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#391 Old 02-28-2013, 11:02 AM
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Objections based on the killing of male baby chicks make better emotional than logical sense to me. On VB, except in context of sanctuaries or rescues, we don't talk about saving animals so much as sparing them a life of suffering and filth. Sparing them from being born into the factory farm food cycle. That being the case, for an industry chick to die at the very beginning of his life is the next-best thing to not having hatched at all. The more miserable his sisters' lives as egg-layers, the luckier he is to have been killed at the outset.

The killing of male chicks is immoral just as the exploitation of the females for eggs is immoral. They are both wrong. Who cares which group is "luckier" when both acts are immoral? The next best thing to not being hatched at all is not being ground up alive or thrown out like garbage. I'd say that the best thing to do would be to care for them in sanctuaries.


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#392 Old 02-28-2013, 12:18 PM
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The killing of male chicks is immoral just as the exploitation of the females for eggs is immoral. They are both wrong. Who cares which group is "luckier" when both acts are immoral? The next best thing to not being hatched at all is not being ground up alive or thrown out like garbage. I'd say that the best thing to do would be to care for them in sanctuaries.

Yes, I am familiar with the position of animal rights vegans. I believe that is at the heart of AR heartburn with Ellen Degeneres and her recent disclosure. And remember, my remarks on the "luckier" chicks were a lead-in to a description of my friends' chickens, none of whom are killed at birth all of whom live as comfortably as they would at any sanctuary while they're alive, and most of the hens living well past their egg-laying years. Hard to pin much immorality on that situation, aside from how people may feel about omnivores eating meat.

 

For Degeneres, and for countless others who were convinced to stop eggs and dairy by learning about cruelty in the industry, it's really all about the cruelty. That's what you get when you use Earthlings as a recruiting tool: you get people moved by the cruelty, but not necessarily by the principle that all use of animals is inherently immoral. Vegan recruitment can look like one big bait-and-switch if that second principle is not communicated extraordinarily well. "Extraordinarily well" doesn't mean raking a beloved figure such as Ellen Degeneres over the coals for not being one with the abolitionist arm of the vegan movement. Especially since, even when she was a practicing vegan, she had never allied herself with it.

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#393 Old 03-01-2013, 12:51 PM
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I agree.  The question "Is Ellen DeGeneres's attitude regarding animal rights correct and proper?" should be secondary to the question "Is the audience's attitude regarding Ellen DeGeneres correct and proper?"


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#394 Old 03-01-2013, 09:01 PM
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Originally Posted by luvourmother View PostThe same thing as when she said eggs.  I point this out bc i also get eggs from an old neighbor with hens.  I feed them to my dogs and my partner eats eggs.  I do not eat them myself and am still vegan, yet like Ellen I can technically say "we get eggs" too. I cannot assume Ellen eats eggs she gets bc she didn't actually say she eats them.

 

How wonderful that you can justify the whole thing like that!  

 

That's just fabulous.

 

You are an exceptional vegan.  

 

Just like Ellen  :)

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#395 Old 03-01-2013, 09:36 PM
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Originally Posted by luvourmother View PostThe same thing as when she said eggs.  I point this out bc i also get eggs from an old neighbor with hens.  I feed them to my dogs and my partner eats eggs.  I do not eat them myself and am still vegan, yet like Ellen I can technically say "we get eggs" too. I cannot assume Ellen eats eggs she gets bc she didn't actually say she eats them.

 

How wonderful that you can justify the whole thing like that!  

 

That's just fabulous.

 

You are an exceptional vegan.  

 

Just like Ellen  :)

You are so lucky to be such a perfect vegan that you can judge other vegans' actions. Keep up the good work!
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#396 Old 03-02-2013, 12:30 PM
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Well put, Joan.  There are certainly many vegans here who don't do half as much for animals than Ellen does, regardless of her food choices.

 

Labels are meaningless.

 

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You are so lucky to be such a perfect vegan that you can judge other vegans' actions. Keep up the good work!

 

 

Jimmy james isn't judgemental (judging from other posts!)

