The God Debate (split from Poll: God's Approval Rating) - Page 11 - VeggieBoards
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#301 Old 09-10-2011, 03:31 PM
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Originally Posted by nogardsram View Post

Couldn't you debate what one person means when they state 'god' or 'God' or deity rather than a universal definition?

I think in all cases ('god' or 'God' or deity,) you're debating a hypothetical. Can one really debate hypothesis?

"There is more wisdom in the song of a bird, than in the speech of a philosopher...." -Oahspe
"The thing is, you cannot judge a race. Any man who judges by the group is a pea-wit. You take men one at a time." -Buster Kilrain, The Killer Angels -Michael Shaara
"Anyone who doesn't believe in miracles isn't a realist." -Billy Wilder
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#302 Old 09-10-2011, 04:06 PM
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I want to also bring up just because I believe in God, go by the Bible, attend church, and live a moral life upon that, it don't mean I am allowing it to control me like it used too. I have a brain, and mind and free will like the rest of us. I am an open minded Christian now and whomever lives outside my home wants to have a disbelief in God or not a Christian that is their right and their beliefs.
I value people the way they are , the peace they have and the causes they go about in every day rather Bible thumping the Bible on top of peoples heads. Don't assume that I will force my belief down peoples throats when they don't want it. I have learned the hard way for this belief over the years.
This is why I became a cause of the peaceful and veg living and applying it to my Christian walk and life.
I believe in the coexist saying and I think we all should live in harmony and respect one another, I am not bashing non believers nor other Faiths or religions its not my nature no more. But you have your own choice to believe in God or not.
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#303 Old 09-10-2011, 04:23 PM
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I believe in the coexist saying and I think we all should live in harmony and respect one another, I am not bashing non believers nor other Faiths or religions its not my nature no more. But you have your own choice to believe in God or not.

But you opened your original statement with a fairly obvious "fire and brimstone" threat...

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There is a God and the word of God is true, I would be very careful how you slam God the way you do.


Happiness is not the result of a mathematical equation comparing the good times and bad times someone has had. It is a state of mind.
-nomad888
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#304 Old 09-10-2011, 05:42 PM
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I think in all cases ('god' or 'God' or deity,) you're debating a hypothetical. Can one really debate hypothesis?

Isn't that what we do, when we debate all sorts of things? We debate the validity of a hypothesis. An atom is a hypothetical, an electron a hypothetical, quarks are hypothetical, infinite space is a hypothetical, curved space-time is a hypothetical, everything is a hypothetical, so yes, we debate hypotheses all the time.

I believe everything.
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#305 Old 09-10-2011, 05:51 PM
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Oh, you didn't just say that. Are you freakin' kidding me?

What's the last original thought you had? Have you ever had one? Have you ever thought of anything that wasn't based on an external source? That human thinking has been influenced by extra-human (I did not say extraterrestrial) sources is not an unreasonable idea. When so many of our own ideas- or what we claim to be our own- cannot be measured, recorded and stored, it's easy to understand that there's a universe of spirituality beyond, parallel to, within, without, or surrounding the physical one.

Why would I kid you about this?

"There is more wisdom in the song of a bird, than in the speech of a philosopher...." -Oahspe
"The thing is, you cannot judge a race. Any man who judges by the group is a pea-wit. You take men one at a time." -Buster Kilrain, The Killer Angels -Michael Shaara
"Anyone who doesn't believe in miracles isn't a realist." -Billy Wilder
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#306 Old 09-10-2011, 06:07 PM
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Originally Posted by nogardsram View Post

Isn't that what we do, when we debate all sorts of things? We debate the validity of a hypothesis. An atom is a hypothetical, an electron a hypothetical, quarks are hypothetical, infinite space is a hypothetical, curved space-time is a hypothetical, everything is a hypothetical, so yes, we debate hypotheses all the time.

Well, if we can debate infinite space, then I suppose we can debate God too.

"There is more wisdom in the song of a bird, than in the speech of a philosopher...." -Oahspe
"The thing is, you cannot judge a race. Any man who judges by the group is a pea-wit. You take men one at a time." -Buster Kilrain, The Killer Angels -Michael Shaara
"Anyone who doesn't believe in miracles isn't a realist." -Billy Wilder
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#307 Old 09-10-2011, 07:32 PM
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What's the last original thought you had? Have you ever had one? Have you ever thought of anything that wasn't based on an external source? That human thinking has been influenced by extra-human (I did not say extraterrestrial) sources is not an unreasonable idea. When so many of our own ideas- or what we claim to be our own- cannot be measured, recorded and stored, it's easy to understand that there's a universe of spirituality beyond, parallel to, within, without, or surrounding the physical one.

Why would I kid you about this?

