Abortion (warning: contains some graphic details) - VeggieBoards
Forum Jump: 
Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
#1 Old 06-27-2011, 01:30 PM
Veggie Regular
 
vegkid's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: In the depths of N'Kai
Posts: 3,910
This is a sincere abortion thread, started in response to the closing of the one started by a troll. As somebody told me, I will probably get... moans and groans for this but I wanted to get my view out there and hear other views.

I was about to post this in the other thread before it closed, and it sums up my opinion nicely:

Quote:
I have to agree that pro-abortion makes it sound totally different than it is, like pro-choicers go around trying to get as many babies aborted as possible.

My personal opinion is that it is a clump of cells and clumps of cells are not really deserving of rights, or Germ-X wouldn't exist.

Right now, sitting here at a laptop, my body has probably accidentally killed enough amoebas and other little bacteria/protists in the last 2 minutes that it would amount to half* the cells in an aborted early fetus/embryo. And that's just accidentally, without them having any possible effect on my life, such as, you know, the rest of it. If a woman can't handle a child, then she should have the choice to get an abortion. If it's caught early enough of course, while it still is just a clump of cells like the poor murdered amoebas. If it's become more than that, and functions like a human being, then obviously it shouldn't be killed. Just my two cents, I have no problem with those who disagree.

*Don't trust me on this number, I have no idea

EDIT: This thread is now Irizary's bus.

Enjoying the view over at http://forum.veggieviews.com/

vegkid is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
#2 Old 06-27-2011, 01:37 PM
Veggie Regular
 
Hazelnut's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,995
At what point does the zygote, embryo, fetus become a person?

Everyone feels differently. The Pope even states that life begins when the mother first becomes aware of movement.

Whether or not abortion should be allowed depends on the answer to the first question. The answer to that question is not only scientific, but religious. It is a personal decision.

It is a personal decision that can only ethically be made, one way or the other, after the person is properly educated. The current state of things allows people to feed misinformation to pregnant women who are already emotionally vulnerable.

I feel the debate about abortion is a religious one, and legislation needs to take that into consideration.

Give thanks to Mother Earth for Her greatest gift...

...gravity.

For without it, we would be lost.
Hazelnut is offline  
#3 Old 06-27-2011, 01:41 PM
Veggie Regular
 
Spang's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 1,722
I support a woman's right to make her own decisions.
Spang is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
#4 Old 06-27-2011, 01:57 PM
Veggie Regular
 
Josh James xVx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,097
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hazelnut View Post


I feel the debate about abortion is a religious one, and legislation needs to take that into consideration.


So you think religious people should be allowed to impose laws on people who don't share their religion?

Tam! RUGH!
Josh James xVx is offline  
#5 Old 06-27-2011, 02:10 PM
Veggie Regular
 
Hazelnut's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,995
Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh James xVx View Post

So you think religious people should be allowed to impose laws on people who don't share their religion?

No...
Where did you get that idea from?

I think religious people should NOT be allowed to impose laws on people who don't share their religion. We are fortunate enough to not live in a theocracy, so religious ideals do not belong in the courts.

Give thanks to Mother Earth for Her greatest gift...

...gravity.

For without it, we would be lost.
Hazelnut is offline  
#6 Old 06-27-2011, 02:12 PM
Veggie Regular
 
Josh James xVx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,097
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hazelnut View Post

No...
Where did you get that idea from?

I think religious people should NOT be allowed to impose laws on people who don't share their religion. We are fortunate enough to not live in a theocracy, so religious ideals do not belong in the courts.

You're damn right they don't. I was just checking to make sure I wasn't reading that very wrong.

Tam! RUGH!
Josh James xVx is offline  
#7 Old 06-27-2011, 02:13 PM
Veggie Regular
 
Hazelnut's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,995
Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh James xVx View Post

You're damn right they don't. I was just checking to make sure I wasn't reading that very wrong.


Give thanks to Mother Earth for Her greatest gift...

...gravity.

