French Facial Clothing Ban Goes Into Effect; Several Arrested - VeggieBoards
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#1 Old 04-11-2011, 08:03 AM
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France's attempt to restrict religious expression has been met with civil disobedience. At least one lady plans to take her freedom as far as the European Court of Civil Rights, if necessary.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/42528909...d_news-europe/

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#2 Old 04-11-2011, 08:09 AM
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That is shocking. I would say that their human rights are being infringed by having this ban forced upon them.

Loving the term "unauthorised protest".......

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#3 Old 04-11-2011, 09:40 AM
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I wonder how many women simply won't leave the house anymore rather than go in public without a veil.

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#4 Old 04-11-2011, 09:53 AM
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I wonder how many women simply won't leave the house anymore rather than go in public without a veil.

This.

I hope this does not stand.
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#5 Old 04-11-2011, 09:56 AM
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This will not end the way the French intended.

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#6 Old 04-11-2011, 10:00 AM
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Well, Good for the French.

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#7 Old 04-11-2011, 10:51 AM
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Hmm I think this is wrong. Although personally I find it disconcerting not to be able to see someone elses face, people have every right to dress how they like and I don't believe (short of indecency or public saftey) the government ought to be able to tell people what to wear, especially if it infringes on their religion and could cause them great distress, because it goes against either what they believe or what they feel comfortable with.
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#8 Old 04-11-2011, 11:12 AM
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I remember reading a newspaper article about American women in the military during Bush 1, Iraq 1. These women were stationed in Saudi Arabia. To keep the peace the military asked them to respect the local culture by not driving, also by not being seen off base dressed in pants, their uniforms etc.

Cultural sensitivity is a two way street. Somehow I don't think Islamic countries take it as seriously as we do.

I don't like that they are arresting women over this law. Fines would be enough.

I think the ideas behind wearing burqas are misogynistic. It is really an upside down world hearing that this is being spun as a issue of the rights of those women.
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#9 Old 04-11-2011, 11:14 AM
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This will not end the way the French intended.

The French, who are historically among the most freedom-loving people in the world, have really pulled a boner with this one. They've forgotten who they are. I hope they get their butts kicked.

In view of their stated good intentions, how many think the United States should prohibit the wearing of bonnets and aprons by Amish women, a Jewish man to wear a kipa or make rosary beads and crucifixes illegal in public?

What utter folly.

I don't know whether to laugh or cry about this.

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#10 Old 04-11-2011, 11:15 AM
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...... I don't believe (short of indecency or public saftey) the government ought to be able to tell people what to wear, especially if it infringes on their religion and could cause them great distress, because it goes against either what they believe or what they feel comfortable with.

I'm not sure where I stand on this: but I do know that the Koran says both men and women should dress modestly: nowhere does it say that a woman (and women only) should have to cover all of their face. Only a patriarchal Muslim society demands this, and forces women to do it.

According to the articles I have read about this, the vast majority of Muslim women in France who do cover their face are French born, and stricter Muslims than their parents, having spent time with Muslim radicals: which indicates that the wearing of the veil is their personal choice, not a patriochal requirement; a statement to the rest of the country, and not about what they think/have been told the Koran says.

I am against religion being used as an excuse for breaking laws and rules in our country: for example, a motorcyclist going into a petrol station is required to remove his/her crash helmet, or someone wearing a balaclava would be asked to remove it, whereas someone in a niqab will not be asked to show their face; and Sikhs don't have to wear crash helmets because they wear turbans. The law should be the same for everyone, IMHO. Whether that means that balaclavas and helmets should be allowed in petrol stations, and people allowed to wear a hat instead of a helmet is, of course, up for debate.
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#11 Old 04-11-2011, 11:17 AM
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This is a pretty stupid ban. I am all for banning facial covering in certain situations, but in general people should be wearing what they want. I do feel like it is used as oppression to women (even if they choose it), but in order to stop it i would not ban it, just work more on educating people. as long as people want something that is harming them, burkas drugs or anything, they should have it
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#12 Old 04-11-2011, 11:27 AM
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This is a pretty stupid ban. I am all for banning facial covering in certain situations, but in general people should be wearing what they want. I do feel like it is used as oppression to women (even if they choose it), but in order to stop it i would not ban it, just work more on educating people. as long as people want something that is harming them, burkas drugs or anything, they should have it

