some vegetables aren't vegan because they are a by-product of fish farming - VeggieBoards
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#1 Old 02-01-2012, 10:44 AM
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You can't have it both ways.

If it is not vegan to eat the primary products of animal husbandry, such as flesh, but vegan to eat vegetables grown with products of animal husbandry such as excrement, blood meal, and bone meal, because these animal products are "by"-products of animal husbandry as opposed to primary products, then it is not vegan to eat vegetables which are themselves the by-products of animal husbandry, as opposed to the primary product of business operation. You can't have it both ways.

Here is a example of a business operation where vegetables are a by-product of animal husbandry. Read this article on the subject of aquaponics as a by-product of fishfarming. Aquaponics can involve soil-grown plants, but are often involve hydroponics. The author provides the following quote from an article on fish farming

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My focus has always been and continues to be concentrated on quality fish growing systems with the aquaponics being the secondary profit center. Aquaponics was started to have a place to dispose of the fish waste in a profitable manner

Looking at the vegetables for sale at Whole Foods, I see lots of vegetables that have labels saying they are greenhouse grown or hydroponically grown. I suspect that many of these are a by product of fish farms. In particular I've noticed hydroponically grown watercress.

Again and again I see vegans whining about how non-vegans don't provide them with enough vegan food choices in restaurants owned and operated by non-vegans, whining about how non-vegan commercial food producers don't make products vegan by removing non-vegan ingredients. Stop whining, and start growing your own food, operating your own restaurants, and operating your own commercial food production. We must take control of the means of production[edited], rather than whine to the people that are in control. Otherwise we will continue to be those whiny vegans that everyone hates.

Effin grow up.

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#2 Old 02-01-2012, 05:48 PM
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If you can come up with some magical revolutionary way to turn the factory system into sunshine and rainbows, Mr. Gramps, then this might be a conceivable possibility.

There are some things that are hard-wired into the system. Until the root of it stops (the meat industry) then this stuff is probably not going to stop. I'd love to think it could be protested or whined away, but everything is so intertwined right now and has so much support that it's not just going to change whether we "effin grow up" or not.

In the end, what you're doing is even bigger whining than the whiners are doing. If you're so concerned about it, get out there and change it however you want everyone else to and stop whining about it on an internet forum in the hopes that someone else will do it for you.

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#3 Old 02-01-2012, 06:28 PM
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If you can come up with some magical revolutionary way to turn the factory system into sunshine and rainbows, Mr. Gramps, then this might be a conceivable possibility.

There are some things that are hard-wired into the system. Until the root of it stops (the meat industry) then this stuff is probably not going to stop. I'd love to think it could be protested or whined away, but everything is so intertwined right now and has so much support that it's not just going to change whether we "effin grow up" or not.

In the end, what you're doing is even bigger whining than the whiners are doing. If you're so concerned about it, get out there and change it however you want everyone else to and stop whining about it on an internet forum in the hopes that someone else will do it for you.

What he said

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#4 Old 02-01-2012, 06:32 PM
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I think about the use of animal products in organic farming a lot. To combat my support of it, I grow absolutely as much of my food as I can, at this point, maybe half of what I consume year round. Sometimes I think vegans, myself included, use the as practical as possible clause a little too freely.
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#5 Old 02-01-2012, 10:47 PM
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Soilman: You are mistaken. A vegan is someone who abstains from consuming animal products as much as possible, at least to the point of avoiding meat, dairy, eggs, fur, leather, and wool. That's it.

Don't take it down the slippery slope into the realm where people are more concerned about their personal purity than they are about the impact they can have on the world. For every veganic gardener you produce with your rant you steal an activist from the animal movement. By all accounts, the activists save more animal lives, plain and simple.

The people for whom veganism is a boycott against either factory farming or all animal exploitation have chosen the correct products to boycott: animal products. These are the products that if we withdraw our financial support, the industries will notice and they may change their behaviors. One could choose to boycott plant foods that have been grown using slaughterhouse byproducts, but it's unlikely that this sort of boycott would have any effect on the slaughterhouses, at least not until there are much larger numbers of vegans.

