some vegetables aren't vegan because they are a by-product of fish farming - Page 2 - VeggieBoards
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#31 Old 02-03-2012, 12:28 PM
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Also, remember that "as much as is possible and practical" is part of the vegan definition. It's not exactly practical for me to check into every single place where I eat every single thing that I eat and see if they used vegetables which come from a source which might use fish waste as fertilizer. I'm already told by my parents (including my vegan mother) that I'm too extreme for wanting to check into places to make sure their sugar is vegan, etc. so I don't do that for the time being until it is practical. Maybe when I get older I can have my own little vegetable garden or something but until then I'm just going to have to take that gamble. I don't think I'm a hypocrite for doing that, and if I am so be it, but I know this is the case with A LOT of people, on here and off here.

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#32 Old 02-03-2012, 01:32 PM
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>> jeez, the arrogance & pedantry of people who publicly correct other peoples grammar and sentence structure is puke inducing.




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Originally Posted by mrsschu2u View Post

In the age of instant information, this seems like an easy enough thing to check out. I couldn't buy vegetables produced in this way.

yep, me neither. if an alternative wasnt available tho, id use the possible & practical clause.

auto correct can kiss my ask
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#33 Old 02-03-2012, 01:38 PM
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>> jeez, the arrogance & pedantry of people who publicly correct other peoples grammar and sentence structure is puke inducing.






yep, me neither. if an alternative wasnt available tho, id use the possible & practical clause.

I usually try to shut up about it even though it's one of the things that makes me so angry I could kick something, but in this case I had to speak up because not only does Soilman usually talk with grammar/spelling that ISN'T insanely horrible, he was trying to be taken seriously, and I can't take anyone serosley if thay tlk liek this.

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#34 Old 02-03-2012, 01:51 PM
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I know that you can buy veganically grown fruit and veg as I have seen adverts about it at vegan fayres but if a vegan would stick to these rules about the way vegan food was grown then it would make eating processed food and eating out at restaurants virtually impossible.
I buy organic fruit and veg occasionally which uses a lot of blood and bonemeal. It wouldn't be restricted to food either if you would apply this rule to vegans, why would you wear clothes made from crops grown using animal products?
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#35 Old 02-03-2012, 02:16 PM
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I usually try to shut up about it even though it's one of the things that makes me so angry I could kick something, but in this case I had to speak up because not only does Soilman usually talk with grammar/spelling that ISN'T insanely horrible, he was trying to be taken seriously, and I can't take anyone serosley if thay tlk liek this.

Spelling errors really make you that angry?
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#36 Old 02-03-2012, 03:41 PM
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Any spelling errors in the following post are possibly intentional.

So we read labels until our eyes bleed looking for diglycerides, D3, l-cystein, cassein, rennet, lanolin, honey and on and on and on so we can avoid purchasing products containing them but when it comes to bone meal, blood meal, manure, fish waste, fish farms, and other animal products used in the agriculture industry there's barely a hint of interest and the person bringing it up is derided, mocked, and called a whiner.

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#37 Old 02-03-2012, 04:07 PM
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Any spelling errors in the following post are possibly intentional.

So we read labels until our eyes bleed looking for diglycerides, D3, l-cystein, cassein, rennet, lanolin, honey and on and on and on so we can avoid purchasing products containing them but when it comes to bone meal, blood meal, manure, fish waste, fish farms, and other animal products used in the agriculture industry there's barely a hint of interest and the person bringing it up is derided, mocked, and called a whiner.


I think a lot of the negative reaction is a result of the OP's caustic tone (e.g. "stop whining", "effin grow up"), which some people may have taken personally.
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#38 Old 02-03-2012, 04:10 PM
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I think a lot of the negative reaction is a result of the OP's caustic tone (e.g. "stop whining", "effin grow up"), which some people may have taken personally.

Pretty much. I'm only dragging out the whining thing because I thought it was moderately amusing when he brought it up in the first place.

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#39 Old 02-03-2012, 04:49 PM
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tone and semantics aside, I really wish I never opened this thread.

Now I will be chewing vegetables and getting all weird and guilty and grossed out, wondering if they were grown with fish feces from fish that were all crammed into tanks.

How can you tell if a vegetable has been grown this way? Is it on the label? Is there a way to look these things up?

