Revisiting the vegan police issue: How to create a more welcoming vegan environment - Page 2 - VeggieBoards
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#31 Old 12-12-2013, 09:01 AM
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You do realize cows raised for leather would be just as environmentally unfriendly as cows raised for meat, right?

Profit margins are so slim now, even with all the meat and every other part of the body sold off, that some years cattle raisers lose money for every animal they sell. It's hard to imagine a business plan for raising such a hungry and thirsty animal and then using only its skin. The only way they could make money that way is if leather became 10 times as expensive as it is now. Meaning that only rich people could afford to buy things made out of leather. The  upshot is that even if some animals were raised for only their leather, there wouldn't be nearly as many of them, so the environmental cost would be far lower than in the current markets. I understand that some fur-bearing animals are raised for only their fur, but their pelts are very expensive and they belong to species that bear several litters per year and reach market size at a much younger age than cattle do. Not, like cattle, one baby per cow once every 11 or 12 months. There is no scenario that would result in cows-for-lleather-only harming the environment the way raising cattle for meat harms it. People point to India as an exception, but the beef industry is growing rapidly in India. There is in fact a market for the meat of cattle raised in India: the Indian Muslims, the Pakistanis next door, and the non-observant Hindus.

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#32 Old 12-12-2013, 09:12 AM
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I accept that veganism is an ethical stance, but at the end of the day, does it really matter?


Yes and no.  I don't care much about the word per se, and I strongly agree it is a good thing that general awareness and interest have gone up the way they have.  Yet it is also important that ethical veganism continue, even if there's still no rise in the number of serious adherents to this cause for some time yet to come.


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#33 Old 12-12-2013, 10:04 AM
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Yes and no.  I don't care much about the word per se, and I strongly agree it is a good thing that general awareness and interest have gone up the way they have.  Yet it is also important that ethical veganism continue, even if there's still no rise in the number of serious adherents to this cause for some time yet to come.

 

I agree - and from personal experience I've found that people who take the health or environmental route are often more open to learning about the treatment of animals once they are no longer complicit in their death.

 

So the holy grail of ethical veganism should stay, but we should be aware that there are many pathways to it, and that some people may stop along the way and just be comfortable at the stage that they have reached.

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#34 Old 12-12-2013, 10:45 AM
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some people may stop along the way and just be comfortable at the stage that they have reached.

I experienced that myself; a couple veggie decades shrugging off vegan positions.  So I can totally relate, even where the person's path is not precisely like mine.  However, I never really did experience personal offense from a vegan.  I have witnessed exchanges I found unpalatable.  I myself don't go around screaming "Meat is murder!" at slight provocation.  But I never was so targeted that I recall.  Perhaps therefore I'm not best qualified to help with this thread, actually.  I suppose that it could be just good fortune that has left me tending to feel as though resentment of vegans is mostly based on misperception and exaggerated memories driven simply by the fact that the whole premise runs directly counter to enormous conditioning about animals to which I know we all have been exposed.


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#35 Old 12-12-2013, 11:03 AM
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I experienced that myself; a couple veggie decades shrugging off vegan positions.  So I can totally relate, even where the person's path is not precisely like mine.  However, I never really did experience personal offense from a vegan.  I have witnessed exchanges I found unpalatable.  I myself don't go around screaming "Meat is murder!" at slight provocation.  But I never was so targeted that I recall.  Perhaps therefore I'm not best qualified to help with this thread, actually.  I suppose that it could be just good fortune that has left me tending to feel as though resentment of vegans is mostly based on misperception and exaggerated memories driven simply by the fact that the whole premise runs directly counter to enormous conditioning about animals to which I know we all have been exposed.

 

I often make the huge mistake of reading the comments section on any article that is pro-vegan, whether from an animal rights/environmental or dietary point of view.  (I keep telling myself,  'don't read the comment section, don't read the comment section' but like a moth to a flame my eyes are drawn there!)  It's there that you will come across the vegan police, patrolling the internets 24/7 and putting people 'right' in a highly obnoxious fashion.

 

Quite often I find myself cringing at the comments - I might agree with what they are saying, but the way the say it, and the way they come across? it's not so surprising that there are a lot of anti-vegans out there.

 

If  ever I get involved in the discussions, in an effort to present a more understanding argument (which again I tell myself not to, but sometimes my fingers merrily type away without my brain's permission) they'll turn on me and on anyone else who tries to be a little more accepting, engaging and inclusive to those not yet at the stage of understanding and compassion to animals that we have reached.

