Don't start with me. It's clear you don't like me and are projecting your issues onto me. What an ignorant sarcastic response that was.
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#51 Old 08-27-2014, 07:54 PM
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Maybe you're not marketing your message very well.
your not fooling me. i'm onto you.
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#52 Old 08-27-2014, 08:48 PM
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Everything can be a negative stereotype. Should i not use the term or is there a way i'm using it that is offensive? I think a lot of stereotypes have some truth. One should just be themselves and if they don't want to fit a stereotype then just don't fit it.
It's almost always used as a pejorative term. I would stop using it period.

Here are two articles to start you on understanding why stereotypes are problematic--

An article with a great breakdown of the basics of stereotypes: what they are, how they differer from generalizations, their complications, whether they can be good, their relationship to truth:
http://racerelations.about.com/od/un...Stereotype.htm

Am article that goes more in-depth on why stereotypes, even "good" ones, are fundamentally a problem. It goes into a study on "good" vs "bad" ones:
http://www.theguardian.com/commentis...even-when-good



I'd also say that people should not need to change who they are and how they act to avoid fitting into stereotypes.
An individual's identity and their ability to be true to themselves should be able to be their first priority. Worrying about changing yourself to fit into society or to avoid being lumped into a harmful stereotype is an awful, hurtful thing.
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#53 Old 08-27-2014, 09:25 PM
 
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Let's try to get along with each other despite our differences. Please? Personally I don't believe in owning animals unnecessarily - no pets, no "companion animals" much like I don't believe in eating animals unnecessarily. And just like it is rarely necessary to eat animals, in this day and age, it is rarely necessary to own animals. And of course I believe in not breeding animals and maintaining populations of animals for food purposes, fur purposes, work animal purposes, or pet animal purposes. But, 2 things, (1) I am willing to look at individual situations and make exceptions to my ideals - such as for example perhaps service animals for blind people - without being blind myself, I wouldn't presume to say they were unnecessary for a blind person and (2) I believe in not hating people who don't believe as I do, whether they are veg, but not AS veg, as me, or whether they are non-veg altogether. HATING people who don't do what you want them to do does not get them to do what you want. FORCING them to do what you want is not a long-term solution either. The only thing that helps is communication, education, and VISIBLY living the life you espouse and offering help to other people to live it. Forcing them to live it or hating them if they don't live it, is not going to get good results.

For me, being vegan is not about "belonging" to "the vegan group," being identified as vegan. Rather, it is about - being vegan. Not hurting animals unnecessarily and believing that it is almost always unnecessary in regard to food, and doing the best I can in regard to clothing, shelter, etcetera. Yes, I do prefer to be with other vegans. The products of animal slaughter are ugly, and will spoil the ambience of the area I am in. And I don't paricularly want to "date" non-vegans. Think of the "dining out" date. I order vegan food and my date orders flesh food? Not conducive to togetherness. Will I consider exceptions? Yes. But basically - i want to keep the ugliness of the products of slaughter, away from me. That doesn't mean I HATe non-vegans.

One more thing: what I do is not about being "right" or "wrong" or about judging what other people do as being right or wrong. It is about Not Harming. Ahimsa. I don't want to be harmed. No-one does. And I know that there is a tendency for animals that have been harmed, to want to cause harm, that the feeling is contagious. If one succumbs to the tendency to respond to being harmed, by causing harm, a "harm unit" goes out into the world. The sum total in the world of "tendencies to harm" is maintained and the likelyhood of me being harmed in the future is maintained. So therefore it is best if I do not cause any harm, not even to someone who harmed me. I must Break the Cycle.

Last edited by fishfriend; 08-27-2014 at 09:42 PM.
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#54 Old 08-27-2014, 11:05 PM
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Originally Posted by anole View Post
It's almost always used as a pejorative term. I would stop using it period.

Here are two articles to start you on understanding why stereotypes are problematic--

An article with a great breakdown of the basics of stereotypes: what they are, how they differer from generalizations, their complications, whether they can be good, their relationship to truth:
http://racerelations.about.com/od/un...Stereotype.htm

Am article that goes more in-depth on why stereotypes, even "good" ones, are fundamentally a problem. It goes into a study on "good" vs "bad" ones:
http://www.theguardian.com/commentis...even-when-good