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#40 Old 02-03-2012, 06:50 PM
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If the fish were fed some of the vegetables, it would be bad enough, but to make things worse, the farmed fish are in some instances fed wild fish (that have been caught in nets) - so two sets of fish are getting mistreated.
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#41 Old 02-03-2012, 07:34 PM
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tone and semantics aside, I really wish I never opened this thread.

+1


I compost the contents of my rabbits' litterboxes, and add the results to my vegetable garden. I'll never be vegan now.
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#42 Old 02-04-2012, 01:30 AM
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I am all for encouraging people to do veganic farming (I have a box in my garden full of vegetable compost that I will start using in Spring, but there is literally nothing that I could grow in the amount of space I have in this country in winter) but I think it is unfair to expect everyone to do it and pointless to moan at people for eating vegetables that are not grown this way. I get really annoyed when people start picking on something saying it is 'not vegan' when it is widely and universally accepted to be vegan and pretty much impossible to avoid.

Imagine trying to avoid any veg grown with animal matter. It would mean no eating in restaurants, no eating at friends houses (even if they offered to make you an otherwise vegan meal) no buying from supermarkets, and very few people have enough space to grow enough varied vegetables for themselves even in the warmer months never mind this time of year. The other thing to be mindful of is that many many people see veganism as a very hard thing to do. Don't make it literally impossible or there will be no vegans left!!!
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#43 Old 02-04-2012, 06:45 AM
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I am not concerned here about defining who is vegan, or who we should label, or not label, as being vegan. I'm content to call anyone who avoids animal products in their food, a vegan, even if some of the ingredients at the end of the ingredient list, used in small amounts, may be non-vegan. What I am concerned about is what can we do so that animals are not harmed, so that they suffer less, at the hands of humans. If eating plant food grown a certain way, is going to cause substantially more suffering than eating plant food grown another way, then it makes sense to make an effort to choose plants grown the better way. If the market place is such that it is hard to be able to distinguish how plants were grown, then it makes sense to empower the people who care about the suffering of animals in the hands of humans, by taking over the means of production ourselves - putting more agriculture and manufacturing and marketing of food products into the hands of people who care.
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#44 Old 02-04-2012, 08:35 AM
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Originally Posted by lucky_charm View Post

... but I think it is unfai I get really annoyed when people start picking on something saying it is 'not vegan' when it is widely and universally accepted to be vegan and pretty much impossible to avoid.

Imagine trying to avoid any veg grown with animal matter. It would mean no eating in restaurants, no eating at friends houses (even if they offered to make you an otherwise vegan meal) no buying from supermarkets, and very few people have enough space to grow enough varied vegetables for themselves even in the warmer months never mind this time of year. The other thing to be mindful of is that many many people see veganism as a very hard thing to do. Don't make it literally impossible or there will be no vegans left!!!

I agree with you. But this isn't "widely and universally accepted practice". In the case of the Iowa farm, it made news because it is an anomaly in the heart of farm country. As for me, it will change my own practices at the farmer's market and when sources are labeled at the grocery store. That's certainly practical and possible FOR ME.

Disclaimer: I don't always proofread and sometimes fat finger keys, and once in a while, I even misspell things all together.

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#45 Old 02-04-2012, 09:18 AM
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I grow as much as I can, but having very little land to do so is more of a problem than just being able to '"effin grow up" and stop complaining.
Complaints is a great way to get the changes we want in addition to the actions we take. There's no reason to do something for ourselves and not let the world also hear what we want - the squeaky wheal gets the oil; Voice and action both together.

The important thing to remember is that we're trying to do our best in this world. We're not the ones supporting McDonalds and other fast food chains with our purchases, we have no business in the meat industry, we're generally good people who are not afforded the time and resources to grow every fruit consumed -- we're stuck in a system; a system that will change either by our good intentions or crushed by its own insustainability.
Every vegan gets my respect, as well as anyone actively trying to make this world a better place.
But good point about growing more food -- definitely support this idea :^]

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#46 Old 02-04-2012, 09:39 AM
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I grow as much as I can, but having very little land to do so is more of a problem than just being able to '"effin grow up" and stop complaining.
Complaints is a great way to get the changes we want in addition to the actions we take. There's no reason to do something for ourselves and not let the world also hear what we want - the squeaky wheal gets the oil; Voice and action both together.