I do think the problem is more likely to go away if we ignore it, than if we (or they, the French) make a big deal out of it. It may take a generation or two, but once fully Westernised, nobody will choose, or be forced to wear it.
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#13 Old 04-11-2011, 11:32 AM
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I'm not sure where I stand on this: but I do know that the Koran says both men and women should dress modestly: nowhere does it say that a woman (and women only) should have to cover all of their face. Only a patriarchal Muslim society demands this, and forces women to do it.

I don't know a lot about Islam, so I didn't know that. Perhaps not "because it infringes on their religion" but "because it infringes on their beliefs" then, which for me is just as good. If you feel showing your face is immodest, you should be allowed to dress 'modestly', most cultures have different ideas about modest and I know I would not like to be made to dress less modestly than I felt comfortable with.

Anyway religion aside, I'm not sure I understand the reason why they've banned facial clothing anyway? Maybe I'm missing something, it's surely not a topic I'm very well informed on, but nonetheless it just seems wrong to me for the government to start making laws about what clothes people can wear.

I see your point about motor cycle helments/etc - is that actually the law or just a general rule?

ETA: I looked it up a bit more but couldn't really find a given reason by any of the articles of why the law was made. I did see that the law excludes balacalavas, motorcycle helmets, fencing masks and other facial clothing... so isn't that just as bad, but in reverse?
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#14 Old 04-11-2011, 11:34 AM
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Hmm I think this is wrong. Although personally I find it disconcerting not to be able to see someone elses face, people have every right to dress how they like and I don't believe (short of indecency or public saftey) the government ought to be able to tell people what to wear, especially if it infringes on their religion and could cause them great distress, because it goes against either what they believe or what they feel comfortable with.

"Indecency" means different things to different people. And people don't have every right to dress how they like. Some states have laws against wearing a mask of any sort in public. And just try walking into a bank with one.

Especially if it infringes on their religion?! No!!! No special rights for religious people, as that is unfair to non-religious people. Everyone should be treated equally under the law.

Although, I support the law, I think it is probably too little, too late.
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#15 Old 04-11-2011, 11:40 AM
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"Indecency" means different things to different people. And people don't have every right to dress how they like. Some states have laws against wearing a mask of any sort in public. And just try walking into a bank with one.

Especially if it infringes on their religion?! No!!! No special rights for religious people, as that is unfair to non-religious people. Everyone should be treated equally under the law.

Although, I support the law, I think it is probably too little, too late.

Hmm I meant I think people SHOULD have every right to dress how they like in public, and I don't live in the states.

I don't think it's special rights for religious people, I think an equal society means respecting differences and catering for them, and for me there's a difference between asking someone to remove an item of clothing that is meaningless to them and asking them to remove an item of clothing when doing so will cause them distress or upset them. But in either case, the law shouldn't require them to remove it.
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#16 Old 04-11-2011, 12:01 PM
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Some say that gay people want special rights, but they don't. They want equal rights and they deserve equal rights. Religious people do want special rights and they do NOT deserve them. No one deserves special rights.

Extra rights = special rights.

And who are you to say that it is not just as traumatizing for some balding men to remove their caps in public, as it is for some women with face veils to remove them? Are you a mind reader?

Either we ALL have the right to cover up a part of our body, or we ALL don't.
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#17 Old 04-11-2011, 12:15 PM
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Facial clothing. Is this what they call this now. Unless we're in the desert with hot sand whipping in our faces, people were not meant to live with their faces covered. Senses are obstructed. Women can't see, hear or breathe as well.

I don't care if this part of some religion. It's wrong. It's just one half of the population. I've actually seen a picture of a man shirtless at a beach with a woman in full covered garb. What B.S..

