Are you opposed to eating oysters? - Page 3 - VeggieBoards
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#61 Old 06-22-2012, 12:22 PM
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Not saying I'm opposed to it, but it will never fit into the definition of veg*nism. 


The oysters or the lab meat? But I agree with both. They wouldn't fit into vegetarianism or veganism because they are simply a type of meat. It would just seem weird to have vegans eating oysters or lab meat, all ethics aside. o_0


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#62 Old 06-22-2012, 12:23 PM
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I agree Cato xD

 

Plant, you are more so taking a dogmatic approach to veganism. While I respect it, there has to be a "WHY" can't we eat this or that. It is a rule that vegans don't eat animals or their products. Why do we not eat animals or their products? Because it harms the animals. So what if an organism classified as an animal could not feel pain and suffering and was not aware? The question is WHY should we not eat them, and many of us have already given our answers as to why we shouldn't.

I'm not being dogmatic. I'm being vegan. Vegans eat potatoes but not oysters.I don't think like you. It's not about harm or suffering to me though I hate to see either one of them. It's about existence and the right to live one's life without being exploited.

 

This stupid question of oyster sentience has been brought up over and over on board after board. Vegans give all animals the benefit of the doubt by not eating them. Cato has made 25 posts attempting to get people on the vegan support forum to sanction eating oysters. He'll not get it from me. Ever.

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#63 Old 06-22-2012, 12:34 PM
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I'm not being dogmatic. I'm being vegan. Vegans eat potatoes but not oysters.I don't think like you. It's not about harm or suffering to me though I hate to see either one of them. It's about existence and the right to live one's life without being exploited.

 

This stupid question of oyster sentience has been brought up over and over on board after board. Vegans give all animals the benefit of the doubt by not eating them. Cato has made 25 posts attempting to get people on the vegan support forum to sanction eating oysters. He'll not get it from me. Ever.

 

By that logic, we could also be exploiting vegetables. Plants exist, though it's unlikely they are aware or conscious. What we were simply saying is that, what would be the problem with eating oysters if they couldn't feel pain and weren't aware? But, like we have already discussed and you said, most vegans give them the benefit of the doubt and simply don't eat them.

 

I think it wouldn't hurt to be a little more understanding in your responses. Nobody is out to change your mind, just simply open it.


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#64 Old 06-22-2012, 12:55 PM
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MOD POST - Just a friendly reminder that this is a vegetarian forum.  Vegetarians do not eat land animals or sea animals.  Just as we do not eat brain-dead cows because they cannot "feel" we do not eat shell fish because they lack a central nervous system.  


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#65 Old 06-22-2012, 01:03 PM
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I'm not necessarily opposed to eating oysters, but they look disgusting and the idea of eating something that cleans bodies of water where humans habit sounds revolting.  I would be as likely to eat root crops such as potatoes, carrots, etc that were grown in an active latrine.

 

In terms of the vegan aspect of sentience, I think of veganism as a first order approximation of avoiding exploitation to sentient creatures.  So yes, there are some non-sentient animals (and I wouldn't have a problem with people consuming them) and there are probably some sentient non-animals (so I would have a problem with people consuming them). 

 

Some hostility is with new members jumping right into a topic and start throwing around words like 'dogma' and being accusatory.  Please tone it down a bit. 

 

Thanks.  :)


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#66 Old 06-22-2012, 01:13 PM
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The definition of veganism is not in the issue at hand. The creed is. The question is why do we (or should we) avoid certain foods, not which ones are avoided by vegans. I believe it is a question of immense importance unless we are to bury our heads in the sand. For me veganism is about ethics not a fashion trend. I do not choose certain foods to avoid arbitrarily, I do so upon ethical consideration. Otherwise my system would be no better than someone who eats only deer meat and avoids vegetables and other sorts of meats arbitrarily. But why do we eat plants because they lack a central nervous system? Again we must not bury our heads in the sand. Reasons must be offered for our beliefs and our principles must be put forwards for everyone to see.

 

Oh some of my posts are not getting through. They are being held for moderation. Is there anything you can do about that? Thanks.

 

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MOD POST - Just a friendly reminder that this is a vegetarian forum.  Vegetarians do not eat land animals or sea animals.  Just as we do not eat brain-dead cows because they cannot "feel" we do not eat shell fish because they lack a central nervous system.  