I'd also say that people should not need to change who they are and how they act to avoid fitting into stereotypes.
An individual's identity and their ability to be true to themselves should be able to be their first priority. Worrying about changing yourself to fit into society or to avoid being lumped into a harmful stereotype is an awful, hurtful thing.
i won't use it on here.i'm not going to stop using it.i don't see anything harmful about it. i've heard other vegans use it,and people have stereotypes against me for certain things,too. It's impossible to live in a world where we don't judge one another. Some people actually enjoy fitting into stereotypes. They even attempt to fit into them. A person shouldn't worry about changing to fit in,but should be themselves. I fail to see how this stereotype is harmful. I can think of far,far more stereotypes that are run closer to being harmful. A lot of people even like to jest at the stereotypes and boxes they fit in. And,some people deal with frustrations of it,at times. But,it's not harmful. If you are an open person,and just be yourself,you will be fine. It's impossible to not have stereotypes. And,most humans are very hung up on identity and ego. Stereotypes helps us to identify others and identify ourselves to the world. Things have good and bad sides. Don't think it's harmful,still. If something offends us,it's something within ourselves we need to heal or transform.
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#55 Old 08-27-2014, 11:16 PM
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Originally Posted by fishfriend View Post
Let's try to get along with each other despite our differences. Please? Personally I don't believe in owning animals unnecessarily - no pets, no "companion animals" much like I don't believe in eating animals unnecessarily. And just like it is rarely necessary to eat animals, in this day and age, it is rarely necessary to own animals. And of course I believe in not breeding animals and maintaining populations of animals for food purposes, fur purposes, work animal purposes, or pet animal purposes. But, 2 things, (1) I am willing to look at individual situations and make exceptions to my ideals - such as for example perhaps service animals for blind people - without being blind myself, I wouldn't presume to say they were unnecessary for a blind person and (2) I believe in not hating people who don't believe as I do, whether they are veg, but not AS veg, as me, or whether they are non-veg altogether. HATING people who don't do what you want them to do does not get them to do what you want. FORCING them to do what you want is not a long-term solution either. The only thing that helps is communication, education, and VISIBLY living the life you espouse and offering help to other people to live it. Forcing them to live it or hating them if they don't live it, is not going to get good results.

For me, being vegan is not about "belonging" to "the vegan group," being identified as vegan. Rather, it is about - being vegan. Not hurting animals unnecessarily and believing that it is almost always unnecessary in regard to food, and doing the best I can in regard to clothing, shelter, etcetera. Yes, I do prefer to be with other vegans. The products of animal slaughter are ugly, and will spoil the ambience of the area I am in. And I don't paricularly want to "date" non-vegans. Think of the "dining out" date. I order vegan food and my date orders flesh food? Not conducive to togetherness. Will I consider exceptions? Yes. But basically - i want to keep the ugliness of the products of slaughter, away from me. That doesn't mean I HATe non-vegans.

One more thing: what I do is not about being "right" or "wrong" or about judging what other people do as being right or wrong. It is about Not Harming. Ahimsa. I don't want to be harmed. No-one does. And I know that there is a tendency for animals that have been harmed, to want to cause harm, that the feeling is contagious. If one succumbs to the tendency to respond to being harmed, by causing harm, a "harm unit" goes out into the world. The sum total in the world of "tendencies to harm" is maintained and the likelyhood of me being harmed in the future is maintained. So therefore it is best if I do not cause any harm, not even to someone who harmed me. I must Break the Cycle.

It is better to be kind then to be right. I personally believe animals such as cats and dogs WANT to be pets,at least usually and i'd bet my life on this. I know for a cat,for example,my cat came into this world in this life time to be in my life and is my soul connection. I find it redic to think otherwise. I also think it's absurd to never have cats or dogs exist because we as humans take care of them. It is this a use of a dominance? Yes,but it's non harmful dominance. I am not against dominance. I am against cruelty. I personally,am not crazy about the term "pet." I will agree with that. But kitties and puppies in this world existing and us humans taking care of them in the best way we know how? Damn right i think that's only a good thing. Again,i firmly believe they came into this world to be companions to us. My cat taught me so many amazing lessons and reawakened me to love and i cant imagine life where she just lived outside or in the wild and not with me as kitty child taking care of her teaching me,and me teaching her. I am highly intuitive. As a former cat mother,it bothers me that people think cats shouldn't be with people like me. But,it's ok. You can't break away soul connections. I don't think humans will ever stop having cats and dogs in their lives even if the world does become vegan. When i start to believe factory farming really can cease to exist but then people speak about animals no longer being pets,it just feels like we've now tooken the conversation to pigs flying and something unneccessary and ridiculous.
again,not trying to debate,but have you ever been a cat or dog? Have you ever connected deeply with a cat or dog? If ownership of animals ceased to exist,i know in my heart,most of them would still try to come into human's lives to be adopted and tooken care of because they WANT that. Animals aren't humans. Humans are animals. We are equal. But,we are different. You can't relate a cat or dog to be exactly like you,because they're not. They don't want the exact same things as us. They don't react/feel/think the same things as us.
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#56 Old 08-27-2014, 11:23 PM
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We don't NEED to live in this perfect world. I feel like some members are trying to come into this place of "perfect." But,it's not needed. WE can be crazy. We can be a mess. We can can have stereotypes. Kitties and puppies can be tooken care of by a human and that's OK. Is the world really going to be a better place if we never had a stereotype of judgement against one another? I don't think so. I think the contrast is nice and encourages growth. It's real. Does dominance need to cease to exist? No. All we really need to do is be kinder,more open,more loving,more forgiving. When we can love one another and enjoy our differences then we'll be happy. I think the animals would think were quite silly at some of these conversations. Does a cat care if you call it a granola girl cat? Lol. Animals just want love and to be happy. They don't focus on things that when it comes down to it,won't really matter.
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#57 Old 08-28-2014, 12:20 AM
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Originally Posted by annabellevegan239 View Post
Stereotypes helps us to identify others and identify ourselves to the world. Things have good and bad sides. Don't think it's harmful,still. If something offends us,it's something within ourselves we need to heal or transform.
Really?

