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#181 Old 05-29-2012, 09:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Clueless Git View Post

 

It has something to do with shared responsibility being co-dependant on shared rights.

 

Where rights are not shared there is no shared responsibility.

 

John is accurately pointing out that those who have exclusive rights have exclusive responsibility.

 

The right to terminate/deliver is, for right or wrong, exclusively a womans right.

 

All terminated/delivered babies are therefore exclusively the womans responsibility.

 

No. All babies are BOTH PARENTS responsibility. His sperm, her egg, both of their responsibility. There's a reason the law sees it at the way... because that's how it is.

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#182 Old 05-29-2012, 10:58 AM
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Yah, ok ...

 

Can we discuss an idea that you (I think it was) raised on another topic Das?

 

Basicaly this bloke is only having to ask for public assistance from the same public that has made him liable to pay for other peoples choices in the first place.

 

By the time someone has 30 children, odds are pretty good that they weren't using any birth control or discussing birth control options with their partner.  He bears a great deal of responsibility.

 

I have sympathy for those who did use birth control but are facing an unwanted pregnancy.  I even have sympathy for those who made a mistake once or twice about not using birth control.  But 30 times?!  No.  No sympathy for him.

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#183 Old 05-29-2012, 11:08 AM
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By the time someone has 30 children, odds are pretty good that they weren't using any birth control or discussing birth control options with their partner.  He bears a great deal of responsibility.

 

I have sympathy for those who did use birth control but are facing an unwanted pregnancy.  I even have sympathy for those who made a mistake once or twice about not using birth control.  But 30 times?!  No.  No sympathy for him.

 

And I'm sure he's had unprotected sex way more than the 23 times he conceived children (another article said he only had 23... only). I'm 26 and have never had unprotected sex once.... this guy (and the women) were stupid. Knowing you already knocked up 4 women in 1 year and let it happen a 2ND time... come on. 

 

Honestly, it wouldn't surprise me if some of the 23 weren't his kids. It wouldn't surprise me if there were kids out there that are his that he doesn't know about. Someone who has unprotected sex with 11 women (number of baby mama's he has) surely has had more partners than that. Likely the same goes for the women.

 

The stupid award goes to everyone.

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#184 Old 05-29-2012, 11:35 AM
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Let's try a more realistic version of Clueless Git's scenario:

 

-A woman has most of  the rights to her body depending on her age and the state she lives in

 

- She can probably get an abortion if she has the money and transportation and time off for several appointments 

 

-A woman has to come up with capital ranging from $300-$950 to get just the abortion procedure in an out-patient clinic in the first trimester, let alone the other appointments

 

-If she takes until the second trimester to get that money, that capital required shoots up

 

-$300, at the bottom of the range nationwide, is still a lot of money to simply come up with

 

-It is incredibly damaging to a woman's reputation to have an abortion in many social circles, including some familial ones

 

-While not an issue for every woman, abortion is a violation of many religions.. This is a REAL concern to those it effects.

 

-If a man wants out of the responsibility for a to-term pregnancy he helped to incite, he can help find solutions to these problems.

 

 The pregnancy is indeed both of their fault. And if the man leaves the woman to solve ANY of the problems with an abortion stated above by herself, then he is to share fault for the baby being born, too. If abortions were free of consequence or cost, maybe alternative ideas would make sense. It's a child, not an unexpected result.

 

 I circumvented three separate forms of birth control to be born while my parents were not married and had no desire for children EVER, and somehow, my dad still managed to step up because it was his responsibility, too. And when my brother and sister were conceived a bit later, he still managed to get all three of us to college.

 

 The idea that it's not the man's responsibility to care for a child because "she didn't abort" is a pathetic attempt to heap responsibility onto a woman because of her biology. It's shameful.

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#185 Old 05-29-2012, 11:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Ginariffic View Post

Let's try a more realistic version of Clueless Git's scenario:

 

-A woman has most of  the rights to her body depending on her age and the state she lives in

 

- She can probably get an abortion if she has the money and transportation and time off for several appointments 

 

-A woman has to come up with capital ranging from $300-$950 to get just the abortion procedure in an out-patient clinic in the first trimester, let alone the other appointments

 

-If she takes until the second trimester to get that money, that capital required shoots up

 

-$300, at the bottom of the range nationwide, is still a lot of money to simply come up with

 

-It is incredibly damaging to a woman's reputation to have an abortion in many social circles, including some familial ones

 

-While not an issue for every woman, abortion is a violation of many religions.. This is a REAL concern to those it effects.

