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#1 Old 09-20-2013, 09:09 AM
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Are you specialist? Do you pust human suffering before animal suffering?

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#2 Old 09-20-2013, 09:20 AM
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Are you specialist? Do you pust human suffering before animal suffering?

 

Perhaps before I, or anybody else answers your questions, you could give us your views on speciesism H? 

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#3 Old 09-20-2013, 09:52 AM
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I don't put human suffering before the suffering of all nonhuman species, but I do put some human, and some nonhuman, suffering before the suffering of some nonhuman species.

 

For instance, I have no qualms about killing fleas, mites, ticks and other parasites. I rank the lives of different species differently. I also value the lives of the individuals in my care/to whom I have a personal emotional connection above the lives of individuals I don't know, no matter the species.

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#4 Old 09-20-2013, 10:39 AM
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Perhaps before I, or anybody else answers your questions, you could give us your views on speciesism H? 



. I value the non-suffering of sentient animals equally.

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#5 Old 09-20-2013, 11:02 AM
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I am. I can't help it, really. I'm not speciest in the way you mention it, though. I place some nomhumans above some other nomhumans. Fleas, ticks, mosquitos, for example, I kill with no regard because they make nonhumans in my care uncomfortable.

I also, generally, like some animals more than others. If I'm watching a nature show and a shark or orca is taking out prey, I root for the predator. Unless they are going after penguins.

Human nature places values on things we like vs. Dont like. Just because I value penguins over herring in a prey situation doesn't mean I want the herring to undergo unnecessary suffering.
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#6 Old 09-20-2013, 11:38 AM
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. I value the non-suffering of sentient animals equally.

 

So you let fleas live on your dogs? Or do you  not consider fleas to be sentient?

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#7 Old 09-20-2013, 12:20 PM
 
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I don't consider fleas to be sentient, however, I would only kill them for the reason that a domesticated animal is in my care and I owe it to them to care for them. I am their pack and will look after them as need be.
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#8 Old 09-20-2013, 12:44 PM
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As a practical matter, I only kill fleas, ticks and mites that are interfering with the animals in my care. If I could kill them in a more general area and thereby protect wildlife from them, without harming beneficial insects, I would, though. They cause a great deal of suffering among mammals and birds generally.

 

So, yes, I do definitely discriminate among species.

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#9 Old 09-20-2013, 01:03 PM
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Yup, I'm speciesist (or whatever the word is).  

 

I would put most non-human animals ahead of fish because I find them freaky (an incident with a pool of hungry koi carp mentally scarred me for life!).  Because I love rats and other rodents I would save them in preference to a lizard or snake.  I would never knowingly do harm to any creature though, I don't even swat flies these days.

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#10 Old 09-20-2013, 01:46 PM
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It really depends and fluctuates for me. My major is social work and sometimes I feel great knowing that I'm going into a field where I can do so much good and inspire so many people to improve their lives....but at the same time, I wonder why I'm going to help people, when people are the source of most of the issues on this planet. It's like everday I hear about problems that humans cause. Just today, my sci professor lectured about how human activity has harmed estuaries and created black, gunky areas. Depsicable. Worse that no one in the class seem phased or cared =/ I'd rather be working for a vegan non profit, and I may, but I think my consensus was that I'd get this degree out of the way first and kinda of use this as way to pay for a decent living and do animal rights stuff the rest of the time. I still advocate for animals as much as I can. Even in college now, I think I have upped my game a bit. I now talk to more people and tell them about meatless, monday, the veg group on campus. I having dining guides for vegetarians handy as well as the compassionate choices booklet. I'm trying to do a more one on one approach with people this year abecause we do group leafletting a few times a year.

 

Do I put human suffering before animal suffering? Sometimes. Depends on what type of suffering and I could go into a whole ethical debate but overall I try not to really speciesist. I don't kill any critters either, or even mosquitos around me, I usually just blow them off. My sci professor today told us that in our labs next time we would be doing an experiment to see how salinity affects snails.........now, I didn't catch whether we were working with living or just fictional snails, but if it's live snails, I'm leaving.


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#11 Old 09-20-2013, 07:31 PM
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So you let fleas live on your dogs? Or do you  not consider fleas to be sentient?

Every animal has the right to self defence. My dogs get injections which stop the fleas from biting (and more importantly the ticks) ticks will kill a dog or cat given enough of them.

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#12 Old 09-20-2013, 07:32 PM
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I don't consider fleas to be sentient, however, I would only kill them for the reason that a domesticated animal is in my care and I owe it to them to care for them. I am their pack and will look after them as need be.