As an independent woman who has never relied on a man (except for my stepfather who raised us) this makes me angry. And I've never felt oppressed because I'm a woman. But this is pure oppression and it makes me so mad. And whenever I get upset about something, I remember at least I don't have to live like these poor women. And I can't help but believe some of them truly hate it.
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#18 Old 04-11-2011, 12:55 PM
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Facial clothing. Is this what they call this now. Unless we're in the desert with hot sand whipping in our faces, people were not meant to live with their faces covered. Senses are obstructed. Women can't see, hear or breathe as well.

I don't care if this part of some religion. It's wrong. It's just one half of the population. I've actually seen a picture of a man shirtless at a beach with a woman in full covered garb. What B.S..

As an independent woman who has never relied on a man (except for my stepfather who raised us) this makes me angry. And I've never felt oppressed because I'm a woman. But this is pure oppression and it makes me so mad. And whenever I get upset about something, I remember at least I don't have to live like these poor women. And I can't help but believe some of them truly hate it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by delicioso View Post

Some say that gay people want special rights, but they don't. They want equal rights and they deserve equal rights. Religious people do want special rights and they do NOT deserve them. No one deserves special rights.

Extra rights = special rights.

And who are you to say that it is not just as traumatizing for some balding men to remove their caps in public, as it is for some women with face veils to remove them? Are you a mind reader?

Either we ALL have the right to cover up a part of our body, or we ALL don't.

++++++++++++ 1
i just wish everyone could see that.
Here in Canada locals are afraid to talk from fear of being called racist etc etc... They keep their anger to themselves.
You'd think if you let someone come and live in your own country and protect them from the indecency, the poverty, and the injustice they lived in their country, they would be grateful and respect your laws, your culture and your home. But instead, they are accusing you of intolerance and are trying to create problems out of nothing when you are just asking them to behave like the people here behave.
No one is pressuring them to keep living in their new home, they can go back whenever they want and wear the veil as much as they want.

This makes me sick.

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#19 Old 04-11-2011, 12:59 PM
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They probably banned it because they're Islamophobic. It starts with wearing veils...it ends with Sharia Law! People here in the US are afraid of Sharia Law coming (it's won't) so I wouldn't be surprised if it's the same way in France. If they ban the veil they should ban all forms of religious expression to be fair but they probably won't.

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#20 Old 04-11-2011, 01:01 PM
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Facial clothing. Is this what they call this now. Unless we're in the desert with hot sand whipping in our faces, people were not meant to live with their faces covered. Senses are obstructed. Women can't see, hear or breathe as well.

I don't care if this part of some religion. It's wrong. It's just one half of the population. I've actually seen a picture of a man shirtless at a beach with a woman in full covered garb. What B.S..

As an independent woman who has never relied on a man (except for my stepfather who raised us) this makes me angry. And I've never felt oppressed because I'm a woman. But this is pure oppression and it makes me so mad. And whenever I get upset about something, I remember at least I don't have to live like these poor women. And I can't help but believe some of them truly hate it.

A lot of times women choose to cover themselves this way. I have Muslims friends who are women and cover themselves because they want to.

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#21 Old 04-11-2011, 02:24 PM
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++++++++++++ 1
i just wish everyone could see that.
Here in Canada locals are afraid to talk from fear of being called racist etc etc... They keep their anger to themselves.
You'd think if you let someone come and live in your own country and protect them from the indecency, the poverty, and the injustice they lived in their country, they would be grateful and respect your laws, your culture and your home. But instead, they are accusing you of intolerance and are trying to create problems out of nothing when you are just asking them to behave like the people here behave.
No one is pressuring them to keep living in their new home, they can go back whenever they want and wear the veil as much as they want.

This makes me sick.

I can't count all the ways in which I disagree with this post. I'm Canadian too - please, tell me, how do "the people here" behave? Because where I live, people behave and dress in all kinds of ways. I can walk around town and see people in face veils, saris, business suits, doo-rags, dreadlocks and yoga pants all on the same day. Which ones are behaving like "the people here" and which ones are being disrespectful of "our" (???) culture?
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#22 Old 04-11-2011, 03:57 PM
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Everyone complains about the U.S.A sticking its nose in everyone else's business, so I think we should sit out and let France conduct its own affairs.