Yeah, complaining makes a difference. What I'm annoyed with is that soilman is telling everyone to stop complaining and do something about it, while at the same time he's complaining and doing nothing about it.

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#47 Old 02-04-2012, 10:05 AM
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tone and semantics aside, I really wish I never opened this thread.

Now I will be chewing vegetables and getting all weird and guilty and grossed out, wondering if they were grown with fish feces from fish that were all crammed into tanks.

How can you tell if a vegetable has been grown this way? Is it on the label? Is there a way to look these things up?

Not easily, no. But it's a safe assumption that most vegetables use manure, bloodmeal, bonemeal, feather meal, fish emulsion...

Soilman is focusing on hydroponic veg, which I've rarely seen in organics, recently I saw some hydroponic eggplant. I thought it wasn't possible to grow organic hydroponic veg, but maybe it's because of the aquaponics system that they can do that.

Watercress is always hydroponic because watercress grows in water. We've never been able to carry it organically in my store and I assumed it was because it used chemical fertilizer (which is true with most hydroponics), so I don't know how realistic it is to assume that it was grown with fish waste, could be chemical (which is... better? ).

Even if you avoid hydroponics there is almost no chance that the veg you buy is grown veganically unless it is from a specifically vegan farm (rare to they extreme, there are certainly none that sell to my store). Small local growers are just as likely to use blood/bone/fish/feather meal, and as a gardener I can tell you it's extremely difficult to buy vegan fertilizers and compost, much of it is animal derived (we manage though).

So, for the most part I think it's pretty fruitless to try and buy only vegan-produced vegetables. That ****'ll send you down to crazy town.

However I do think everyone should garden if they can, for many many reasons, and I hope that the gardening trend continues and it becomes as obvious to most people as it is to me. Gardens are great!
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#48 Old 02-04-2012, 10:09 AM
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Not easily, no. But it's a safe assumption that most vegetables use manure, bloodmeal, bonemeal, feather meal, fish emulsion...

Soilman is focusing on hydroponic veg, which I've rarely seen in organics, recently I saw some hydroponic eggplant. I thought it wasn't possible to grow organic hydroponic veg, but maybe it's because of the aquaponics system that they can do that.

Watercress is always hydroponic because watercress grows in water. We've never been able to carry it organically in my store and I assumed it was because it used chemical fertilizer (which is true with most hydroponics), so I don't know how realistic it is to assume that it was grown with fish waste, could be chemical (which is... better? ).

Even if you avoid hydroponics there is almost no chance that the veg you buy is grown veganically unless it is from a specifically vegan farm (rare to they extreme, there are certainly none that sell to my store). Small local growers are just as likely to use blood/bone/fish/feather meal, and as a gardener I can tell you it's extremely difficult to buy vegan fertilizers and compost, much of it is animal derived (we manage though).

So, for the most part I think it's pretty fruitless to try and buy only vegan-produced vegetables. That ****'ll send you down to crazy town.

However I do think everyone should garden if they can, for many many reasons, and I hope that the gardening trend continues and it becomes as obvious to most people as it is to me. Gardens are great!

+1 - No need to make eating or grocery shopping into a crazy maker. I think it's fair to make vegans aware that this is a process that exists though so that they can continue to make decisions that they feel the best about.

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#49 Old 02-04-2012, 10:56 AM
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as a gardener I can tell you it's extremely difficult to buy vegan fertilizers and compost, much of it is animal derived (we manage though).

There is no need to buy any of these thing. First of all, the word fertilizer is a misnomer, and very misleading. Plants need 2 things, just like us, nutrients, and things that help them absorb nutrients. That is all they need.

Nutrients can be provided by composting collected plant matter, such as tree leaves, seaweed, and plants discarded by others, such as grass clippings (although these have often been fed with haber process nitrogen, at least you are reusing the N, rather than buying more Haber process N) by growing plants that grow easily on your soil without adding nutrients to the soil, and composting them or turning them into the soil, by growing plants that assist in fixing aerial nitrogen and composting them, or turning them in. Water is a nutrient needed by plants, as is carbon dioxide, and oxygen. The last 2 are so common you don't have to worry about helping plants get access to them. Tilth is what helps plants absorb nutrients. This is created by the same processes you use to supply nutrients.

