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#331 Old 01-30-2013, 09:53 PM
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I disagree. Violence requires a justification, it is unjustified by assumption. Same goes for demanding violence through consumption. And what about the choice of the animal being used and exploited?


On this board, they do not need to justify it to you. Actually, in general, they don't have to justify it to you. This is a vegetarian friendly board, whether you agree with that viewpoint or not.

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#332 Old 01-31-2013, 03:59 AM
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Credit to me for acknowledging the challenge the mods would face with omnis on board? The credit is not mine, it's yours, you pointed it out.

You could have ignored my comment, disagreed with it, agreed with it, Ajswara. You chose to agree with it, even though it went against your case for having omnis on VB. That's the reason I gave you credit.

 

Maybe because I knew that you and I are polar opposites about having omnis on VB, I wanted to inject a little warmth to the debate by mentioning a point where I knew we agreed.

 

If omnis do come on board, and it's a big IF, I would think it important to try to find areas of agreement rather than always being 'in your face'. Being confrontational might give give a buzz, but for what good purpose if it drives omnis away? 

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#333 Old 01-31-2013, 12:42 PM
 
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Danakscully64, I was merely stating my opinion as a moral matter. And I didn't say that anyone needed to justify anything to me specifically. I just stated my opinion that violence and support for it is inherently immoral. Can it be justified under certain circumstances? Maybe, but if it can it at least requires a good moral justification, in my view.

 

Obviously, a user is not required to post a justification for consuming a product of violence such as fur or leather, they can simply choose not to post. To point out something that obvious seems rather silly to me.


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#334 Old 01-31-2013, 01:13 PM
 
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You could have ignored my comment, disagreed with it, agreed with it, Ajswara. You chose to agree with it, even though it went against your case for having omnis on VB. That's the reason I gave you credit.

 

Maybe because I knew that you and I are polar opposites about having omnis on VB, I wanted to inject a little warmth to the debate by mentioning a point where I knew we agreed.

 

If omnis do come on board, and it's a big IF, I would think it important to try to find areas of agreement rather than always being 'in your face'. Being confrontational might give give a buzz, but for what good purpose if it drives omnis away? 


I wouldn't say our views are polar opposites as I am not particularly devastated by the fact that omnivores are not allowed on the boards and therefore do not take a strong position. I do not know exactly what the implications of allowing them would be for the mods or the community and general content of the boards. Furthermore, my view has actually become less polarized as a result of this discussion, which is unusual.

 

I think finding areas of agreement are important, but I think discussing areas of disagreement is important and valuable. Unlike most people I suppose, I actually like when people are 'in your face,' as long as they are not being fallacious and disrespectful. I admire it when people do not sugarcoat their views and are 'in your face' about them. I think this has a lot to do with my experiences, particularly my past beliefs about how I thought vegetarian industries like dairy and eggs were not violent and immoral. I wish someone was 'in my face' about the fact that they are indeed violent and immoral.

 

What good purpose is being confrontational if it might drive omnivores away? Firstly, if by confrontational you mean not sugarcoating your beliefs, I don't think it will drive most away if you are calm and polite about it, at least in my experience IRL, though perhaps not on forums since you cannot easily express these characteristics on forums and are therefore classified as "aggressive" or something. But this is a valid question, how do you express your true beliefs without sugarcoating them even when they are in strong opposition to others who will find doing so aggressive and hostile and uncalled for and therefore drive them away? I really don't know.


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#335 Old 01-31-2013, 01:14 PM
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Ajswara, if you go back to mid 2011 (I think) and search this forum for duckhunters threads, you will see that having meat-eaters on the board changes it.
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#336 Old 01-31-2013, 01:22 PM
 
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Ajswara, if you go back to mid 2011 (I think) and search this forum for duckhunters threads, you will see that having meat-eaters on the board changes it.


What? Are you saying that omnivores were once allowed on here? Having meat-eaters on the board changes what?


