Westboro Baptist Church members banned from entering the UK - Page 3 - VeggieBoards
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#61 Old 04-09-2011, 09:05 AM
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Yes, it absolutely should not be considered a crime. I really truly do not understand allowing ourselves to give so much power to a bunch of loudmouth cretins protesting a loved one's funeral that we actually take on board the ridiculous things they are saying and allow them to increase our grief. I've lost loved ones. I still grieve, decades later. But I simply can't imagine any other reaction to people doing stuff like this than completely ignoring them. Or possibly laughing at them.

But to allow them so much power over you that you would consider endangering everyone's freedom of speech just to shut them up? I think that almost as crazy as the Phelps are. They need to be shunned and ignored, not to go down in history as the people who set the precedent for the USA to negate the First Amendment of our Constitution.

People want to criminalize what the Phelps are saying because they don't want to hear it. Once we go there, who's next on the chopping block? America doesn't like vegetarians, vegans, animal rights advocates, atheists, socialists, and on and on. If you don't want to hear what someone has to say, take their power to upset you away from them by learning to ignore them. Don't make their speech a crime. Unless you want to set up martyrs history will never forget. I don't think the Westboro Baptist Church deserves that kind of recognition.

I already explained that I have nothing wrong against freedom of speech. It's freedom of personal attack that I have a problem with. The first amendment does not need to be compromised to take away their power to viciously attack innocent people. If it were them blogging about it and talking about it on TV etc. then it would be one thing. But coming to someone's funeral and saying you're glad they're dead? Disturbing a gay pride convention and telling them they're evil? That needs to be punished, no matter who is doing it.

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#62 Old 04-09-2011, 09:08 AM
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I already explained that I have nothing wrong against freedom of speech. It's freedom of personal attack that I have a problem with. The first amendment does not need to be compromised to take away their power to viciously attack innocent people. If it were them blogging about it and talking about it on TV etc. then it would be one thing. But coming to someone's funeral and saying you're glad they're dead? Disturbing a gay pride convention and telling them they're evil? That needs to be punished, no matter who is doing it.

It's NOT personal Attacks, it's attacking an IDEA.

"Meat is Murder signs" attack and IDEA, should that be illegal as well?

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#63 Old 04-09-2011, 09:16 AM
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I already explained that I have nothing wrong against freedom of speech. It's freedom of personal attack that I have a problem with. The first amendment does not need to be compromised to take away their power to viciously attack innocent people. If it were them blogging about it and talking about it on TV etc. then it would be one thing. But coming to someone's funeral and saying you're glad they're dead? Disturbing a gay pride convention and telling them they're evil? That needs to be punished, no matter who is doing it.

No. Verbal abuse is not an attack. Precisely because what constitutes a verbal "attack" means something different to every single individual who hears something they don't want to hear. I don't want to go to jail because I told someone I think they are an ******* for being a meat eater, and they decided to call that hate speech and claim I "attacked" them by hoping they choked on their next sausage.

Not that I've ever done that. But still.

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#64 Old 04-09-2011, 09:19 AM
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Even in those situations, they have NOT commited ANY crime. Until they actually hurt someone physically it is NOT a crime.

So you think bullying should be covered by free speech?
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#65 Old 04-09-2011, 09:27 AM
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So you think bullying should be covered by free speech?

We as a society fail woefully at teaching people not to be bullies in the first place. Criminalizing people for calling one another names isn't the solution. And I was bullied in school so cruelly and relentlessly that I considered suicide. Verbal bullying needs to be prevented, or dealt with in other ways, rather than attempting to make speech a crime.

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#66 Old 04-09-2011, 09:29 AM
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It's NOT personal Attacks, it's attacking an IDEA.

Okay, so the fact that they wrote on their site "Hey everyone! This little girl is dead! Let's picket her funeral with statements that are directed TOWARDS her FAMILY!" is attacking a general idea? Not a specific person and family? Or "Thank God for another dead soldier!" at a soldier's funeral? Oh, they must be referring to the IDEA of a dead soldier, it couldn't possibly be the one who is being buried as they speak!

