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#31 Old 02-18-2012, 01:19 AM
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RedLotus, if you were arguing that it was not abnormal for people to feel relief that the man with the gun, was killed, instead of the cat, I might agree with you. But we were discussing whether it was normal for people to feel relief that the woman in the video was killed instead of the cat, not about whether animals are in general more vulnerable than people. To bring up the generality, was a strawman argument. In that specific instance, in the video, the cat was no more vulnerable than the woman, problably less vulnerable, given that the unarmed elderly woman walked right up to the man with the gun and begged him not to hurt the cat. If there is any person that one should feel empathy for, especially if we are someone who doesn't want animals to be hurt, that elderly woman would be the person to feel empathy for. For someone who professes to care about animals, being relieved that she was killed is hypocracy, as well as sociopathology. It also smacks of a propensity for elder-phobia, and tolerence of elder-abuse. The fact that in general, animals are more vulnerable than humans, has nothing to do with it.
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#32 Old 02-18-2012, 01:38 AM
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""I plan to take further action and possibly get a petition to have him relocated or be moved out of his home," the unidentified neighbor said.

"I think that’s great. I think we all need to sign it and get it going and get him out of here," Headley said."

It's what I said. They don't like that he had too many weeds in his lawn. They are worried about their property values; they don't really even care about the cats. Just, anything to get him out of there. Any pretext they can come up with.

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"People who live here are worried Wilmert’s behaviors could get worse and he could start targeting larger prey.

"It could have started from small animals to cats and dogs and it could possibly escalate later on to, possibly, human," the unidentified neighbor said.

When they stop eating cattle, and start worrying that they themselves are going to start eating humans, that would have some meaning to me. Otherwise it is clear they just don't like this man, and are trying to come up with anything they can, to use against him. I don't doubt that the man was eating cats. But I really doubt that these neigbors of his really give a damn about the cats. Just look at their comments
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I don’t feel like he should have been released. He shouldn't be doing that. It’s gross," said one neighbor who didn’t want to be identified.

"First thing I wanted to do is throw up. It made me sick to my stomach,"

They don't express concern about the cats, just about the esthetics of the situation.

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Headley has six cats of her own and says her neighbor’s cat recently came up missing.

This is more hearsay. And probably made up. I am skeptical about whether there was really a neighbor who really had a cat that was missing.
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#33 Old 02-18-2012, 01:52 AM
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I wish I hadn't opened this thread.

*this space not for sale*
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#34 Old 02-18-2012, 01:59 AM
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It's what I said. They don't like that he had too many weeds in his lawn. They are worried about their property values; they don't really even care about the cats. Just, anything to get him out of there. Any pretext they can come up with.

I sure don't know where you get that, because I'd want to get the live cat skinning freak out of my neighborhood too, and not because of his lawn, but because he skins cats alive and eats them.

My next question for you is - are your neighbors putting pressure on you to move?

"If you want to know where you would have stood on slavery before the civil war, don't look at where you stand on slavery today, look at where you stand on animal rights." - Paul Watson.

 

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#35 Old 02-18-2012, 02:06 AM
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Irizary, my white neigbors are putting pressure on my neighbors, black and white in one house, to move, and make up stories about drug dealing and prostitution which I don't believe are true, since I know the mixed neighbors better than my white neighbors know them. My white neigbors never say anything about my black neighbor's color, but are actually quite "friendly" to them, giving them "gifts" such as stuffed monkies, and confederate flags. The white neighbors complain about the mixed family having loud parties, at night, but their own parties are much bigger, much louder, and just as late at night.

The white neigbors called the police about the ostensible drug dealing. Fortunately the police don't believe there is any drug dealing going on. This is what I gathered from having a conversation with a police officer that patrols the neigborhood.

So I know the kind of bullshoot that people can just make up, when they don't like someone and want them out of the neigborhood.
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#36 Old 02-18-2012, 02:08 AM
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Here's the plan people!

1. We all move, en-masse, to Kern County.

2. We all get a chicken, a cow, a pig and a sheep each as a pet.

With me so far?
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#37 Old 02-18-2012, 02:08 AM
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So it sounds like you might be worried about people being persecuted to move. But this isn't a case that I think warrants that concern.

"If you want to know where you would have stood on slavery before the civil war, don't look at where you stand on slavery today, look at where you stand on animal rights." - Paul Watson.