For without it, we would be lost.
Hazelnut is offline  
#8 Old 06-27-2011, 02:41 PM
Banned
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 2,587
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hazelnut View Post

At what point does the zygote, embryo, fetus become a person?

Everyone feels differently. The Pope even states that life begins when the mother first becomes aware of movement.

Whether or not abortion should be allowed depends on the answer to the first question. The answer to that question is not only scientific, but religious. It is a personal decision.

It is a personal decision that can only ethically be made, one way or the other, after the person is properly educated. The current state of things allows people to feed misinformation to pregnant women who are already emotionally vulnerable.

I feel the debate about abortion is a religious one, and legislation needs to take that into consideration.

its pretty clearly defined scientifically that a fetus only becomes a baby after birth, so it really isn't up to people to decide for themselves because these are the words that accurately describe the transition when a fetus turns into a baby. its simple biology.

saying this is not a scientific definition is pretty much ignoring facts. which religious people tend to do quite often
luvourmother is offline  
#9 Old 06-27-2011, 03:18 PM
Veggie Regular
 
vegkid's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: In the depths of N'Kai
Posts: 3,910
I still would rather not have people killing off 7-8 month old fetuses, because at that point, they are unarguably a child. The debate is mainly, are they still a child before they are unarguably a child?

Enjoying the view over at http://forum.veggieviews.com/

vegkid is offline  
#10 Old 06-27-2011, 03:27 PM
Veggie Regular
 
lucky_charm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 888
It doesn't have anything to do with whether the definition is 'fetus' or 'baby', it's to do with sentience surely? It's pretty clearly scientifically defined that a fetus can be sentient before birth, the problem is defining at what point that sentience kicks in. Would you be happy with the abortion of a 36 week old fetus which is not yet a 'born' baby but would almost certainly live if born? What about a 24 week old fetus which has a 50% survival rate? It's not just about the terminology.

Personally I am pro choice BUT I think that a decision to abort should be both as informed as possible and early as possible to decrease the risk of harming a sentient life form.

Quote:
Originally Posted by luvourmother View Post

its pretty clearly defined scientifically that a fetus only becomes a baby after birth, so it really isn't up to people to decide for themselves because these are the words that accurately describe the transition when a fetus turns into a baby. its simple biology.

saying this is not a scientific definition is pretty much ignoring facts. which religious people tend to do quite often

lucky_charm is offline  
#11 Old 06-27-2011, 03:29 PM
Veggie Regular
 
vegkid's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: In the depths of N'Kai
Posts: 3,910
Quote:
Originally Posted by lucky_charm View Post

Personally I am pro choice BUT I think that a decision to abort should be both as informed as possible and early as possible to decrease the risk of harming a sentient life form.

Exactly. While I want people to have the option, I'd still rather it only happened if people are entirely sure that it's the best idea and it's caught early enough.

Enjoying the view over at http://forum.veggieviews.com/

vegkid is offline  
#12 Old 06-27-2011, 03:36 PM
Veggie Regular
 
lucky_charm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 888
Quote:
Originally Posted by vegkid View Post

I still would rather not have people killing off 7-8 month old fetuses, because at that point, they are unarguably a child. The debate is mainly, are they still a child before they are unarguably a child?

From what I can see from reading on the subject, different scientists have different viewpoints about when a fetus begins to feel pain. It seems unlikely earlier than 4 months, and likely after 6 months, so an arbitrary line has to be drawn somewhere that allows the woman enough time to exercise the right to choose what happens to her own body while also protecting as far as possible the potentially sentient life form.
lucky_charm is offline  
#13 Old 06-27-2011, 03:39 PM
Veggie Regular
 
vegkid's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: In the depths of N'Kai
Posts: 3,910
5 months? Seems logical to me...