I don't think it was sarcasm


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#397 Old 03-14-2013, 06:43 PM
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Silva yes, I'm not judgemental at all and I am far from perfect.  Part of what bothers me about forums like this is the amount of fuss that is often devoted to things like trace ingredients but yet we often overlook the overall good that people do.  If Ellen eats eggs that's fine with me.  Why debate the fine points of her diet when overall she does so much good work otherwise?  Why are vegans always so keen to cut off their nose to spite their face?

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#398 Old 06-03-2013, 10:48 AM
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I despise vegetarian-shaming, and the fact that the management here allows this sort of nonsense to take place in any part of the forum is just sad.  Last I checked this board was supposed to be a safe haven for vegetarians but oddly enough, I get more support from my omni friends than I do from some vegans.  Am I the only person to see something terribly wrong with this?  I would imagine that the majority of vegans were vegetarian at some point during their transition anyway, so this sort of shaming is not just counter-productive... it's hypocritical.  Do the vegans who start threads like these not see that they're causing more harm than good to their cause?

 

Same here. My omni friends are very supportive and many people like to ask questions. Most are quite polite. Some people have even started meat-free Mondays :) I believe every bit helps and making small gradual changes helps a lot! But when I speak to vegans they tend to talk down to me and make me feel bad for being vegetarian which wasn't very easy choice to make. Even now 2 years later it's still hard especially in this meat loving country. I thought vegans were supposed to be these gentle and compassionate people but I suppose some just save that for non-humans only.

 

I do love the vegans who lead by example. Just this evening I had a vegan curry pie for supper :D Soya, peas, onions, potatoes yummmm. It was non GMO too. I am a vegetarian but I eat lots of vegan meals as well. They are sometimes very processed though so they are not always the more nutritious option. I do see that vegan options are becoming more readily available where I live so it is becoming easier it's just taking a while.

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#399 Old 06-04-2013, 02:46 AM
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I thought vegans were supposed to be these gentle and compassionate people but I suppose some just save that for non-humans only.

 

 

Yes, I don't understand vegans who are kind to animals but not so nice to fellow humans. I'm sure that's not what Donald Watson intended when he set up the Vegan Society (UK) nearly 70 years ago. 

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#400 Old 06-04-2013, 10:45 AM
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Yes, I don't understand vegans who are kind to animals but not so nice to fellow humans. I'm sure that's not what Donald Watson intended when he set up the Vegan Society (UK) nearly 70 years ago. 

 

I don't think he intended anything about if humans are "nice" (which is a very relative thing) to other humans.  Veganism has a specific definition, and has nothing to say about if you're a "nice person."  I've met vegans who are jerks and I don't consider them any less vegan, they just happen to be jerks.  

 

I think we've had this discussion before, but I've seen on this very forum people saying that "cheating on your spouse isn't vegan."  If you start trying to label human interactions as vegan or not, then veganism becomes so relative, contentious, and watered down that it doesn't mean much.  I guess I wouldn't consider republicans vegan, if I were going by some standard of "niceness to other humans."  That cuts out a lot of potential vegans.

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#401 Old 06-04-2013, 01:44 PM
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I've just always thought of vegans as people who have compassion for ALL living things and also as people who are more gentle. So when vegans are mean to me about being vegetarian it's quite jarring because I don't expect them to be nasty and disrespectful. It's just me and my own generalisations, I think. I didn't mean to offend if I did.
 

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#402 Old 06-04-2013, 04:08 PM
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I've just always thought of vegans as people who have compassion for ALL living things and also as people who are more gentle. So when vegans are mean to me about being vegetarian it's quite jarring because I don't expect them to be nasty and disrespectful. It's just me and my own generalisations, I think. I didn't mean to offend if I did.
 

 

Hi Lindsytinsey

 

I don't see why anyone should be nasty to you because of your vegetarianism. I think your expectations of vegans are similar to mine and whether other people agree with us or not, you shouldn't feel offended. You seem to have a good heart and it's a shame that the same can't be said of the vegans who were mean to you.

 

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#403 Old 06-04-2013, 06:10 PM
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Purity is nonexistent. Unless you entirely grow your own vegetables, your 'cruelty-free' veggies used animal manure as fertilisers straight out of factory forms. Unless you outlaw yourself and refuse to pay your taxes, you're contributing to government subsidies of the meat and dairy industries. To exist IS to have a cruelty footprint. It is impossible to be pure.