 

And I must point out that there are vegetarian police out there too who do the same thing as the vegan police :mad:

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#36 Old 12-12-2013, 06:13 PM
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It's how you tell people that's important. If vegans come across as boorish and full of moral superiority it gets people annoyed, whereas if as a vegan can get them to think about it, then they may come to the conclusion that you want them to come to, all by themselves.

 

Vegans on this board can very helpful, but there are other times when they are happy to denigrate others because they are not as pure as they consider themselves to be, or they are vegan 'for the wrong reasons'.

 

I agree with angie54321. It's more in the message delivery. I agree with River that non-vegans shouldn't be so offended when someone says, "Hey, you're wearing leather - you do understand that's harming an animal right and by definition that's not considered vegan." BUT how this message gets delivered is where we run into problems. 

 

I've met a lot of helpful vegans and vegetarians who have the ability to explain things so they make sense while not feeling like they're attacking me. I've also met some who jump right away to, "You're NOT vegan... You're messing this up.... Why on earth are you even trying to be vegetarian." That's not helpful but very discouraging. 

 

I think it's easy to forget how discouraging it can feel to be told how bad you're doing at something. For example, here's my life....

 

  • As a young teen (12) cut out almost all meat - mom would make me eat some, but it wasn't my choice.
  • By 16 or 17 I believe I had cut all meat out of my diet. 
  • In my 20s I switched to all non-animal tested products (as much as knowledge and research allowed). 
  • I've never ever bought leather or other animal products (clothing, bags, etc) ever. Not that I know of anyway. I've always thought this was nuts and buy man-made materials.

 

From late teens onward until I went vegan, I was still eating cheese on some food, using eggs once in a while and using butter (rarely honey). That was the extent of my animal harm. I actually felt like I was doing a whole of good for animals but that's not how I've been treated by my peers. Instead I've been continually treated like a freak by my omni family and then on the flip-side treated rudely by many vegans and vegetarians I met for not doing enough or not being AR minded enough.

 

Getting grief from both sides for years is enough to drive you mad and make you wonder why you're even bothering doing anything. 

 

In my offline life, I've had brand new vegans rail on me for not being vegan even though I had years on them avoiding meat, animal tested stuff and so on. 

 

When I first came to VB I was vegetarian not vegan and unfortunately I also originally went vegetarian for non AR issues, which I'm always open about because otherwise I'd feel like a liar. So, basically the second I arrived here, I had people commenting that maybe I'd wise up and learn more about the AR issues associated with vegetarians and vegans now that I was at VB. Someone here told me early on that I clearly wasn't a great vegetarian because I wasn't in this for the animals, but that "I'd hopefully learn" not in a nice tone either. This is the same kind of stuff I encountered offline too - NOT just here. 

 

The problem was that by the time I came to VB me being anti-AR wasn't even particularly true anymore. After 18 years of being veg, the AR issues were really starting to sink in for me, but because I said, "Well, when I first went veg it was because I didn't like the taste of meat" a lot of folks acted like I was toxic to the cause. 

 

By the time I joined VB I was really interested in becoming vegan, but being blasted right off as NOT caring about animals the right way really bothered me and made my brain say, "Wow vegans can be extreme." A lot of people spend their whole lives eating meat, so as someone who had spent 15 + years not using meat or animal tested stuff or buying clothes made of animals, it was really depressing to be told I sucked at AR. 

 

I'm lucky because here at VB I also ran into some vegans who were clear, honest and helpful without being accusing - ElaineV comes to mind (though she's not the only one). She really helped me with the last steps of going vegan. She managed to give me info about eggs, for example, without making me feel like a lame brain idiot. 

 

Everyone is on a different path to vegetarian and vegan. And everyone has different reasons for first going veg. If the message we get is frustrating, rude or accusing, it makes that path much harder to navigate. It also makes you not want to go vegan or be more AR out of spite - which sounds horrid I know, but seriously, people can only take so much of "You need to do it this way" before they get frustrated or want to give up or want to say "I can do this my own way! Or I'm not doing it at all."

 

That's the PR issue. When I was vegetarian I was doing as much as I personally could at the time. I could have done more sure. I still could do more like volunteer with animals or what have you, but right now I'm doing what I can. And really I do more than most other people I know in my life who eat meat with abandon and wear leather and so on. 