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#67 Old 06-22-2012, 01:20 PM
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The definition of veganism is not in the issue at hand. The creed is. The question is why do we (or should we) avoid certain foods, not which ones are avoided by vegans. I believe it is a question of immense importance unless we are to bury our heads in the sand. For me veganism is about ethics not a fashion trend. I do not choose certain foods to avoid arbitrarily, I do so upon ethical consideration. Otherwise my system would be no better than someone who eats only deer meat and avoids vegetables and other sorts of meats arbitrarily. But why do we eat plants because they lack a central nervous system? Again we must not bury our heads in the sand. Reasons must be offered for our beliefs and our principles must be put forwards for everyone to see.

 

Oh some of my posts are not getting through. They are being held for moderation. Is there anything you can do about that? Thanks.

 


I think you are looking for answers to questions that we nor anyone else can really answer :/  And sometimes, that's just how life works and you have to do what you think is best and ethical and hope it comes out to be so <3


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#68 Old 06-22-2012, 01:32 PM
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Your view seems pretty reasonably, thank you. I already addressed the water quality issue in previous posts.

Please do not choose my words or my tone for me. Should I require your opinion on those I will ask. Thank you.

 

PS I accused myself of dogma too!

 

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I'm not necessarily opposed to eating oysters, but they look disgusting and the idea of eating something that cleans bodies of water where humans habit sounds revolting.  I would be as likely to eat root crops such as potatoes, carrots, etc that were grown in an active latrine.

 

In terms of the vegan aspect of sentience, I think of veganism as a first order approximation of avoiding exploitation to sentient creatures.  So yes, there are some non-sentient animals (and I wouldn't have a problem with people consuming them) and there are probably some sentient non-animals (so I would have a problem with people consuming them). 

 

Some hostility is with new members jumping right into a topic and start throwing around words like 'dogma' and being accusatory.  Please tone it down a bit. 

 

Thanks.  :)

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#69 Old 06-22-2012, 01:39 PM
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I think we should all question our views. We must at least know what principles they are based upon. I think if the principle of avoiding suffering is not the one where veganism is based I can see no other attractive principle. In any case I would like people to state the principles where they base veganism. I guess that is one of the the main reason I started this thread. I had a reply to you but it did not get through.

 

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I think you are looking for answers to questions that we nor anyone else can really answer :/  And sometimes, that's just how life works and you have to do what you think is best and ethical and hope it comes out to be so <3

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#70 Old 06-22-2012, 01:45 PM
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The definition of veganism is not in the issue at hand. The creed is. The question is why do we (or should we) avoid certain foods, not which ones are avoided by vegans. I believe it is a question of immense importance unless we are to bury our heads in the sand. For me veganism is about ethics not a fashion trend. I do not choose certain foods to avoid arbitrarily, I do so upon ethical consideration. Otherwise my system would be no better than someone who eats only deer meat and avoids vegetables and other sorts of meats arbitrarily. But why do we eat plants because they lack a central nervous system? Again we must not bury our heads in the sand. Reasons must be offered for our beliefs and our principles must be put forwards for everyone to see.

 

Oh some of my posts are not getting through. They are being held for moderation. Is there anything you can do about that? Thanks.

 

 

If indeed your choice to go vegan is based on ethics and not a fashion trend, why would you not rather err on the side of compassion for creatures who may or may not feel as you do?  Frankly, I don't really choose my food with ethical consideration.  I instead make broad, sweeping generalizations.  If it's a plant, I'll probably eat it.  If it's an animal or an animal product, I won't.


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#71 Old 06-22-2012, 01:56 PM
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You are right if reasonable doubt remains that oysters may suffer I will not eat them. I have no intention of doing so soon. Anyway I don't like generalizations. I think someone mentioned something about sentient plants, in any case suppose hypothetically that they exist, I think we would have to make an exception for such plants rather than stop eating plants altogether or eat even the sentient ones.

 

PS thanks for letting my posts through if it was you.

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If indeed your choice to go vegan is based on ethics and not a fashion trend, why would you not rather err on the side of compassion for creatures who may or may not feel as you do?  Frankly, I don't really choose my food with ethical consideration.  I instead make broad, sweeping generalizations.  If it's a plant, I'll probably eat it.  If it's an animal or an animal product, I won't.

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#72 Old 06-22-2012, 02:00 PM
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If we didn't eat plants or animals, we'd be in a tough spot, wouldn't we?  


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#73 Old 06-22-2012, 02:07 PM
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I already addressed the water quality issue in previous posts.

 

I just reread the thread and didn't see anything relating to the point I was making.

 

 

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Please do not choose my words or my tone for me. Should I require your opinion on those I will ask. Thank you.

 

That was a friendly mod post warning.