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#23 Old 04-11-2011, 04:09 PM
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I can't count all the ways in which I disagree with this post. I'm Canadian too - please, tell me, how do "the people here" behave? Because where I live, people behave and dress in all kinds of ways. I can walk around town and see people in face veils, saris, business suits, doo-rags, dreadlocks and yoga pants all on the same day. Which ones are behaving like "the people here" and which ones are being disrespectful of "our" (???) culture?

For one, two weeks ago there was a Soccer match here in Montreal between Algeria and Tunisia. You know how i found out about it? People wearing flags like superheros were on the streets running and screaming, forcing locals to stop driving. I was in the bus, they started hitting the bus, and the bus driver almost hit one if he didnt brake early. We were scared, i was terrified. You don't see people in the gay parade hitting cars now do you? What is really entertaining is that this isn't Algeria or Tunisia, This is Canada.
This is one between many examples i have seen.

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#24 Old 04-11-2011, 04:19 PM
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Some say that gay people want special rights, but they don't. They want equal rights and they deserve equal rights. Religious people do want special rights and they do NOT deserve them. No one deserves special rights.

Extra rights = special rights.

And who are you to say that it is not just as traumatizing for some balding men to remove their caps in public, as it is for some women with face veils to remove them? Are you a mind reader?

Either we ALL have the right to cover up a part of our body, or we ALL don't.

No, some religious people are asking for the right to dress however they want to. That's a right that non-religious people have, for the most part, with the exception of public indecency laws which apply to atheists AND theists of all types.

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Originally Posted by Teresa View Post

Facial clothing. Is this what they call this now. Unless we're in the desert with hot sand whipping in our faces, people were not meant to live with their faces covered. Senses are obstructed. Women can't see, hear or breathe as well.

I don't care if this part of some religion. It's wrong. It's just one half of the population. I've actually seen a picture of a man shirtless at a beach with a woman in full covered garb. What B.S..

As an independent woman who has never relied on a man (except for my stepfather who raised us) this makes me angry. And I've never felt oppressed because I'm a woman. But this is pure oppression and it makes me so mad. And whenever I get upset about something, I remember at least I don't have to live like these poor women. And I can't help but believe some of them truly hate it.

Okay that's nice, but some women feel differently. Why should the fact that YOU don't like 'face coverings' stop THEM from using them?

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Originally Posted by NAGEV View Post

++++++++++++ 1
i just wish everyone could see that.
Here in Canada locals are afraid to talk from fear of being called racist etc etc... They keep their anger to themselves.
You'd think if you let someone come and live in your own country and protect them from the indecency, the poverty, and the injustice they lived in their country, they would be grateful and respect your laws, your culture and your home. But instead, they are accusing you of intolerance and are trying to create problems out of nothing when you are just asking them to behave like the people here behave.
No one is pressuring them to keep living in their new home, they can go back whenever they want and wear the veil as much as they want.

This makes me sick.

I think what you mean is "racists are afraid to air their racist views in case they get called racist".

It makes me feel sick that you think refugees owe you or "your" country something for coming there to avoid persecution, violence or death.
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#25 Old 04-11-2011, 04:20 PM
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For one, two weeks ago there was a Soccer match here in Montreal between Algeria and Tunisia. You know how i found out about it? People wearing flags like superheros were on the streets running and screaming, forcing locals to stop driving. I was in the bus, they started hitting the bus, and the bus driver almost hit one if he didnt brake early. We were scared, i was terrified. You don't see people in the gay parade hitting cars now do you? What is really entertaining is that this isn't Algeria or Tunisia, This is Canada.
This is one between many examples i have seen.

Yeah, people in Canada never get rowdy and disruptive when celebrating major athletic victories.