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"Meat is Murder signs" attack and IDEA, should that be illegal as well?

Now that IS attacking an idea, but I must say that yes, PETA goes way too overboard on tons of occasions and there should be a law to limit that as well.

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#67 Old 04-09-2011, 09:29 AM
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It's NOT personal Attacks, it's attacking an IDEA.

"Meat is Murder signs" attack and IDEA, should that be illegal as well?

It's meant as a personal attack at funerals. It's not a coincidence that the picketers show up. HUGE difference between picketing a funeral (where people are suffering from mental anguish) and just some random event. Who the hell pickets a funeral? They're picketing a dead person (try to get them to change?) and bullying their family, that's all they're doing.

I've never seen AR people picket a funeral and when they do, I will personally fight against them. Plus, Meat is Murder isn't hateful like "God Hates Fags." Maybe a law protecting funerals from picketers would solve the issue I have.
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#68 Old 04-09-2011, 09:32 AM
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We as a society fail woefully at teaching people not to be bullies in the first place. Criminalizing people for calling one another names isn't the solution. And I was bullied in school so cruelly and relentlessly that I considered suicide. Verbal bullying needs to be prevented, or dealt with in other ways, rather than attempting to make speech a crime.

How do you suggest we deal with it? How do we make these people stop picketing funerals?
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#69 Old 04-09-2011, 09:33 AM
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Okay, so the fact that they wrote on their site "Hey everyone! This little girl is dead! Let's picket her funeral with statements that are directed TOWARDS her FAMILY!" is attacking a general idea? Not a specific person and family? Or "Thank God for another dead soldier!" at a soldier's funeral? Oh, they must be referring to the IDEA of a dead soldier, it couldn't possibly be the one who is being buried as they speak!

Now that IS attacking an idea, but I must say that yes, PETA goes way too overboard on tons of occasions and there should be a law to limit that as well.

Exactly. Although I've never seen PETA go overboard. They can be fanatically, but I've never seen them picket a funeral.
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#70 Old 04-09-2011, 09:36 AM
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It's meant as a personal attack at funerals. It's not a coincidence that the picketers show up. HUGE difference between picketing a funeral (where people are suffering from mental anguish) and just some random event. Who the hell pickets a funeral? They're picketing a dead person (try to get them to change?) and bullying their family, that's all they're doing.

I've never seen AR people picket a funeral and when they do, I will personally fight against them. Plus, Meat is Murder isn't hateful like "God Hates Fags." Maybe a law protecting funerals from picketers would solve the issue I have.

Yeah, I mean, meat is murder is not as much a personal attack as it is an attempt to get omnivores to think differently. No omnivore is going to commit suicide because they saw a sign about Meat is Murder. They either take it to heart and realize that they should think more about vegetarianism, or they shrug it off with their own denial. No omnivore goes home and weeps about seeing crazy PETA protesters at a local steakhouse. However, if you are grieving over a lost loved one, and some a$$holes come up and start attacking your memory of them, and there's nothing you can do to stop them, you're not gonna just shrug it off.

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#71 Old 04-09-2011, 09:38 AM
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How do you suggest we deal with it? How do we make these people stop picketing funerals?

We could always implement a law against picketing funerals, but gee, we'd apparently be taking away the freedom of speech.

I mean, what is the need to picket funerals? I wouldn't picket anyone's funeral regardless of who they were, especially if their sensitive and grieving family is there.

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#72 Old 04-09-2011, 09:41 AM
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Yeah, I mean, meat is murder is not as much a personal attack as it is an attempt to get omnivores to think differently. No omnivore is going to commit suicide because they saw a sign about Meat is Murder. They either take it to heart and realize that they should think more about vegetarianism, or they shrug it off with their own denial. No omnivore goes home and weeps about seeing crazy PETA protesters at a local steakhouse. However, if you are grieving over a lost loved one, and some a$$holes come up and start attacking your memory of them, and there's nothing you can do to stop them, you're not gonna just shrug it off.

Meat is Murder isn't really a hateful statement either. As River said, it's an idea, not attacking a group of people using hateful slurs. All they want is attention.