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#74 Old 06-22-2012, 02:17 PM
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I argued that if we consumed oysters there would be greater numbers of them and hence better water quality.

 

I do not believe I did anything inappropriate and I thought you accusing me (specifically) of doing so was not friendly and an unwarranted warning.

 

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I just reread the thread and didn't see anything relating to the point I was making.

 

 

 

That was a friendly mod post warning.

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#75 Old 06-22-2012, 02:59 PM
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If we didn't eat plants or animals, we'd be in a tough spot, wouldn't we?  

Lol. Maybe mushrooms...? smiley.gif
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#76 Old 06-22-2012, 08:57 PM
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MOD POST - Just a friendly reminder that this is a vegetarian forum.  Vegetarians do not eat land animals or sea animals.  Just as we do not eat brain-dead cows because they cannot "feel" we do not eat shell fish because they lack a central nervous system.  


This is why it's difficult to have this discussion here. I dunno how much we are permitted to say in favor of Cato's argument. I essentially agree with it, but I don't eat oysters (just not for ethical reasons). I also would not be opposed to eating meat produced in a lab if it was done without harming any animals.

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#77 Old 06-22-2012, 09:37 PM
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I pretty much agree with there not being ethical issues with killing brainless animals, aside from the environmental damage. After all, when omnis ask "so why is killing plants ok?" I usually bring up the fact that they don't have brains and therefore cannot perceive pain/suffering.

BTW, these arguments also apply to scallops, clams, mussels and starfish as well.

You can add anencephalic infants to that list as well.
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Unless I have been told by scientists that they feel no pain and that they know this beyond a reasonable doubt I will not eat them.
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A baby born with anencephaly is usually blind, deaf, unconscious, and unable to feel pain.

So, I guess if scientists agree that anencephalic infants feel no pain, you'll have a main course to go along with your oysters.

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#78 Old 06-22-2012, 10:25 PM
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People like to consider bivalves as "sea blobs," but the more I read about them, the more complex that I see they are.  They do have locomotion for a reason - to avoid predation - and do not use "being eaten" as a species survival mechanism, as many plants do.  Scallops even have "complex eyes," which at least gives me pause...

 

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Scallops have complex eyes with a lens and retina, but most other bivalves have much simpler eyes, if any. There are also light-sensitive cells in all bivalves, that can detect shadows falling on the animal.[2]

In the septibranchs the inhalant siphon is surrounded by vibration-sensitive tentacles for detecting prey.[3]

 

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Razor shells (Ensis spp.) can dig themselves into the sand with great speed to escape predation. Scallops can swim to escape an enemy, clapping their valves together to create a jet of water. Cockles can use their foot to leap from danger. However these methods can quickly exhaust the animal. In the razor shells the siphons can break off only to grow back later.

 

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A free-living scallop can swim, by rapidly opening and closing its shell. This method of locomotion is also a defense technique, protecting it from threatening predators.


wiki, scallops and bivalvia


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#79 Old 06-22-2012, 10:26 PM
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You can add anencephalic infants to that list as well.
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A baby born with anencephaly is usually blind, deaf, unconscious, and unable to feel pain.
So, I guess if scientists agree that anencephalic infants feel no pain, you'll have a main course to go along with your oysters.


Anencephalic infants don't even have the ability to get away when you try to attack them.  Maybe they were evolved to be eaten, like fruit.


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#80 Old 06-22-2012, 10:54 PM
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Anencephalic infants don't even have the ability to get away when you try to attack them.  Maybe they were evolved to be eaten, like fruit.


 

 

It might seem crazy, but if they really have no conscious, and aren't aware, I would question the ethics about what would be wrong with eating them? (not that I would though)  O.o  huh.gif


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#81 Old 06-22-2012, 10:57 PM
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I strongly believe that if there is no victim there is no crime. A victim must be conscious or able to feel pain (at one time or another). There may also be other requirements. I do not have any significant amount of knowledge on anencephalic infants but I will try to give you what you need.

Suppose there are human bodies without brains. I believe there is nothing inherently wrong with eating them. Simply because there is no victim for there to be a crime. That is a simplified version however. We as humans are prone to certain taboos whether biological or cultural.  For example the thought of eating human flesh creeps me out. For many people the thought of not observing certain burial customs for themselves or others creeps them out. Even though such views may be based on taboos and dogma rather than useful principles we must respect them whenever possible. If there was a culture that ate their dead (who died of natural causes) perhaps as a custom with universal approval I do not think there is anything wrong with it. However for myself and many others eating dead humans (who have agreed to be eaten after death) or brainless humans would creep us out and probably cause psychological damage. The gain of eating dead humans (with consent prior to death and consent of others) is not great enough to justify doing it. But as I said the act itself is not wrong. It is wrong because it gives others the creeps from eating the bodies of their own species. If I encountered a culture where it was taboo not to bow before the dead before burying them and it would cause them great psychological damage if I failed to comply I would comply even though the act of not bowing to the dead is not inherently wrong.