 

I feel like if someone is trying and we blast their methods it just makes them want to give up the whole deal - that would be their fault when you get right down to it. If I gave up vegan or vegetarian it would be on me, but based on my experiences I can really see where people start to say, "I just want to quit and not be a part of this."


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#37 Old 12-12-2013, 09:43 PM
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Just going to address all the points that I liked reading in the above posts :P

I totally don't think that vegan needs another word, or that the word vegan needs to be changed to accommodate people who just "want to eat plant-based diets". Though I'm sure the first article I read about Beyonce and Jay Z, he actually made a distinction between being vegan and being on a plant-based diet, in that he said they weren't going to be going 'vegan', but the diet was 'plant-based'. So, I think they understand that there's a difference, it's the media (both sides mainstream and vego/vegan/enviro) that is pushing the word vegan.


It's important that people be educated as to the meaning of the word vegan, whether they like the meaning of it or not is up to them. I think there's still a lot of education to be done, as to what different words mean and most people really do want to know because it helps them get a clearer picture of what is otherwise a fairly alien world. (How many of us actually know other vegos in real life? That AREN'T our partners? Not many.) As long as we approach questions and education of the word 'vegan' in a polite and calm matter, then we do something good for us and something really great for the animals. If someone wants to get vitriolic in response to that education of the word 'vegan', then let them. They're the one who ends up looking extreme and out of control.

And Jennifer- Yes.

I think you're so right about supporting people on the path they're on. As much as I don't have time for 'health vegans', I'm not about to tell them to STOP what they're doing. I'm more likely to ask them whether they've considered the animals at any point yet. If someone can accept that being vegan in diet can be healthy, or even acknowledge that animal products can actually CAUSE harm.... Then the killing of animals to eat? Well, that makes it much worse, right? It's not like they're someone who's saying "But I NEED to eat animals because I need mah proteins!".

And there is a 'PR problem' for vegans. When I went veg, I kept saying "I will never be vegan" because in my head, they were extreme, they were nasty, they were 'superior' and I would never be able to live up to it anyway, so why even bother looking into it? Being on VB and actually being able to speak with REAL vegans, I have a much better understanding. It's not a label I think I will ever use, even if I cut dairy, but it's one I have a lot more respect for now. But again, it comes back to being able to have a proper discussion, having someone take the time to show that it's not about superiority, but basic principles/beliefs that come with it.
 

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#38 Old 12-13-2013, 02:41 AM
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I think you're so right about supporting people on the path they're on. As much as I don't have time for 'health vegans', I'm not about to tell them to STOP what they're doing. I'm more likely to ask them whether they've considered the animals at any point yet. If someone can accept that being vegan in diet can be healthy, or even acknowledge that animal products can actually CAUSE harm.... Then the killing of animals to eat? Well, that makes it much worse, right? It's not like they're someone who's saying "But I NEED to eat animals because I need mah proteins!".


And there is a 'PR problem' for vegans. When I went veg, I kept saying "I will never be vegan" because in my head, they were extreme, they were nasty, they were 'superior' and I would never be able to live up to it anyway, so why even bother looking into it? Being on VB and actually being able to speak with REAL vegans, I have a much better understanding. It's not a label I think I will ever use, even if I cut dairy, but it's one I have a lot more respect for now. But again, it comes back to being able to have a proper discussion, having someone take the time to show that it's not about superiority, but basic principles/beliefs that come with it.
 

 

I agree that health (and environmental) vegans are far more open to the argument about animal abuse, but even then it's important to tread gently - many of us have been steeped for years in a society that believes that our right to eat certain animals trumps their right to live, and health and enviro vegans can still struggle with this. But I've personally found that they are more open to the arguments, by being that crucial step away from consuming animals on a regular basis.

 

I eat a 95% vegan diet, but even if I made the leap to 100% and eschewed all animal products (and in all honesty I see no reason to do that) I would not choose to use the word vegan to describe myself - mainly because of the way that some vegans behave on the internet.  I really do not want to be associated with a group that is viewed as seeing themselves as morally superior and having the right to vilify others for their eating habits, or other veg*ns for not being vegan enough. I appreciate that it is only a minority of vegans who do this, but unfortunately the minority are far more vociferous than the majority.

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#39 Old 12-13-2013, 06:00 AM
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I've never had a bad experience with a vegan in real life, either before or after becoming vegetarian, and the only bad online experiences I've had with any vegans were here on VB. It used to be pretty routine for vegans to treat vegetarians poorly, and it doesn't happen to me anymore. I think whatever was wrong with VB in that way has healed itself, or at least is quite far along in the process of doing this. I've noticed a distinct and positive shift in tone, and wanted to say how much I appreciate that.

