Best and Worst countries/ Cultures for Animal rights. - VeggieBoards
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#1 Old 01-04-2013, 04:13 AM
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Best: Hindu Indians or Perhaps some Northern European country.

 

Worst: China and Vietnam.

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#2 Old 01-04-2013, 06:58 AM
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Average meat consumption per capita

You're probably right about India, if only because of the prevalence of vegetarianism and veganism. I'm not sure if China and Vietnam are any worse in terms of animal rights than any Western country (I have seen the way chickens are often kept in East Asia, but I've also seen battery farms in the UK), and considering that the average meat consumption in both is about 1/3 that in the US, this probably means that the US wins out as being the worst for animal rights.

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#3 Old 01-04-2013, 08:52 AM
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Average meat consumption per capita

 

270 lbs per person annually in the U.S. So sad.

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#4 Old 01-04-2013, 01:06 PM
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P.S: it's also worth considering dairy. Milk and cheese are almost unheard of in China and Vietnam, since most of the population are intolerant, whereas the US is one of the top dairy consumers (behind a smattering of Northern and Eastern European countries):

Milk consumption per capita

Since dairy involves the long-term imprisonment and torture of cows, I'd say we in the Western world are far, far crueller to animals than in Asian countries.



(Egg consumption is roughly the same)

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#5 Old 01-04-2013, 09:39 PM
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Best: Hindu Indians or Perhaps some Northern European country.

 

Worst: China and Vietnam.

the doctrine of ahimsa is also found in buddhism and jainism. it's kind of weird to single out china and vietnam with their low per capita meat consumption. I'm not sure if you're serious though. should this thread be in the fun n games section?

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#6 Old 01-04-2013, 11:37 PM
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P.S: it's also worth considering dairy. Milk and cheese are almost unheard of in China and Vietnam, since most of the population are intolerant, whereas the US is one of the top dairy consumers (behind a smattering of Northern and Eastern European countries):
Milk consumption per capita
Since dairy involves the long-term imprisonment and torture of cows, I'd say we in the Western world are far, far crueller to animals than in Asian countries.
(Egg consumption is roughly the same)


I don't know about Vietnam but in China, dairy is everywhere, now. Lots of people eat yoghurts, all children drink milk, ice creams (such as those found at dairy queen) are immensely popular all year long.  Milk teas and lattes are quite big hits too and every supermarket I've been to stocks cheese and butter.

Yes, people have trouble digesting them but that has never prevented someone from eating anything here. If anything, they tend to think that people who don't eat something because of allergies or intolerances are picky eaters. They eat dairy and they love it. :( (and propaganda having caught up, at last, they are even persuaded that it's healthy)

 

So no, dairy has become an issue here as well. :(

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#7 Old 01-05-2013, 05:49 AM
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 it's kind of weird to single out china and vietnam with their low per capita meat consumption. I'm not sure if you're serious though. should this thread be in the fun n games section?

 


Don't patronise me.I'm not the nicest person at the best of times.I'm deadly serious

Its not just about per capita consumption. At least Western countries have rules about treatment of animals. the chinese and vietnamese torture animals to death for fun beacuse it makes then 'taste better'. Much as I reject all forms of abuse killing a free range animal with a single bolt to the brain is miles away ion cruelty from pinning a pig by its snout on a hook whilst alive  or beating a dog to death slowly and painfully. If you can't understand this difference then you are a XXXXXXX XXXXX or just another naive radical who thinkls that having read a bit of chomsky makes you an expert on the world. I live and work in east Asia  and I have lived teh world over.

I realise that some of you are on some 'lets just bash our own culture' kick. It doesn;t do animals any good at all.

Contro likes this.
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#8 Old 01-05-2013, 11:26 AM
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Don't patronise me.I'm not the nicest person at the best of times.I'm deadly serious

Its not just about per capita consumption. At least Western countries have rules about treatment of animals. the chinese and vietnamese torture animals to death for fun beacuse it makes then 'taste better'. Much as I reject all forms of abuse killing a free range animal with a single bolt to the brain is miles away ion cruelty from pinning a pig by its snout on a hook whilst alive  or beating a dog to death slowly and painfully. If you can't understand this difference then you are a XXXXXXX XXXXX or just another naive radical who thinkls that having read a bit of chomsky makes you an expert on the world. I live and work in east Asia  and I have lived teh world over.

I realise that some of you are on some 'lets just bash our own culture' kick. It doesn;t do animals any good at all.

rolleyes.gif some chest pounding.

 

well i might have mentioned spain as a place with high per capita meat consumption and a poor record of animal welfare protection with a notable failure in the case of bullfighting. china and vietnam have a lot of work to do on human right much less animal rights.


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#9 Old 01-05-2013, 11:39 AM
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rolleyes.gif some chest pounding.

