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#211 Old 05-30-2012, 03:39 PM
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I want birth control in everyone's water. That's sharing responsibility.

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#212 Old 05-30-2012, 04:01 PM
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LOL, even for people who only have homosexual sex?
 

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#213 Old 05-30-2012, 04:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Digger View Post

 

To my knowledge nobody here thinks that men should hold no responsibility... only that men shouldn't shoulder ALL of the rsponsibility.

 

Spread your legs... accept the consequences...  how is this unfair?


But that's what raising a child is doing, so how is a woman raising a kid and the guy providing some money for it, not both of them shouldering the responsibility? If the woman is raising the kid and the man isn't providing anything, that's the woman taking on all responsibility, if the woman abandons the kid obviously that's her not taking responsibility. My boyfriend and i have decided i'll stay home and provide the most care while he provides financial support for us, i couldn't do it without him and he couldn't do it without me. Money isn't the only thing that matters and i think both are equally responsible, though sometimes in different ways.

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#214 Old 05-30-2012, 04:28 PM
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LOL, even for people who only have homosexual sex?
 

 

I meant for all the brilliant humans in this story. :p

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#215 Old 05-30-2012, 04:31 PM
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LOL, even for people who only have homosexual sex?
 

 

Yes! You can never be too careful!

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#216 Old 05-30-2012, 05:07 PM
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What is an acceptable number of kids one should be able to have before no more additional government help? Get one "accident".. . okay here's your get outta jail free,we'll help you, two? three? Where should the cutoff be? At some point should additional welfare come with the requirement that one gets permanent birth control? Should we just do away with welfare altogether and if parents who can't afford a child on their own are going to have to look towards family, friends or charity for support... if they can't too bad so sad, your choice, your kid. Maybe it's me, I can see some instances were government support helps a particular individual but when you stand back and look at the big picture it's still a disaster every bit as much as the disaster that it was trying to rectify in the first place.
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#217 Old 05-30-2012, 05:42 PM
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Me too. Scary, ain't it? tongue3.gif
But seriously, the "no uterus, no opinion" crowd is leaving an important factor out of the equation. No uterus - no opinion - no responsibility.

That makes about 4 of us who can understand that.

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#218 Old 05-30-2012, 05:48 PM
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But at this point, both he and his partners appear to take the same amount of (in)action towards birth control.  Ergo, both are equally responsible.

Not exactly Das. No.

 

Only the woman is voluntarily inactive in birth control after conception has occured.

 

The man simply has no actions available to him.

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#219 Old 05-30-2012, 05:54 PM
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It's just how biology works. Nothing we control.

Wrong.

 

Abortion allows full control of that particular biological function.

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#220 Old 05-30-2012, 05:57 PM
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What is an acceptable number of kids one should be able to have before no more additional government help? Get one "accident".. . okay here's your get outta jail free,we'll help you, two? three? Where should the cutoff be? At some point should additional welfare come with the requirement that one gets permanent birth control? Should we just do away with welfare altogether and if parents who can't afford a child on their own are going to have to look towards family, friends or charity for support... if they can't too bad so sad, your choice, your kid. Maybe it's me, I can see some instances were government support helps a particular individual but when you stand back and look at the big picture it's still a disaster every bit as much as the disaster that it was trying to rectify in the first place.

 

I say one more than what you had when you went on welfare. Anyone can have an accident, birth control failure, etc. But when I sit and listen to women with 2 or 3 kids, living on welfare, openly discussing planning the next one, it makes me ill. I also think we could save a whole lot of money by overhauling what could be purchased with food stamps. A lot of waste going on there.  I agree with you what we have now is a disaster and one of these days the people funding said disaster are going to run out of money.

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#221 Old 05-30-2012, 06:08 PM
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 But when I sit and listen to women with 2 or 3 kids, living on welfare, openly discussing planning the next one, it makes me ill.

 

How often do you do this? I can't ever remember hearing such a conversation.