 

At the end of the day, all of us need to be critical (not just vegans, vegetarians too) when we ask: Am I doing this for the animals, or am I doing this for myself? It is natural for people to crave social groups that give them a sense of purpose, identity and belonging. Better yet, if your social group allows you to believe that you are morally superior to others. Veganism is one such group that provides this, and in this respect it is no different from any other moral apologist group, even if it is the Nazi Youth Party.

 

This is where veganism risks being a cult of elitism. This is where it risks being about us, about being as loud as we can in proclaiming our moral superiority. By doing this we are abusing the movement, and spinning it towards our own selfish ends. We cause other people to think vegans are intolerant, uncompassionate, hypocritical to the very core. We cause them to associate the animal rights movement with frivolous, insufferable behaviour. We turn other would-be vegans from making the change because they'd hate to associate themselves with us, and we in turn harm the very animals we pledge to care for.

 

I want to quote Vegan Outreach here, who has IMO said some of the smartest things about what begin vegan means.

 

As anyone perusing the internet will see, there are no shortages of opinions about the definition of "vegan." A common thread seems to be that each person's definition of vegan is: "What I am." If a person eats sugar (or drinks water) that was filtered with charred bone, then sugar is vegan. If they don't, it isn't. Honey, whey, film, old baseball gloves, beer, smoking, medicine, etc.

A friend of mine (and long-time vegan) once wrote to a member of the vegan police: "I grow weary of the term 'vegan.' It seems to become just a label for moral superiority."

This may sound odd coming from a co-founder of Vegan Outreach, but it doesn't matter what label anyone places on me, or what label anyone places on themselves. For example, if Peter Singer (author of Animal Liberation) were to eat a dish that contains hidden dairy when at a colleague's house, or if Carole Morton (who runs Green Acres Farm Sanctuary and is a humane agent in a rural PA county) were to eat the eggs laid by the hens she has rescued ... do I want to cut them off, shun them from our vegan club?

Being vegan, for me, is about lessening suffering and working for animal liberation as efficiently as possible. It has nothing to do with personal purity or my ego. If, by some bizarre twist, eating a burger (or, better yet, a triple-cheese Uno's pizza :-) ) were to advance animal liberation significantly, then I would do it.

I understand that different people have different views of things. That is fine. I understand that the world is a pretty crappy place in many respects, and that is not OK, but allowing this to make me depressed, angry, or judgemental accomplishes nothing, or even less than nothing.


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#404 Old 06-04-2013, 06:19 PM
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It seems way too extreme to say that because a vegan talked down to someone or made someone feel bad about being a vegetarian, that they have no compassion for humans and/or they don't have a good heart. A person being okay with making some humans feel bad for their perceived moral failings and not being okay with supporting animal killing/exploitation is not a fair comparison by which to conclude that that person has compassion for non-human animals, but no compassion for humans. If someone was vegan, but, let's say, perfectly okay with human slavery, then it might be fair to conclude that they have compassion for non-humans, but little compassion for humans.

 

Also, I think a lot of times when vegans come off as judgmental it can be because they are compassionate rather than because they are callous. Compassion for a perceived wrong can lead people to be judgmental and/or angry with those who are perceived as carrying out or contributing to that perceived wrong.

 

That said, I don't think vegans should be nasty to vegetarians. I don't do it as a vegan and none of the vegans who I knew when I was a vegetarian were nasty or judgmental with me. I will give my honest opinion on why I think certain vegetarian products are unethical if it comes up or someone asks what I think. Basically I'm just saying I think it's uncool for vegans to be mean, but it's not nearly as bad as some people are making it out to be.

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#405 Old 06-04-2013, 07:14 PM
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Purity is nonexistent. Unless you entirely grow your own vegetables, your 'cruelty-free' veggies used animal manure as fertilisers straight out of factory forms. Unless you outlaw yourself and refuse to pay your taxes, you're contributing to government subsidies of the meat and dairy industries. To exist IS to have a cruelty footprint. It is impossible to be pure.