The people for whom veganism is not a boycott avoid animal products because those products are not food, clothing, entertainment, etc. It's simple: "animals are my friends, not my food." Byproducts are another issue entirely. The intervening causes/ levels of indirection matter, as do the practical effects of abstaining from all things produced with slaughterhouse byproducts.

You're promoting an impossible goal of some vague and arbitrary notion of "pure" veganism. Veganism is about avoiding animal products; it's not about avoiding all animal products and byproducts and products made with byproducts and products made with products made with byproducts... We ought to look from the perspective of trying to do the most good rather than simply looking to do the least harm. There comes a point when there are diminishing returns on our avoidance of things we call nonvegan; there's a time after we've gone vegan and are comfortable as vegans that we'll do far more good for animals, the planet, and perhaps even our own health by encouraging other people to reduce their animal product consumption rather than spending more energy trying to perfect ourselves.
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#6 Old 02-01-2012, 11:42 PM
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Ugh, it is just so sick. There is a small hydroponic farm near me that sells its produce to the public. I've always meant to stop by there, but I think I will call them to ask if they use fish stuff.

ElaineV, again you have given me a lot to think about with your post.
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#7 Old 02-02-2012, 03:32 AM
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Soilman: You are mistaken. A vegan is someone who abstains from consuming animal products as much as possible, at least to the point of avoiding meat, dairy, eggs, fur, leather, and wool. That's it.

Don't take it down the slippery slope into the realm where people are more concerned about their personal purity than they are about the impact they can have on the world. For every veganic gardener you produce with your rant you steal an activist from the animal movement. By all accounts, the activists save more animal lives, plain and simple.

The people for whom veganism is a boycott against either factory farming or all animal exploitation have chosen the correct products to boycott: animal products. These are the products that if we withdraw our financial support, the industries will notice and they may change their behaviors. One could choose to boycott plant foods that have been grown using slaughterhouse byproducts, but it's unlikely that this sort of boycott would have any effect on the slaughterhouses, at least not until there are much larger numbers of vegans.

The people for whom veganism is not a boycott avoid animal products because those products are not food, clothing, entertainment, etc. It's simple: "animals are my friends, not my food." Byproducts are another issue entirely. The intervening causes/ levels of indirection matter, as do the practical effects of abstaining from all things produced with slaughterhouse byproducts.

You're promoting an impossible goal of some vague and arbitrary notion of "pure" veganism. Veganism is about avoiding animal products; it's not about avoiding all animal products and byproducts and products made with byproducts and products made with products made with byproducts... We ought to look from the perspective of trying to do the most good rather than simply looking to do the least harm. There comes a point when there are diminishing returns on our avoidance of things we call nonvegan; there's a time after we've gone vegan and are comfortable as vegans that we'll do far more good for animals, the planet, and perhaps even our own health by encouraging other people to reduce their animal product consumption rather than spending more energy trying to perfect ourselves.

You are being vauge and ambiguous. I am mistaken about what? You don't say. Don't take what down a slippery slope? I didn't say anything about boycotting anything.

I'll rescind my claim that vegetables that are a byproduct of the animal husbandry business are non-vegan. And, personally, I sometimes resort to buying and eating such vegetables. But I still maintain it is hypocritical to approve of such vegetables, which are by-products of animal husbandry, whilst at the same time claiming the reason you approve of using excrement and animal materials to feed plants (which plants I also sometimes buy and eat), is because these materials are "only by-products" as opposed to main products.

I resort to buying and eat such things, because I am presently unable to grow all my food veganly, but I wish I didn't have to, and am striving to get a vegan garden so I won't have to. But I don't rationalize the acceptance of the use of animal matter by saying it is a by-product as opposed to a main product.

Personally, not only am I concerned about the suffering inflicted upon animals, but I am concerned about the health risks of eating plants cultivated in tilth that is high in decaying animal matter. (1) Animal matter is a disease vector. (2) Putting animal matter in the soil results in the concentration of toxic matter in the soil, which is taken up by some food plants. The more layers of animals eating animals, the worse the toxicity. For example carnivorous animals that eat herbivorous animals have more toxic metals in their feces than herbivorous animals. Carnivorous animals that eat other carnivorous animals, have even more than that.