I have to say I take the counter view.

When someone stereotypes me and it's done in an offensive or hurtful way, that's on that person. If someone makes an assumption about my boundaries or abilities, that's not a problem I have, it's a problem they have. And I make sure they know it's a problem THEY have.

Example- I was told I should wear makeup because I'm a girl and obviously all women need to wear makeup.

I was told that because of a stereotype, the stereotype that all women wear makeup and if they don't they're not being 'professional'. (I'm of the opinion that being professional means getting to work on time, getting your job done and being good at it, not how much eyeliner you manage to slather on) None of the men in the office wore make up. But because of a stereotype I was expected to.

I told that person to.... go away. But I was much more descriptive, while showing them just how unprofessional I could be.
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#58 Old 08-28-2014, 01:16 AM
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Really?

I have to say I take the counter view.

When someone stereotypes me and it's done in an offensive or hurtful way, that's on that person. If someone makes an assumption about my boundaries or abilities, that's not a problem I have, it's a problem they have. And I make sure they know it's a problem THEY have.

Example- I was told I should wear makeup because I'm a girl and obviously all women need to wear makeup.

I was told that because of a stereotype, the stereotype that all women wear makeup and if they don't they're not being 'professional'. (I'm of the opinion that being professional means getting to work on time, getting your job done and being good at it, not how much eyeliner you manage to slather on) None of the men in the office wore make up. But because of a stereotype I was expected to.

I told that person to.... go away. But I was much more descriptive, while showing them just how unprofessional I could be.
Well,to me that's not stereotyping. That's jackassery and sexism. Women should only wear makeup if they want to. Unforuntately,in the world we live in today,sexism is quite rampant since society is male dominated. I think that is another issue.
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#59 Old 08-28-2014, 01:21 AM
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The wonderful thing about stereotyping is i'd bet we all do it. And,the wonderful gift we can have from meeting different kinds of people and seeing how they actually don't fit this or that stereotype or this societally conditioned view we have in our mind. We all have stereotypes we have to deal with. Personally,I say we enjoy the stereotypes we fit in. I love me,and I love what I DO fit,and what I don't fit. It's fun. It's the stories of our lives! I even find it funny when i do fit certain stereotypes quite well. I joke that i'm such a cliche. Life isn't supposed to be tooken so seriously! It's supposed to be fun. I've enjoyed the learning experiences that have come from peeling away the layers of my assumptions and societal conditioning.
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#60 Old 08-28-2014, 02:28 AM
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While I agree that companion animals and humans often have a special bond and pets often want to live with us, I also understand that the pet industry is not quite that innocent. There are millions of unwanted, abused, and bred animals that end up being put down or spending their lives on chains, or at a humane society, as food for another pet, homeless etc. Too many people buy animals because they are cute, only to discard or get rid of them later because they are too much work. There are as of yet few laws to protect pet animals as they are still seen as property, not living beings that are part of a family. And many pets, such as cats, require feeding them the byproducts of slaughter. When you add up how many pet cats are being fed the byproducts of farm animal slaughter daily, that is a lot of animal slaughter and more than likely untold suffering before those animals are slaughtered for another animal. Right now I have two neighbors that let their cats roam all over the place and while I adore those cats, they are killing the birds and squirrels that visit my yard, are choosing to use the side of my house for a litterbox, and are getting in to my garden. They have become my responsibility. Politely asking the neighbors to keep their cats confined to their own area often ends up resulting in defensiveness and hostility on their part. I also cycle around the neighborhood and there is a house that keeps an urban chicken coop. those chickens are confined to a caged area all day in the corner of the yard. More than likely they are kept for their eggs. To me I couldn't imagine a life confined to a caged area, whether I am sheltered or protected or not. Not able to forage, find mates, raise young. This is the reality for many animals, whether they realize it or not. They might not have the capacity to understand their reality versus what could be, but we do. I'm not going to lie that it is a gray area in some ways for me. All of us have to share our planet and live together in some way, people and animals. Dogs and cats and other "pets" have been around for thousands of years. How do we live with one another without someone having to sacrifice their own needs and desires?

In the end, only kindness matters. - Jewel



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