American missionaries kidnapped - should we rescue them? - Page 3 - VeggieBoards
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#61 Old 02-23-2011, 01:58 PM
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Hold this thought. i have to go to the store and restock my popcorn now.


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#62 Old 02-23-2011, 02:28 PM
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Unless they're a fireman in Tennessee?

'cause you had kinda the opposite opinion a while back.

Not to speak for mlp, but I think she is consistent in that she thinks everyone ought to be rescued, even when they do stupid things. I think she means morally you're not really in the right to risk someone else, not that society ought not to rescue you.

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#63 Old 02-23-2011, 02:38 PM
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Not to speak for mlp, but I think she is consistent in that she thinks everyone ought to be rescued, even when they do stupid things. I think she means morally you're not really in the right to risk someone else, not that society ought not to rescue you.

This. I probably wouldn't have been quite as well spoken about it.

Shucks - everyone is going to have to put away their popcorn, unless Red comes back for another try.
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#64 Old 02-23-2011, 07:29 PM
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I created a thread awhile back about a rape victim who was forced to apologize to her church.

The thread turned into a discussion about victim's and their responsibility to avoid being a victim.

I mentioned that I tend to take avoid some routes or times that I considered more conductive to me being a victim.

And I was flamed to hell and back for blaming rape on women.

Now, we have a thread on missionaries, and there are a lot of posters saying that they were dumb and should have seen this coming.

I guess empathizing with a woman is easy. Empathizing with some rich seniors sailing around the world is not.

Well, I guess blaming the victim is appropriate, if we disagree with what the victim was doing.
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#65 Old 02-23-2011, 07:36 PM
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I see this akin as someone deciding to climb Mount Everest, not someone walking home.

If someone wants to climb Mount Everest and gets stranded in a sudden storm and dies, I think it's unfortunate, but it's a risk they took to do something they enjoy doing, no matter (or maybe because of) the risk involved.

Sorry you can't see the distinction between engaging in the ordinary and/or necessary activities of life and embarking on a risky venture for the sheer hell of it.
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#66 Old 02-23-2011, 07:40 PM
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Originally Posted by das_nut View Post

I created a thread awhile back about a rape victim who was forced to apologize to her church.

The thread turned into a discussion about victim's and their responsibility to avoid being a victim.

I mentioned that I tend to take avoid some routes or times that I considered more conductive to me being a victim.

And I was flamed to hell and back for blaming rape on women.

Now, we have a thread on missionaries, and there are a lot of posters saying that they were dumb and should have seen this coming.

I guess empathizing with a woman is easy. Empathizing with some rich seniors sailing around the world is not.

Well, I guess blaming the victim is appropriate, if we disagree with what the victim was doing.


true that

and women not always get raped by simply going home. going to a club is not a necessity. being in abusive relationship os "her own decision"
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#67 Old 02-23-2011, 07:40 PM
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Sorry you can't see the distinction between engaging in the ordinary and/or necessary activities of life and embarking on a risky venture for the sheer hell of it.

No. Not for the 'sheer hell of it', for JESUS, to AVOID hell!

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#68 Old 02-23-2011, 07:50 PM
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Eh, I think that passing out Bibles is beside the point; if their real purpose was to pass out Bibles, they could have done it much more efficiently by shipping them all over. I think they loved sailing, and wanted an excuse. (And BTW, I can understand the urge to just sail around the world - it's something I would enjoy myself.)
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#69 Old 02-23-2011, 07:53 PM
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No. Not for the 'sheer hell of it', for JESUS, to AVOID hell!

Maybe they sincerely wanted to help people, build relationships, that sort of thing. Maybe they sailed toward the pirates hoping for an opportunity to reach the pirates and bring the pirates closer to God. Stranger things have happened.

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#70 Old 02-23-2011, 07:54 PM
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true that

being in abusive relationship os "her own decision"


It's attitudes like this that make it even harder for people to acknowledge abuse and walk away from abusive relationships.
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#71 Old 02-23-2011, 08:00 PM
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It's attitudes like this that make it even harder for people to acknowledge abuse and walk away from abusive relationships.

exactly. the attitudes that it is the victim's fault are never a good thing
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#72 Old 02-23-2011, 08:09 PM
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exactly. the attitudes that it is the victim's fault are never a good thing

Not saying "fault" - I'm talking about assumption of risk. So, if someone chooses to climb Mount Everest and dies as a result - you see that as no different from someone being killed by a drunk driver?
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#73 Old 02-23-2011, 08:14 PM
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It was an insane place to be in a boat, why didnt they just fly to Africa and visit certain places? Why a boat and why did they go to where there were pirates?