"The people for whom veganism is not a boycott avoid animal products because those products are not food, clothing, entertainment, etc. It's simple: "animals are my friends, not my food." Byproducts are another issue entirely. The intervening causes/ levels of indirection matter, as do the practical effects of abstaining from all things produced with slaughterhouse byproducts. "

I don't understand what you are saying there. I am especially baffled by the phrase "intervening causes/levels of indirection."

In any case, I am not suggesting that anyone must abstain from all things produced with slaughterhouse products, in order to be defined as being a vegan. I am simply saying that I don't like the use of slaughterhouse products, and I would emphatically like to suggest that people make a bigger effort to grow food, without using such products. It is not hard. It just requires land and labor.
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#8 Old 02-02-2012, 04:01 AM
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You can't have it both ways.

I understood your point Soily.

A world totaly free of both product and by-products of animal abuse is the logical vegan ideal, kinda thing?

At the current time I think that living free of all products and by-products of human abuse would be almost impossible to acheive though.

Probably we should be pursuing that ideal without forgetting that if we take on the job of cleaning up a sewer (as it were) then it is highly unrealistic to expect to avoid every single piece of 'poo'?

Under seperate heading ..

A dung free world presents a seperate problem; Feces, as fertiliser, are a VERY important factor in the production of vitamin B12.
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#9 Old 02-02-2012, 04:20 AM
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Clueless Git, I'm not for a poo-free world, or for cultivating vegetables without any excrement. But I don't want to use excrement which is produced in the course of cultivating animals commercially. I expect that an occasional rabbit will get into a garden and poop in it. Same for birds, deer, etc. And of course earthworm castings are part of normal garden soil, as is the poop of tiny animals called nematodes. Beneficial nematodes make up about 40% of garden soil. A small amount of hervivorous mammal poop mixed in with a large amount of soil is not the problem. The problem is depending upon large amounts of excrement, urine, blood meal, and bone meal, and depending on this to feed your plants nitrogen, and phosphorous, instead of depending primarily on composted plant matter ( composted outside of a bird or mammal gi tract), green manures, and cover crops. A bucket full of cow feces in 2000 square feet of soil is not a problem. The problem is a wheelbarrow full of feces, plus another wheelbarrow full of blood meal, and another of bone meal.
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#10 Old 02-02-2012, 11:44 AM
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However plants neither produce nor uptake vitamin b12, so feeding them or amending their soil with excrement will not make any difference regarding availability of b12 from food-plant sources. The b12 that comes from soil comes from the soil itself (which is up to 40% nematodes), from organic matter decaying in the soil, and I think it may be there whether the soil has excrement in it or not. It is a product of micro-organisms metabolizing various kinds of carbohydrates. Regardless, carbohydrate fermentation is the most frequent process for producing it commercially. See soil nematodes.

It is the plant based carbohydrates including cellulose, decaying in soil, that result in b12. This process also occurs in excrement, since excrment is little more than a compost pile inside an animal, with some of the compost being absorbed by the animal, and therefore not a valuable as compost made in a compost pile or bin, but the process does not require excrement.

I should add that simply handling soil in any matter kills millions of animals of the class nematoda and that nematodes are the most abundant of all animals, I believe by weight and certainly by numbers, yet we know relatively little about them. They are not truly microscopic, as a single nematode can generally be discerned, if you have good or normal eyesight, if you isolate it and put it on a uniformly white or gray surface. If it were smaller you wouldn't be able to see it.

Cultivating good soil means you are cultivating nematodes. They are indespensible for breakdown of organic matter in soil and making it available to plants. But feces is not.
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#11 Old 02-02-2012, 11:47 AM
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I think non-vegan vegetables are a growing concern, just the other day I saw a broccoli wearing a pretentious wool cap.

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#12 Old 02-02-2012, 12:22 PM
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For every veganic gardener you produce with your rant you steal an activist from the animal movement. By all accounts, the activists save more animal lives, plain and simple.

I disagree with both claims. The first one doesn't even make any sense. You can be an animal activist and a vegan gardener or farmer. As for the second, I agree with Mohandes Gandi, be the change you want to see in the world.
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#13 Old 02-02-2012, 01:43 PM
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I think what the OP is basically saying is that you whiny vegans should just shut up and starve yourselves because nothing on this planet is "100% vegan". That would solve the problem, right? Especially if you don't give two flying ****s about animal welfare.