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#40 Old 12-13-2013, 09:53 AM
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I've never had a bad experience with a vegan in real life, either before or after becoming vegetarian, and the only bad online experiences I've had with any vegans were here on VB. It used to be pretty routine for vegans to treat vegetarians poorly, and it doesn't happen to me anymore. I think whatever was wrong with VB in that way has healed itself, or at least is quite far along in the process of doing this. I've noticed a distinct and positive shift in tone, and wanted to say how much I appreciate that.

That's awesome! I've noticed positive changes here at VB too - significant ones actually. 

 

You're lucky you've never run into a judgmental vegetarian or vegan in real life. Maybe I know the wrong people. Or maybe it's the whole PDX hipster deal. I LOVE Portland, but people here can be so clique minded at times. Not just about veggie stuff but music, hiking, dogs, clubs, theater, pretty much everything. If there's a group who is into something here, you can bet there are some die hards within said group. I'm still glad to be here though. There are pros. 


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#41 Old 12-13-2013, 08:52 PM
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I agree that health (and environmental) vegans are far more open to the argument about animal abuse, but even then it's important to tread gently - many of us have been steeped for years in a society that believes that our right to eat certain animals trumps their right to live, and health and enviro vegans can still struggle with this. But I've personally found that they are more open to the arguments, by being that crucial step away from consuming animals on a regular basis.

 


I try to tread as gently as possible, but I have heavy boots so I'm not always successful. :p

You're right about being 'away' from consuming animals. It really does make the difference. I mean, Dr Melanie Joy went vegetarian AFTER getting food poisoning. Sure, she had wanted to go veg before, but even she says that it took her taking that time away from eating meat, before she could really start thinking about the animals. Now she's this massive vegan-maker! (I saw her talk here in Australia, there were people leaving that room who I don't think would ever be the same).

 

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I eat a 95% vegan diet, but even if I made the leap to 100% and eschewed all animal products (and in all honesty I see no reason to do that) I would not choose to use the word vegan to describe myself - mainly because of the way that some vegans behave on the internet.  I really do not want to be associated with a group that is viewed as seeing themselves as morally superior and having the right to vilify others for their eating habits, or other veg*ns for not being vegan enough. I appreciate that it is only a minority of vegans who do this, but unfortunately the minority are far more vociferous than the majority.


It's sad that you feel that way because of a select few, but I do get it. There's a line, I think, between passionate advocacy and just being a jerk. We all step over that line, no matter who we are, because it's been a long day or we're sick of dancing around something, or we just want people to understand that they're doing it wrong. But being nasty to someone? There's no point. I wouldn't listen to what someone had to say, if they were being rude to me.

I see a reason to eschew all animal products (within my power) I really do. But only because of compassionate vegan voices, not judgmental ones. They're the ones who have made me question a whole range of things, even after going vegetarian. But, I still wouldn't be a 'vegan'. That's okay though, as long as we're all not eating animals, it's doing something right. :P

 

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#42 Old 12-15-2013, 06:48 PM
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A natural consequence of massive amounts of people using the word means it's destiny now belongs entirely to the collective whims of common usage, and it will inevitably suffer the same fate as billions of other words in the course of it's journey. 

 

Right now however millions of people who never would have known about a plant based diet, now know about it. They find it interesting enough to talk about, think about, research and even try. I don't think it matters whether or not the word gets diluted, any word that becomes phenomenally popular gets diluted, it's just a natural part of what happens when millions of people start using a word.

 

I agree. In general.

 

I agree that words' meanings change over time as they used by the masses. That's inevitable and trying to stop it is futile. In this case, it's probably a good thing that so many people are talking about veganism. AND they're at least getting the part about not eating animal products right.

 

I think that we can and should do just a little bit to prevent the word from meaning something like strict vegetarian, but we shouldn't get caught up in that. We should spend more time actually helping animals or encouraging people to go vegan. And we certainly shouldn't be handing out harsh criticisms to people who use the word vegan incorrectly.

 

One easy way to help maintain the proper definition is simply to submit definitions to places like Urban Dictionary, Wikipedia, and to define the word on our blogs, facebooks, and other relatively permanent places. 