 

At the end of the day, all of us need to be critical (not just vegans, vegetarians too) when we ask: Am I doing this for the animals, or am I doing this for myself? It is natural for people to crave social groups that give them a sense of purpose, identity and belonging. Better yet, if your social group allows you to believe that you are morally superior to others. Veganism is one such group that provides this, and in this respect it is no different from any other moral apologist group, even if it is the Nazi Youth Party.

 

I don't know if I've ever seen a vegan "proclaim moral superiority".

 

I'd guess that being a vegan is more socially disadvantageous than advantageous for most people. I sure didn't get to join any sort of social club when I went vegan. If there are actually people who do it partly for social reasons though, then I have no problem with that. It's perfectly normal for people to behave in accordance with social moral norms. But veganism isn't a moral norm in most contexts. 

 

 

Quote:

I want to quote Vegan Outreach here, who has IMO said some of the smartest things about what begin vegan means.

 

As anyone perusing the internet will see, there are no shortages of opinions about the definition of "vegan." A common thread seems to be that each person's definition of vegan is: "What I am." If a person eats sugar (or drinks water) that was filtered with charred bone, then sugar is vegan. If they don't, it isn't. Honey, whey, film, old baseball gloves, beer, smoking, medicine, etc.

 

Sorry if this is pendantic, but obviously everyone's definition of vegan is not "what I am", because most people don't identify as vegan. And obviously everyone's definition who identifies as vegan is going to be compatible with what they are, otherwise they wouldn't identify as vegan. This is pretty much a logical necessity before we even observe any sort of empirical trends.

 

But yes, definitions tend to vary slightly.

 

Quote:

A friend of mine (and long-time vegan) once wrote to a member of the vegan police: "I grow weary of the term 'vegan.' It seems to become just a label for moral superiority."

This may sound odd coming from a co-founder of Vegan Outreach, but it doesn't matter what label anyone places on me, or what label anyone places on themselves. For example, if Peter Singer (author of Animal Liberation) were to eat a dish that contains hidden dairy when at a colleague's house, or if Carole Morton (who runs Green Acres Farm Sanctuary and is a humane agent in a rural PA county) were to eat the eggs laid by the hens she has rescued ... do I want to cut them off, shun them from our vegan club?

Being vegan, for me, is about lessening suffering and working for animal liberation as efficiently as possible. It has nothing to do with personal purity or my ego. If, by some bizarre twist, eating a burger (or, better yet, a triple-cheese Uno's pizza :-) ) were to advance animal liberation significantly, then I would do it.

I understand that different people have different views of things. That is fine. I understand that the world is a pretty crappy place in many respects, and that is not OK, but allowing this to make me depressed, angry, or judgemental accomplishes nothing, or even less than nothing.

 

I don't perceive any 'vegan police' or 'vegan club'. Vegan is just a word I use to convey the fact that I try to avoid animal products. So I sort of agree in the sense that I don't find labels important other than as a means of communication. But on the flip side I think people who complain about "the vegan police" are caring too much about labels in the sense that they care about whether other people think that they fit some label or not.

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#406 Old 06-04-2013, 08:16 PM
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I don't know if I've ever seen a vegan "proclaim moral superiority".

 

I'd guess that being a vegan is more socially disadvantageous than advantageous for most people. I sure didn't get to join any sort of social club when I went vegan. If there are actually people who do it partly for social reasons though, then I have no problem with that. It's perfectly normal for people to behave in accordance with social moral norms. But veganism isn't a moral norm in most contexts. 

 

 

 

Sorry if this is pendantic, but obviously everyone's definition of vegan is not "what I am", because most people don't identify as vegan. And obviously everyone's definition who identifies as vegan is going to be compatible with what they are, otherwise they wouldn't identify as vegan. This is pretty much a logical necessity before we even observe any sort of empirical trends.

 

But yes, definitions tend to vary slightly.

 

 

I don't perceive any 'vegan police' or 'vegan club'. Vegan is just a word I use to convey the fact that I try to avoid animal products. So I sort of agree in the sense that I don't find labels important other than as a means of communication. But on the flip side I think people who complain about "the vegan police" are caring too much about labels in the sense that they care about whether other people think that they fit some label or not.