Enjoying the view over at http://forum.veggieviews.com/

vegkid is offline  
#14 Old 06-27-2011, 03:40 PM
Veggie Regular
 
AlixJ18's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 2,196
Pro-choice here, i don't think i could ever get an abortion especially if it's from me having consensual sex, but i won't stop others from having that right. I know that there's nothing good that comes from forcing women to carry a child they don't want, and if you made a law against it, you'd have to add that you can get one if the mother is in danger, but that will then turn into something different, plus who's to say mental health isn't as important as physical health, what if the woman is fine physically but carrying a baby and giving birth was detrimental to her mental health who would decide that? A lot of pro life people don't think about stuff like this, but then again is seems like they rarely care about the possible mother to be anyway. Oh ya and their term is pretty stupid, i'm pretty sure we're all pro life.
AlixJ18 is offline  
#15 Old 06-27-2011, 04:01 PM
Veggie Regular
 
sequoia's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 5,299
You should all know that the decision to have an abortion is rarely taken lightly by the pregnant woman. Late-term abortions, according to the doctors who perform them, are only ever performed if the life of the mother is at risk.

"If you are lonely when you're alone, you are in bad company."
Jean-Paul Sartre
sequoia is offline  
#16 Old 06-27-2011, 04:12 PM
Veggie Regular
 
Hazelnut's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,995
Quote:
Originally Posted by sequoia View Post

You should all know that the decision to have an abortion is rarely taken lightly by the pregnant woman. Late-term abortions, according to the doctors who perform them, are only ever performed if the life of the mother is at risk.

I know!
All of the laws trying to prevent abortions really act like an abortion is just something we might decide to do on a whim on the way to getting our hair done!

Give thanks to Mother Earth for Her greatest gift...

...gravity.

For without it, we would be lost.
Hazelnut is offline  
#17 Old 06-27-2011, 04:30 PM
Veggie Regular
 
sequoia's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 5,299
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hazelnut View Post

I know!
All of the laws trying to prevent abortions really act like an abortion is just something we might decide to do on a whim on the way to getting our hair done!

"Well I just got my nails and hair done, and I have an hour before I have to meet Marge for lunch. I think I'll stop by the clinic and get an abortion!"

"If you are lonely when you're alone, you are in bad company."
Jean-Paul Sartre
sequoia is offline  
#18 Old 06-27-2011, 04:49 PM
Veggie Regular
 
Hazelnut's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,995
Quote:
Originally Posted by sequoia View Post

"Well I just got my nails and hair done, and I have an hour before I have to meet Marge for lunch. I think I'll stop by the clinic and get an abortion!"

Because we females are always doing silly things like that...

Give thanks to Mother Earth for Her greatest gift...

...gravity.

For without it, we would be lost.
Hazelnut is offline  
#19 Old 06-27-2011, 06:22 PM
Arrrg! Me mateys.
 
Puppet Master's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 5,591
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hazelnut View Post

The Pope even states that life begins when the mother first becomes aware of movement.

Some people don't find out they're pregnant until they're giving birth.

korrakorrakorrakorrakorra
Puppet Master is offline  
#20 Old 06-27-2011, 06:58 PM
Banned
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 1,368
When it comes to some liberals looking for free prenatal care for illegals, it is as soon as the woman gets pregnant that the life begins. The argument was that the care was not for the mother, but for the Baby, that was a citizen,, even as early as a couple weeks old.
So there we have it, as described by liberals, life begins at conception.
Fatman is offline  
#21 Old 06-27-2011, 07:03 PM
Veggie Regular
 
ElaineV's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 4,026
I don't think it has anything to do with the fetus. I think it has everything to do with the pregnant woman.
I'm staunchly pro-choice. Legally, women need the right of personal autonomy. It's not ok to force women to endure pregnancies they don't want.

However, I would not get an abortion and I do have ethical problems with them.
There's a difference between what should be legal and what is right or wrong. With abortion, there's a lot of gray areas between right and wrong, but its clear that abortion needs to stay legal. The existing sentient being's rights supersede the non-existing human's "rights."
ElaineV is offline  
#22 Old 06-27-2011, 08:19 PM
Veggie Regular
 
vegkid's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: In the depths of N'Kai
Posts: 3,910
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fatman View Post

When it comes to some liberals looking for free prenatal care for illegals, it is as soon as the woman gets pregnant that the life begins. The argument was that the care was not for the mother, but for the Baby, that was a citizen,, even as early as a couple weeks old.
So there we have it, as described by liberals, life begins at conception.