 

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If you really want abolition, forget the purity of labels and concentrate on getting the message across that vegan food is healthy and good for you, good for the environment, good for the animals - whatever argument appeals to the omnivore standing in front on you.  You can't always sell what YOU find attractive, you have to find out what appeals to the potential buyer of your arguments and sell them on that. And do it gently, considerately and with compassion.

I totally agree with this. 

 

Too often we think of activism from a selfish perspective - what it does for us. But that's not what matters. Here's how I see it...

 

Causing change is about figuring out:

1. What needs to happen?

2. Who can make that happen?

3. What does that person need to hear to be persuaded to make the change?

4. Who do they need to hear it from?

 

 

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If Beyonce and her chap are just focusing on the diet itself (which from all the press reports I have heard, they are) then wearing animal products is nothing to do with it (although I do think it was incredibly insensitive to wear fur to a vegan restaurant).  

 

I just thought this was funny. "Her chap" is Jay Z, pretty famous in his own right. They are a power couple.

 

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I agree - and from personal experience I've found that people who take the health or environmental route are often more open to learning about the treatment of animals once they are no longer complicit in their death.

Agreed. I've seen this happen many times. I think that when someone stops having to mentally defend unethical choices at every meal they become more open to considering that those former choices were unethical. It doesn't matter the original motivation for ceasing to eat animals, what matters is that the habit changes long enough to reconsider the ethical implications. In other words, the health argument for veganism can work as a "foot in the door."

 

And it may be particularly effective if it comes along with health benefits, which it often does. As Yingchen pointed out in another thread, someone's vegan identity may be strengthened if they have both altruistic and selfish motivations. 

 

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You're lucky you've never run into a judgmental vegetarian or vegan in real life. 

Yeah, I've run into plenty online and off. I'm even one myself at times. 

 

I think the key to changing our image is really to just get more of the undercover vegans to come out of the closet. I think if more vegans would just stand up and admit they're vegan more often then the whole "vegans are [fill in the blank stereotype]" will fade away.

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#43 Old 12-16-2013, 12:15 AM
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I just thought this was funny. "Her chap" is Jay Z, pretty famous in his own right. They are a power couple.

 

 

 

 

I do know that he's famous in his own right: I just like throwing in quintessentially English terminology for fun sometimes :D  It's a British thing, please pardon the weird sense of humour (note the correct spelling!) that we have.

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#44 Old 12-16-2013, 09:26 AM
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I do know that he's famous in his own right: I just like throwing in quintessentially English terminology for fun sometimes :D  It's a British thing, please pardon the weird sense of humour (note the correct spelling!) that we have.

You know more than me Angie, I've never heard of Jay Z. Power couple or whatever, we don't seem to get performers coming to Yorkshire since the Batley Variety club closed down.

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#45 Old 12-16-2013, 09:44 AM
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You know more than me Angie, I've never heard of Jay Z. Power couple or whatever, we don't seem to get performers coming to Yorkshire since the Batley Variety club closed down.

 

The Batley Variety Club would probably be far too big a venue for them to fill anyway ;)

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#46 Old 12-16-2013, 09:55 AM
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The Batley Variety Club would probably be far too big a venue for them to fill anyway ;)

Yup. I'm sure their pulling power wouldn't match that of Ken Dodd. Having said that, Dolly Parton went down well in Rotherham 6 years ago with her book reading scheme for under 5s.

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#47 Old 12-16-2013, 10:44 AM
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Now I desperately want to visit the Batley Variety Club.

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#48 Old 12-25-2013, 07:37 PM
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Forget about welcoming others. First make sure they can stand, move, and think, for themselves. It's not all about you and your success, it's about them. 

 

Speak the Truth and only the Truth when discussing this cause, as this cause is rooted in the Truthful fact that Life is Most Important in Life.

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#49 Old 12-26-2013, 11:25 AM
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Forget about welcoming others. First make sure they can stand, move, and think, for themselves. It's not all about you and your success, it's about them. 



 



Speak the Truth and only the Truth when discussing this cause, as this cause is rooted in the Truthful fact that Life is Most Important in Life.

 



Of couse you should speak the truth. The point is, that you don't need to be a jerk when speaking the truth.
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#50 Old 12-26-2013, 01:40 PM
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Forget about welcoming others. First make sure they can stand, move, and think, for themselves. It's not all about you and your success, it's about them. 

 

 

 

Speak the Truth and only the Truth when discussing this cause, as this cause is rooted in the Truthful fact that Life is Most Important in Life.