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#337 Old 01-31-2013, 02:20 PM
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Danakscully64, I was merely stating my opinion as a moral matter. And I didn't say that anyone needed to justify anything to me specifically. I just stated my opinion that violence and support for it is inherently immoral. Can it be justified under certain circumstances? Maybe, but if it can it at least requires a good moral justification, in my view.

 

Obviously, a user is not required to post a justification for consuming a product of violence such as fur or leather, they can simply choose not to post. To point out something that obvious seems rather silly to me.

They can post if they want to. Discouraging people from posting violates the TOS.

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#338 Old 01-31-2013, 02:38 PM
 
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They can post if they want to. Discouraging people from posting violates the TOS.

Exactly! They can choose to post a justification or they can choose not too. I strongly encourage them to post, but they don't have too if they don't want too. This is exactly what I am saying. They are not required to post a justification, obviously, but they can if they want too and I encourage them to do so, especially if they truly believe it is justified for whatever reason.


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#339 Old 01-31-2013, 05:02 PM
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On most of the internet message boards in the world, having fun showing pictures of people grilling steaks is not at all insensitive, but post a single picture of a someone cutting steaks and suddenly you are the rude one.


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#340 Old 02-01-2013, 04:44 AM
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I'm not vegan because I don't see the point.  I don't think a vegan diet is healthier than a vegetarian diet.  I suppose if AR issues are paramount to your belief system then being vegan might make more sense.

 

To each his own. 

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#341 Old 02-01-2013, 05:06 AM
 
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I'm not vegan because I don't see the point.  I don't think a vegan diet is healthier than a vegetarian diet.  I suppose if AR issues are paramount to your belief system then being vegan might make more sense.

 

To each his own. 

Have you watched Forks Over Knives and read about the China Study? There is evidence that consuming cow's milk is linked to increased risk of disease.

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#342 Old 02-01-2013, 12:15 PM
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Vegnanism is intended to eliminate, so far as is possible, the harm we humans cause to animals- but most omnivores appear to believe that their craving for animal flesh, etc is more important than veganism.

 

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That is simply not true from my observations. Do omnivores actually believe that their craving for animal flesh is a good justification for exploiting animals, or do they just persist in their habits for trivial and morally unjustifiable reasons? I say the latter.

 

I want to rephrase what I originally wrote: I don't think most omnis are ready to make comparatively major changes in their diet for the sake of animals yet. But I honestly see serious movement in that direction, and am optimistic.

 

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I'm not vegan because I don't see the point.  I don't think a vegan diet is healthier than a vegetarian diet.  I suppose if AR issues are paramount to your belief system then being vegan might make more sense. 

Yes. I have noticed that the headcolds I catch appear to make me less congested than they used to before I dropped dairy; although I had read that milk was a "mucus-producing" food, I had not expected to be necessarily healthier after adopting a vegan diet; even though full-fat dairy or egg foods would probably have put me at increased risk for cardio-vascular disease, it's easy to find reduced-fat milk or egg products.

 

Unfortunately, I cannot find eggs or milk from anyplace which treats their animals acceptably, unless I were to raise those animals myself. Although I have considered adopting a farm animal who is at risk of being "culled" to give that animal a home, I don't miss milk or egg badly enough to buy a hen, goat, or cow just so I could have those foods again.

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#343 Old 02-01-2013, 12:59 PM
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I'm not vegan because I don't see the point.  I don't think a vegan diet is healthier than a vegetarian diet.  I suppose if AR issues are paramount to your belief system then being vegan might make more sense.

 

To each his own. 

I think vegan is healthier for America overall due to the dairy issue. I didn't eat too many eggs as a vegetarian and always hated milk, sour cream, etc (most dairy). However, like most Americans I ate too much cheese, which isn't healthy. Many think this cheese issue is one major contributing factor to the obesity problems here in the USA.

 

Last year Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine (PCRM) - who you should take with a grain of salt, filed a petition asking the USDA to remove milk as a required food from the national school lunch program too due to arguments that milk is unhealthy, because:

  • There’s limited proof that milk improves bone health or reduces the risk of osteoporosis. 
  • Cows milk is the number one source of saturated fat in children’s diets.
  • One in eight Americans is lactose intolerant.
  • More than 1 million U.S. children struggle with milk allergies.

