Westboro Baptist Church members banned from entering the UK - Page 2 - VeggieBoards
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#31 Old 04-08-2011, 06:03 PM
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OK, quotes from the amendments to the Public Order Act 1986 done as part of the Criminal Justice and Immigration Act 2008.

Section 74 and Schedule 16 amend Part 3A of the Public Order Act 1986 to extend hate crime legislation to cover "hatred against a group of persons defined by reference to sexual orientation (whether towards persons of the same sex, the opposite sex or both)."
To prevent the Act being used to inhibit freedom of speech on the subject of homosexuality, paragraph 14 of Schedule 16 inserts a new section 29JA, entitled "Protection of freedom of expression (sexual orientation)" but sometimes known as the Waddington Amendment (after Lord Waddington who introduced it). It reads:
“\tIn this Part, for the avoidance of doubt, the discussion or criticism of sexual conduct or practices or the urging of persons to refrain from or modify such conduct or practices shall not be taken of itself to be threatening or intended to stir up hatred.[6]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimina...08#Hate_crimes

So you can go around telling homosexuals that they're wrong/sinful and urge them to change but you can't use sexual orientation to incite hatred.

Have a read of this: http://www.justice.gov.uk/publicatio...-up-hatred.pdf


Edit:

Definition of hate incident (in terms of this thread):

“Any non-crime incident which is
perceived, by the victim or any other
person, to be motivated by a hostility
or prejudice based on a person’s
sexual orientation or perceived
sexual orientation"

Definition of hate crime:

“Any criminal offence which is
perceived, by the victim or any other
person, to be motivated by a hostility
or prejudice based on a person’s
sexual orientation or perceived
sexual orientation"

http://www.report-it.org.uk/files/ha...efinitions.pdf


But regardless of that, I'm pretty sure they would come under anti-social laws as well...

EDIT:

Yep, they would...

"The Crime and Disorder Act 1998 defines anti-social behaviour as acting in a manner that has "caused or was likely to cause harassment, alarm or distress to one or more persons not of the same household" as the perpetrator."

Harassment, alarm or distress is a statutory offence in England and Wales.
Definition:
The offence is created by section 5 of the Public Order Act 1986:
"(1) A person is guilty of an offence if he:
(a) uses threatening, abusive or insulting words or behaviour, or disorderly behaviour, or
(b) displays any writing, sign or other visible representation which is threatening, abusive or insulting,
within the hearing or sight of a person likely to be caused harassment, alarm or distress thereby."
This offence has the following statutory defences:
(a) The defendant had no reason to believe that there was any person within hearing or sight who was likely to be alarmed or distressed by his action.
(b) The defendant was in a dwelling and had no reason to believe that his behaviour would be seen or heard by any person outside any dwelling.
(c) The conduct was reasonable.


Do I really need to go on?

This thread is about them being refused entry into the UK. Ergo, it's UK laws, not USA laws, that are the reason for this.
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#32 Old 04-08-2011, 06:03 PM
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I would love it if we could do that without it spilling over into whatever the political mood of the day is. You know how it goes here...depending on who is in office and what they are in the mood to define as 'hate speech'.

I know it's a fine line between hate speech and freedom of speech. I admit that I'm not big on politics (so I don't know exactly how this would work), but it would be nice to see laws changed to include what these people are doing and make it a crime. It's the funerals part that gets me the most. These people are cruel, heartless, bullies that should be stopped. I don't see how this isn't a crime already, seems like harassment and flat out bullying. I think most Americans would support a law against protesting funerals.
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#33 Old 04-08-2011, 06:21 PM
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They weren't refused entry for being Christian, it was for inciting and spreading hatred.

I was referring to the comments that they should be barred from America

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#34 Old 04-08-2011, 06:24 PM
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I know it's a fine line between hate speech and freedom of speech. I admit that I'm not big on politics (so I don't know exactly how this would work), but it would be nice to see laws changed to include what these people are doing and make it a crime. It's the funerals part that gets me the most. These people are cruel, heartless, bullies that should be stopped. I don't see how this isn't a crime already, seems like harassment and flat out bullying. I think most Americans would support a law against protesting funerals.

Except they're not really protesting the funerals, they're protesting a way of life, and they are doing it at a place to get attention.

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#35 Old 04-08-2011, 06:24 PM
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If only there was a way we could get (and keep) them out of the US now....

I speaking to this in the OP.
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#36 Old 04-08-2011, 06:30 PM
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Except they're not really protesting the funerals, they're protesting a way of life, and they are doing it at a place to get attention.

That's exactly what they're doing, they even announce when they're going to be there. Signs that say "Pray For More Dead Soldiers" sounds like they're talking directly about the funeral.