Wait, now this is about illegals? This is why I tend to not take your political posts seriously.

And I'm a kid who knows next to nothing about politics. Really, you should be ashamed.

Or you could just ignore me since I clearly don't know what I'm talking about...

Anyways, the fact that the embryo exists at conception does not mean it has rights. It simply means that if the embryo ends up as a human being, it has the right of being a citizen since it was born here. The embryo in its current state a few weeks after conception is not a citizen. I don't believe in rejecting medical care for anyone, so although you can argue that their reasoning is a bit convoluted I believe it paid off.

Although now I can see where they're coming from. That mother probably did not want her child aborted, so it's their responsibility to care for what will, with almost no doubt, end up as a U.S. citizen.

Enjoying the view over at http://forum.veggieviews.com/

vegkid is offline  
#23 Old 06-28-2011, 11:15 AM
Veggie Regular
 
GoGoGoddess's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 711
OK, so to steer this back to the original topic...


I don't like the idea of abortion. I think they're horrible and I hope I never have to go through one.

BUT

What the **** gives me the right to stop other women having them just because I don't like them? Nothing. I don't know their situation or what led to them having the termination, so I don't judge. Simple.

"If you want to know what a man's like, take a good look at how he treats his inferiors, not his equals." -Sirius Black
GoGoGoddess is offline  
#24 Old 06-28-2011, 03:11 PM
Veggie Regular
 
das_nut's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 8,130
It seems to me that a 1 day old zygote is obviously not a human being, and very few people blink an eye if it dies.

But a 39 week old fetus is something that is remarkably undifferent from a newborn baby, and many people would be upset at it's death.

Somewhere, in-between, there's a line. Err on the side of caution, if you must, but up to a point, it's hard to argue that the developing life is anything like a human being. It's alive, and it is a separate life from the individual carrying it, but it does not have the same right to continue to exist that humans have.
das_nut is offline  
#25 Old 06-28-2011, 03:18 PM
Veggie Regular
 
sequoia's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 5,299
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoGoGoddess View Post

OK, so to steer this back to the original topic...


I don't like the idea of abortion. I think they're horrible and I hope I never have to go through one.

BUT

What the **** gives me the right to stop other women having them just because I don't like them? Nothing. I don't know their situation or what led to them having the termination, so I don't judge. Simple.

I really wish more people thought this way.

"If you are lonely when you're alone, you are in bad company."
Jean-Paul Sartre
sequoia is offline  
#26 Old 06-28-2011, 03:29 PM
Veggie Regular
 
Fromper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Chicago, IL, USA
Posts: 7,014
Quote:
Originally Posted by Puppet Master View Post

Some people don't find out they're pregnant until they're giving birth.

Scary as it sounds, I actually knew someone that this happened to. It was my boss's wife at my first job when I was in high school. The woman went on a diet and lost about 100 lbs, but she was still pretty big even with that weight loss. So she gained a little bit of the weight back and didn't think anything of it. One day, she got a severe stomach ache, went to the emergency room for it, and they pulled out a baby.

--Fromper
Fromper is offline  
#27 Old 06-28-2011, 03:31 PM
Veggie Regular
 
Josh James xVx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,097
Abortion is a surgery.

A surgery is something that is supposed to fix an illness or a defect with the body.

If you have to have a surgery of any kind, whether to remove a tumor or a fetus, sometimes that's just genetic and something you couldn't help, but in a lot of cases there's some preventive measure you could have taken first.

In the case of pregnancy, it's obviously the end result of unprotected or otherwise poorly planned or unplanned physical intimacy between two people who are not ready to become parents.

Since abortion is a surgery, it should be legal, safe and rare like all surgeries. Part of keeping it rare is making sure young people are equipped with the proper mental tools to empower themselves to avoid underage pregnancies in the first place. But there's a great big obstacle blocking that and I'll call a spade a spade. It's called the neo-conservative agenda. Ironically, the exact same people who are so stridently against abortion are the ones helping ensure the highest number of unwanted pregnancies happen in my country because their agenda also includes sub par or non-existent sex education and demonizing things like free condoms or promoting masturbation as an alternative to sex. This not only doesn't save lives but it ends up causing far more unwanted pregnancies and abortions than before.