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#14 Old 02-02-2012, 02:52 PM
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I don't understand what you are saying there. I am especially baffled by the phrase "intervening causes/levels of indirection."

Intervening cause: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intervening_cause

What I'm saying is that you're not morally responsible for the actions of another person if those actions are so far removed from your actions that you can't encourage that person to behave in an ethical manner.

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You can be an animal activist and a vegan gardener or farmer. As for the second, I agree with Mohandes Gandi, be the change you want to see in the world.

Practically speaking, if one dedicates 40-60 hours per week farming, they have little time left for animal activism.
I will, however, concede that someone who is very dedicated could do both and perhaps even do both well.

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I think what the OP is basically saying is that you whiny vegans should just shut up and starve yourselves because nothing on this planet is "100% vegan". That would solve the problem, right? Especially if you don't give two flying ****s about animal welfare.

This may very well be true.
Calling vegans hypocrites if they eat produce that has been fertilized with animal waste doesn't actually benefit animals, the environment, or human health. It's a fruitless activity.
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#15 Old 02-02-2012, 03:07 PM
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I understood your point Soily.

A world totaly free of both product and by-products of animal abuse is the logical vegan ideal, kinda thing?

At the current time I think that living free of all products and by-products of human abuse would be almost impossible to acheive though.

Probably we should be pursuing that ideal without forgetting that if we take on the job of cleaning up a sewer (as it were) then it is highly unrealistic to expect to avoid every single piece of 'poo'?

Under seperate heading ..

A dung free world presents a seperate problem; Feces, as fertiliser, are a VERY important factor in the production of vitamin B12.

I... agree...? With Clueless Git?

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#16 Old 02-02-2012, 03:09 PM
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ElaineV

I disagree with both claims. The first one doesn't even make any sense. You can be an animal activist and a vegan gardener or farmer. As for the second, I agree with Mohandes Gandi, be the change you want to see in the world.

Then be the damn change and stop whining about it! If you feel it's conceivable to stop the system like this, then by all means go for it! It'd certainly be ideal to stop using fertilizer that has animal byproducts in it (a fact that I'm still quite skeptical about) but sitting here and complaining about what others have described as "personal purity" isn't going to change anything.

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#17 Old 02-02-2012, 04:14 PM
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Interesting. This is the first story I saw on the news this morning when I woke up.

http://www.kcci.com/video/30360026/detail.html

It's been rumbling around in my head all day. I'm glad to see a post about it here in the Heap. I think that we like to talk a good story about the disconnect that omnis have, but can you really say that this is an okay product for vegans? For me the answer is "no". I'm really not even sure that they are vegetarian vegetables.

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#18 Old 02-02-2012, 04:27 PM
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Intervening cause: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intervening_cause



This may very well be true.
Calling vegans hypocrites if they eat produce that has been fertilized with animal waste doesn't actually benefit animals, the environment, or human health. It's a fruitless activity.

For the third time, I didn't call anyone a hypocrit for what they eat. I called some people a hypocrit, for what they say. I said that you are a hypocrit if on one hand you say its ok to use slaughterhouse waste because the animal products are by products, and at the same time, you say it is ok to use fish waste because the vegetables are by products. That's all I said. I'm not saying that anyone who uses either vegetable is a hypocrit, or a non vegan.
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#19 Old 02-02-2012, 04:29 PM
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I'm really not even sure that they are vegetarian vegetables.

Yea, and they damn sure aren't cruelty free. By a long shot.
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#20 Old 02-02-2012, 04:30 PM
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I didn't do that. I said that you are a hypocrit if on one hand you say its ok to use slaughterhouse waste because the animal products are by products, and at the same time, you say it is ok to use fish waste because the vegetables are by products. That's all I said. I'm not saying that anyone who uses either vegetable is a hypocrit, or a non vegan.