Maybe we are more victims of media fabrication than we are of our own actions. I've always had a bad impression of the animal rights community until I joined it myself. I've spent hours with my friends laughing at ridiculous PETA campaigns, of which the Pokemon game was the most recent. All of these made me embarrassed to identify myself as part of the movement, even though I was growing closer and closer to it. Eventually, when I made the decision to go vegetarian, it was with the idea that I would be one on my own terms, unassociated with the larger community.

 

Since then I've learnt a lot about the people here. On the whole, I have a very positive impression of vegans. They are caring and compassionate, but know how to be assertive when it is expected of them. Still, these are not the people non-vegetarians see as representative of our community. The ones they notice are the ones they want to demonise and stereotype, the loudest, the most unpleasant and the most extreme. If we are being targeted, then it is all the more important to try to resist it. We need to let people know we are an inclusive group, not an exclusive one.


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#407 Old 06-05-2013, 06:07 AM
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I have seen vegans being harsh a few times, but not nearly as many times as I have seen non-vegans complaining about how harsh vegans can be and/or vegans complaining about how harsh other vegans can be.  Sometimes it seems like we spend more time talking about how important it is to be polite to non-vegans than talking about animals or cruelty-free living.  Maybe I'm just hanging out in the wrong places.


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#408 Old 06-05-2013, 08:09 AM
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In my experience (I have been all omni, vegetarian and vegan) the majority who seem to have a chip on their shoulder is vegetarians who refuse veganism and therefore resent people who are prepared to live the lifestyle despite 'sacrifices' which are few and far between!

I was vegetarian because I didn't understand the suffering and pain the dairy and egg industry causes and when I was told by a vegan they were gone immediately. Due to this I can't wrap my head around vegans who refuse to give dairy and egg up. I don't judge them for it but I just don't get it at all.

When I meet vegetarians I try to let them know about the egg and dairy industry in care they don't know already much like both vegans and vegetarians do with omnivores about meat and alike.

I suppose this is when joankennedy tears into my post looking for an argument.
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#409 Old 06-05-2013, 08:10 AM
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Sorry vegetarians who won't give up egg and dairy.
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#410 Old 06-05-2013, 11:32 AM
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I'm not vegan because reading all the reasons vegans think I should be makes me feel not guilty, but annoyed by their assumptions.

 

Morals are different for everyone, and everyone has a different take on ethics. I don't believe certain things that some vegans call exploitation are exploitation, nor negative. I am not uneducated, nor am I without compassion.

 

Actually, on the uneducated part, I am always shocked to hear of anyone, vegetarian, vegan, or omni, who didn't know by their teens about battery farms for eggs, dairy, or meat. Maybe it's part of living where I live or something, but I knew young (and stopped eating meat young) and I can't think of a single person in my extended family, high school, or college classes who don't know about that. But that's off topic.

 

I get my eggs from my own chickens. I don't cull my roos, and my flock are all rescues now. My last flock were show birds, and they were purchased from a woman who had been breeding her flock for years and also did not cull her roos and exchanged her breeding stock with other local breeders. Seeing as I have never had a single chicken who was interested in eating her eggs, fertile or not, instead of leaving them to rot for 50 weeks out of the year, I don't see a possible objection in my consumption of eggs. 

 

I avoid dairy, but I intend to be raising a small herd of goats by the time I'm 30, and I already have spent 6 years breeding and working with a sustainable herd for someone else.

 

Clearly, I'm evil, right?

 

Yes, keeping animals at all is wrong to some people, but I don't agree, and I do my research into where all the animals I live with (or will live with) come from. And I would probably not object to a human group being kept in decent conditions, knowing they are safe, well fed and healthy, happy, and with the only negative of not being able to leave (although really, my chickens are totally able to). But now obviously I look crazy.

 

tl;dr I don't see anything unethical about my non-vegan lifestyle. Oh noes.

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#411 Old 06-05-2013, 12:03 PM
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I'm not vegan because reading all the reasons vegans think I should be makes me feel not guilty, but annoyed by their assumptions.