And in any case, that's a terrible example because it has no bearing on this situation whatsoever. I'm sure it was quite a scary experience for you. How is a woman going about her business in a burka even remotely analogous? Are there women in burkas running all over France hitting buses and stopping traffic? And perhaps even more saliently, will banning the burka stop them from doing this?
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#26 Old 04-11-2011, 04:20 PM
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For one, two weeks ago there was a Soccer match here in Montreal between Algeria and Tunisia. You know how i found out about it? People wearing flags like superheros were on the streets running and screaming, forcing locals to stop driving. I was in the bus, they started hitting the bus, and the bus driver almost hit one if he didnt brake early. We were scared, i was terrified. You don't see people in the gay parade hitting cars now do you? What is really entertaining is that this isn't Algeria or Tunisia, This is Canada.
This is one between many examples i have seen.

Oh my God, people who weren't born in Canada were enjoying football?? In their excitement, they acted exuberantly? In your paranoia, you were "scared"? MAN THE GUNS, MAN THE GUNS, THE MUSLIMS ARE STARTING A WAR!!!11
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#27 Old 04-11-2011, 04:36 PM
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I don't like guys in skinny jeans. It offends my sensibilities. There should not be a law banning guys from wearing skinny jeans.

Or rather, if France is going to maintain this, they should also ban the wearing of ALL religious symbols (prayer shawls, cross or Star of David Jewerly, etc.).

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#28 Old 04-11-2011, 04:49 PM
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Yeah, people in Canada never get rowdy and disruptive when celebrating major athletic victories.

And in any case, that's a terrible example because it has no bearing on this situation whatsoever. I'm sure it was quite a scary experience for you. How is a woman going about her business in a burka even remotely analogous? Are there women in burkas running all over France hitting buses and stopping traffic? And perhaps even more saliently, will banning the burka stop them from doing this?

they have in the past. I don't remember any canadians going nuts over hockey in the last 3 years.
Mind you, i'm not even canadian. I'm from the middle east. It's been 3 years since i moved to montreal.
I wasn't replying to the thread, i was reinforcing the posts i quoted. And the people who were doing such demonstration in the streets were mostly girls with hijabs and men.

Earthling, in order to get your citizenship in Canada, the best way is to have a degree from here, a good one, then apply for a job.
When you're going through the procedures they might accept you or not. But in order to accept you, they should see that you have something to offer to this country ( a degree they are in need for the market) and that you speak English and French fluently.
Yes, we do owe the country that is protecting a lot. We do owe it respect to its laws as well to its culture, we should be involved to make it a better community and not create problems.

Last year, on the national holiday of Quebec, St Jean Baptists, I was in Vieux port (there is usually a open air event). It was awesome, until i saw 6 dudes drunk smoking pot, and crashing their bear bottles. You know what they were screaming? it was in Arabic, and i did understand it ALL. They were saying bad words about Quebec, like F*** U QUEBEC ETC ETC ETC.
What did I do? I looked down on the floor with shame.

First year i came here, i had no friends. The first people to greet me were arabs from my home country at the university.
They were cool until I've seen them for who they really are. There is this one guy who's parents are divorced. His mom took him and his siblings to Canada because she can't be a mom on her own in our home country.
His mom is on welfare. All he talks about is how bad Canada is, i asked him why doesnt he goes back to our country because he does have the rest of his family there (uncles, aunts, grandparents) he replied no one will take me. I was shocked, you'd think he'd love the country who gave his mother free money and her dignity back and allowed her to raise her 4 children but no he prefered to bash on it and raise the country where the people from his own flesh and blood wouldn't take him.

You want to talk about minorities? I'm up for it. I am one.

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#29 Old 04-11-2011, 05:37 PM
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I don't remember any canadians going nuts over hockey in the last 3 years.

You can't possibly be serious.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HHc6VGIK8-I

ETA I have to laugh at the irony of someone who "doesn't remember" Vancouver 2010 making a stink about people disrespecting Canadian culture.
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#30 Old 04-11-2011, 05:41 PM
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can't wait to see how far this goes...

Atame.
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