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#222 Old 05-30-2012, 06:20 PM
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I know people on the public dole. One of my good friends is exactly the type I complain about. She had the first kid, went on welfare and proceeded to add 4 more. I know others who use welfare as it was meant to be used, but when they live in public housing and you visit, you see the abuses. Also the Laundromat 2 blocks from my house is like a welfare soap opera. Only way to avoid said soap opera is to go really late at night, at which time the place is kinda creepy.

 

I have also worked in a grocery store and in a hospital. You see a fair share of food stamp misuse and Medicaid misuse in those situations too.

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#223 Old 05-30-2012, 07:43 PM
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Not exactly Das. No.

 

Only the woman is voluntarily inactive in birth control after conception has occured.

 

The man simply has no actions available to him.

 

Considering the amount of kids this man has, I think he continued being voluntarily inactive in birth control.  :p

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#224 Old 05-30-2012, 07:45 PM
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How often do you do this? I can't ever remember hearing such a conversation.

 

It seems that the incentives aren't there for more children.  Here is an overview

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#225 Old 05-30-2012, 07:53 PM
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I don't care what "studies have shown", anyone I knew who had another kid then got more in food stamps and WIC both.

 

Also I didn't say I heard people saying they were going to have another baby just to get more aid, though I have no doubt some people think that way. But they regularly have more kids without getting off the handouts first, and the rest of us continue to foot the bill. Families not on welfare and not rich have to control the # of kids they have so why shouldn't those on welfare?

 

I know someone who moved into public housing with 2 kids, had a TV delivered that is certainly way more expensive than any TV I could buy, had cable hooked up, had 2 more kids and now are complaining that they are not moving up on the list fast enough for a roomier apartment with more bedrooms. The more some people are given, the more they expect.

 

I envy those of you who have never heard or seen this stuff up close, but it also explains why you think I'm just a big meanie who is making it all up.

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#226 Old 05-30-2012, 08:05 PM
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Ya whatever study that is i'm not so sure about, it's simple if you just look to see that when you have more kids you get more foodstamps or living assistance, all of these programs go by family size, right now i can't get foodstamps, but after the baby is born i will be eligible, and if i had another i'd be eligible for more.

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#227 Old 05-30-2012, 09:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Wolfie View Post

 

Families not on welfare and not rich have to control the # of kids they have so why shouldn't those on welfare?

Biology?

 

 

No one "has" to control the number of children they have. It's just that middleclass and wealthy tend to have fewer because of:

- education

- values

- access to birth control

 

Fact is, the more education a woman gets the longer she postpones children and the fewer children she has.

Likewise, the more she values education for her children, the fewer children she tends to have in order to give those children more resources for higher education.

And the better educated she is, the better she is able to obtain and use birth control effectively.

Education is one of the best tools to lower the fertilty rate and improve everyone's standard of living. You can whine about "welfare moms" all you want but it's not going to change a damn thing. Education is the way to go.

 

Read this article: http://www.economist.com/node/14743589

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#228 Old 05-30-2012, 10:41 PM
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I don't care what "studies have shown", anyone I knew who had another kid then got more in food stamps and WIC both.

 

You do get more aide after having another kid.  Just not that much more.

 

It is a pretty bad money making idea altogether.  Some people may have the poor judgment to rationalize having another child because of it, but it is far from a sane decision, unless raising another child costs less than $90 a month (the increase stated in the article I posted).

 

A person who pays income taxes gets a far larger tax credit per child, yet few working class families are having more children because of that.

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#229 Old 05-30-2012, 11:08 PM
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Oh don't even get me started on the tax credits for kids. I need to go to bed sometime. :p

 

The unchilded get screwed any way you look at things.  And the middle class gets the shaft no matter what party is in office.

 

And yet people wonder why some of us want a third party.

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#230 Old 05-30-2012, 11:31 PM
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I'm pretty sure you're wrong.  Those with children get screwed, while us childfree folk have awesome lives.  ;)

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#231 Old 05-31-2012, 12:46 AM
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I think the only ones having any fun are the rich.
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#232 Old 05-31-2012, 12:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Clueless Git View Post

 

Only the woman is voluntarily inactive in birth control after conception has occured.

 

The man simply has no actions available to him.