 

-If a man wants out of the responsibility for a to-term pregnancy he helped to incite, he can help find solutions to these problems.

 

 The pregnancy is indeed both of their fault. And if the man leaves the woman to solve ANY of the problems with an abortion stated above by herself, then he is to share fault for the baby being born, too. If abortions were free of consequence or cost, maybe alternative ideas would make sense. It's a child, not an unexpected result.

 

 I circumvented three separate forms of birth control to be born while my parents were not married and had no desire for children EVER, and somehow, my dad still managed to step up because it was his responsibility, too. And when my brother and sister were conceived a bit later, he still managed to get all three of us to college.

 

 The idea that it's not the man's responsibility to care for a child because "she didn't abort" is a pathetic attempt to heap responsibility onto a woman because of her biology. It's shameful.

 

 

You win the thread, thank you :)

( I tried to rep you and das, but it won't let me)

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#186 Old 05-29-2012, 07:27 PM
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And I'm sure he's had unprotected sex way more than the 23 times he conceived children (another article said he only had 23... only). I'm 26 and have never had unprotected sex once.... this guy (and the women) were stupid. Knowing you already knocked up 4 women in 1 year and let it happen a 2ND time... come on. 

 

I was just reading today that a couple not using any protection has about a one in four chance of conceiving per month.

 

So yes, he and his partners are quite horrible at using birth control.

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#187 Old 05-29-2012, 09:16 PM
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#188 Old 05-29-2012, 11:31 PM
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This isn't a logistics equation, Git.  And if it were, it would sound much like this:

 

Git likes the colour blue.

 

Git likes ice cream.

 

Therefore Git is likely to finish the triathlon in record time.

 

Makes perfect sense! smiley.gif

Okey dokey, a small edukashun fo' ya Limes.

 

The word responsible is derived from the words 'response' and 'able'. Basicaly it means having the ability to respond.

 

When a person is not able to respond they cannot accurately/fairly be described as response-able. They are, in fact, response-disabled.

 

To response-disable a person and then hold them to be response-able is, quite frankly, just about as hypocritical as a hypocracy can get.

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#189 Old 05-29-2012, 11:53 PM
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Since the women are the ones who are actually caring for and raising all these children, the least he could do is support them financially.

Not a response that the man was/is capable of without the help he is asking for.

 

Admittedly both the man and the women were fully able to respond to that pre-conception.

 

Post-conception, though, it was exclusively the ability of the women involved to make any further response.

 

 

Quote:

If he thinks financially supporting his own children is unfair, he could always ask for custody, raise all 30 children himself and ask the women for child support.

Without the consent of the mother (and a court?) men are response-disabled on the taking custody of their own children front.

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#190 Old 05-30-2012, 12:05 AM
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No. All babies are BOTH PARENTS responsibility. His sperm, her egg, both of their responsibility.

 

It would be fair to say that all consensual conceptions are equaly the responsibility of both parents.

 

Post conception the man becomes response-disabled whilst the mother remains fully response-enabled though.

 

To say that, post conception, both parents are fully response-abled is thus the sort of ass-about-face thinking that I would associate heavily with the sort of person who works for minimum wage.

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#191 Old 05-30-2012, 12:21 AM
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I was just reading today that a couple not using any protection has about a one in four chance of conceiving per month.

 

So yes, he and his partners are quite horrible at using birth control.

 

1 in 4 sounds about right (ovulation time per month). I know some people (related to them) who got pregnant within the first month of trying to conceive. If a woman knows when she's ovulating, she has a better chance of conceiving or avoiding conception. I bet these people didn't even care. If I were the man in this story, after having a few kids I couldn't support, I would be wrapping it up EVERY time. If I were a women with many kids I couldn't support, you can damn well bet I'd be using 2 forms of birth control every time. Personal responsibility is key to a change in behavior.