 



Of couse you should speak the truth. The point is, that you don't need to be a jerk when speaking the truth.

 

 

We should all speak the Truth. We should all accept the Truth. We cannot be a jerk. There is no POINT in a lie. People are not their actions.

 

Whether it be someone launching a personal attack on another because they don't want to accept the very real Truth of a situation; accepting the real POINT made using the Truth as guidance, and accepting the Truthful conclusions, or the following remarks that cry, "I am a victim", to avoid again... accepting the Truth, or the violent opposition that may present itself from others, the Truth still remains the Truth and none of us can change that fact. Acceptance as self-evident eventually transpires if given enough time.

 

It seems it never ceases to amaze me how many people 'launch personal attacks' and 'cry victim' to attempt to avoid any and all personal responsibility.

 

We play games with the very lives of others and deny their wholesome and logic based thoughts based on mutual observation and attempt to deny others sanity for nothing more than our own egos. We 'cry victim' in the face of others when presented the Truth rather than reaffirm the proper foundation in another and take statements of the Truth as personal attacks on us rather than the actual compliment it is to have another speak critically to us of the Truth. We ignore the very sincere and honorable complement it is that another person actually does see us as Most Important and worthy of the Truth and has faith that we can reach limitless bounds within factual "TRUTHFUL' reality. We, as a people, will do most anything to hide and ignore the Truth. Yet, regardless, all of our attempts are in vain, as we remain Most Important so long as we live because the Truth says so. This is why I speak the Truth to you. It will never go away. It is eternal.

 

Make no mistake about it.... If I were to give you billion dollars would that help you? The Most Important Truth in Life: Life is Most Important in Life, is far more valuable. Nothing you will ever read or hear in your entire Life will be more valuable. Check it out. I wouldn't joke about this.

 

I have reaffirmed in my brothers and sisters The Most Important Truth in Life. I have shown with actual fact exactly, and honestly, why you are Most Important. Do you really want to call me an idiot or a person out of his mind by making making personal attacks on me or crying victim? Think about it. If I am out of my mind, or rambling on, or in some other derogatory state of mind, then my words of your importance you would have to shoot down too. You're not going to find anything more valuable. You will never hear words more important. You will never find a different center of mutually defined reality where all of our differences are put aside and only the Truth between us is used to prove incontestably that you are indeed, "Most Important".

 

Open the gift within yourself. See yourself as who you really are before you start crying like a baby that your feelings have been hurt. We have enough terrible suffering as it is. Check the ego at the door.

 

 

 

http://farm7.staticflickr.com/6091/6304805017_39c20f8eb6_b_d.jpg

 

 

No, we can't be a confessor...but this was all he knew when he made it.

 

 

 

The Most Important Truth in Life: Life is Most Important in Life.

 

Where were you when you were reminded? Did you choose the correct side on the spot or did you attempt obstruction of the One Truth that is The Most Important in Life of all?

 

This is my last 'intentional' post here on this site. You have what you need. The Truth is the leader. The finding part is over. The choice to follow the Truth and to reaffirm the Truth in others is yours.

 

Take care and may your lives be filled with peace and love.

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#51 Old 04-10-2014, 01:48 PM
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Veganism includes people with thorny personality issues, sometimes connected to autism, who connect on a deep level with animals while other people give them the hives. It includes people with eating disorders, people with wide and fierce militant streaks, people who live virtually as hermits. It includes glowering teenagers who sit silently through Thanksgiving dinners while putting nothing at all on their plates. It has people in leadership positions carrying on public feuds with other people in leadership positions. No one of these people speaks for all vegans, and most vegans aren't much like any of them. The thing is, whatever mainstream vegans decide is the best way to deal with public negative misperception of vegans, these more eccentric vegans pretty much won't get the memo.

 

 

I haven't been on this forum for a while but that made me laugh.:lol:

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#52 Old 04-12-2014, 06:53 AM
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U
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#53 Old 05-01-2014, 04:47 PM
 
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Second, from personal experience, I've found that by quietly teaching by example, you can attract more flies with honey than vinegar.

oh yes :)

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#54 Old 05-01-2014, 05:29 PM
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To mangle St. Francis here:

 

Teach veganism always.  If necessary, use words.

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"It is far better to be happy than to have your bodies act as graveyards for animals. Accordingly, the apostle Matthew partook of seeds, nuts and vegetables, without flesh"- Clement of Alexandria
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