 

well i might have mentioned spain as a place with high per capita meat consumption and a poor record of animal welfare protection with a notable failure in the case of bullfighting. china and vietnam have a lot of work to do on human right much less animal rights.

 

If we're talking about cruel foods - Foie gras!

 

It's banned now, but ortolan was pretty horrific too. A subspecies of lark, forcefed in the dark (or possibly blinded), drowned in brandy (maybe not drowned that well) and then roasted (possibly alive).

 

I mean, this isn't just cruelty as a by-product of desensitization, this is cruelty by design.

 

:(


I always wonder about people who say they "love" animals, but continue to eat meat. If that's your idea of love, I question what sort of twisted world view you must have.

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#10 Old 01-05-2013, 02:46 PM
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Its not just about per capita consumption. At least Western countries have rules about treatment of animals. the chinese and vietnamese torture animals to death for fun beacuse it makes then 'taste better'.

You hear of that happening here, too, despite our laws. Besides which, our laws often seem to me to be a token gesture; there's absolutely nothing humane about any of the farms or slaughterhouses I've ever seen - and most meat is factory farmed anyway.
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I don't know about Vietnam but in China, dairy is everywhere, now. Lots of people eat yoghurts, all children drink milk, ice creams (such as those found at dairy queen) are immensely popular all year long. Milk teas and lattes are quite big hits too and every supermarket I've been to stocks cheese and butter.

That's weird, I thought around 90% of people were lactose intolerant? Shows what a good bit of propaganda can do, I suppose...

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#11 Old 01-05-2013, 03:02 PM
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Germany is pretty high up there in terms of animal welfare laws. "In Germany, legislation has expressed the responsibility of human beings to protect animals."

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#12 Old 01-06-2013, 11:48 AM
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well i might have mentioned spain as a place with high per capita meat consumption and a poor record of animal welfare protection with a notable failure in the case of bullfighting. china and vietnam have a lot of work to do on human right much less animal rights.

 




For an EU highly developed country Spain is an utter disgrace. Just look up 'Galagos abuse' not to mention the endless festivals where they abuse different animals. Ill expemp[t the Catalunyans from this - they banned bullfighting and seem a far more civilised bunch

 

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You hear of that happening here, too, despite our laws.

 




yes and its criminal and underground which makes it vastly less prevalent

 

Quote:
Besides which, our laws often seem to me to be a token gesture; there's absolutely nothing humane about any of the farms or slaughterhouses I've ever seen - and most meat is factory 

 

 

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farmed anyway.

 


Let me Guess. You are an American

 

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Germany, Switzerland and the UK are probably the top animal rights countries

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#13 Old 01-06-2013, 06:51 PM
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yes and its criminal and underground which makes it vastly less prevalent

Fair enough, although I don't think it's the norm in any country (or I hope not)
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Let me Guess. You are an American

Nope, I'm English, and grew up surrounded by farms. Technically an arable area, which in practice means a moderate number of "free range" meat farms; also enough chicken batteries and pig "concentration camps" (I call them that because that's what they look like) to make me extremely pessimistic of the efficacy of our laws.

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#14 Old 01-07-2013, 03:20 AM
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|So you aren't actually comparing it to anywhere else. You are just saying 'this looks bad so It must be the worst in the world'  Not very impressive.

 Actually Battery farms for chickens are now illegal in the UK  but don't let that bother you. We will never get anywhere while people refuse to make proper comparisons. What is the point of campaigning for changes when people like you just state there is no difference when we win?

 

At some point in the medium future fake meat will become cheaper than real meat and the whole business will be turned on its head. Until then we have to campaign for the most ethical means of raising animals possible (whilst also spreading veganism).




 

Quote:
Fair enough, although I don't think it's the norm in any country (or I hope not)

 


It IS THE NORM in china and Vietnam. I live on their doorstep. I was in china 4 weeks ago and will be again in two weeks time.
 

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#15 Old 01-07-2013, 07:28 AM
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The traditional Asian diet is mostly vegetarian. Simply stated, meat and poultry was not affordable. Western influence and new prosperity has increased the consumption of meat and poultry. It is considered a status symbol similar to buying brand name clothes or an expensive car. India's population is 40% vegetarian, but the percentage is dropping as more affluent young Indians are adopting the so-called, "Western diet." 

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#16 Old 01-08-2013, 03:24 AM
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'The traditional Asian diet' wow you can some up the worlds largest landmass and the bulk of the worlds population with a simple statement and then blame the west.

The traditional western diet was also mostly vegetarian until we became weathier it is little  to do with trying to be western and everything to do with people doing what they have always done which is to eat as much meat as they can. Now they are wealthier they can eat more. 

Spent a long time in Asia have you? I live there..


You of course have a link with a proper peer reviewed study showing these Indians who are abandoning vegetarianism.