 

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#38 Old 02-18-2012, 02:10 AM
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Here's the plan people!

1. We all move, en-masse, to Kern County.

2. We all get a chicken, a cow, a pig and a sheep each as a pet.

With me so far?

It's a good plan as long as no one goes crazy and starts skinning them alive.

"If you want to know where you would have stood on slavery before the civil war, don't look at where you stand on slavery today, look at where you stand on animal rights." - Paul Watson.

 

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#39 Old 02-18-2012, 02:23 AM
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So it sounds like you might be worried about people being persecuted to move. But this isn't a case that I think warrants that concern.

Nobody asked you what warrants my concern and what doesn't. And you are being awfully presumptious to imply that you know anything more about what is going on than I do, or about what I need to worry about and what I don't. You have no idea about what is going on other than what I told you. I could well be glad if the mixed neighbors moved, rather than worried about it. Or I could be worried about it. You have no way of knowing. You just like to make stuff up.
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#40 Old 02-18-2012, 02:24 AM
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Soilman, I'm here to tell you something you don't seem to be aware of. When you rent what are called DVD's and connect them to a television set or computer and look at the screen, or when you enter a movie theater and look at a screen, the images you see do not necessarily reflect actually existing characters undergoing actual events in reality. Rather, they often constitute what is known by most people as 'fiction', which means that those events were staged, rather than being actual events filmed as they were occurring in real life. I know you feel really alarmed that an elderly woman was shot in real life by Christian Bale and that this event was captured for a documentary, and that some sick ****s on VB applaud this real death. Maybe you would want Christian Bale to be tried for murder. But, I can relieve you of some of your stress and worry: the woman was actually not killed, she just pretended to die, and probably continued walking a few minutes after the scene was captured. Anyone's feelings of relief about whoever got killed or did not get killed are feelings of relief about the manner in which the woman actor and Christian Bale were pretending to do something.

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#41 Old 02-18-2012, 02:29 AM
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And you are being awfully presumptious to imply that you know anything more about what is going on than I do, or about what I need to worry about and what I don't.

Fortunately, it is not presumptuous at all to call the cat abuser's neighbors (probable) liars.

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#42 Old 02-18-2012, 02:30 AM
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Nobody asked you what warrants my concern and what doesn't. And you are being awfully presumptious to imply that you know anything more about what is going on than I do, or about what I need to worry about and what I don't. You have no idea about what is going on other than what I told you. I could well be glad if the mixed neighbors moved, rather than worried about it. Or I could be worried about it. You have no way of knowing. You just like to make stuff up.

No, actually I was attempting a generous interpretation of why you seem to be defending this sick person.

I'll go back to my first question - have you recently been charged with misdemeanors?

"If you want to know where you would have stood on slavery before the civil war, don't look at where you stand on slavery today, look at where you stand on animal rights." - Paul Watson.

 

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#43 Old 02-18-2012, 02:35 AM
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No, actually I was attempting a generous interpretation of why you seem to be defending this sick person.

I'll go back to my first question - have you recently been charged with misdemeanors?

Your interpretation was not generous.

Have you recently been charged with a couple of felonies? Did someone kill your cat and eat it?
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#44 Old 02-18-2012, 02:39 AM
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More generous interpretations for why someone would defend someone charged with extreme animal cruelty:

-they can't read what the charges are
-they have very short-term memory loss, so that when they start the defending, they don't remember what it is that they are really defending anymore
-they think the word 'cat' refers to inanimate beings

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#45 Old 02-18-2012, 02:44 AM
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Your interpretation was not generous.

Your thoughts about this story are so outlying that it's generous to think that there may be some reason like that that might be affecting your thoughts about it. That's much more sympathetic than that these are you emotionally unclouded beliefs. The guy shows signs of being a sadistic serial killer. He certainly is a sadistic serial killer of cats. Most people would not want to live near him, with good cause.

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Have you recently been charged with a couple of felonies?

Nope. Is there a felon I'm defending who might just happen to have some beliefs sympathetic to my own?

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#46 Old 02-18-2012, 03:12 AM
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Every single forummer who has replied to your initial post (I my-self didn't view the video, thinking that it would be upsetting) gets an answer from someone who does seem to favour the animal abuser.

