Let's hear from the male members of VB - Page 2 - VeggieBoards
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#31 Old 11-21-2011, 11:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Sevenseas View Post

The only reasons I can see for someone opting out at such a late date would be:
1) the couple hasn't discussed the very fundamental issue of financial support at all, and bring it up near the end of pregnancy for the first time, which is when the man reveals he doesn't want to support the kid
2) the man first says he's willing to support the kid, but then at the last moment backs down

The latter situation seems more plausible but could be settled by requiring the man to sign a form volunteering financial support, which contract he couldn't back down from later. Also, wouldn't a man changing his mind like that be as likely as a woman changing her mind about a kid that late in the pregnancy? And you state yourself that those kind of abortions are rare.

Incentive for man not to opt out: desire to live with the mother in an emotionally healthy, normal, loving family situation. If the father wants to hang out with the kid but has no interest in supporting the child-raising in any financial way, that will most likely cause a lot of psychological problems in his relationship with the mother. If the father is emotionally attached to the mother, he will see financial support of child-raising as natural and not something which to opt out of. Just like, if there's no child in the picture, many couples support each other financially even without the government forcing them to.


Yeah, and for the people youre describing, financially supporting one's child, whether one *wanted* the child or not, is not the burning issue that CG and others make it out to be.
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#32 Old 11-21-2011, 11:33 AM
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I'll pass on the capacity to get preggers.

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#33 Old 11-21-2011, 11:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Clueless Git View Post

More complicated than simply allowing both parents an opt out within the legal time frame for abortion.

Otherwise that is actualy very fair and equitable.

Are you one of the candidates for the Republican nomination for President here in the U.S.? I ask because you have much the same fine grasp of workable, pragmatic solutions to problems that they do.
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#34 Old 11-21-2011, 11:44 AM
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I think people have unprotected sex because they don't think of the consequences, no matter what they are, or because they don't like how condoms feel, or because of the side effects of much of women's birth control, or because they simply don't believe *just this once* will make a difference, or they are too *romantic* to think ahead, or because it makes them feel potent to think they may be impregnating someone/getting pregnant, or because they just don't give a flying f***.

You don't list the potential for supporting a child.

Does it have a factor on a person's decision to use birth control if they can give up responsibility for raising a child?
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#35 Old 11-21-2011, 11:52 AM
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You don't list the potential for supporting a child.

Does it have a factor on a person's decision to use birth control if they can give up responsibility for raising a child?

It may for some people - I can't really say, since I don't have mind reading abilities. Finances seem not to be on the forefront of most people's minds when engaged in sex. I would think it would primarily be on the minds of those people who are already actively worried about feeding, clothing and housing their current children, since where sex is involved, people tend to concentrate on maximizing their immediate pleasure, rather than on longer term consequences. Pleasure seems to take a back seat to financial or health concerns only to the extent one is already actively worried about such matters.
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#36 Old 11-21-2011, 01:01 PM
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Well, you're making the rather simplistic assumption that the decision whether or not to have an abortion is simply a financial one and that nonfinancial factors have no bearing on whether someone is willing/emotionally able to have an abortion.

That's so patently not the case (financial issues had absolutely nothing to do with my decision or the decision of any woman I know) that it's impossible for me to even address the assumption.

Just as you made the rather simplistic assumption that the decision whether or not to be involved in a child's life is simply a financial one and that non-financial factors have no bearing on whether a man is willing/emotionally able to have a child in his life.

That's so patently not the case.

See how that works?

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#37 Old 11-21-2011, 01:10 PM
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Just as you made the rather simplistic assumption that the decision whether or not to be involved in a child's life is simply a financial one and that non-financial factors have no bearing on whether a man is willing/emotionally able to have a child in his life.

That's so patently not the case.

See how that works?

Well, there's a bit of a difference there - that was in response to the now rather oft repeated argument that it's inherently unfair to saddle an unwilling man with child support for a child he doesn't want. The proponents of that argument are the ones who are focusing on parenthood being all about finances, which I find both fascinating and terribly sad.
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#38 Old 11-21-2011, 01:15 PM
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Personally I'd rather see the biological father get saddled with child support than the taxpayers getting stuck for welfare.
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#39 Old 11-21-2011, 01:18 PM
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Originally Posted by mlp View Post

Are you one of the candidates for the Republican nomination for President here in the U.S.? I ask because you have much the same fine grasp of workable, pragmatic solutions to problems that they do.