 

Morals are different for everyone, and everyone has a different take on ethics. I don't believe certain things that some vegans call exploitation are exploitation, nor negative. I am not uneducated, nor am I without compassion.

 

Actually, on the uneducated part, I am always shocked to hear of anyone, vegetarian, vegan, or omni, who didn't know by their teens about battery farms for eggs, dairy, or meat. Maybe it's part of living where I live or something, but I knew young (and stopped eating meat young) and I can't think of a single person in my extended family, high school, or college classes who don't know about that. But that's off topic.

 

I get my eggs from my own chickens. I don't cull my roos, and my flock are all rescues now. My last flock were show birds, and they were purchased from a woman who had been breeding her flock for years and also did not cull her roos and exchanged her breeding stock with other local breeders. Seeing as I have never had a single chicken who was interested in eating her eggs, fertile or not, instead of leaving them to rot for 50 weeks out of the year, I don't see a possible objection in my consumption of eggs. 

 

I avoid dairy, but I intend to be raising a small herd of goats by the time I'm 30, and I already have spent 6 years breeding and working with a sustainable herd for someone else.

 

Clearly, I'm evil, right?

 

Yes, keeping animals at all is wrong to some people, but I don't agree, and I do my research into where all the animals I live with (or will live with) come from. And I would probably not object to a human group being kept in decent conditions, knowing they are safe, well fed and healthy, happy, and with the only negative of not being able to leave (although really, my chickens are totally able to). But now obviously I look crazy.

 

tl;dr I don't see anything unethical about my non-vegan lifestyle. Oh noes.

 

I'm vegan, but I don't consider all non-vegan practices to be immoral. Taking care of rescue birds and eating unwanted eggs is one example. Dumpster diving is another.

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#412 Old 06-05-2013, 12:13 PM
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I'm not vegan because reading all the reasons vegans think I should be makes me feel not guilty, but annoyed by their assumptions.

 

Morals are different for everyone, and everyone has a different take on ethics. I don't believe certain things that some vegans call exploitation are exploitation, nor negative. I am not uneducated, nor am I without compassion.

 

Actually, on the uneducated part, I am always shocked to hear of anyone, vegetarian, vegan, or omni, who didn't know by their teens about battery farms for eggs, dairy, or meat. Maybe it's part of living where I live or something, but I knew young (and stopped eating meat young) and I can't think of a single person in my extended family, high school, or college classes who don't know about that. But that's off topic.

 

I get my eggs from my own chickens. I don't cull my roos, and my flock are all rescues now. My last flock were show birds, and they were purchased from a woman who had been breeding her flock for years and also did not cull her roos and exchanged her breeding stock with other local breeders. Seeing as I have never had a single chicken who was interested in eating her eggs, fertile or not, instead of leaving them to rot for 50 weeks out of the year, I don't see a possible objection in my consumption of eggs. 

 

I avoid dairy, but I intend to be raising a small herd of goats by the time I'm 30, and I already have spent 6 years breeding and working with a sustainable herd for someone else.

 

Clearly, I'm evil, right?

 

Yes, keeping animals at all is wrong to some people, but I don't agree, and I do my research into where all the animals I live with (or will live with) come from. And I would probably not object to a human group being kept in decent conditions, knowing they are safe, well fed and healthy, happy, and with the only negative of not being able to leave (although really, my chickens are totally able to). But now obviously I look crazy.

 

tl;dr I don't see anything unethical about my non-vegan lifestyle. Oh noes.

 

I don't know why you feel so judged by vegans it seems. I do judge people if they know and don't give up cruel practices, but you are already doing more than most people and seem to want to make ethical choices. It's not you vegans need to address, though there is always room for civil and intelligent discussion on ethical and humane practices.


"Why should man expect his prayer for mercy to be heard by What is above him when he shows no mercy to what is under him?" ~Pierre Troubetzkoy
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#413 Old 06-05-2013, 12:46 PM
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Slavery? Nazi Youth Party?

 

This thread is barking mad. Cannibalism anybody?