It also seems that we are walking on egg shells everytime we post our point of view.

Why did you post this thread in the first place ? Surely you didn't think that anyone was going to find an excuse for what he did ?
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#47 Old 02-18-2012, 03:18 AM
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Absolutely not. Mentally well people do not feel relief when a human is killed instead of a non-human animal. They feel alarmed. Someone who feels relief that the human was shot is mentally abnormal, a sociopath. It is especially evil to feel this way about a human who was trying to protect the cat. I'm sorry, but that is really really sick, beyond my comprehension.

You have an amazing capacity to be absolute unbearable, you know that?

You also seem to find my posts more than seems strictly necessary.

I was reflecting on how we are trained by media to perceive violence towards humans vs. violence towards companion animals like dogs and cats. I said it was weird because it is bizarre, but it doesn't make me a sociopath, anymore than anyone who watches violent movies are sociopaths.

The fact that you can be so confidant about what makes up a mentally abnormal person when you are so clearly out of touch with the vast majority of people is baffling.

Also, I didn't even say that I was relieved when the woman was shot. I was pretty much unmoved by it. It is, after all, just a movie.
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#48 Old 02-18-2012, 03:40 AM
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I'd be willing to bet most people who watched that felt that way [relieved that the woman got shot instead of the cat]. Which is totally weird...

I was pretty much unmoved by it. It is, after all, just a movie.

The goal of play-acting is to cause people in the audience to have the same reaction as they would have, if the same thing happened in reality. In play-acting and play-writing parlance, it is called suspension of disbelief.

I was appalled when the woman got shot instead of the cat. The fact that this was play-acting has nothing to do with it. I believe that is how most people felt, and that feeling relieved would be an indication of sociopathy.
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#49 Old 02-18-2012, 03:43 AM
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I was appalled when the woman got shot instead of the cat. I believe that is how most people felt

That's called projection.

It is actually well-known that a lot of omnivores react more strongly to animal cruelty in movies than to humans being murdered, or to cops shooting dogs vs. footage of war. It's a general human phenomenon and doesn't really have much to do with veg*nism.

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#50 Old 02-18-2012, 03:46 AM
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I was appalled when the woman got shot instead of the cat. I believe that is how most people felt, and that feeling relieved would be an indication of sociopathy.

...whereas someone caught skinning neighborhood cats alive and eating them is just a persecuted, misunderstood guy...

"If you want to know where you would have stood on slavery before the civil war, don't look at where you stand on slavery today, look at where you stand on animal rights." - Paul Watson.

 

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#51 Old 02-18-2012, 03:52 AM
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...whereas someone caught skinning neighborhood cats alive and eating them is just a persecuted, misunderstood guy...

Spot on.
That is what I have also understood.
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#52 Old 02-18-2012, 03:56 AM
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That's called projection.

It is actually well-known that a lot of omnivores react more strongly to animal cruelty in movies than to humans being murdered, or to cops shooting dogs vs. footage of war. It's a general human phenomenon and doesn't really have much to do with veg*nism.

I find that difficult to believe. It doesn't make sense. Even if many people react that way, and I don't believe they do, it doesn't justify feeling that way.

Animal cruelty is a fact of life, and is something that people in many agricultural jobs participate in, directly. In many areas, many people are employed in such agricultural jobs. It is hard to believe they would be numb to it in their actual lives, but saddened by it in movies. It makes no sense.

It is interesting to note that at one time, it was common in movie-making, that when a scene called for an animal being injured, or killed, the way they got it to look realistic, was to actually do it. When a scene called for a human being being injured or killed, artifice was used to make the scene appear realistic, without actually injuring or killing any actual humans. That shows how much people really care about animal cruelty. They don't give a shoot. But if there is someone in their neigborhood that has too many weeds in their lawn, they get really upset about that, and say all kinds of bad things about him, that aren't really true. Because what are they going to say, I hate him because he has too many weeds in his lawn? That's not a good reason for getting him out of the neighborhood, they don't think. But the idea that he is capturing neigborhood cats and eating them - that sounds "gross." Notice they don't say "cruel," they say "gross." As in "I don’t feel like he should have been released [from prison]. He shouldn't be doing that. It’s gross." Or "First thing I wanted to do is throw up. It made me sick to my stomach."
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#53 Old 02-18-2012, 04:23 AM
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RedLotus, if you were arguing that it was not abnormal for people to feel relief that the man with the gun, was killed, instead of the cat, I might agree with you. But we were discussing whether it was normal for people to feel relief that the woman in the video was killed instead of the cat, not about whether animals are in general more vulnerable than people. To bring up the generality, was a strawman argument. In that specific instance, in the video, the cat was no more vulnerable than the woman, problably less vulnerable, given that the unarmed elderly woman walked right up to the man with the gun and begged him not to hurt the cat. If there is any person that one should feel empathy for, especially if we are someone who doesn't want animals to be hurt, that elderly woman would be the person to feel empathy for. For someone who professes to care about animals, being relieved that she was killed is hypocracy, as well as sociopathology. It also smacks of a propensity for elder-phobia, and tolerence of elder-abuse. The fact that in general, animals are more vulnerable than humans, has nothing to do with it.

