"Being Fat Is Now Illegal in Japan" - Page 2 - VeggieBoards
Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
#31 Old 12-03-2011, 06:49 PM
Joe
Veggie Regular
 
Joe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 5,660
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mamacat View Post

I don't think you are cruel or judgmental at all - I never denied I'm seriously obese. Just saying lots of folks are fatter than me (and we all need to do something about ourselves). I'm sure if I hadn't 'been on a diet' all these years I'd weight much more - most people on both sides of my family are 300 pounds or more at my height and age (in fact they call me a 'stick insect' and think I'm unhealthily skinny!)

Well, you said you've been dieting for 20 years and gained 50 pounds over that period.

Can you give me some insight as to why you think that occurred?

That may sound like a stupid question, but I really don't know, which is why I'm asking.

I need to lose weight myself, but have never tried dieting. So I am curious.
Joe is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
#32 Old 12-04-2011, 06:32 AM
Veggie Regular
 
Mufflon's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 656
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe View Post

Can you give me some insight as to why you think that occurred?

Diets don't work.

Quote:
I need to lose weight myself, but have never tried dieting. So I am curious.

Whatever you do: don't diet.
Mufflon is offline  
#33 Old 12-04-2011, 07:29 AM
Joe
Veggie Regular
 
Joe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 5,660
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mufflon View Post

Diets don't work.

Yes, but why don't they work?
Joe is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
#34 Old 12-04-2011, 08:27 AM
Veggie Regular
 
Mufflon's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 656
Mufflon is offline  
#35 Old 12-04-2011, 09:46 AM
Veggie Regular
 
Envy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Heaven
Posts: 6,548
Diets work.

If you do them right.

"Hell exists not to punish sinners, but to ensure that nobody sins in the first place."
Envy is offline  
#36 Old 12-04-2011, 09:47 AM
Veggie Regular
 
Envy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Heaven
Posts: 6,548
Of course, one would also have to adopt a healthy living afterwards as well.

"Hell exists not to punish sinners, but to ensure that nobody sins in the first place."
Envy is offline  
#37 Old 12-04-2011, 09:52 AM
Joe
Veggie Regular
 
Joe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 5,660
Quote:

Thank you.

I found this article interesting.

4 Reasons Why Diets Dont Work

http://news.softpedia.com/news/4-Rea...k-135512.shtml


Quote:
The first problem with diets, no matter how famous or seemingly documented they appear, is that theyre made to work in the short run. That is to say, theyre not created thinking of what will happen with the weight lost in a years time but rather to help you shake off a few pounds over a very short period of time, from two weeks to a month usually. Many (chronic) dieters know from experience of the yo-yo effect, which kicks in the moment they come off a diet because the diet does not imply a lifestyle change. Therefore, once it ends, the dieter reverts back to their old eating habits.


Secondly comes the fact that diets make you hungry, no matter how much they boast of letting you eat whatever you want, whenever you want it (some even include sweet treats).

...

From this also derives problem number three, namely that diets tend to make you tired. A chronic problem with diets is that so many of them are simply too low in calories."

...

Last but not least, diets cannibalize muscle mass.

...

So, next time you think about starting on a diet come next Monday (its always Mondays), think about making small changes to your lifestyle instead of turning your entire existence upside down for only a couple of weeks. Cut down on junk food and start exercising more and youll see results will last longer, though they may also become noticeable a bit later.

Joe is offline  
#38 Old 12-04-2011, 10:00 AM
Veggie Regular
 
Envy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Heaven
Posts: 6,548
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe View Post

Thank you.

I found this article interesting.

4 Reasons Why Diets Don’t Work

http://news.softpedia.com/news/4-Rea...k-135512.shtml

/facepalm

"Hell exists not to punish sinners, but to ensure that nobody sins in the first place."
Envy is offline  
#39 Old 12-04-2011, 10:44 AM
Veggie Regular
 
nomad888's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Quebec and Vermont
Posts: 1,693
I think it would be more accurate to say that the success of dieting varies from person to person, and that there are indeed genetic and other factors involved. But to give you an example of how diets DO work, let me explain, very briefly, how bodybuilding tends to work (I am not a body builder, but it is still interesting how it's done nonetheless).