I agree on both those points. I have s special responsibility to 'My pack' they would give their life for me I owe them a great deal.

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#13 Old 09-20-2013, 07:34 PM
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Lets just narrow this down to avoid the are fleas etc sentient.

 

Are you speciesist against other Mammals?

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#14 Old 09-20-2013, 08:24 PM
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Every animal has the right to self defence. My dogs get injections which stop the fleas from biting (and more importantly the ticks) ticks will kill a dog or cat given enough of them.

I agree. I think it's a particularly fuzzy headed kind of thinking some veg*ns have, when they are reluctant to protect the animals in their care from parasites. If you can't bring yourself to do what's necessary for the health of animals in your care, then don't take on the responsibility.

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#15 Old 09-20-2013, 08:40 PM
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Lets just narrow this down to avoid the are fleas etc sentient.

 

Are you speciesist against other Mammals?

 

Do I think that the suffering of a mouse is less significant than the suffering of a human? No, I don't.

 

If I saw a mouse and a cat in peril of their lives, and I could only save one, would I pick one based on its species? I'm pretty confident I would pick the cat every time. Every cat I look at reminds me of a cat I have loved, so yes, I give them species preference. Same thing with a dog and a mouse.

 

I don't know where that puts me on the speciesism spectrum, and I'm O.K. with that.

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#16 Old 09-20-2013, 08:42 PM
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Do I think that the suffering of a mouse is less significant than the suffering of a human? No, I don't.

If I saw a mouse and a cat in peril of their lives, and I could only save one, would I pick one based on its species? I'm pretty confident I would pick the cat every time. Every cat I look at reminds me of a cat I have loved, so yes, I give them species preference. Same thing with a dog and a mouse.

I don't know where that puts me on the speciesism spectrum, and I'm O.K. with that.

I agree with this.

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#17 Old 09-21-2013, 12:22 AM
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Do I think that the suffering of a mouse is less significant than the suffering of a human? No, I don't.

 

If I saw a mouse and a cat in peril of their lives, and I could only save one, would I pick one based on its species? I'm pretty confident I would pick the cat every time. Every cat I look at reminds me of a cat I have loved, so yes, I give them species preference. Same thing with a dog and a mouse.

 

I don't know where that puts me on the speciesism spectrum, and I'm O.K. with that.

If its one or the other then I don't see an issue. It just comes down to preference. What I am really concerned with is Human versus animals.

 

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#18 Old 09-21-2013, 03:27 AM
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If its one or the other then I don't see an issue. It just comes down to preference. What I am really concerned with is Human versus animals.
 

 

The human comes first if I like or love them, though it would be a very tough choice between a much loved pet and someone I just happen to be acquainted with.  I suspect the pet would win out ...

 

If it's someone I despise then they will have to get in line behind the fish, snakes, fleas etc.

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#19 Old 09-21-2013, 03:40 AM
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The human comes first if I like or love them, though it would be a very tough choice between a much loved pet and someone I just happen to be acquainted with.  I suspect the pet would win out ...

 

If it's someone I despise then they will have to get in line behind the fish, snakes, fleas etc.



I agree other than

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though it would be a very tough choice between a much loved pet and someone I just happen to be acquainted with

 

Really?  why is this a tough choice?

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#20 Old 09-21-2013, 03:47 AM
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Really?  why is this a tough choice?

 

Conditioning I guess.  Society has conditioned us to put humans before animals for so many years that it might be an automatic response.  Thinking about it again though, there are very few people (basically immediate family) who would win out over my past pets.  

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#21 Old 09-21-2013, 06:46 AM
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Conditioning I guess.  Society has conditioned us to put humans before animals for so many years that it might be an automatic response.  Thinking about it again though, there are very few people (basically immediate family) who would win out over my past pets.  

Good answer.

I agree.

 

If we are not speciesist then we have to try and overcome such conditioning. Humans ARE animals and deserve our care too but only insomuch as we care for animals.

 

I am a full supporter of socialized medicine but i would extend that to all animals too. I also don;t agree with freedom of choice to be a vegan. I think it should be compulsory.

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#22 Old 09-21-2013, 01:25 PM
 
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You know what if it was one of my girls (dogs) or a human I would certainly choose my dogs but to be fair I would be straight back in to try and rescue the human after.

Reminds me of a discussion I had at work....... If there was a terrorist attack would you be willing to risk your life to save two other people? I got called weird for saying I would like to think if the situation arose I would risk my life to save ONE other person who was unable to save themselves.
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#23 Old 09-21-2013, 02:55 PM
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I am a full supporter of socialized medicine but i would extend that to all animals too.