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#21 Old 02-02-2012, 04:30 PM
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I didn't do that. I said that you are a hypocrit if on one hand you say its ok to use slaughterhouse waste because the animal products are by products, and at the same time, you say it is ok to use fish waste because the vegetables are by products. That's all I said. I'm not saying that anyone who uses either vegetable is a hypocrit, or a non vegan.

Hypocrite, gramps. Hypocrite.

Also, byproducts is one word.

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#22 Old 02-02-2012, 04:37 PM
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In the age of instant information, this seems like an easy enough thing to check out. I couldn't buy vegetables produced in this way.

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#23 Old 02-02-2012, 04:44 PM
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Interesting. This is the first story I saw on the news this morning when I woke up.

http://www.kcci.com/video/30360026/detail.html

It's been rumbling around in my head all day. I'm glad to see a post about it here in the Heap. I think that we like to talk a good story about the disconnect that omnis have, but can you really say that this is an okay product for vegans? For me the answer is "no". I'm really not even sure that they are vegetarian vegetables.


Good link mrsschu. Look at those big fish swimming around in those little tanks... It makes me sad.

There has got to be a better way to get our vegetables. This aquaponics is become more and more widespread. We won't have change if we mostly just complain to farmers, or beg them to do things differntly. Non-vegans cant' be depended upon to do things veganly. Yes, elaine, not all vegans have time to become farmers, but we need more vegan farmers. We have to get out farming tools and do it ourselves.

Vegkid, stop whining. I dont' want to "stop" the system. I want to do as much as possible vegan style, and put lots of vegan grown food on the market. Compete with the non-vegan methods. Vegan methods are not more expensive. They should actually be cheaper, if done on a large scale. Whether pesticides are resorted to, or not. And whether cheap haber-process N is used to supplement cover crops, green manures, and plant source compost (with a bit of naturally occuring bird poop falling into it) or not. And lots and lots of nematode poop - unavoidable. But we don't need poop, or slaughterhouse byproducts, from commercialy culitivated mammals, birds, amphibians, fish, and reptiles. With an end to slaugherhouses, these won't even be available in sufficient quantity. And in fact, before 1917, and the invention of Haber process N, they were in short supply, and expensive. Even with the substantial amt of animal agriculture that existed at the time, there just wasn't enough poop or enough bone meal.

Also, deep rooted plants such as trees, provide leaves which provide mineral micronutrients that can't be supplied by animal waste. And again, by feeding the leaves, first, to animals, many minerals are absorbed by the animals, and don't end up in their poop (may be in their bone meal tho), and thus aren't available to the plants you are feeding their poop to. See the above links re composting in an animals' gi tract, vs composting in a compost bin or pile. Tract is faster. Pile has more nutrients.
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#24 Old 02-02-2012, 04:56 PM
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What are they feeding those fish that are involved in aquaponics? No one has delved into that yet. I don't think aquaponics is a completely closed system. I suspect some kind of agricultural product, grown somewhere else altogether, is being fed to the fish.

http://urbangardenmagazine.com/2011/...ing-your-fish/

This negates all the hypothetical benefits of using fish waste to feed your hyroponically grown plants, as perhaps you could have fed your plants directly, instead, with what you fed to the fish.
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#25 Old 02-02-2012, 04:59 PM
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Good question. I suspect that you are correct, but can't verify it without calling them.

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#26 Old 02-02-2012, 05:26 PM
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Good link mrsschu. Look at those big fish swimming around in those little tanks... It makes me sad.

There has got to be a better way to get our vegetables. This aquaponics is become more and more widespread. We won't have change if we mostly just complain to farmers, or beg them to do things differntly. Non-vegans cant' be depended upon to do things veganly. Yes, elaine, not all vegans have time to become farmers, but we need more vegan farmers. We have to get out farming tools and do it ourselves.

Vegkid, stop whining. I dont' want to "stop" the system. I want to do as much as possible vegan style, and put lots of vegan grown food on the market. Compete with the non-vegan methods. Vegan methods are not more expensive. They should actually be cheaper, if done on a large scale. Whether pesticides are resorted to, or not. And whether cheap haber-process N is used to supplement cover crops, green manures, and plant source compost (with a bit of naturally occuring bird poop falling into it) or not. And lots and lots of nematode poop - unavoidable. But we don't need poop, or slaughterhouse byproducts, from commercialy culitivated mammals, birds, amphibians, fish, and reptiles. With an end to slaugherhouses, these won't even be available in sufficient quantity. And in fact, before 1917, and the invention of Haber process N, they were in short supply, and expensive. Even with the substantial amt of animal agriculture that existed at the time, there just wasn't enough poop or enough bone meal.