First, keep in mind a couple of principles. Regardless of what type of training one is doing, it is extremely difficult to gain muscle mass while on a low calorie diet. For this reason, when consuming a caloric surplus for the purpose of muscle gain, it is also nearly impossible to not gain some fat in the process. To balance this, bodybuilders go through phases.

During the bulking phase, they eat a lot. This is when they gain most of their muscle mass and make the most significant strength gains. Inevitably they will start to accumulate a bit of excess fat, at which point they move into the cutting phase (i.e. dieting). During this phase fat is lost, and though they still work out to avoid losing too much muscle mass, muscle gain is virtually non existent and strength improvements are minimal.

Though not a bodybuilder myself, as a fitness junkie I tend to have a lot of friends who are, and I see them diet, successfully, on a regular bases.

As for the reasons why it is less effective in some people than others, this is debatable. I used to scoff at the idea that genetics had anything to do with it. I lived in Japan for several years and can count on one hand the number of obese people I saw (not counting sumo wrestlers, who do it intentionally). Knowing how similar genetics are within differing cultures, it always seemed obvious to me that it had more to do with the cultures themselves, not genetics.

Endocrinology, however, has some interesting things to say about this, and is considerably less debated than nutrition science. Fat storage is a hormonal response, and those hormones work differently from person to person, and also different in females than males. The production of testosterone and estrogen, for example, inhibits excessive weight gain simply by causing resources to be used for the development of muscle and other tissue that might otherwise be stored as fat. Insulin, on the other hand, tends to trigger fat storage (it is from this science that low carb diets were concocted. Control the fat by limiting the insulin response).

The amount of fat different people store even if eating the same things can indeed differ drastically. The fact that fat cells in obese children will actually divide, not just get bigger, further complicates future efforts at losing weight. Think of extra fat cells as beggars, sapping resources that could be used by muscles, organs, and other parts of the body. For someone in this position trying to cut calories at extreme levels, with so many extra fat cells hogging resources it is actually possible to be malnourished and obese at the same time. I honestly don't have an answer for this. I have seen obese people turn themselves around though, and I see bodybuilders manipulate their diet for precision fat loss and muscle gain on a regular basis, so I know that it is possible.

"I'm not in this world to live up to your expectations and you're not in this world to live up to mine." Bruce Lee.

"On a large enough time line, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero." Chuck Palahniuk (Fight Club)

nomad888 is offline  
#40 Old 12-04-2011, 10:52 AM
Veggie Regular
 
Mufflon's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 656
Joe, do your research and don't underestimate the psychological, emotional and biochemical factors when it comes to weight loss. Despite that a lot of people claim to have found the road to everlasting weight loss and ideal weight and claim that "it's so easy to lose excess weight", keep in mind that there wouldn't be so many overweight and obese people.

Before jumping to conclusions in the way of "they just need more discipline and education" or "they just need to suck it up", keep in mind that there are lots of intelligent and otherwise successful people who battle their weight without much success.
Mufflon is offline  
#41 Old 12-04-2011, 10:55 AM
Veggie Regular
 
Mufflon's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 656
Quote:
Originally Posted by nomad888 View Post

Though not a bodybuilder myself, as a fitness junkie I tend to have a lot of friends who are, and I see them diet, successfully, on a regular bases.

"On a regular basis" seems to be the keyword when it comes to bodybuilding. They diet their way down but aren't able to maintain the routine in the long run.

While I'm not doing the bulking/cutting cycle I hear a lot of bodybuilders moan about their cutting diets.
Mufflon is offline  
#42 Old 12-04-2011, 10:57 AM
Veggie Regular
 
Envy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Heaven
Posts: 6,548
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mufflon View Post

"On a regular basis" seems to be the keyword when it comes to bodybuilding. They diet their way down but aren't able to maintain the routine in the long run.

While I'm not doing the bulking/cutting cycle I hear a lot of bodybuilders moan about their cutting diets.

Errr, no.

They don't have to maintain a cutting routine in the long run because it's specifically for removing fat and once they've done it, they no longer "cut".