 

How many non-human animals would you personally be willing to provide socialised medicine for? There's trillions of 'em out there.

 

 
 I also don;t agree with freedom of choice to be a vegan. I think it should be compulsory.

 

Do we get a vote on this?

 

If we do, then with so few vegans and so many omnis, your thought has little chance of becoming reality.

 

If we don't get a vote, then who enforces veganism?

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#24 Old 09-21-2013, 03:40 PM
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If we don't get a vote, then who enforces veganism?

 

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#25 Old 09-21-2013, 04:20 PM
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#26 Old 09-21-2013, 07:45 PM
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How many non-human animals would you personally be willing to provide socialised medicine for? There's trillions of 'em out there.

 

 

Do we get a vote on this?

 

If we do, then with so few vegans and so many omnis, your thought has little chance of becoming reality.

 

If we don't get a vote, then who enforces veganism?



Ones we can do something about. I don't see much surgery being done on fruit flies. essentially it would be vastly better funding the RSPCA and teh blue cross and various othyer rescue centres so that no animal was ever turned away.


Do you get a vote on this? Obviously you do in Democratic countries. It has little chance of becoming reality -unfortunately true but what I think ought to happen and what will happen in the short term are two entirely different things.

HOWEVER. WIth the advent of in vitro meat, fake egss etc we will soon have a large influential group of people who will be able to eat 'Meat' but that does not involve animal suffering.Given the chance to be self righteous most people will do so (Its one of the few pleasures that I savour into my middle years), regulations of killing animals will become stricter and stricter leading to increases in price and eventually a minority of people will be meat eaters and the practice will be banned- timescale I don;t know but I would guess under a hundred years.

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#27 Old 09-21-2013, 10:05 PM
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I'm surprised at how many of you are saying you're speciesist. I always understood speciesist to mean that you value humans above other animals and by that definition I am definitely not.

I dont normally kill bugs but if there was an infestation I would be forced to do what it took to get rid of them. This doesnt mean that I dont value their lives though. If someone broke into my house and attacked me I would kill them too if I had no choice. It has nothing to do with species but rather protecting myself.

If I had to pick between saving my cat or a human I didnt know I would pick my cat but at the same time I would also save my friend over an animal I didnt know. Species has nothing to do with it. I would make the choice based on who I cared about most.

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#28 Old 09-22-2013, 01:46 AM
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I'm surprised at how many of you are saying you're speciesist. I always understood speciesist to mean that you value humans above other animals

 

You're absolutely right.  

 

I have a habit, however, of thinking of speciesism as being inequality between all the different species rather than just the basic "human animals vs non-human animals".  Lots of people will be biased towards one species vs another so I personally don't see it as being that clear cut.  Homocentric is a better word to describe it in my opinion.

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#29 Old 09-22-2013, 09:29 AM
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I dont normally kill bugs but if there was an infestation I would be forced to do what it took to get rid of them. This doesnt mean that I dont value their lives though. If someone broke into my house and attacked me I would kill them too if I had no choice. It has nothing to do with species but rather protecting myself.

 

Isn't that similar to being speciesist though? You're comparing a minor animal transgression to a severe human transgression and putting them as equal, giving them equally grave consequences. If you have an infestation of ants then that may be annoying or inconvenient, but it's not going to kill you. At most the ants are being annoying pests. That's in no way comparable to the other example you gave of a human actively attacking you (which would very much be a threat to your health and life). So isn't that still speciesist? Killing a non-human animal for a far less crime than killing a human. That's treating the non-human animal life of lesser worth than the human life.


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#30 Old 09-22-2013, 02:35 PM
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Isn't that similar to being speciesist though? You're comparing a minor animal transgression to a severe human transgression and putting them as equal, giving them equally grave consequences. If you have an infestation of ants then that may be annoying or inconvenient, but it's not going to kill you. At most the ants are being annoying pests. That's in no way comparable to the other example you gave of a human actively attacking you (which would very much be a threat to your health and life). So isn't that still speciesist? Killing a non-human animal for a far less crime than killing a human. That's treating the non-human animal life of lesser worth than the human life.

 Ya its definitely a tough one. I guess I am comparing them because I would feel as though I had no choice in both situations. If there was any other way of getting rid of the infestation I would but if it was very severe and I had no other option then I could either move out or kill them myself and they would end up dead either way because no doubt the next person who moved in would have them exterminated. I couldnt live with them because I am way too scared of them lol. I wouldn't let a bunch of scary looking  humans live in my house either.

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