Like I said, I didn't watch the video because I had zero desire to see violence being enacted toward an animal or person, fictional or not. So I could ONLY comment on the general aspect of it. But my point still has merit - that overall, many of us are conditioned to have very visceral and emotional responses to animals being harmed for the reasons I listed before, and that people tend to see harm towards animals as akin to harm towards a child - it tends to be more heinous and upsetting on an instinctual level because of the innocence and vulnerability of the animal vs that of a human. And even if an elderly woman is more vulnerable physically (I don't agree with that entirely, but for the sake of argument, fine), legally and socially she is STILL far more powerful than a cat. To argue that any animal in our society has any power over a human is ridiculous. I tend to think of animals very much like children in that sense (innocent, powerless, unable to comprehend complex situations or ideas, etc), and just as violence towards a child is very upsetting to me, so is violence towards an animal for the same reasons. And you could even argue that the woman in the video CHOSE to approach the man (again, I have not seen the video, only going by what you have repeated), and even though that OBVIOUSLY does not mean that her being shot is at ALL her fault or okay, it means that she still had SOME control and power in the situation (the power to choose to engage or not).

The fact that you are in all seriousness suggesting that anyone who was relieved that the cat was not harmed is a sociopath is absurd and shows a serious lack of understanding of what true sociopathology is. A sociopath would not care if the woman OR the cat were harmed. I have worked with actual sociopaths and trust me - you're way off base in your analysis here. And claiming statements of "elder-abuse" and "elder-phobia" is just completely grasping at straws. Honestly I can't help but feel that either you're seriously out of touch with reality or you're purposefully making inflammatory statements just to rile people up, because there's absolutely NO evidence to support such a claim. To believe that you can diagnose others' "phobias" of the elderly, or their feelings about elder-abuse, from ONE SENTENCE said half in jest about a FICTIONAL scenario is just ridiculous and arrogant.

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It's what I said. They don't like that he had too many weeds in his lawn. They are worried about their property values; they don't really even care about the cats. Just, anything to get him out of there. Any pretext they can come up with.

Seriously? Are you for real? If you are, I'd like to ask you for some lottery numbers. Because apparently you've spontaneously developed psychic powers that allow you to deduce personal motivations of complete strangers via sparsely-detailed articles on the internet, and maybe it you concentrate hard enough you can pluck some winning numbers out of thin air as well. How the hell do you know that he even HAS weeds in his lawn? It's incredibly egotistical to believe that you can somehow deduce complete strangers motivations with nothing to go on but one quote. It's bizarre, the way you twist everything about this scenario around to make the cat-skinning, fire-starting, animal abuser into the victim. It's like a second-hand persecution complex. And the fact that you make these statements as absolutes, as FACT, as though there is NO QUESTION that his neighbors are all just conniving, petty, gossiping hags intent on driving the poor, misunderstood cat-eater out of their neighborhood, is frankly rather telling. You seem to have decided that this guy is just a misunderstood victim (or worse, some innovative and resourceful hero to be applauded) and that everyone else involved in the story is simply petty and dishonest, and you're twisting everything else to fit that scenario regardless of how little support there is for your opinion.