In this press release, they even flat out said they were picketing funerals:





They're sick, sick people.
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#37 Old 04-08-2011, 06:32 PM
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They're sick, sick people.

I can't argue that, I'm just saying they have the right to be sick, sick people.

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#38 Old 04-08-2011, 06:33 PM
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I can't argue that, I'm just saying they have the right to be sick, sick people.

They shouldn't have the right to bully though, that's what I'm saying.
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#39 Old 04-08-2011, 07:33 PM
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For arguments sake, define bullying.

And for the record, I am not trying to defend their actions.
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#40 Old 04-08-2011, 07:48 PM
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I would love it if we could do that without it spilling over into whatever the political mood of the day is. You know how it goes here...depending on who is in office and what they are in the mood to define as 'hate speech'.

That's part of the problem.

The other part would be more with anti-semitism, which tends to run off the whole "Jews control the world" conspiracy. I fear that conspiracy would be reinforced if it was illegal to engage in anti-semitic speech.
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#41 Old 04-08-2011, 08:06 PM
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For arguments sake, define bullying.

And for the record, I am not trying to defend their actions.

If you don't see how this is bullying, then you have never been discriminated against or even bullied in the least.

These are heartless sickos, they need to be put in a mental institution, think about it. If you were talking with your friend about a shooting where many people died and they told you that they were glad for it, because God told them so, you'd probably think they were insane, literally.

They should either be put in intensive mental health care or kicked out of the country and be forced to live somewhere else where they can spread their trolling to people who will have the right to beat the snot out of them.

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#42 Old 04-08-2011, 08:37 PM
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If you don't see how this is bullying, then you have never been discriminated against or even bullied in the least.

These are heartless sickos, they need to be put in a mental institution, think about it. If you were talking with your friend about a shooting where many people died and they told you that they were glad for it, because God told them so, you'd probably think they were insane, literally.

They should either be put in intensive mental health care or kicked out of the country and be forced to live somewhere else where they can spread their trolling to people who will have the right to beat the snot out of them.

No, they shouldn't. People are ALLOWED to be insane, they are ALLOWED to say what they want, the right be be an ******* shouldn't be changed, ever.

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#43 Old 04-08-2011, 08:43 PM
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I'm with River on this one all the way. Yes, they are psychotic/awful/f-tards...but they have a RIGHT to be and SAY what they want...just as much as WE as vegetarians/vegans have a right to do the same. Welcome to America folks....if we keep crying each time someone calls another person a "doo-doo head" then we will eventually lose the right to SAY that word. It's getting to where people are trying to dictate what we can/cannot say because someone's feelings might be hurt. You know what, stand up, pull up your pants and WALK AWAY/IGNORE THEM, but somewhere TRY to see the beauty in being able to live in a place to where we can SAY what we want.
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#44 Old 04-08-2011, 08:44 PM
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I'm with River on this one all the way. Yes, they are psychotic/awful/f-tards...but they have a RIGHT to be and SAY what they want...just as much as WE as vegetarians/vegans have a right to do the same. Welcome to America folks....if we keep crying each time someone calls another person a "doo-doo head" then we will eventually lose the right to SAY that word. It's getting to where people are trying to dictate what we can/cannot say because someone's feelings might be hurt. You know what, stand up, pull up your pants and WALK AWAY/IGNORE THEM, but somewhere TRY to see the beauty in being able to live in a place to where we can SAY what we want.

You say that so much less confrontationally than me, Thank you!

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#45 Old 04-08-2011, 08:47 PM
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You say that so much less confrontationally than me, Thank you!

LOL thanks! I wasn't always this way...I used to be the one fighting with people like that. Now I see that it doesn't do any good to get angry. They have the right to be that way, so let em. Not my problem if they want to act like fools, lol.
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#46 Old 04-08-2011, 09:26 PM
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If you don't see how this is bullying, then you have never been discriminated against or even bullied in the least.

These are heartless sickos, they need to be put in a mental institution, think about it. If you were talking with your friend about a shooting where many people died and they told you that they were glad for it, because God told them so, you'd probably think they were insane, literally.

They should either be put in intensive mental health care or kicked out of the country and be forced to live somewhere else where they can spread their trolling to people who will have the right to beat the snot out of them.

We have to have a place to start...if we are going to make 'bullying' illegal, we have to define bullying. Otherwise I am going to say that mlp is a bully because I do not like what she says and it makes me feel bad and I feel intimidated and I feel threatened.

We should arrest her.
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#47 Old 04-08-2011, 09:33 PM
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For arguments sake, define bullying.