Been a little while since I've looked at this thread now, and a lot of conversation's gone on since I was last here, but I believe I was opposing your claim that we humans got our morals, values, etc. from religion. As others have said, it's the other way around: we made up religions, and of course suffused them with common human values, with our beliefs about what's moral. This is why there are some differences amongst religions, but the basic, core values tend to be so similar.

I agree that all or most of our thoughts have their origins in the external. Read somewhere not that long ago that it's believed by some that without input from our senses, we'd lose our minds. We're constantly relying on external cues from our environment. Without these (like in a sensory deprivation tank), eventually psychosis sets in.

Yes, we can be skeptics about what we know, don't know, etc. To live your life, though, you need to make some basic assumptions about the world around you, about yourself, etc. You can observe what you experience with your senses and make rational, logical conclusions about all that information. This is the atheist's position: (1) one of not knowing all the answers, and (2) one of being smart about assessing the likelihood of various claims.

Direct action is always the clamorer, the initiator, through which the great sum of indifferentists become aware that oppression is getting intolerable. - Voltairine de Cleyre
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#308 Old 09-10-2011, 09:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Kimberlily1983 View Post

Been a little while since I've looked at this thread now, and a lot of conversation's gone on since I was last here, but I believe I was opposing your claim that we humans got our morals, values, etc. from religion. As others have said, it's the other way around: we made up religions, and of course suffused them with common human values, with our beliefs about what's moral. This is why there are some differences amongst religions, but the basic, core values tend to be so similar.

Everything they've asserted is based on supposition. The exact same suppositions can be made for the opposite argument. The claim that we invented our morality and infused it into our religions is no more logical than any other claim. There is no evidence about this, one way or the other.

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I agree that all or most of our thoughts have their origins in the external. Read somewhere not that long ago that it's believed by some that without input from our senses, we'd lose our minds. We're constantly relying on external cues from our environment. Without these (like in a sensory deprivation tank), eventually psychosis sets in.

If spirituality exists- and I believe it does, because so much of the human experience is of a spiritual nature (our emotions, our imaginings, our honor and morality, politics, etc.)- it follows that more than just the physical senses are required to experience it. This of course cannot be physically known, but I believe we have spiritual senses. Many religious claims are bogus, but human spirituality nevertheless is a reality. As your sources suggest about physical deprivation, a lack of spiritual input would likely too result in a similar lunacy. If we can commune with a tree, why cannot we commune with a God? If we cannot, perhaps it's because our spiritual senses are not developed enough to do so.

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Yes, we can be skeptics about what we know, don't know, etc. To live your life, though, you need to make some basic assumptions about the world around you, about yourself, etc. You can observe what you experience with your senses and make rational, logical conclusions about all that information. This is the atheist's position: (1) one of not knowing all the answers, and (2) one of being smart about assessing the likelihood of various claims.

What's odd, as a spiritual man, I feel no need to belong to a group. It is my spirituality that allows me to feel an independence from the human collection.

"There is more wisdom in the song of a bird, than in the speech of a philosopher...." -Oahspe
"The thing is, you cannot judge a race. Any man who judges by the group is a pea-wit. You take men one at a time." -Buster Kilrain, The Killer Angels -Michael Shaara
"Anyone who doesn't believe in miracles isn't a realist." -Billy Wilder
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#309 Old 09-14-2011, 06:40 PM
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Everything they've asserted is based on supposition. The exact same suppositions can be made for the opposite argument. The claim that we invented our morality and infused it into our religions is no more logical than any other claim. There is no evidence about this, one way or the other.

Some may choose to argue that we invented morality, but I never made this claim. I don't believe morality is invented. Morality is complex, to be sure, and it's not always easy to know what's right or wrong in a situation (and sometimes there is no clear right or wrong - all options might involve wrongdoing, for instance), but morality is nonetheless not a mere matter of opinion or human invention.

We can look at a situation and make objective claims about what's right or wrong to do, about what's just and fair (or unjust and unfair). Religion didn't give us that. We just simply evolved to a point where we're intelligent enough to figure these things out for ourselves. There's some disagreement between different humans and different cultures, to be sure, but there's more similarity than difference (the near universal acceptance of the golden rule, for instance).

Religions developed as a way for people to tolerate and make sense of the world, to find meaning, etc.: naturally our most important values would become a part of that search for understanding.

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Originally Posted by Capstan View Post

If spirituality exists- and I believe it does, because so much of the human experience is of a spiritual nature (our emotions, our imaginings, our honor and morality, politics, etc.)- it follows that more than just the physical senses are required to experience it. This of course cannot be physically known, but I believe we have spiritual senses. Many religious claims are bogus, but human spirituality nevertheless is a reality. As your sources suggest about physical deprivation, a lack of spiritual input would likely too result in a similar lunacy. If we can commune with a tree, why cannot we commune with a God? If we cannot, perhaps it's because our spiritual senses are not developed enough to do so.