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When they stop eating cattle, and start worrying that they themselves are going to start eating humans, that would have some meaning to me. Otherwise it is clear they just don't like this man, and are trying to come up with anything they can, to use against him. I don't doubt that the man was eating cats. But I really doubt that these neigbors of his really give a damn about the cats. Just look at their comments

Who said that they are worried he'll eat them? Again, you're projecting and assuming you know the inner-motivations and thoughts of strangers. You speak in absolutes - "clearly they don't like him" etc. They have reason to be concerned about this man. He is torturing animals and he sets fires - that's two out of three of McDonald's Triad of sociopathic behavior. If he happened to have wet the bed past age five, then he's got the trifecta. And honestly, the two that we KNOW he hits are the two more telling risk factors. If you want sociopathology, there you go. Those risk factors are present in a majority of serial killers and are listed in the DSM-IV as part of the diagnostic criteria for sociopathic personality disorder. This man could be a serious danger to those around him. At the very least he's a danger to their pets. If he were my neighbor I'd want him out, too. I wouldn't be able to leave my kitties home alone knowing there was someone nearby who was capable of skinning them alive and eating them. And the fire-setting alone is reason to be concerned. Would you want to live near someone prone to lighting things on fire? He could burn down homes or the neighborhood. He could set a fire that hurt children playing in the area.

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They don't express concern about the cats, just about the esthetics of the situation.

This is more hearsay. And probably made up. I am skeptical about whether there was really a neighbor who really had a cat that was missing.

It IS gross and nauseating. How do you know that they don't find it nauseating BECAUSE they care about animals? How do you know the next words out of those people's mouths weren't "those poor cats" or something similar? All you have to go on are edited soundbites from an article. Again, it's conceited to assume that you know what those people feel and think without ever having met them, spoken to them, or heard more than ONE SENTENCE from them without body language, tone of voice, or any other non-verbal communication to help establish mental state. You have zero evidence that the claim of a missing cat is "made up".

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This is what I gathered from having a conversation with a police officer that patrols the neigborhood. So I know the kind of bullshoot that people can just make up, when they don't like someone and want them out of the neigborhood.

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The neigbor told the reporter that a deputy told him, that another neighbor, said that. Thiis is hearsay that would not even be allowed in court. Rumor. Punishing someone based on rumor is not rule of law. That is not justice. That is mob vengeance based on rumors.

So getting information second-hand from a police officer is hearsay and completely unreliable rumor in the article, but when YOU are the one getting your information second-hand from the cops it's accurate? How does that work exactly?
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#54 Old 02-18-2012, 04:27 AM
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Even if many people react that way, and I don't believe they do, it doesn't justify feeling that way.

I don't think that feeling requires justification. Certainly not justification by you, any way.

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Animal cruelty is a fact of life, and is something that people in many agricultural jobs participate in, directly. In many areas, many people are employed in such agricultural jobs. It is hard to believe they would be numb to it in their actual lives, but saddened by it in movies. It makes no sense.

1) I don't think there would be anything weird in someone working in animal agriculture getting upset that non-humans get killed fictionally. For starters, in case you haven't noticed, people compartmentalize animals, so killing chickens doesn't mean you won't be upset when dogs get killed in movies. 2) Quite a large percentage of the population does not directly participate in animal cruelty as a part of agriculture.

As for speculating that the neighbors made it all up because they don't like the guy's weeds: that speculation is just a magical ride inside the amusement park of your imagination, nothing else.

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#55 Old 02-18-2012, 04:28 AM
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Fortunately, it is not presumptuous at all to call the cat abuser's neighbors (probable) liars.

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More generous interpretations for why someone would defend someone charged with extreme animal cruelty:

-they can't read what the charges are
-they have very short-term memory loss, so that when they start the defending, they don't remember what it is that they are really defending anymore
-they think the word 'cat' refers to inanimate beings

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Originally Posted by Sevenseas View Post

That's called projection.

It is actually well-known that a lot of omnivores react more strongly to animal cruelty in movies than to humans being murdered, or to cops shooting dogs vs. footage of war. It's a general human phenomenon and doesn't really have much to do with veg*nism.

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...whereas someone caught skinning neighborhood cats alive and eating them is just a persecuted, misunderstood guy...

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#56 Old 02-18-2012, 04:37 AM
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I find that difficult to believe. It doesn't make sense. Even if many people react that way, and I don't believe they do, it doesn't justify feeling that way.

Animal cruelty is a fact of life, and is something that people in many agricultural jobs participate in, directly. In many areas, many people are employed in such agricultural jobs. It is hard to believe they would be numb to it in their actual lives, but saddened by it in movies. It makes no sense.