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#192 Old 05-30-2012, 12:24 AM
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By the time someone has 30 children, odds are pretty good that they weren't using any birth control or discussing birth control options with their partner.  He bears a great deal of responsibility.

 

He still has less response-ability than the more highly response-enabled women do though Das?

 

Question on my mind is something along the lines of this: What sort of logic is in play when society response-disables men and then whinges like a bunch of fat kids who have been told to share their sweeties with less response-able men?

 

Like what sort of nonsense is it to disassociate a decrease in peoples (in this instance, mens) actual response-ability from a proportionate decrease in peoples sense of response-ability?

 

 

This is simply ignoring the commonsense/scientific/natural/karmic 'law' that every effect must have a cause and every cause must have an effect.

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#193 Old 05-30-2012, 12:35 AM
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The idea that it's not the man's responsibility to care for a child because "she didn't abort" is a pathetic attempt to heap responsibility onto a woman because of her biology. It's shameful.

 

No.

 

It is a tragic truth born of womens insistence that post-conceptual response-ability must be the exclusive province of women.

 

Claiming exclusive response-ability and then squealing like the farmers prettiest pig about about being exclusively response-able simply (if one concedes that 'wanting to have cake and eat it' is nonsensical) simply makes no sense.

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#194 Old 05-30-2012, 05:21 AM
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No.

 

It is a tragic truth born of womens insistence that post-conceptual response-ability must be the exclusive province of women.


Hm. So fetuses grow inside female bodies just because women insist on it?

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#195 Old 05-30-2012, 06:37 AM
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No.

 

It is a tragic truth born of womens insistence that post-conceptual response-ability must be the exclusive province of women.

 

Claiming exclusive response-ability and then squealing like the farmers prettiest pig about about being exclusively response-able simply (if one concedes that 'wanting to have cake and eat it' is nonsensical) simply makes no sense.

 Before you read my response, are you trolling? Because you totally can laugh at my seriousness if you are trolling.

 

Otherwise, this is just stupid.

 

It's not about who has ALL the "response-ability" (nice dodge, but as I've pointed out in my previous post, men do have some), because each party has some. And even if that baby is born, men still have "response-ability" again. They are able to respond to the fact that they helped to make a baby, and so now they have a baby. The world is just FULL of other people who can exacerbate or mitigate any consequence of your actions. That doesn't mean that they weren't your actions.

 

 Throwing your hands up high in the air and proclaiming "Well, I guess there is just NO WAY I can help to lessen the financial, emotional, and social burdens this woman must handle to get an abortion because it's totally not my fault if this child is born," just makes you look like a fool who waves his hands in the air.

 

Anyway, please begin to address arguments presented, and not convenient straw-mans and associations that we can all see you are setting up on your own.

 

**On a side note, I see no purpose of getting cake to let it sit there. That actually doesn't follow with taking power, but no responsibility. You get cake to eat it. Weight comes with cake I guess... but then your metaphor is incomplete. Maybe people who buy cake, but really want a tub of icing would be an appropriate analogy to your point. Oh, and then wonder why the world made them fat. That sounds more like the men in your scenario though. People should really stop saying things just because they are common. It doesn't help them.

 

**Other side note: women aren't pigs. And pigs don't have sense of whether or not they are pretty anyway. I doubt one pig squeals more than another in serious trouble based on something ridiculous and arbitrary like that. 

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#196 Old 05-30-2012, 06:50 AM
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The world is just FULL of other people who can exacerbate or mitigate any consequence of your actions.

 

Great post all around, but this is my favorite line. yes.gif

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#197 Old 05-30-2012, 09:51 AM
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Hm. So fetuses grow inside female bodies just because women insist on it?

 

For so long as abortion is available on demand then when a woman refuses to abort she is insisting that a fetus be allowed to grow inside her body.

 

So, exactly as you said. Yes.

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#198 Old 05-30-2012, 10:03 AM
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 Before you read my response, are you trolling?

By the wikipedia definition of trolling definitely not.

 

By the same definition I am dangerously close to being trolled though.

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#199 Old 05-30-2012, 12:20 PM
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I rarely find myself agreeing with HavocJohn but in this instance I do.