That's the problem with a word like spirituality: it can mean many different things to different people. Since you're using it to refer to things of a non-material nature, or interaction with such "stuff", then all you can really do is say you believe in it. You can't say it's a "reality". You can't know that there is a God, or that there's anything of a spiritual nature in this universe. How could you? If I wake up tomorrow hearing voices and seeing visions and what not, can I conclude without any doubt that it's proof of the divine? How can I be certain I'm not hallucinating?

With most people's religious experiences, we're not talking about anything that tangible. We're talking about feelings or sensations of a presence or whatever. All of which is very real, I'll give you that. I used to be quite religious or spiritual myself, and I remember what it was like, and how amazing it was. But all you can take away from that is that humans are beings that can experience that sort of thing. Just because you feel God's presence, or God's love, or whatever, doesn't mean God actually exists, that there's someone really there who loves you. The mind is a very powerful thing.

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What's odd, as a spiritual man, I feel no need to belong to a group. It is my spirituality that allows me to feel an independence from the human collection.

I'm not sure where this remark even came from. I also feel a sort of distance and independence from other people, but at the same time do feel a need to belong to this world, to feel useful and as though I'm making a difference, or will be later in my life.

Direct action is always the clamorer, the initiator, through which the great sum of indifferentists become aware that oppression is getting intolerable. - Voltairine de Cleyre
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#310 Old 09-14-2011, 08:15 PM
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Some may choose to argue that we invented morality, but I never made this claim. I don't believe morality is invented. Morality is complex, to be sure, and it's not always easy to know what's right or wrong in a situation (and sometimes there is no clear right or wrong - all options might involve wrongdoing, for instance), but morality is nonetheless not a mere matter of opinion or human invention.

We can look at a situation and make objective claims about what's right or wrong to do, about what's just and fair (or unjust and unfair). Religion didn't give us that. We just simply evolved to a point where we're intelligent enough to figure these things out for ourselves. There's some disagreement between different humans and different cultures, to be sure, but there's more similarity than difference (the near universal acceptance of the golden rule, for instance).

Religions developed as a way for people to tolerate and make sense of the world, to find meaning, etc.: naturally our most important values would become a part of that search for understanding.



That's the problem with a word like spirituality: it can mean many different things to different people. Since you're using it to refer to things of a non-material nature, or interaction with such "stuff", then all you can really do is say you believe in it. You can't say it's a "reality". You can't know that there is a God, or that there's anything of a spiritual nature in this universe. How could you? If I wake up tomorrow hearing voices and seeing visions and what not, can I conclude without any doubt that it's proof of the divine? How can I be certain I'm not hallucinating?

With most people's religious experiences, we're not talking about anything that tangible. We're talking about feelings or sensations of a presence or whatever. All of which is very real, I'll give you that. I used to be quite religious or spiritual myself, and I remember what it was like, and how amazing it was. But all you can take away from that is that humans are beings that can experience that sort of thing. Just because you feel God's presence, or God's love, or whatever, doesn't mean God actually exists, that there's someone really there who loves you. The mind is a very powerful thing.



I'm not sure where this remark even came from. I also feel a sort of distance and independence from other people, but at the same time do feel a need to belong to this world, to feel useful and as though I'm making a difference, or will be later in my life.

This is what I was getting at before, that these issues are too complex, hazy and ill-defined to be reduced to mere words or mathematics. We each find our own way and contribute what we can. Or not.

"There is more wisdom in the song of a bird, than in the speech of a philosopher...." -Oahspe
"The thing is, you cannot judge a race. Any man who judges by the group is a pea-wit. You take men one at a time." -Buster Kilrain, The Killer Angels -Michael Shaara
"Anyone who doesn't believe in miracles isn't a realist." -Billy Wilder
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#311 Old 09-19-2011, 08:39 PM
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"Thou Shall Not Kill". G-D's approval rating would be high of vegetarians/vegans if G-D actually had the ability to approve/disapprove anything. Instead G-D transcends all of us, and is a part of every living organism. We must try and retain our spirituality.

God tells people to eat their own children in Leviticus 26:29 here: http://bible.cc/leviticus/26-29.htm
And again in Deuteronomy 28:53 here: http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...53&version=KJV

So much for "thou shalt not kill."
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#312 Old 09-19-2011, 09:23 PM
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But you opened your original statement with a fairly obvious "fire and brimstone" threat...

No kidding..... :/ But to be honest, any direct result of the "slamming" will also be a figment in another person's mind and not real to me, so I'm cool with it.
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