Composted materials are divided into 2 types, "green" and "brown." Green means cut down while living and growing and therefore still green. Brown means old woody or fibrous growth, that is non-living when composted. Green is a better source of nitrogen; brown is quite good for tilth.

This is about all you need. Of course you need compost in HUGE amounts. Many people don't realize how much is needed, to provide a good yield. Without using haber process n, you can realize about 2/3 to 3/4 of the yield, as plants grown with modern methods using haber process n. You help maximize the yield by choosing cultivars that are better adapted to organic growing methods.

For example before the invention of haber process N around 1917, Japanese rice farmers learned to maximize rice yield, using only "organic" methods. They did NOT use animal waste. They flooded their fields and allowed azolla ferns, a nitrogen fixing plant, that grows in flooded fields, to grow there. This greatly increased nitrogen, allowing them to yield 2/3 to 3/4 of what they get today by doing this, but adding haber process N in addition.

In riverside farming, silt from the overflowing river, which was rich in organic matter from plants, and fish, that died naturally, enabled farms along the river bank to have a high yield, when the water receded. that is one reason that human populations grew up along river banks.

Nitrogen was the "bottleneck" that, because it is the hardest to come by (before haber process N), traditionally limited yield. In organic gardening, it remains the bottleneck.

Today, tree leaves help supply micronutrients to surface growing plants, and we use this in vegan gardening. Their deep roots pick up nutrients (mostly minerals in trace amounts). when the leaves decompose on the surface, the surface gets the nutrients. These micronutrients are needed for flavor. Not a lot of knowledge about micronutrients is readily available. Some of it is "trade secrets" held by growers. You have to be working for an agribusiness for a number of years, in an executive position, before you are told the secrets. Other times, they leak out.

For example few gardening books mention that turnips and beets grow bigger, and taste better, if they have slightly more boron than than normally recognized amount that soil is thought to need. I managed to hear this from someone, and my experments show it works.

Gardening, in my mind, is not a matter of buying things, but of collecting things that people throw out, and feeding it to my plants, as well as by growing cover crops and green manures. The seeds for this can be collected from the year before, so you only have to buy them once. You can buy a small amount of seeds, and after one year, have a huge amount. Trees are everywhere in suburbia, and in areas other than desert areas. Their leaves are all you need for tilth. Seaweed supplies all the micronutrients you need. I admit you will find some mullusks attached to the seaweed leaves. And the soil itself is 40 percent animal matter. The hardest thing to acquire is nitrogen. But there are ways to get it from the air, into a form that plants can use, without resorting to the haber process - which makes ammonia, NH4, from aerial nitrogen and natural gas or other fossil fuels, under high pressure, in a factory. Plants can eat ammonia, get their N from ammonia, or from nitrates that can can be made from ammonia. This is not "organic" but it is vegan. Plant food of this sort is very very cheap. You can feed a large backyard garden, with haber process ammoniacal and nitrate nitrogen, for less than $5 per year.

You can fine-tune tilth by attention to what kind of green manures and cover crops you grow. This helps plants absorb nutrients, and reduces the amount you have to supply.

If you aren't near enough to the ocean or bay to collect seaweed with a full micronutrient profile, you will have to rely on leaves from deep rooted trees, in larger amounts, and you may have to learn about which tree leaves, in which areas, have more of which micronutrients. Since I lived near the bay, I simply collected sea weed that washed up on shore. Seaweed also helps with macronutrients, and tilth. You can't use too much of it due to its high sodium chloride content, but you don't need much. With higher concentration of seaweed, the first year, you can grow plants in it that are more salt-tolerant, turn them in, and then after a year or 2, grow any plants. Some seaweeds also contain "plant hormones" that stimulate growth.
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#50 Old 02-04-2012, 11:02 AM
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The important thing to remember is that we're trying to do our best in this world. We're not the ones supporting McDonalds and other fast food chains with our purchases, we have no business in the meat industry, we're generally good people who are not afforded the time and resources to grow every fruit consumed -- we're stuck in a system; a system that will change either by our good intentions or crushed by its own insustainability.