And for the record, I am not trying to defend their actions.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bullying

I'm just wondering if things would change if these people pushed a homosexual individual over the edge and they committed suicide. Remember the Mom and daughter who cyber bullied the young teen (Megan Meier)? They were responsible for her death, but laws weren't in place yet for cyber bullying and they didn't receive the punishment they deserved. I like that some states are taking action by passing laws. Holding up signs about wishing death on individuals and using homosexual slurs are both forms of bullying. This group goes out of their way to be offensive and hurt people, that's a bully.
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#48 Old 04-08-2011, 09:43 PM
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We have to have a place to start...if we are going to make 'bullying' illegal, we have to define bullying. Otherwise I am going to say that mlp is a bully because I do not like what she says and it makes me feel bad and I feel intimidated and I feel threatened.

Ah, sweet success!

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We should arrest her.


Probably.
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#49 Old 04-08-2011, 09:44 PM
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bullying

I'm just wondering if things would change if these people pushed a homosexual individual over the edge and they committed suicide. Remember the Mom and daughter who cyber bullied the young teen (Megan Meier)? They were responsible for her death, but laws weren't in place yet for cyber bullying and they didn't receive the punishment they deserved. I like that some states are taking action by passing laws. Holding up signs about wishing death on individuals and using homosexual slurs are both forms of bullying. This group goes out of their way to be offensive and hurt people, that's a bully.

They go out of their way to get attention to their beliefs. The way to combat hate speech is not to make it Illegal, because for one, that is impeding our rights and human beings and that line should NEVER be crossed, but instead combat it with the same thing they're using. SPEECH.

What's next? Pro-Choice people for being too loud about killing fetuses? Or, Veg*ns for shouting about abused animals? What about us pesky bicylists who won't shut up about wanting our damned bike lanes? I think that town, in Japan, Taiji, they deserved what they got. Should I be arrested? When you draw the line at silly christians, you dry the line at white supremacists, at Pro-choice, and veg*ns because once that line is made, it's easier and easier to push to new boundaries depending on who is making the laws. Right now, acceptance of gay-marriage is supported by slightly over half the populated, compared to not so many moons ago where it wasn't accepted at all. You have every celebrity under the sign going on about how bullying is bad. Should they be shut up for being hateful to bullies? What about those AR people that picket science labs and universities that test on animals, or make-up companies. Should they be stifled as well, for going to places where their ideas would get the most attention? All groups, no matter how hateful, loving, insane, peaceful, or just plain silly deserve their right. We are ALL sentient beings and can make up our own minds.

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#50 Old 04-08-2011, 09:48 PM
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That argument would be a lot more compelling if there weren't countries who do manage to place limits on hate speech without everything going to hell the way so many in the U.S. envisage.
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#52 Old 04-08-2011, 09:55 PM
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That argument would be a lot more compelling if there weren't countries who do manage to place limits on hate speech without everything going to hell the way so many in the U.S. envisage.

You're right. In libya, you weren't allowed to say hateful things about the government. Or in Egypt. G-d forbid you say hateful things about the current regimes in Sudan or Darfur.

And, hate crimes are rising in much of Canada, I'm not sure about the UK, however so let's google it.
"Is Britain the most hostile country in the Western world? That is the implication from new figures out this month from the OCSE (Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe) which puts the UK top of a world league table for reported hate crimes with 46,300 logged in 2008."
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/8378817.stm
Okay, so that country which has "harsher" laws on hate, is having just as hard, if not a harder time.

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River puts it well. What happens when a vegan protest with signs like "meat is murder" is affected by the same laws?

I mean, calling people murderers is pretty dang strong speech.
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#54 Old 04-08-2011, 10:01 PM
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You're right. In libya, you weren't allowed to say hateful things about the government. Or in Egypt. G-d forbid you say hateful things about the current regimes in Sudan or Darfur.

And, hate crimes are rising in much of Canada, I'm not sure about the UK, however so let's google it.
"Is Britain the most hostile country in the Western world? That is the implication from new figures out this month from the OCSE (Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe) which puts the UK top of a world league table for reported hate crimes with 46,300 logged in 2008."
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/8378817.stm
Okay, so that country which has "harsher" laws on hate, is having just as hard, if not a harder time.

Well, it stands to reason that a country that recognizes that hate crimes exist would have more such crimes reported than a country which recognizes them in only extremely limited circumstances, if at all. No surprise there - it's the same thing as there being no homosexuals in Iran. If you simply don't recognize their existence, there are none.

I mean, Germany outlawed the Nazi party after WWII, and the world hasn't come to an end.