 

I believe in that lactose issue. My roommate is always like, "My stomach hurts" - he gave up dairy for a week and said, "Hey, I feel better" but then he said, "It's too hard to give up cheese" now he's back to dairy and upset tummy issues. He's not the first person I've known to do this either. 

 

Depending on your vegetarian diet, I think it's prob healthier to eat vegan - BUT again, that depends on what you're eating as a vegetarian. Also, I guess I think this, because, personally I do feel healthier since going vegan.

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#344 Old 02-01-2013, 04:49 PM
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Organic dairy is not healthy, and when you add modern "innovations" like BGH and antibiotics, it's even more harmful.  To say nothing of the environmental impacts of factory farming, which is also a health issue: toxin you put into the air and water eventually harm you personally as much as what you put directly in your mouth.  And most cheese isn't even vegetarian; it's treated with gastrointestinal juices of the calves that die to produce the volumes of milk consumed by the human population.


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#345 Old 02-01-2013, 06:12 PM
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Organic dairy is not healthy, and when you add modern "innovations" like BGH and antibiotics, it's even more harmful.  To say nothing of the environmental impacts of factory farming, which is also a health issue: toxin you put into the air and water eventually harm you personally as much as what you put directly in your mouth.  And most cheese isn't even vegetarian; it's treated with gastrointestinal juices of the calves that die to produce the volumes of milk consumed by the human population.

 

Healthwise, dairy is anything but an all-or-nothing proposition. Anyone with a functioning sense of proportion can differentiate between frequent eggs/dairy and occasional eggs/dairy, for human health, the environment, and livestock misery alike. As Jack LaLanne used to say, it's not what you do occasionally that gets you, it's what you do every day. Knowing that I can order an eggplant parm once in a blue moon when I'm stuck at a restaurant without palatable vegan options, and knowing the last ice cream or the last ounce I had of Bailey's Irish Cream isn't necessarily the last one I'll ever have, makes it possible to stay on track as a vegetarian who cooks vegan. If the way I eat was the way most people eat, factory farming wouldn't even exist.

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#346 Old 02-01-2013, 08:24 PM
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Well, maybe "vegan," "vegetarian," and "omnivore" are not enough labels.  We might have to invent grades of initiation.  "I was a Level 1 vegan last week, but I slid back to Level 9 vegetarian."

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#347 Old 02-01-2013, 11:54 PM
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Well, maybe "vegan," "vegetarian," and "omnivore" are not enough labels.  We might have to invent grades of initiation.  "I was a Level 1 vegan last week, but I slid back to Level 9 vegetarian."

This made me laugh. And nearly choke on my soy milk. Thanks. 



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#348 Old 02-02-2013, 12:01 AM
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Healthwise, dairy is anything but an all-or-nothing proposition. Anyone with a functioning sense of proportion can differentiate between frequent eggs/dairy and occasional eggs/dairy, for human health, the environment, and livestock misery alike. As Jack LaLanne used to say, it's not what you do occasionally that gets you, it's what you do every day. Knowing that I can order an eggplant parm once in a blue moon when I'm stuck at a restaurant without palatable vegan options, and knowing the last ice cream or the last ounce I had of Bailey's Irish Cream isn't necessarily the last one I'll ever have, makes it possible to stay on track as a vegetarian who cooks vegan. If the way I eat was the way most people eat, factory farming wouldn't even exist.

 

Hey, this kind of thinking actually helped me get through my first few weeks of going vegan. I conciously gave myself the choice of going back to animal products if I wanted them. I think it made going "vegan" seem less difficult and less scary.  I didn't want them though and as time went on, I realized I would choose the compassionate choice every time.