Some vegans do support fast food chains if they serve vegan food to try to show that there is a market for that type of food.
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#51 Old 02-04-2012, 01:47 PM
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kazyqueen

There is no need to buy any of these thing. First of all, the word fertilizer is a misnomer, and very misleading. Plants need 2 things, just like us, nutrients, and things that help them absorb nutrients. That is all they need.

I agree, but my point was not that you need to buy them, but that if you want to buy them they are very difficult to find. Composting, leaf mould, green manures all take quite a bit of time (like a full season often) and especially for the first year, it's nice to buy amendments so you can just get started. It's foolish to assume that no one will buy soil amendments, so I don't know what exactly is your point, that everyone should garden like you?

Also, your extremely long post had very little to do with what I said and you replied to exactly one of my points when I made an awful lot more points than that.
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#52 Old 02-04-2012, 01:49 PM
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kazyqueen

Also if you are unsure of how to spell my username it would be totally fine with me if you just didn't write it out. I can tell you are talking to me because you quoted me. I don't get all up in anybody's grill for their spelling and grammar, but I think taking the time to spell someone's name, even a username, correctly is simple respect.
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#53 Old 02-04-2012, 02:11 PM
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I am not concerned here about defining who is vegan, or who we should label, or not label, as being vegan. I'm content to call anyone who avoids animal products in their food, a vegan, even if some of the ingredients at the end of the ingredient list, used in small amounts, may be non-vegan. What I am concerned about is what can we do so that animals are not harmed, so that they suffer less, at the hands of humans. If eating plant food grown a certain way, is going to cause substantially more suffering than eating plant food grown another way, then it makes sense to make an effort to choose plants grown the better way.

Try to quantify - in terms of a reduction in animal suffering - each action you take. Then focus on the actions that save the most animals.
This is a different equation than merely comparing veggies grown one way to veggies grown another way. Do you see how that's different? If so, then that is why I suggest that there's not much point in worrying about how veggies are grown.
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#54 Old 02-04-2012, 02:33 PM
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Try to quantify - in terms of a reduction in animal suffering - each action you take. Then focus on the actions that save the most animals. This is a different equation than merely comparing veggies grown one way to veggies grown another way. Do you see how that's different? If so, then that is why I suggest that there's not much point in worrying about how veggies are grown.

Did you see the number of fish in each barrel?

Overall, I agree. I can't control what is used in the production of many of the veggies that I don't grow myself, however, we also aren't talking about a small number. If this is a practice that is growing in popularity, then why not try to avoid it (thus not providing our revenue) prior to it really becoming the new age of the factory farm?

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#55 Old 02-04-2012, 03:08 PM
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Try to quantify - in terms of a reduction in animal suffering - each action you take. Then focus on the actions that save the most animals.
This is a different equation than merely comparing veggies grown one way to veggies grown another way. Do you see how that's different? If so, then that is why I suggest that there's not much point in worrying about how veggies are grown.

It is easy to quantify the difference in the amount of animal suffering that would result from 2 different ways of growing a vegetable. What other actions are you talking about? You don't mention any. There is nothing for me to compare, and quantify. Certainly, quantifying and predicting people's response to communications, is much less reliable than quantifying and predicting the environment's reactions to different gardening methods.
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#56 Old 02-04-2012, 09:06 PM
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Seaweed supplies all the micronutrients you need. I admit you will find some mullusks attached to the seaweed leaves. And the soil itself is 40 percent animal matter.

So..... It isn't vegan to garden using animal manure as fertilizer, but it is vegan to use seaweed that still has mollusks attached?

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#57 Old 02-04-2012, 09:11 PM
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So..... It isn't vegan to garden using animal manure as fertilizer, but it is vegan to use seaweed that still has mollusks attached?


I know right? I thought this was all about purity here, and get off our lazy asses, and effin' grow up and whatnot?

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#58 Old 02-04-2012, 09:25 PM
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I know right? I thought this was all about purity here, and get off our lazy asses, and effin' grow up and whatnot?

Seriously.
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#59 Old 02-04-2012, 09:31 PM
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Seriously.

Not to mention, I'm not sure what a mullusk is. Is it like a mollusk?

((sorry couldn't resist))

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#60 Old 02-04-2012, 09:37 PM
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Not to mention, I'm not sure what a mullusk is. Is it like a mollusk?

((sorry couldn't resist))



Maybe it's a plant? Shaped like a mollusk?
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