So again I would avoid such meat (of brainless humans) based on taboos, and in order to avoid psychological damage, and in order to avoid causing grief to others (also based on taboos),and there is little gain by eating it, not because it is inherently wrong to eat it. If a group of people were isolated without food and one of the members was dying and left a letter allowing others to eat his body then I would not be creeped out by others eating to survive. I would not feel creeped out by eating brainless animals which are unable to feel pain and are not conscious. There is no victim and no psychological damage.

So, I guess if scientists agree that anencephalic infants feel no pain, you'll have a main course to go along with your lettuce and potatoes. What do you say to that?

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You can add anencephalic infants to that list as well.
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A baby born with anencephaly is usually blind, deaf, unconscious, and unable to feel pain.
So, I guess if scientists agree that anencephalic infants feel no pain, you'll have a main course to go along with your oysters.
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#82 Old 06-22-2012, 11:04 PM
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And that should not be! I think these are important issues which should not be ignored if we wish to remain rational about our veganism.

 

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This is why it's difficult to have this discussion here. I dunno how much we are permitted to say in favor of Cato's argument. I essentially agree with it, but I don't eat oysters (just not for ethical reasons). I also would not be opposed to eating meat produced in a lab if it was done without harming any animals.

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#83 Old 06-22-2012, 11:15 PM
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That is interesting, thanks. I do not know much about biology but getting away from predators is an evolutionary advantage and living "entities" with it are more likely to survive and reproduce. I don't think that necessarily implies that they feel or are conscious. It might appear that way to us but it is probably not so. To react to your environment you need some sort of sensors (eyes for example) but sensors don't require consciousness. We have mechanical/electronic sensors too.

 

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People like to consider bivalves as "sea blobs," but the more I read about them, the more complex that I see they are.  They do have locomotion for a reason - to avoid predation - and do not use "being eaten" as a species survival mechanism, as many plants do.  Scallops even have "complex eyes," which at least gives me pause...

 

Quote:

 

Quote:

 

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#84 Old 06-22-2012, 11:18 PM
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And that should not be! I think these are important issues which should not be ignored if we wish to remain rational about our veganism.

 

 

I get what you are saying Cato, many of us do...and I'm glad that you are bringing up questions so veganism doesn't seem like something based entirely upon dogma.

 

However, as I mentioned before, we do not have the answer to any of the questions about consciousness, awareness, or pain of  of animals we are unsure about. (As it' impossible to tell if a being is conscious as the being with the conscious is the only one that knows they are conscious.).

 

As a vegan, let's give them the benefit of the doubt and  just not eat oysters, shell animals or anencephalic babies, and stick to our plants and fungi <3


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#85 Old 06-22-2012, 11:38 PM
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I agree with you about the doubt. However some (extremely small) doubt might also exist for plants. If the doubt for oysters or other brainless animals approaches the same probability as that of plants we would be backed into a corner. Either discriminate against plants or eat them both.

And I am not so sure that it is the extremely small doubt keeping many of us from eating them. It might have more to do with dogma and we use the doubt as a pretense (that would include myself) to fool to ourselves and others. I find that possible. Possibly we like the satisfaction of suffering for righteousness and are unwilling to give up the suffering even if righteousness no longer demands it (possibly true for me as well). Not intended to offend anyone!

 

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I get what you are saying Cato, many of us do...and I'm glad that you are bringing up questions so veganism doesn't seem like something based entirely upon dogma.

 

However, as I mentioned before, we do not have the answer to any of the questions about consciousness, awareness, or pain of  of animals we are unsure about. (As it' impossible to tell if a being is conscious as the being with the conscious is the only one that knows they are conscious.).

 

As a vegan, let's give them the benefit of the doubt and  just not eat oysters, shell animals or anencephalic babies, and stick to our plants and fungi <3

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#86 Old 06-22-2012, 11:43 PM
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I agree with you about the doubt. However some (extremely small) doubt might also exist for plants. If the doubt for oysters or other brainless animals approaches the same probability as that of plants we would be backed into a corner. Either discriminate against plants or eat them both.