Also, deep rooted plants such as trees, provide leaves which provide mineral micronutrients that can't be supplied by animal waste. And again, by feeding the leaves, first, to animals, many minerals are absorbed by the animals, and don't end up in their poop (may be in their bone meal tho), and thus aren't available to the plants you are feeding their poop to. See the above links re composting in an animals' gi tract, vs composting in a compost bin or pile. Tract is faster. Pile has more nutrients.


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#27 Old 02-02-2012, 05:42 PM
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seriouslyl vegkid, I don't want to write letters to mr and mrs hassenvoort saying I love your lovely vegetables but could you please stop raising fish in little tanks and feed your vegetables with something other than their poop. I simply want to rasie vegetables a better way, and compete with them on the open market. This would actually be easier

and remove gov subsidies if they are getting any, for growing fish.

From http://urbangardenmagazine.com/2011/...ing-your-fish/
Quote:
The protein in fish feed comes mainly from fish meal. Fish meal can come from fishery wastes associated with the processing of fish for human consumption or from specific fish (herring, menhaden and pollack) which are harvested solely for the purpose of producing fish meal.

There is currently intense debate within the aquaponic and aquaculture communities about the wisdom of adding to the serious problem of over-fishing our oceans by feeding our farm-raised fish – fish from the ocean. Thankfully, many experts are conducting ground breaking research to develop protein substitutes for fish meal. An article in the Aquaponics Journal (issue #56, Q1 2010) highlighted three companies creating protein sources. At Ohio State University, aquaculturalists are exploring the feasibility of using soybeans to replace fish meal and plan to soon test the product on yellow perch.

How disgusting can you get. You don't like ocean-netted herring, menhaden, or pollack, so you set up a "fish farm" and convert them to telapia, which you like the taste of better. And as an after thought, you slightly reduce the wasteful excrement produced by this process, by feeding some of it to plants, which vegans buy, among others. Charming.

Then you public-relate, spin, the whole thing as being environmentally friendly, and the stupid public, including the stupid vegans, buy the story. Show the pretty tanks and the pretty plants n the greenhouse, show the good parts to the public, with lovely web sites, and leave out the bad parts. Charming.

The greenhouses are progaganda to put a pretty face on a disgusting facts about fish farming. Sell the vegetables produced at specialty food stores, at inflated prices.
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#28 Old 02-02-2012, 05:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by soilman View Post

seriouslyl vegkid, I don't want to write letters to mr and mrs hassenvoort saying I love your lovely vegetables but could you please stop raising fish in little tanks and feed your vegetables with something other than their poop. I simply want to rasie vegetables a better way, and compete with them on the open market. This would actually be easier

and remove gov subsidies if they are getting any, for growing fish.

From http://urbangardenmagazine.com/2011/...ing-your-fish/

I understand what you mean, but I still don't agree with you on quite the same level.

Also, your posts are starting to become incomprehensible. Could you work on that a little please for your sake and ours?

Enjoying the view over at http://forum.veggieviews.com/

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#29 Old 02-02-2012, 07:06 PM
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Soil, you may want to edit your posts to correct their meanings. I think what you mean to say is this:
'You are being inconsistent if on one hand you say its not ok to use slaughterhouse waste because the animal products are byproducts yet at the same time you say it is ok to use fish waste because the vegetables are byproducts.'
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#30 Old 02-02-2012, 07:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by soilman View Post

seriouslyl vegkid, I don't want to write letters to mr and mrs hassenvoort saying I love your lovely vegetables but could you please stop raising fish in little tanks and feed your vegetables with something other than their poop. I simply want to rasie vegetables a better way, and compete with them on the open market. This would actually be easier

OK, so YOU do it and then write posts about how great it is. Please don't call us hypocrites if we don't jump on your capitalist veganic gardening bandwagon.
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