Americans tend to have such all or nothing views on many things - it's kind of an interesting phenomenon.
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#56 Old 04-09-2011, 07:00 AM
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I'm with River on this one all the way. Yes, they are psychotic/awful/f-tards...but they have a RIGHT to be and SAY what they want...just as much as WE as vegetarians/vegans have a right to do the same. Welcome to America folks....if we keep crying each time someone calls another person a "doo-doo head" then we will eventually lose the right to SAY that word. It's getting to where people are trying to dictate what we can/cannot say because someone's feelings might be hurt. You know what, stand up, pull up your pants and WALK AWAY/IGNORE THEM, but somewhere TRY to see the beauty in being able to live in a place to where we can SAY what we want.

Okay, how about this. A psychotic shooter kills your 9-year-old daughter. At her funeral, there are people standing outside saying that your daughter DESERVED to die, and that they thank God wholeheartedly for her death. Not only will they not leave, but even public officials can't do anything about it because they have the right to sit there and mock your child even after she is gone.

Try walking away and ignoring that.

Or how about you are a homosexual, you are at the proudest time of your life, and you and your partner are walking past a place and all these picketing freaks are shouting, screaming in your face that you are inferior, and telling you that just because you are who you are you will end up in a place full of fire and lava and dung.

That is more of a situation you could walk away from, but it hurts, and it's obvious that it hurts from the huge increase in gay suicides.

I understand where you're going and yes, freedom of speech is amazing, but as MLP said, banning the extreme haters is not going to cause twenty nukes to fall from the sky. It's one thing for a crazy conservative to post a long bumbling rant on his/her blog about how they think so-and-so is going to hell for doing this-and-that, but when you have people abusing their right to say what they want and using it to attack innocent people who then feel ashamed to be alive, it's gone too far.

I just can't see the "beauty" in freedom of speech when it gets to this point.

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#57 Old 04-09-2011, 07:38 AM
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Okay, how about this. A psychotic shooter kills your 9-year-old daughter. At her funeral, there are people standing outside saying that your daughter DESERVED to die, and that they thank God wholeheartedly for her death. Not only will they not leave, but even public officials can't do anything about it because they have the right to sit there and mock your child even after she is gone.

Try walking away and ignoring that.

Or how about you are a homosexual, you are at the proudest time of your life, and you and your partner are walking past a place and all these picketing freaks are shouting, screaming in your face that you are inferior, and telling you that just because you are who you are you will end up in a place full of fire and lava and dung.

That is more of a situation you could walk away from, but it hurts, and it's obvious that it hurts from the huge increase in gay suicides.

I understand where you're going and yes, freedom of speech is amazing, but as MLP said, banning the extreme haters is not going to cause twenty nukes to fall from the sky. It's one thing for a crazy conservative to post a long bumbling rant on his/her blog about how they think so-and-so is going to hell for doing this-and-that, but when you have people abusing their right to say what they want and using it to attack innocent people who then feel ashamed to be alive, it's gone too far.

I just can't see the "beauty" in freedom of speech when it gets to this point.

Even in those situations, they have NOT commited ANY crime. Until they actually hurt someone physically it is NOT a crime.

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#58 Old 04-09-2011, 08:33 AM
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Even in those situations, they have NOT commited ANY crime. Until they actually hurt someone physically it is NOT a crime.

Does that mean it shouldn't be a crime?

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#59 Old 04-09-2011, 08:51 AM
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Does that mean it shouldn't be a crime?

I really don't think it should, for reasons I have already stated.


Methinks we should agree to disagree, as this is a wholly opinion debate, and no one's going to change their position :P

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#60 Old 04-09-2011, 08:54 AM
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Does that mean it shouldn't be a crime?

Yes, it absolutely should not be considered a crime. I really truly do not understand allowing ourselves to give so much power to a bunch of loudmouth cretins protesting a loved one's funeral that we actually take on board the ridiculous things they are saying and allow them to increase our grief. I've lost loved ones. I still grieve, decades later. But I simply can't imagine any other reaction to people doing stuff like this than completely ignoring them. Or possibly laughing at them.

But to allow them so much power over you that you would consider endangering everyone's freedom of speech just to shut them up? I think that almost as crazy as the Phelps are. They need to be shunned and ignored, not to go down in history as the people who set the precedent for the USA to negate the First Amendment of our Constitution.

People want to criminalize what the Phelps are saying because they don't want to hear it. Once we go there, who's next on the chopping block? America doesn't like vegetarians, vegans, animal rights advocates, atheists, socialists, and on and on. If you don't want to hear what someone has to say, take their power to upset you away from them by learning to ignore them. Don't make their speech a crime. Unless you want to set up martyrs history will never forget. I don't think the Westboro Baptist Church deserves that kind of recognition.

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