And I am not so sure that it is the extremely small doubt keeping many of us from eating them. It might have more to do with dogma and we use the doubt as a pretense (that would include myself) to fool to ourselves and others. I find that possible. Possibly we like the satisfaction of suffering for righteousness and are unwilling to give up the suffering even if righteousness no longer demands it (possibly true for me as well). Not intended to offend anyone!

 


I'm going to be completely honest. I believe in a just god, and I know that a just god would not put plants under the feet of both people, animals and insects, if they were going to feel pain every time they were stepped on. I see no point in making them aware either. They cannot move and they are simply rooted in place.


I truly don't believe shelled animals s are sentient or are aware, I'm not going to say that with 100% assurance, but I I have high faith in my just god that they know what they are doing and they planned for there to be vegetarians and vegans ^^ You don't have to agree with what I believe, but it keeps me sane at night :)


I think you are thinking too far into this now, because neither scientists, nor us, have the answers.

 

P.S I would appreciate if you would stop making it seem that veganism is dogmatic because we don't eat this and this and we don't really have an answer as to why. We are simply trying to be ethical and sincere people. Very few of us follow the exact same "vegan rules" as anyone else, hence among the vegan community you will find that everyone has their own little lines to draw over certain topics like soap in restrooms, bone char sugar, animal tested medicine, etc.


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#87 Old 06-22-2012, 11:55 PM
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I respect your right to worship but I don't believe in God. I believe even if God existed we would have to look to evolution for answers to be consistent with modern science. I prefer to not discus the possibility of God any further here. I have a tendency to be very insensitive to the beliefs of religious people often without realizing the harm I cause to believers (who do not hurt others with their belief.)

I should do more research into what science says on this (brainless animals) and what level of confidence they have on their answers.

 

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I'm going to be completely honest. I believe in a just god, and I know that a just god would not put plants under the feet of both people, animals and insects, if they were going to feel pain every time they were stepped on. I see no point in making them aware either. They cannot move and they are simply rooted in place.


I truly don't believe shelled animals s are sentient or are aware, I'm not going to say that with 100% assurance, but I I have high faith in my just god that they know what they are doing and they planned for there to be vegetarians and vegans ^^


I think you are thinking too far into this now, because neither scientists, nor us, have the answers.

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#88 Old 06-23-2012, 12:00 AM
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I respect your right to worship but I don't believe in God. I believe even if God existed we would have to look to evolution for answers to be consistent with modern science. I prefer to not discus the possibility of God any further here. I have a tendency to be very insensitive to the beliefs of religious people often without realizing the harm I cause to believers (who do not hurt others with their belief.)

I should do more research into what science says on this and what level of confidence they have on their answers.

 


LOL I don't worship...I think o_o Do I? I dunno xD dun think so or at least not in the sense of rituals or anything.

 

It's cool, I respect your right to believe in what you want, I just don't want you coming here and saying veganism is dogmatic, because while some may go about it that way, we aren't trying to be and we are simlpy trying to go through this life with the least amount of harm :) 

 

By all means, do research and stuff, science is pretty cool and I like what it has taught us so far, but I take what is said with a grain of salt because ya know, sometimes some things are corrected later and we learn new things down the line :)


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#89 Old 06-23-2012, 12:13 AM
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I get your point. I suppose if we had replicators like in Star Trek that could make cooked meat only out of energy (without harm to anyone) and someone still avoided meat and claimed that she was ethically superior to those who ate that meat then she would be a dogmatic vegan. See, Star Trek is useful :)

As for science, any new theory must account for the same observations that the previous theories were based on. That puts a serious limit to change unless those same observations can plausibly be explained with another theory. I am no biologist but I think evolution is pretty safe.

 

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Originally Posted by 4everaspirit View Post


LOL I don't worship...I think o_o Do I? I dunno xD dun think so or at least not in the sense of rituals or anything.

 

It's cool, I respect your right to believe in what you want, I just don't want you coming here and saying veganism is dogmatic, because while some may go about it that way, we aren't trying to be and we are simlpy trying to go through this life with the least amount of harm :) 

 

By all means, do research and stuff, science is pretty cool and I like what it has taught us so far, but I take what is said with a grain of salt because ya know, sometimes some things are corrected later and we learn new things down the line :)

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#90 Old 06-23-2012, 02:06 AM
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There are bound to be blurry edges to a lot of issues, for example, where does space begin and the atmosphere end?

That blurriness doesn't invalidate the view that there are areas that can safely be defined as space, and areas that are atmosphere.


And I agree that it is good to have a debate. If there was discovered a plant that was conscious, like the fictional Triffid, then veg*nism would have to make an exception.

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