 

Btw, if you like Baileys ice cream, have you tried coconut milk ice cream with Kahlua? It's sooooo incredible.  Next, I want to try frozen banana whip with Kahlua.  :-)

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#349 Old 02-02-2013, 10:10 AM
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Hey, this kind of thinking actually helped me get through my first few weeks of going vegan. I conciously gave myself the choice of going back to animal products if I wanted them. I think it made going "vegan" seem less difficult and less scary.  I didn't want them though and as time went on, I realized I would choose the compassionate choice every time.

 

Btw, if you like Baileys ice cream, have you tried coconut milk ice cream with Kahlua? It's sooooo incredible.  Next, I want to try frozen banana whip with Kahlua.  :-)

 

That sounds pretty good, though the double sugar hit would probably wire me silly. But it sounds like you're onto something with mixing coconut milk with liqueurs. I don't keep them on hand because sugar is Satan and I'm only human, but sometimes a bottle follows me home as a gift. :)

 

The kind of thinking that grants permission for non-vegan food keeps me from obsessing a lack, and has kept me 100 percent meatless like previous attempts couldn't. I don't beat myself up after having something containing dairy or eggs: it's a treat or a splurge, not a lapse, as it would be if I were going for vegan. It has absolutely helped me restrict my intake of anything that came out of a cow, goat or hen. I won't argue it as the more compassionate lifestyle choice, but it's the choice that keeps me on track and keeps animal products to a minuscule minimum. For some people in this regard, the perfect is the enemy of the good. I'm mindful that former vegetarians (including former vegans) outnumber practicing ones by about three to one, and the path I'm on doesn't take me back there.

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#350 Old 02-02-2013, 11:42 AM
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Joan, I like you more and more!

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#351 Old 02-02-2013, 12:06 PM
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That sounds pretty good, though the double sugar hit would probably wire me silly. But it sounds like you're onto something with mixing coconut milk with liqueurs. I don't keep them on hand because sugar is Satan and I'm only human, but sometimes a bottle follows me home as a gift. :)

 

 

Ahem...I have a recipe here for a  vegan version of Baileys....I haven't got around to trying it but it's made with coconut milk.  Not that I'm trying to tempt you into consuming unhealthy and alcoholic drinks at all, of course lick.gif

 

http://ohsheglows.com/2012/03/12/homemade-baileys-irish-creammade-vegan/

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#352 Old 02-02-2013, 12:09 PM
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Ahem...I have a recipe here for a  vegan version of Baileys....I haven't got around to trying it but it's made with coconut milk.  Not that I'm trying to tempt you into consuming unhealthy and alcoholic drinks at all, of course lick.gif

 

http://ohsheglows.com/2012/03/12/homemade-baileys-irish-creammade-vegan/

OMG. BOOKMARKED.



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#353 Old 02-02-2013, 01:04 PM
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OMG. BOOKMARKED.


Me too. If it goes too thick it's going into brownie icing.

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#354 Old 02-03-2013, 06:28 PM
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In my opinion there are many vegan and vegetarian foods that are a lot unhealthier to eat than either dairy or meat.

Lets talk about a man named John, John lives off a diet of mostly dairy, meat, white sugar, white flour, white rice, white bread, High Sugar breakfast Cereals, carbonated drinks, deep-fried foods, Cookies and Candy.

If our friend John was to change all of the above foods other than meat and dairy to healthier versions he would be a lot healthier than he would be if he only stopped eating meat and dairy and kept eating the rest.

 

 By themselves Vegetarianism and Veganism do not guarantee a healthy diet, they can be a start but by themselves all they will ever be when it comes to health is to be a part of a healthy diet.

So if you are only worried about health meat and dairy should be one of the last things you will need to cut out of your diet.

 And while we are on the topic of health, in my opinion there is not a single person in the world that can come up with a good argument that Honey is unhealthy.


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#355 Old 02-03-2013, 07:00 PM
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I think the subject we were on was only whether "a vegan diet is healthier than a vegetarian diet."  In general, more vegetarians are careless about deep-fried foods and sugar than most vegans are, I think.  (If you are vegan and not careful about sugar, BTW, you're probably not vegan.)  Exceptional vegetarians may be very health conscious, and philosophically averse for different reasons to becoming vegan or fully vegan, but it's also objectively false that vegan is less healthy.