 

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#17 Old 01-08-2013, 06:24 AM
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Don't patronise me.I'm not the nicest person at the best of times.I'm deadly serious



I realise that some of you are on some 'lets just bash our own culture' kick. It doesn;t do animals any good at all.

 

Dude,lighten up a little.  Your not here to battle with like minded people,were all here for the same reasons.

 

Have a great day...Frame.

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#18 Old 01-09-2013, 03:53 AM
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'lighten up a little' is an order. It may sound all hippy but its in the imperative none the less.

Sorry but I find the animal holocaust so utterly horrendous that I cannot' lighten up.' and nor do I want to.

 

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#19 Old 01-09-2013, 08:13 AM
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'lighten up a little' is an order. It may sound all hippy but its in the imperative none the less.

Sorry but I find the animal holocaust so utterly horrendous that I cannot' lighten up.' and nor do I want to.

 

It looks to me that frame69 was making a suggestion to you in a friendly tone and you have chosen to respond negatively. Yes, terrible things are happening out there but being grumpy with each other will not make the world a better place. If you want to carry on being confrontational in your postings, I will put you on IGNORE. sad.gif

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#20 Old 01-10-2013, 03:13 AM
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t looks to me that frame69 was making a suggestion to you in a friendly tone and you have chosen to respond negatively. Yes, terrible things are happening out there but being grumpy with each other will not make the world a better place. If you want to carry on being confrontational in your postings, I will put you on IGNORE. 

 


You are always welcome to put me on ignore .  I do not being like to be ordered to 'lighten up' by anyone. Using the imperative is self evidently an order.' Lighten up' is a form of passive aggression. It looks all friendly but the reality is that it is just an order,

I would invite you to look up the term 'Stoic'. There is no imperative but it might illuminate my attitutude.

I don't respond to orders unless a Moderator requests me via PM (if they do it publicly then I treat it as an attempt to humilliate).

I also respond to threats with acceptance. You do as you will.  Of course if you wish to ignore me just push the button. Loudly telling me that you are ignoring me just looks like a 6 year old with their fingers in their ears shouting 'I'm not listening'.

As long as people repeat the 'blame the west for everything mantra'  which so empoweres abusers from outside the west then ill oppose it,

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#21 Old 01-10-2013, 10:52 AM
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IDK, I lived in Southeast Asia all over for 3 years and traveled to China, There didn't seem to be as much meat eating there as there is in Europe or the good ole US of A. Most dishes traditionally contain a rice and veggie with a tiny amount of meat. If any. Their meat was skinny and bony, full of cartilage- it is obvious most I saw was more "free range" type.

Although it has been 13 years, maybe things have gotten more "western" over there.

I don't know how you judge "best and worst" what parameters you have set- it is kind of objective. Have you done any studies to back this or can you reference any or is this just your opinion?

In my opinion, due to the sheer volume of meat produced- Western countries would seem more cruel to me, because the high numbers of lives lost and the treatment of the animals during the time that they are held. I know that the laws are lax in some rural areas of Southeast Asia, but cruelty laws are strictly enforced in largely populated areas. That is pretty much the same for any country.
 


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#22 Old 01-10-2013, 11:18 AM
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You are always welcome to put me on ignore .  I do not being like to be ordered to 'lighten up' by anyone. Using the imperative is self evidently an order.' Lighten up' is a form of passive aggression. It looks all friendly but the reality is that it is just an order,

I would invite you to look up the term 'Stoic'. There is no imperative but it might illuminate my attitutude.

I don't respond to orders unless a Moderator requests me via PM (if they do it publicly then I treat it as an attempt to humilliate).

I also respond to threats with acceptance. You do as you will.  Of course if you wish to ignore me just push the button. Loudly telling me that you are ignoring me just looks like a 6 year old with their fingers in their ears shouting 'I'm not listening'.

As long as people repeat the 'blame the west for everything mantra'  which so empoweres abusers from outside the west then ill oppose it,

Houndulation.

 

I threaten nobody. I just politely tell them that if they choose to be continuously confrontational in their postings, then I will choose to ignore them. I thought that the name of the 'button' that activates this was 'IGNORE'. In fact I now see it is termed 'Block Member'. Please accept my apologies for the full capitalisation which has led you to misunderstand the tone of that part of my message and which has obviously affected you. I'm sure that in your posting #14 above where you say 'It IS THE NORM....', you weren't intending to act 'like a 6 year old' either!

 

Anyway, I wish you every success for your future postings houndulation, even though I won't be reading them and I would invite you to have a nice day .thumbsup.gif

 

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#23 Old 01-10-2013, 09:49 PM
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As long as people repeat the 'blame the west for everything mantra'  which so empoweres abusers from outside the west then ill oppose it,

I feel I should point out that this was never my intention. My point was that, in the West, triple the number of animals [per person] are kept in slightly better conditions; to me, this is not a win for animal rights.