"Soldier's Die, God Laughs," such an appropriate funeral sign.

"Don't worship the dead," they're not believers in Jesus?
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#73 Old 04-09-2011, 09:41 AM
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Okay, so the fact that they wrote on their site "Hey everyone! This little girl is dead! Let's picket her funeral with statements that are directed TOWARDS her FAMILY!" is attacking a general idea? Not a specific person and family? Or "Thank God for another dead soldier!" at a soldier's funeral? Oh, they must be referring to the IDEA of a dead soldier, it couldn't possibly be the one who is being buried as they speak!

Now that IS attacking an idea, but I must say that yes, PETA goes way too overboard on tons of occasions and there should be a law to limit that as well.


Actually, yes they are picketing an idea. They believe that G-d hates gay people and soliders. So they picket places where they know they'll get attention.


Are you forgetting there is a freedom of peaceable protest? Freedom of press? We are the country of unpopular ideas where people have the right to say them, I think it's a sick and twisted thought to put limits on that for a moment.

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#74 Old 04-09-2011, 09:42 AM
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We could always implement a law against picketing funerals, but gee, we'd apparently be taking away the freedom of speech.

I mean, what is the need to picket funerals? I wouldn't picket anyone's funeral regardless of who they were, especially if their sensitive and grieving family is there.

I think they're required to be a few blocks away or something, they did put a limit on it if i remember right, but i could be wrong.

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#75 Old 04-09-2011, 09:43 AM
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Don't laws protect against child abuse?

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#76 Old 04-09-2011, 09:43 AM
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#77 Old 04-09-2011, 09:44 AM
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Actually, yes they are picketing an idea. They believe that G-d hates gay people and soliders. So they picket places where they know they'll get attention.


Are you forgetting there is a freedom of peaceable protest? Freedom of press? We are the country of unpopular ideas where people have the right to say them, I think it's a sick and twisted thought to put limits on that for a moment.

Sick? Twisted? To put a limit on THIS? If something is sick and twisted there is no reason not to put a limit on it.

And unpopular ideas my donkey-mule hybrid. You realize how many gay slurs there are? You realize that I am one of the few people I know who don't use them on a regular basis? Even people who should know better, like teachers? And do you think that WBC is HELPING to get rid of this?

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#78 Old 04-09-2011, 09:45 AM
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Don't laws protect against child abuse?

Except, that's not child abuse. Should kids be kept away from pro-choise protests as well?

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#79 Old 04-09-2011, 09:46 AM
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Sick? Twisted? To put a limit on THIS? If something is sick and twisted there is no reason not to put a limit on it.

And unpopular ideas my donkey-mule hybrid. You realize how many gay slurs there are? You realize that I am one of the few people I know who don't use them on a regular basis? Even people who should know better, like teachers? And do you think that WBC is HELPING to get rid of this?

What does you not saying slurs have to do with anything?

And no, they're not helping anything they're crazy as hell, but they have the right to be that way.

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#80 Old 04-09-2011, 09:48 AM
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Actually, yes they are picketing an idea. They believe that G-d hates gay people and soliders. So they picket places where they know they'll get attention.

that may be their reason for doing it, but in practice they are picking on individuals.

I might hate people who wear aftershave, and start shouting around someone who uses it, to get publicity, but it would still be an attack on that individual.

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#81 Old 04-09-2011, 09:48 AM
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What does you not saying slurs have to do with anything?

The slurs have to do with the fact that these people march around saying them all day, and you claimed it was an unpopular idea. I was simply pointing out that this is not an unpopular idea and therefore huge supporters of it should be canned before they can cause more trouble.

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And no, they're not helping anything they're crazy as hell

Well at least we agree on something

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#82 Old 04-09-2011, 09:48 AM
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Except, that's not child abuse. Should kids be kept away from pro-choise protests as well?