Tam! RUGH!
Josh James xVx is offline  
#28 Old 06-28-2011, 03:34 PM
Veggie Regular
 
Fromper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Chicago, IL, USA
Posts: 7,014
Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh James xVx View Post

Abortion is a surgery.

A surgery is something that is supposed to fix an illness or a defect with the body.

If you have to have a surgery of any kind, whether to remove a tumor or a fetus, sometimes that's just genetic and something you couldn't help, but in a lot of cases there's some preventive measure you could have taken first.

In the case of pregnancy, it's obviously the end result of unprotected or otherwise poorly planned or unplanned physical intimacy between two people who are not ready to become parents.

Since abortion is a surgery, it should be legal, safe and rare like all surgeries. Part of keeping it rare is making sure young people are equipped with the proper mental tools to empower themselves to avoid underage pregnancies in the first place. But there's a great big obstacle blocking that and I'll call a spade a spade. It's called the neo-conservative agenda. Ironically, the exact same people who are so stridently against abortion are the ones helping ensure the highest number of unwanted pregnancies happen in my country because their agenda also includes sub par or non-existent sex education and demonizing things like free condoms or promoting masturbation as an alternative to sex. This not only doesn't save lives but it ends up causing far more unwanted pregnancies and abortions than before.

Yup. We should skip the war on drugs and declare war on unwanted pregnancies instead. But people like Sarah Palin, who opposed sex ed in schools as Alaska's governor, continue to oppose such measures, and we all know how well that worked out for her daughter.

--Fromper
Fromper is offline  
#29 Old 06-28-2011, 03:47 PM
Veggie Regular
 
Josh James xVx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,097
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fromper View Post

Yup. We should skip the war on drugs and declare war on unwanted pregnancies instead. But people like Sarah Palin, who opposed sex ed in schools as Alaska's governor, continue to oppose such measures, and we all know how well that worked out for her daughter.

--Fromper


Instead of waging wars on social ills, I think we should wage a war on ignorance. When it comes to combating the "family oriented" destructive policies of wing nuts, however, fighting them and grappling with ignorance are synonymous.

Tam! RUGH!
Josh James xVx is offline  
#30 Old 06-28-2011, 04:04 PM
Veggie Regular
 
fadeaway1289's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 10,324
Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh James xVx View Post

In the case of pregnancy, it's obviously the end result of unprotected or otherwise poorly planned or unplanned physical intimacy between two people who are not ready to become parents.

Since abortion is a surgery, it should be legal, safe and rare like all surgeries. Part of keeping it rare is making sure young people are equipped with the proper mental tools to empower themselves to avoid underage pregnancies in the first place. But there's a great big obstacle blocking that and I'll call a spade a spade. It's called the neo-conservative agenda. Ironically, the exact same people who are so stridently against abortion are the ones helping ensure the highest number of unwanted pregnancies happen in my country because their agenda also includes sub par or non-existent sex education and demonizing things like free condoms or promoting masturbation as an alternative to sex. This not only doesn't save lives but it ends up causing far more unwanted pregnancies and abortions than before.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Fromper View Post

Yup. We should skip the war on drugs and declare war on unwanted pregnancies instead. But people like Sarah Palin, who opposed sex ed in schools as Alaska's governor, continue to oppose such measures, and we all know how well that worked out for her daughter.

--Fromper



Quote:
Originally Posted by luvourmother View Post

I do. I have been deemed sane by several mental health professionals as well. I have no problems with immigrants both "legal" and not. I also live in southern California where there are probably more immigrants than most places in the country. If someone wants to be in this country, let them be.

I also agree with this.
fadeaway1289 is offline  
Closed Thread

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the VeggieBoards forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
If you do not want to register, fill this field only and the name will be used as user name for your post.
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in


Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off