Something does not have to be workable or pragmatic to be equitable and fair.

I did politely point out that your idea was complicated compared to the simpler fair and equitable system to which you seem to be opposed.
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#40 Old 11-21-2011, 01:26 PM
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They're what results when Sperm A fertilizes Egg B, the fertilized egg manages to attach successfully to the uterine wall and stay there for the duration, no spontaneous or elective abortion occurs the fetus survives until delivery and manages to be born alive

So abortion does = no child, just as I said?

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.. and survive for some length of time after birth.

Hmmm ...

For how long after birth is a child not a child but still a fetus then?
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#41 Old 11-21-2011, 01:26 PM
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Originally Posted by mlp View Post

Well, there's a bit of a difference there - that was in response to the now rather oft repeated argument that it's inherently unfair to saddle an unwilling man with child support for a child he doesn't want. The proponents of that argument are the ones who are focusing on parenthood being all about finances, which I find both fascinating and terribly sad.

You'll please forgive me if I'm wrong but I don't recall anyone but you bringing child support (i.e., "a man's financial interests") into the conversation until after you did. Again, I say I can be completely mistaken, but I don't think I recall reading herein this thread anyone whose argument rested on child support.

Several posters had only spoke of the equity of choice, parenthood, and fatherhood (words that, to my mind, do not immediately associate with finances even despite the context of this conversation) and you, in turn, specifically associated our comments with "a man's financial interests". I think you would be hard-pressed to find anyone in this thread who was solely or particularly concerned about child support. While it is certainly a factor to consider when weighing the equity of choice, it is of the least of the concerns.

It's also important to note that you were quite quick to make that association (first page, even) and you spoke of it as if it were the most important consideration a man would or could have in this situation, if not as if it were the only consideration.

Hypothetically speaking (in fact, extremely so), were I ever to get a woman pregnant and she chose to have the child despite my utter lack of a desire to have children, I could never in good conscience be either a "dead-beat dad" who doesn't pay child support nor a father who only paid child support. Because of who I am, I would not only be required to support the child but be a full-time, 100% best father I could be after the fact. I'm also quite sure that I would enjoy doing so as well. However, it does not change the fact that there was a severe lack of equity in the choice regarding the circumstances through which the child was brought into the world.

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#42 Old 11-21-2011, 01:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Clueless Git View Post

Something does not have to be workable or pragmatic to be equitable and fair.

I did politely point out that your idea was complicated compared to the simpler fair and equitable system to which you seem to be opposed.

I'm opposed to your system because it harms children, and not only those children whose fathers don't want to be financially responsible for them, but all those other children who are already dependent on all too thinly stretched public resources.

What it comes down to is that your primary concern is the financial burden on men who don't want the burden of child support, while my primary concern is for the welfare of actual children.
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#43 Old 11-21-2011, 01:31 PM
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You'll please forgive me if I'm wrong but I don't recall anyone but you bringing child support (i.e., "a man's financial interests") into the conversation until after you did. Again, I say I can be completely mistaken, but I don't think I recall reading herein this thread anyone whose argument rested on child support.

Several posters had only spoke of the equity of choice and you, in turn, specifically associated our comments with "a man's financial interests". I think you would be hard-pressed to find anyone in this thread who was solely or particularly concerned about child support. While it is certainly a factor to consider when weighing the equity of choice, it is of the least of the concerns.

It's also important to note that you were quite quick to make that association (first page, even) and you spoke of it as if it were the most important consideration a man would or could have in this situation, if not as if it were the only consideration.

Hypothetically speaking (in fact, extremely so), were I ever to get a woman pregnant and she chose to have the child despite my utter lack of a desire to have children, I could never in good conscience be either a "dead-beat dad" who doesn't pay child support nor a father who only paid child support. Because of who I am, I would not only be required to support the child but be a full-time, 100% best father I could be after the fact. I'm also quite sure that I would enjoy doing so as well. However, it does not change the fact that there was a severe lack of equity in the choice regarding the circumstances through which the child was brought into the world.


And I respect that you would do that.

This thread is an off shoot of the abortion thread, in which certain posters (CG and Das are the ones who are active in this thread to this point) decried the unfairness of saddling men with child support for children they don't want, while women have the option to have an abortion.
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#44 Old 11-21-2011, 02:43 PM
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Personally I'd rather see the biological father get saddled with child support than the taxpayers getting stuck for welfare.