Yes.
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#83 Old 04-09-2011, 09:53 AM
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The slurs have to do with the fact that these people march around saying them all day, and you claimed it was an unpopular idea. I was simply pointing out that this is not an unpopular idea and therefore huge supporters of it should be canned before they can cause more trouble.
Well at least we agree on something

It's hard to argue that they're not crazy as hell

Its *generally* an unpopular idea what they do, and they're slogans. I've never been around people that use slurs regularly, so in my life that's not popular or common.


@Heather, ah see I disagree. I think those experiences can be good for kids. And fun. Like the big Planned Parenthood gathering a couple weeks ago, that was tons of fun.

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#84 Old 04-09-2011, 09:56 AM
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It's hard to argue that they're not crazy as hell

Very true.

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Its *generally* an unpopular idea what they do, and they're slogans. I've never been around people that use slurs regularly, so in my life that's not popular or common.

Wow, that is really weird. Where I live even the adults say "That's so gay, man." or "Quit being such a fag." Then again, "retarded" is also common over here.

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#85 Old 04-09-2011, 09:57 AM
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Very true.



Wow, that is really weird. Where I live even the adults say "That's so gay, man." or "Quit being such a fag."

Ah, yea I've never been around that.

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#86 Old 04-09-2011, 09:58 AM
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Should kids be kept away from pro-choise protests as well?

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Yes.

+1.

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@Heather, ah see I disagree. I think those experiences can be good for kids. And fun. Like the big Planned Parenthood gathering a couple weeks ago, that was tons of fun.

IMO, kids should be kept away from ALL protests, especially if there's a chance it could turn very violent. Most protests are hardly ever entirely "peaceful".
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#87 Old 04-09-2011, 10:01 AM
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Ah, yea I've never been around that.

I want to live in your town/city!!!
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#88 Old 04-09-2011, 10:39 AM
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IMO, kids should be kept away from ALL protests, especially if there's a chance it could turn very violent. Most protests are hardly ever entirely "peaceful".

That's how I see it. It's putting a child in harms way and kids don't need to be involved.
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#89 Old 04-09-2011, 10:44 AM
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I don't think we necessarily need to criminalize what Westboro's doing - we just need to de-criminalize what anyone might do to them in response. I'd be perfectly fine with that.
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#90 Old 04-09-2011, 11:13 AM
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Okay, how about this. A psychotic shooter kills your 9-year-old daughter. At her funeral, there are people standing outside saying that your daughter DESERVED to die, and that they thank God wholeheartedly for her death. Not only will they not leave, but even public officials can't do anything about it because they have the right to sit there and mock your child even after she is gone.

Try walking away and ignoring that.

Or how about you are a homosexual, you are at the proudest time of your life, and you and your partner are walking past a place and all these picketing freaks are shouting, screaming in your face that you are inferior, and telling you that just because you are who you are you will end up in a place full of fire and lava and dung.

That is more of a situation you could walk away from, but it hurts, and it's obvious that it hurts from the huge increase in gay suicides.

I understand where you're going and yes, freedom of speech is amazing, but as MLP said, banning the extreme haters is not going to cause twenty nukes to fall from the sky. It's one thing for a crazy conservative to post a long bumbling rant on his/her blog about how they think so-and-so is going to hell for doing this-and-that, but when you have people abusing their right to say what they want and using it to attack innocent people who then feel ashamed to be alive, it's gone too far.

I just can't see the "beauty" in freedom of speech when it gets to this point.


Much of what you posted is one thing that makes me view it as free speech--but with an important distinction: comments as you mentioned others may make are said to intentionally harm or cause problems with others that they know may result in pain, suffering or death. It's a form of bullying (to an extreme). For that matter, aren't there even cases where people online have tortured/stalked someone, leading to their suicide or other problems?

Like the comment of sticks and stones--words actually hurt more than the others.


Really, there's a difference between someone being able to yell "go to hell" to the president--and someone standing nearby shouting obscenities and name calling to two gay people, or even announcing to the world that they will be protesting a funeral. Yea, maybe they might not see them, but no matter what, the family knows they are (or were) there, and that in itself will distract them.

And really... could a normal person walk into congress and shout "your daughter was a whore" to a congressman whose daughter just died (or was raped, anything really), and not have anything happen to them?
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