"Hell exists not to punish sinners, but to ensure that nobody sins in the first place."
Envy is offline  
#43 Old 12-04-2011, 11:00 AM
Veggie Regular
 
Mufflon's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 656
Quote:
Originally Posted by Envy View Post

Diets work.

If you do them right.

They don't work. And there is lots of evidence to prove it, even when it comes to the "right" (hahaha) way. You can facepalm for as long as it takes to you knock your brain through the back of your head: Diets don't work - except for the measly 2% of people who are lucky enough that they actually do work. However, a therapy that works only in 2% of all patients wouldn't be exactly a therapy I'd call something "that works".
Mufflon is offline  
#44 Old 12-04-2011, 11:01 AM
Veggie Regular
 
Mufflon's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 656
Quote:
Originally Posted by Envy View Post

Errr, no.

They don't have to maintain a cutting routine in the long run because it's specifically for removing fat and once they've done it, they no longer "cut".

Yes, and they gain back FAT when going off their diets. Something an obese person really needs, right... DUH!
Mufflon is offline  
#45 Old 12-04-2011, 11:08 AM
Veggie Regular
 
Envy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Heaven
Posts: 6,548
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mufflon View Post

Yes, and they gain back FAT when going off their diets. Something an obese person really needs, right... DUH!

Because they intentionally consume more calories than they need in order to maximize muscle growth.

Or as nomad said, a "bulk".

"Hell exists not to punish sinners, but to ensure that nobody sins in the first place."
Envy is offline  
#46 Old 12-04-2011, 11:10 AM
Veggie Regular
 
Envy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Heaven
Posts: 6,548
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mufflon View Post

They don't work. And there is lots of evidence to prove it, even when it comes to the "right" (hahaha) way. You can facepalm for as long as it takes to you knock your brain through the back of your head: Diets don't work - except for the measly 2% of people who are lucky enough that they actually do work. However, a therapy that works only in 2% of all patients wouldn't be exactly a therapy I'd call something "that works".

2%?

It's much more people than that who succeed with their diets.

Hell, based on all the fitness sites alone I could probably raise a greater number than that.

"Hell exists not to punish sinners, but to ensure that nobody sins in the first place."
Envy is offline  
#47 Old 12-04-2011, 11:45 AM
Veggie Regular
 
kazyeeqen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 2,595
I don't know what people mean by 'diet' here. Reducing caloric intake? Cause as I understand it that's one of things folks do when they lose weight. Probably all people who have ever lost weight have reduced caloric intake to achieve that. The only other thing to do is burn more calories that you consume. Is changing eating habits to lose weight called something else besides 'dieting'?

I hate the word, personally, so I don't mind if that's the case.
kazyeeqen is offline  
#48 Old 12-04-2011, 02:06 PM
Veggie Regular
 
nomad888's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Quebec and Vermont
Posts: 1,693
Quote:
Originally Posted by kazyeeqen View Post

I don't know what people mean by 'diet' here. Reducing caloric intake? Cause as I understand it that's one of things folks do when they lose weight. Probably all people who have ever lost weight have reduced caloric intake to achieve that. The only other thing to do is burn more calories that you consume. Is changing eating habits to lose weight called something else besides 'dieting'?

I hate the word, personally, so I don't mind if that's the case.

That's actually an important part of the debate. The word diet is extremely vague. It can mean a temporary and even extreme reduction in calories, or a permanent change in eating habits, low fat diets, high fat and/or high protein ketogenic diets... All work with varying degrees of success or failure, and often have different results for different people. There are those who will restrict calories and lose weight like magic, and there are those who have struggled with it their whole lives. It's hard to pinpoint exactly where the problem lies because we can't exactly take people, stick them in a lab, and control what they eat and how they exercise for years on end.

I've mentioned on health related threads before that when I was in boot camp, those of us who were above weight standards were essentially put on a ~30 second per meal diet where we basically went through the line, got whatever food we wanted, and then had to carry it immediately to the garbage and throw it away. We were allowed to eat as much as we could between the line and the garbage. Going into the military, I was a chubby kid just as I was throughout high school. But in two short months of forced dietary changes and increased physical exertion, I transformed and, today, nearly 15 years later, the changes have not only held, but I have gone from just barely passing my fitness tests to being a complete fitness junkie. I know of many examples of people who have succeed in making even more remarkable changes, and I know of many examples of people for whom the changes were not permanent or simply didn't work at all for reasons I can't pinpoint due to the above mentioned difficulty in monitoring the daily habits of people who are not lab rats.