Me too but then I'm not a man so I probably shouldn't give my opinion here.
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#45 Old 11-21-2011, 02:49 PM
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The proponents of that argument are the ones who are focusing on parenthood being all about finances, which I find both fascinating and terribly sad.

Wouldn't that depend on how you interpret the focus on finances?

It could be that finances are being brought up because men only view children as a financial drain.

Or it could be that finances are being brought up because men love their offspring, but are so loving that they'd rather see a child be adopted than force that child to grow up in an unstable, poor home.
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#46 Old 11-21-2011, 04:45 PM
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It is this statement which has made me realize that you have absolutely no interest in actually having a discussion but probably just want a soapbox. The fact that you believe, regardless of circumstance or individual, that men are, by nature, more apt to relinquish their rights as fathers carelessly and gleefully indicates that there can be no real discussion of value with you on the topic.

I agree. As soon as i saw the tone of her first post in the thread i knew she was not worth discussing this topic with.
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#47 Old 11-21-2011, 08:13 PM
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The first postsecret entry this week is oddly relevant.
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#48 Old 11-21-2011, 08:19 PM
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The first postsecret entry this week is oddly relevant.

Wow. That's a really ****ty thing to do

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#49 Old 11-21-2011, 08:23 PM
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That still leaves almost an entire lifetime of reproduction-related unfairness hanging on women (see the list in my opening post). How are you going to remedy that? I got my first period at age 11, my mother lived to age 89 and my grandmother to age 94. Splitting the difference, I'm going to have about 80 years of unfairness that needs to be remedied. I'm post menopausal, and I have just had my second broken wrist/arm in 2 1/2 years(this time, three broken bones and three dislocations, requiring surgery, a permanent metal plate and six screws - I haven't gotten all the bills yet, but the simple fracture I had 2 1/2 years ago, which require a simple cast, cost me more than $3,000).

Simple fairness requires that I, and all other women, be compensated. After all, we're forced to deal with all of this, whether or not we ever wanted children. It's just not fair!

Different people are born with different bodies, there is no way to "remedy" it. Women should have the right to decide when it comes to abortion, because it's their body. Not because they had to deal with having a period or osteoperosis. Should Michael J Fox have gotten to decide whether his wife would abort or not because it was unfair that he had to go through Parkinson's?

ETA: Sorry for addressing you while you can't respond. I didn't notice at first.
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#50 Old 11-21-2011, 08:25 PM
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Wow. That's a really ****ty thing to do

I hope he finds out before she becomes pregnant.
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#51 Old 11-21-2011, 08:27 PM
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I hope he finds out before she becomes pregnant.

So do I. What would you do? How could you trust someone and raise a child with them after they pull something like that?

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#52 Old 11-21-2011, 08:34 PM
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The first postsecret entry this week is oddly relevant.

I don't think that's too uncommon. I've known some sneaky women.
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#53 Old 11-21-2011, 08:35 PM
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I don't think that's too uncommon. I've known some sneaky women.

That is really sick. The decision to start a family should be made together.

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#54 Old 11-21-2011, 08:40 PM
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The mother of my best friend from childhood used to brag about how she sabotaged birth control so her man wouldn't leave. Said friend when we were in our 20s also oopsed her guy thinking it would make him stay when he was interested in someone else.
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#55 Old 11-21-2011, 08:42 PM
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That's a pretty low, pathetic move IMO. I could not imagine doing that to the man I love. Bringing a baby into the world to keep your man around...sickening.

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#56 Old 11-21-2011, 09:03 PM
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I don't think it's common, but it happens. And yes, it's a pretty pathetic move.
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#57 Old 11-22-2011, 07:36 AM
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MOD POST

A bunch of posts responding to a personal attack have been removed from this thread.
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#58 Old 11-22-2011, 07:39 AM
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That'll teach me not to have a life, I miss all the goss.

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#59 Old 11-22-2011, 08:34 AM
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I have zero urge for that. And why would I????

I was there for our 2 kiddos births. My daughter's labor was 45 hours and it exhausted me coaching her through it. No friggin' way.

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#60 Old 11-22-2011, 08:37 AM
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So do I. What would you do? How could you trust someone and raise a child with them after they pull something like that?

yeah, the bigger picture here. and that being an unhealthy family life and THAT would be detrimental for the child, probably more so than having parents living separate lives. If a woman pulled that with me, her butt would be out my door so fast that her hair would have the wind blown look.

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