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#24 Old 01-11-2013, 05:10 AM
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I know that the laws are lax in some rural areas of China, but cruelty laws are strictly enforced in largely populated areas. That is pretty much the same for any country.

 



 Mollycakes:

That is a complete fabrication. It never fails to astound me how people think they can just get away with making things up. There are NO Chinese anti cruelty laws other than those dealing with endangered species which was brought in in 2009.

Why did you just lie to me? 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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I feel I should point out that this was never my intention. My point was that, in the West, triple the number of animals [per person] are kept in slightly better conditions; to me, this is not a win for animal rights.

 

I didn't call it a win.  The fight for animal rights will be one in a series of small battles. The West is way beyond the far east in Animal rights legislation and awareness. the ONLY thing keeping the far east from eating as much meat as we do is finances- something that is changing daily.

 

Whilst we have constantly evolving legislation the Far East is 2 centuries behind us. We have gotten rid of battery farming in the UK. That is vastly better than before. We have to push the general acceptance ,next, that meat is to be avoided, then all dairy products. It will take time.

There is legal deliberate cruelty in china and it is growing.

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#25 Old 01-11-2013, 06:20 AM
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 Mollycakes:

That is a complete fabrication. It never fails to astound me how people think they can just get away with making things up. There are NO Chinese anti cruelty laws other than those dealing with endangered species which was brought in in 2009.

Why did you just lie to me? 

 

 


 

 

 

 

Holy crap- you are really on a rampage grin.gif  Chill hun! I come in peace!

My apologies sincerely for typing China instead of Southeast Asia, which is what I meant to type. I will edit my post, I didn't re-read it after I wrote it. I have two toddlers climbing all over me most of the day. Although China has propositioned Anti-Cruelty laws several times- last time in 2010 it was proposed. It hasn't passed yet. I do know this.

I'm still curious if this is your opinion or based on some study. Because I would like to read about it.

 

 

edit to add:  I just found that Malaysia (where I lived the longest) is stiffening up their cruelty laws- http://malaysianlaw.my/news/more-bite-for-laws-against-those-who-abuse-animals-22004.html      that makes me so happy! They are also one of the most vegan friendly countries in the world. I should go back and visit there!


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#26 Old 01-14-2013, 04:26 AM
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My apologies sincerely for typing China instead of Southeast Asia, which is what I meant to type. I will edit my post, I didn't re-read it after I wrote it. I have two toddlers climbing all over me most of the day. Although China has propositioned Anti-Cruelty laws several times- last time in 2010 it was proposed. It hasn't passed yet. I do know this.

 

Ok but be carefull. There are a number of people so desparate to blame the west for things they just make **** up whenever it suits their arguments. All of SE asia has bad laws but some are vastly worse.

 



South East Asia has varying laws. Thailand has no anti cruelty laws, we have to bust dog smugglers on 'illegal export of goods' laws.

a Group of Chinese Academics have called for laws. There are none about to happen
I'm still curious if this is your opinion or based on some study. Because I would like to read about it.

Im and activist based in Thailand. 

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#27 Old 01-14-2013, 10:18 PM
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Ok but be carefull.

or Is Houndulation gunna have ta choke a *****?


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#28 Old 01-14-2013, 11:41 PM
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Why would you focus on cruelty laws anyways? Is a society with no homicide and no laws against homicide worse than a society with homicides and laws against homicide? When most animals were raised on small farms, etc in the US there weren't any animal cruelty laws either....yet I reckon the animals back then were treated better, on average, than they are today.

Blaming the west is my default position. Seems to work pretty well most of the time moonpie.gif
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#29 Old 01-15-2013, 04:13 AM
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Why would you focus on cruelty laws anyways? Is a society with no homicide and no laws against homicide worse than a society with homicides and laws against homicide? When most animals were raised on small farms, etc in the US there weren't any animal cruelty laws either....yet I reckon the animals back then were treated better, on average, than they are today.

 




Which is this society with no homicides? Please name it or just invent one (which seems to be pretty standard practice amongst anti westerners)

 

Quote:
Blaming the west is my default position. Seems to work pretty well most of the time

 


For you perhaps, but then not for the animals. But then you never were very keen on the actual animals were you. You are a 'purist' vegan. More concerned about telling others what they can and cannot whether or not it harms animals.

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#30 Old 01-15-2013, 04:15 AM
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or Is Houndulation gunna have ta choke a *****?

 

 

You obviously have never seen a ***** being choked. Unfortunately I have seen a female dog being strung up by its neck to be beaten to death. Isaved that one by applying violence to the perpetrators. perhaps you could have had a little demonstration or pretended it wasn't happening.

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