Then I guess the guy should be extra careful to use protection, or to choose a partner with similar values.  It's not like some stranger drugged him, took his sperm, and made him have kids.


"If you want to know where you would have stood on slavery before the civil war, don't look at where you stand on slavery today, look at where you stand on animal rights." - Paul Watson.

 

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#233 Old 05-31-2012, 01:06 AM
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To response-disable a person and then hold them to be response-able is, quite frankly, just about as hypocritical as a hypocracy can get.

So you're saying that if a man impregnates a female (as a result of his choices) and doesn't want the child then he should be able to walk away from it. 

 

It's interesting that you want more children to grow up in poverty.  Or that you want your taxes raised to pay for some other able guy's kids because he didn't use protection.  I don't want either.  Thus, I think parents should pay for their own biological children, whether wanted or not (women can also have a change of heart after the child is born) - unless they give them up for adoption. 


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#234 Old 05-31-2012, 01:43 AM
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Originally Posted by das_nut View Post

 

Considering the amount of kids this man has, I think he continued being voluntarily inactive in birth control.  :p

No Das.

 

He did, it would seem, continue being voluntarily inactive in pregnancy control.

 

Birth control was an option exclusively available to the women.

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#235 Old 05-31-2012, 02:35 AM
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Then I guess the guy should be extra careful to use protection, or to choose a partner with similar values.  It's not like some stranger drugged him, took his sperm, and made him have kids.

 

It seems that he did choose partners with similar values.

 

It would also seem that so did the women.

 

Still remains that these children being born was exclusively the choice of the women.

 

 

Quote:
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So you're saying that if a man impregnates a female (as a result of his choices) and doesn't want the child then he should be able to walk away from it.

 

I am saying that ONLY the parent with the choice to have, or not to have, a child can actualy choose to have, or not to have, children.

 

It is either wrong, or not wrong, to force people to pay for other peoples reproductive choices.

 

If it is wrong to force people to pay for other peoples reproductive then men should not have pay for the reproductive choices of women.

 

 

I do know that's a major PITB for the 'cake and eat it' crew but, sadly, you can't have cake and eat it.

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#236 Old 05-31-2012, 02:56 AM
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How often do you do this? I can't ever remember hearing such a conversation.


I hear this conversation at least once a day in the waiting room of the Citizens Advice Bureau where I work . Conversations run along the lines of one 'seasoned benefit mummy' explaining to the other how to space out the birth of babies to maximise benefit income.

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#237 Old 05-31-2012, 03:05 AM
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It's interesting that you want more children to grow up in poverty.

You keep that massive strawman away from naked flames please Irizary!

 

I want society to pay through the nose for it's idiocy at every possible opportunity.

 

People like the man and women in this story are direct products of the idiocy of society and the children are the victims of that idiocy.

 

I want society to be forced to pay for these children to the degree that these children have every possible opportunity.

 

 

So basicaly what I want is NO children to grow up in poverty and I want myself and others to be forced to pay for that no matter what it costs - any valid objection to that?

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#238 Old 05-31-2012, 03:08 AM
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I hear this conversation at least once a day in the waiting room of the Citizens Advice Bureau where I work . Conversations run along the lines of one 'seasoned benefit mummy' explaining to the other how to space out the birth of babies to maximise benefit income.

Seen and heard it too!

 

I have also heard young school leaver girls discussing the option of finding work or getting pregnant (for benefits and housing) as entirely equal 'career' alternatives.

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#239 Old 05-31-2012, 03:11 AM
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Me too. Scary, ain't it? tongue3.gif
But seriously, the "no uterus, no opinion" crowd is leaving an important factor out of the equation. No uterus - no opinion - no responsibility.

 

Just when I was debating handing in my membership card to the sisterhood and growing testicles...another woman appears who speaks from the brain rather than 'talking out of her uterus' 

 

  thumbsup.gif

 

Happy Hippy

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#240 Old 05-31-2012, 03:18 AM
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Originally Posted by AlixJ18 View Post. I find myself more and more thankful for my partner every day.

 

And I for mine AlixJ18..beatnik2.gif

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