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#200 Old 05-30-2012, 12:31 PM
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Abortion for many women is NOT an option. So no, it's not the choice to keep or kill the embryo, the decision was made with the sex and there's no going back. Men need to understand this when having sex, that's when the decision to have a baby is made. So wrap it up, protect yourself from all the EVIL WOMEN TRYING TO STEAL YOUR SPERM!

 

Sorry hun but this is where I get confused... Men need to understand this when having sex?  Not the women?  Wrap it up and protect yourself?  You seem to be saying that birth control is entirely the man's responsibility and/or fault.  Not a very enlightened point of view in my mind, and harkens back to a time when men were to blame for everything that is wrong in a woman's life.  I thought we had progressed beyond that.  What magic forced these 'ladies' legs apart against their will?

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#201 Old 05-30-2012, 12:38 PM
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Sorry hun but this is where I get confused... Men need to understand this when having sex?  Not the women?  Wrap it up and protect yourself?  You seem to be saying that birth control is entirely the man's responsibility and/or fault.  Not a very enlightened point of view in my mind, and harkens back to a time when men were to blame for everything that is wrong in a woman's life.  I thought we had progressed beyond that.  What magic forced these 'ladies' legs apart against their will?

 

Women need to be responsible too, I didn't say that wasn't the case (I've actually said the opposite many times in this thread, I don't know how many times you expect me to repeat it). The fact is, once the sperm enters her body, all rights on whether the embryo is brought to term is lost by the man.

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#202 Old 05-30-2012, 01:01 PM
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Women need to be responsible too, I didn't say that wasn't the case (I've actually said the opposite many times in this thread, I don't know how many times you expect me to repeat it). The fact is, once the sperm enters her body, all rights on whether the embryo is brought to term is lost by the man.

 

But the man still "gains" the right to support the child, even though he's lost the right to entirely control his finances?


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#203 Old 05-30-2012, 01:07 PM
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But the man still "gains" the right to support the child, even though he's lost the right to entirely control his finances?

 

He gains the right when he chooses to have unprotected sex with someone, yes. Or even protected when it fails. If men were the ones who carried the fetus to full term, I would be saying the same thing to women.

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#204 Old 05-30-2012, 01:32 PM
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The fact is, once the sperm enters her body, all rights on whether the embryo is brought to term is lost by the man.

 

How medieval of you... only the man gets to decide...

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#205 Old 05-30-2012, 01:39 PM
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How medieval of you... only the man gets to decide...

 

It's just how biology works. Nothing we control.

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#206 Old 05-30-2012, 01:43 PM
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He still has less response-ability than the more highly response-enabled women do though Das?

 

I agree that yes, he has less ability, due to biology, which limits his birth control option to one non-permanent method, and one method that should be considered permanent.  Both methods which only limit contraception.

 

And I agree that yes, compared to his partners, he has far less methods available, and he cannot terminate a pregnancy, unlike his partners.

 

But at this point, both he and his partners appear to take the same amount of (in)action towards birth control.  Ergo, both are equally responsible.

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#207 Old 05-30-2012, 02:00 PM
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Wow i can't believe how many men think they hold no responsibility, or think women are saying they should only have responsibility. Just love how apparently giving birth to a kid and raising it is not being responsible for it, only sending a minimum amount of money a month for the kid is "supporting" it. I find myself more and more thankful for my partner every day.

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#208 Old 05-30-2012, 02:35 PM
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I rarely find myself agreeing with HavocJohn but in this instance I do.
Me too. Scary, ain't it? tongue3.gif

But seriously, the "no uterus, no opinion" crowd is leaving an important factor out of the equation. No uterus - no opinion - no responsibility.

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#209 Old 05-30-2012, 02:37 PM
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Wow i can't believe how many men think they hold no responsibility...

 

To my knowledge nobody here thinks that men should hold no responsibility... only that men shouldn't shoulder ALL of the rsponsibility.

 

Spread your legs... accept the consequences...  how is this unfair?

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#210 Old 05-30-2012, 02:55 PM
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*into supporting the


Enjoying the view over at http://forum.veggieviews.com/

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