 

Of course, dropping animal products is not the only route in dietary improvement towards physical health.  And I, for one, cannot ignore animal rights, nor do I suggest that such ignoring become a prevailing theme.  Just saying, I think that's where recent posts on this thread were coming from before now.


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#356 Old 02-03-2013, 11:52 PM
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so i did read this weekend Skinny *****, oh my word i was so gross out by the detail in the book about the milk, farm and egg industry i dont think i want to come near dairy and eggs again.  I totally get way people want to be vegan and have so much respect for them. iloveyou.gif

 

Unfortunately the book also did some damage as in triggering my ED.  I didnt realise it untill I made the connection I felt sick before eating and really just didnt feel like eating anything not 'pure'. 

 

Argh!

 

I am determinate to cut out dairy and eggs now but if I am really honest wiht myself I am not in a good space.

 

PS.  I know there is lots of foods out there thats really good for you and there is a huge variaty to keep you balanced and happy.  But when one is stuck in this weird "space" its hard to convince yourself otherwise.

 

I however really dont want to feel I am involved in the torture of the animals...Its so cruel.

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#357 Old 02-04-2013, 03:05 AM
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In my opinion there are many vegan and vegetarian foods that are a lot unhealthier to eat than either dairy or meat.

Lets talk about a man named John, John lives off a diet of mostly dairy, meat, white sugar, white flour, white rice, white bread, High Sugar breakfast Cereals, carbonated drinks, deep-fried foods, Cookies and Candy.

If our friend John was to change all of the above foods other than meat and dairy to healthier versions he would be a lot healthier than he would be if he only stopped eating meat and dairy and kept eating the rest.

 

 By themselves Vegetarianism and Veganism do not guarantee a healthy diet, they can be a start but by themselves all they will ever be when it comes to health is to be a part of a healthy diet.

So if you are only worried about health meat and dairy should be one of the last things you will need to cut out of your diet.

 And while we are on the topic of health, in my opinion there is not a single person in the world that can come up with a good argument that Honey is unhealthy.

The botulism in honey has killed infants.
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#358 Old 02-04-2013, 05:15 AM
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i was also advised not to give honey to my baby until the age of 1.

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#359 Old 02-04-2013, 09:55 AM
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In my opinion there are many vegan and vegetarian foods that are a lot unhealthier to eat than either dairy or meat.

Lets talk about a man named John, John lives off a diet of mostly dairy, meat, white sugar, white flour, white rice, white bread, High Sugar breakfast Cereals, carbonated drinks, deep-fried foods, Cookies and Candy.

If our friend John was to change all of the above foods other than meat and dairy to healthier versions he would be a lot healthier than he would be if he only stopped eating meat and dairy and kept eating the rest.

 

 By themselves Vegetarianism and Veganism do not guarantee a healthy diet, they can be a start but by themselves all they will ever be when it comes to health is to be a part of a healthy diet.

So if you are only worried about health meat and dairy should be one of the last things you will need to cut out of your diet.

 And while we are on the topic of health, in my opinion there is not a single person in the world that can come up with a good argument that Honey is unhealthy.

 

It definitely depends on the type of meat and dairy products being consumed.  Hot dogs, bologna, cheese whiz, and ice cream for example. 

 

I of course am of the understanding that dairy is not healthy in any way, I can't think of a single dairy product that can be considered part of a healthy diet (other than breast milk for infants and toddlers).  If health is the only concern, dairy should be one of the first foods eliminated. 

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#360 Old 02-04-2013, 11:07 AM
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I think the subject we were on was only whether "a vegan diet is healthier than a vegetarian diet."  In general, more vegetarians are careless about deep-fried foods and sugar than most vegans are, I think.  (If you are vegan and not careful about sugar, BTW, you're probably not vegan.) 

 

I can't tell if you're referencing bone char or saying that vegans care more about eating healthy than vegetarians (not sure why this would be the case)?

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