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#414 Old 06-05-2013, 01:11 PM
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I don't know why you feel so judged by vegans it seems. I do judge people if they know and don't give up cruel practices, but you are already doing more than most people and seem to want to make ethical choices. It's not you vegans need to address, though there is always room for civil and intelligent discussion on ethical and humane practices.

I've actually been specifically told by several vegan people on this forum (mind, this was a few years ago) that raising birds, regardless of circumstance, was terrible, among other things. I agree that vegans don't need to address me (because even those who look at me and think I'm horrible won't be able to change my mind, not because I'm like the omnis who won't give up bacon, but because I've thought out my moral standing), although I agree that intelligent discussion is always good, but because at least the beginning of this thread had a lot of "well, vegetarians don't care enough" and so on, I felt that the full outlining was good, to point out that some vegetarians are both not transitioning and not ignorant.

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#415 Old 06-05-2013, 01:13 PM
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I'm not vegan because reading all the reasons vegans think I should be makes me feel not guilty, but annoyed by their assumptions.

 

Morals are different for everyone, and everyone has a different take on ethics. I don't believe certain things that some vegans call exploitation are exploitation, nor negative. I am not uneducated, nor am I without compassion.

 

Actually, on the uneducated part, I am always shocked to hear of anyone, vegetarian, vegan, or omni, who didn't know by their teens about battery farms for eggs, dairy, or meat. Maybe it's part of living where I live or something, but I knew young (and stopped eating meat young) and I can't think of a single person in my extended family, high school, or college classes who don't know about that. But that's off topic.

 

I get my eggs from my own chickens. I don't cull my roos, and my flock are all rescues now. My last flock were show birds, and they were purchased from a woman who had been breeding her flock for years and also did not cull her roos and exchanged her breeding stock with other local breeders. Seeing as I have never had a single chicken who was interested in eating her eggs, fertile or not, instead of leaving them to rot for 50 weeks out of the year, I don't see a possible objection in my consumption of eggs. 

 

I avoid dairy, but I intend to be raising a small herd of goats by the time I'm 30, and I already have spent 6 years breeding and working with a sustainable herd for someone else.

 

Clearly, I'm evil, right?

 

Yes, keeping animals at all is wrong to some people, but I don't agree, and I do my research into where all the animals I live with (or will live with) come from. And I would probably not object to a human group being kept in decent conditions, knowing they are safe, well fed and healthy, happy, and with the only negative of not being able to leave (although really, my chickens are totally able to). But now obviously I look crazy.

 

tl;dr I don't see anything unethical about my non-vegan lifestyle. Oh noes.

Some of us vegans were in our teens many decades ago, and I personally had no idea about the horrific details of egg or dairy farming at that time. All vegans aren't 22.

What do you care what people think of you anyway? Just live your life, raise your goats, whatever.
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#416 Old 06-05-2013, 02:30 PM
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Yeah, whatever.  I just want the organic market clerks to stop all arguing or acting baffled just because I'm still looking for vegan goods even though they do sell various kinds of "humane" animal products.


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Justin: Then you have learned nothing!

 

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#417 Old 06-05-2013, 02:35 PM
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Most people converting to veg*nism are younger, in my experience, and those are whom that comment was about.

 

And everyone should care what people think about them. Even though people should not change themselves to conform to others, caring how you present yourself is part of basic social interaction. I don't care too much what various people on this board think of me, but the question is why aren't vegetarians vegan, so it would be silly not to explain.

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#418 Old 06-05-2013, 02:36 PM
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Yeah, whatever.  I just want the organic market clerks to stop all arguing or acting baffled just because I'm still looking for vegan goods even though they do sell various kinds of "humane" animal products.

That is just confusing.

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#419 Old 06-05-2013, 03:20 PM
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That is just confusing.


I'm sorry.

 

There's a fine line between defending your position (caring what people think about us) and attacking an opposite position.  It's pretty easy to give offense when people perceive differences.


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Justin: Then you have learned nothing!

 

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#420 Old 06-05-2013, 03:22 PM
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I have birds. They are rescued battery hens that were due to be slaughtered. They lay eggs and I don't eat them. They now have a great life.

The only problem with it is I sometimes wonder if rescuing the hens is cheaper for the owner than sending them to slaughter and therefore making the industry more profitable.
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