For me, diet has the following meaning:
Consuming less during specified portions of a long term fitness plan based on the principles of periodicity.
Eating a healthy diet at all times, which includes plenty of unrefined carbohydrates, plenty of healthy fats (which by my definition includes saturated i.e. coconut but not trans fats), and plenty of proteins. I severely limit my intake of added sweeteners and sweets in general.

For me, it works. For most of the people who have asked me for advice and followed it, it has also worked. For those who choose to believe that watching what you eat as a means of staying healthy is farce, maybe you're right and any success I think I've seen has been coincidental. Either way, I'm gonna keep doing what I'm doing and also advising others to do the same because, so far as I can tell, it works. I also simply don't like the idea that anything is completely out of my control. If logic shows that something is 99% out of my control and 1% controllable, I'm gonna focus on the 1% and intentionally ignore the rest because it simply doesn't benefit me.

In regards to the thread... I don't think legally regulating weight is going to be overly effective, at least not in adults, for a few reasons. Like I mentioned before, once someone is already obese there is reason to believe that the division of fat cells makes it increasingly difficult to later lose weight. It is much, much more difficult (though not impossible) to lose large amounts of weight once this change has occurred than it is to maintain a healthy weight from the beginning. For adults, I think incentives would be more effective (and more fair) than penalties. But I think the bulk of the attention should be paid towards insuring that people never reach that point to begin with. That said, I am also big on freedom of choice. I'm a fitness nut because I enjoy it. If someone is not personally bothered by being overweight, that's on them and they have that right.

I think it would make more sense to encourage healthy habits through media. Smoking rates have been drastically reduced over the last couple decades in this manner.

"I'm not in this world to live up to your expectations and you're not in this world to live up to mine." Bruce Lee.

"On a large enough time line, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero." Chuck Palahniuk (Fight Club)

nomad888 is offline  
#49 Old 12-04-2011, 03:10 PM
Newbie
 
Mamacat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe View Post

Well, you said you've been dieting for 20 years and gained 50 pounds over that period.

Can you give me some insight as to why you think that occurred?

That may sound like a stupid question, but I really don't know, which is why I'm asking.

I need to lose weight myself, but have never tried dieting. So I am curious.

By 'dieting' I mean consistently eating less than I want (feeling hungry all the time), eating very much less than anyone else eats (I gain weight on 1,000 calories a day, even though experts say you should never go under 1,200), trying a variety of different plans (everything from Atkins to Vegan over the years) and never losing more than 3 or 4 pounds and then gaining back even more when I go off the plan. Keep in mind 50 pounds over 20 years is only about 2.5 pounds a year, or 11,500 more calories in a full year than you burn off (like 35 calories too much per day! which is like a handful of baby carrots). I do think I have a genetic problem though, given that everyone on both sides of my family is morbidly obese, and that all my (non-obese) friends tell me they would starve to death on what I eat.
Mamacat is offline  
#50 Old 12-14-2011, 12:03 PM
Joe
Veggie Regular
 
Joe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 5,660
I managed to lose track of this thread.

But I wanted to ask a question or questions. And I know this may sound stupid, but here goes.

What part does weighing yourself play in dieting? I almost never weigh myself, much less try to keep track of my weight. So, those of you who diet, how often do you weigh yourself? Do you keep written records of your weight?

I had an old, step-on scale with which I used to weigh myself. It had some sort of spring mechanism inside, but I think it must have broken or something and was giving me false readings, i.e., as if I weighed less than i really did.

If weighing yourself is so important, do you buy a second scale to check your weight against the first scale? Or do you go to an outside scale--like the coin-operated ones in some department stores--to check your weight periodically?
Joe is offline  
#51 Old 12-14-2011, 07:21 PM
Banned
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 1,013
Big in Japan is such a great song. Is it illegal now?
paperhanger is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the VeggieBoards forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
If you do not want to register, fill this field only and the name will be used as user name for your post.
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in


Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off