It is interesting to note that at one time, it was common in movie-making, that when a scene called for an animal being injured, or killed, the way they got it to look realistic, was to actually do it. When a scene called for a human being being injured or killed, artifice was used to make the scene appear realistic, without actually injuring or killing any actual humans. That shows how much people really care about animal cruelty. They don't give a shoot. But if there is someone in their neigborhood that has too many weeds in their lawn, they get really upset about that, and say all kinds of bad things about him, that aren't really true. Because what are they going to say, I hate him because he has too many weeds in his lawn? That's not a good reason for getting him out of the neighborhood, they don't think. But the idea that he is capturing neigborhood cats and eating them - that sounds "gross." Notice they don't say "cruel," they say "gross." As in "I don’t feel like he should have been released [from prison]. He shouldn't be doing that. It’s gross." Or "First thing I wanted to do is throw up. It made me sick to my stomach."

Just because you don't understand something does not mean it's improbable.

Also, most people do NOT participate directly in professions that involve harm to animals. And your anecdote about how scenes involving animal harm USED to be done is irrelevant, seeing as it's outdated and not an accurate portrayal of current attitudes. Just look at the reactions from people when it came out that the elephant star of "Water for Elephants" was abused. They were outraged, saddened, and horrified. Because they DO give a "shoot".

You seem hung up on this weeds scenario. I'm starting to think that maybe your neighbors bullied you over your weedy lawn or something.

Just because ONE PERSON said "gross" doesn't mean that they speak for ALL of that neighborhood, or even that their statement says what you think it does. And the person who says that it made her "sick to her stomach" could very likely be reacting viscerally to the cruelty of the situation. When I watched Meat Your Meat I was literally sick to my stomach and vomited. Because the cruelty and pain was so overwhelming that it made me ill. Thinking about what this man did to those poor cats makes me feel nauseous. Because the thought of their suffering and pain makes me sick.
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#57 Old 02-18-2012, 06:13 PM
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I agree with the OP actually. I think you made a valid point. He should not have been charged. Would they charge someone who killed and ate a wild chicken? (Yes they are around) Probably not because of our ranking of animals in society. If he would have been, that would also have been stupid because slaughterhouses do much worse, and nobody is charging the slaughterhouses for murdering animals. *roll eyes*

However if he was torturing or skinning the cat alive, then yes he should have been charged.

"Why should man expect his prayer for mercy to be heard by What is above him when he shows no mercy to what is under him?" ~Pierre Troubetzkoy
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#58 Old 02-18-2012, 06:13 PM
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Why is soilman defending eating cats?
Why isn't he advocating eating roadkill, or anything that dies on it's own?
Cats and dogs are respected in general as companion animals, regardless of whether they're feral or not. Homeless people are often found dead from exposure but we don't allow them to be beaten to death. Or skinned alive.

Why is this on VB?

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#59 Old 02-18-2012, 06:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4everaspirit View Post

I agree with the OP actually. I think you made a valid point. He should not have been charged. Would they charge someone who killed and ate a wild chicken? (Yes they are around) Probably not because of our ranking of animals in society. If he would have been, that would also have been stupid because slaughterhouses do much worse, and nobody is charging the slaughterhouses for murdering animals. *roll eyes*

However if he was torturing or skinning the cat alive, then yes he should have been charged.

It's against the law to eat cats in Bakersfield. If you break the law, you shoulf be charged with breaking the law.
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#60 Old 02-18-2012, 06:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4everaspirit View Post

I agree with the OP actually. I think you made a valid point. He should not have been charged. Would they charge someone who killed and ate a wild chicken? (Yes they are around) Probably not because of our ranking of animals in society. If he would have been, that would also have been stupid because slaughterhouses do much worse, and nobody is charging the slaughterhouses for murdering animals. *roll eyes*

When do we start eating babies? Especially now that abortion rights are being denied.
And why not? If you can argue for eating animals that have been domesticated, accepted as human companions, and can't even fare well if abandoned. Even the most hardened omnivore can accept that dogs and cats are off limits.
I'd be happier if even one other animal could be made saved.

The day you can be allowed to catch and kill an animal regularly known as a family member is the day you can beat people to death if they're living outside of societies protection.

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