But having said that I am sorry that they didnt make it away safely .
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#74 Old 02-23-2011, 08:27 PM
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I find it admirable when people don't stick to norms of society and do things like sailing to Africa or climbing mountains. i don't think only the boring ones should be either felt bad for or rescued.

i also think it is what they die and how old they are. i mean not many people wanted that 15 year old that went sailing around the world and got lost in the storm to not be rescued. i am sure such a difference is just because of the age
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#75 Old 02-23-2011, 08:36 PM
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I'm not saying to not rescue. My issue is with undertaking risky activity and not thinking through the possible consequences to others. Nobody else should have to pay with their lives because I did something risky and needed to be rescued.

I actually was considerably more irritated by the situation with the girl you just mentioned. That was a matter of ego - wanting to set a record as the youngest to sail around the world. The parents were, IMO, totally irresponsible, and are raising her to be equally self centered and irresponsible, and others pay the price. These people were experienced sailors and at least weren't going solo, which is a huge risk in and of itself.
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#76 Old 02-23-2011, 09:06 PM
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Originally Posted by mlp View Post

I see this akin as someone deciding to climb Mount Everest, not someone walking home.

If someone wants to climb Mount Everest and gets stranded in a sudden storm and dies, I think it's unfortunate, but it's a risk they took to do something they enjoy doing, no matter (or maybe because of) the risk involved.

Sorry you can't see the distinction between engaging in the ordinary and/or necessary activities of life and embarking on a risky venture for the sheer hell of it.

agreeing with this
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#77 Old 02-24-2011, 06:21 AM
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Originally Posted by das_nut View Post

I created a thread awhile back about a rape victim who was forced to apologize to her church.

The thread turned into a discussion about victim's and their responsibility to avoid being a victim.

I mentioned that I tend to take avoid some routes or times that I considered more conductive to me being a victim.

And I was flamed to hell and back for blaming rape on women.

Now, we have a thread on missionaries, and there are a lot of posters saying that they were dumb and should have seen this coming.

I guess empathizing with a woman is easy. Empathizing with some rich seniors sailing around the world is not.

Well, I guess blaming the victim is appropriate, if we disagree with what the victim was doing.

If I had seen the thread I would have been flamed along with you.

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Originally Posted by mlp View Post

I see this akin as someone deciding to climb Mount Everest, not someone walking home.

If someone wants to climb Mount Everest and gets stranded in a sudden storm and dies, I think it's unfortunate, but it's a risk they took to do something they enjoy doing, no matter (or maybe because of) the risk involved.

Sorry you can't see the distinction between engaging in the ordinary and/or necessary activities of life and embarking on a risky venture for the sheer hell of it.

If you die climbing Mt. Everest it is an act of god not an act of terrorism. I would liken it to walking through and unsafe neighborhood at a particularly unsafe time.

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(And BTW, I can understand the urge to just sail around the world - it's something I would enjoy myself.)

Not me. I'm a land lubber.

One point that has not been made is that we do not know what these people knew. Maybe, someone said, "Take this route because it is much safer." Or maybe their navagational equipment had malfunctioned. Who knows? Not that that should make a difference as to whether or not they are helped, but for those who are arguing "stupidity", we just don't know.
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#78 Old 02-24-2011, 09:09 AM
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If you die climbing Mt. Everest it is an act of god not an act of terrorism. I would liken it to walking through and unsafe neighborhood at a particularly unsafe time.

Well, since I don't believe in God, I don't believe in acts of God. So, let's compare it to going to a war zone to go hang gliding - it's not something that is part of normal day to day activity.


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One point that has not been made is that we do not know what these people knew. Maybe, someone said, "Take this route because it is much safer." Or maybe their navigational equipment had malfunctioned. Who knows? Not that that should make a difference as to whether or not they are helped, but for those who are arguing "stupidity", we just don't know.

Actually, we do know - they were in contact with friends. They were well aware that they were in an area with a lot of pirate activity, but they wanted to get to some kind of meetup, and they wouldn't make it in time if they took a more circuitous route to avoid that area. They decided that they were far enough out to make it unlikely that they would be spotted by pirates.
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#79 Old 02-24-2011, 09:44 AM
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Actually, we do know - they were in contact with friends. They were well aware that they were in an area with a lot of pirate activity, but they wanted to get to some kind of meetup, and they wouldn't make it in time if they took a more circuitous route to avoid that area. They decided that they were far enough out to make it unlikely that they would be spotted by pirates.

The news report said that they specifically cut back using radio and satellite systems so their location couldn't be tracked. They split off from their larger group to go there, and knew they were going into dangerous waters.

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#80 Old 02-24-2011, 09:47 AM
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I think blaming women for a sex crime is like blaming black men for getting lynched.

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#81 Old 02-24-2011, 11:19 AM
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Well, since I don't believe in God, I don't believe in acts of God. So, let's compare it to going to a war zone to go hang gliding - it's not something that is part of normal day to day activity.

I don't believe in God either. I was making a point

So what about the hikers in Iran? Would you send help for them?


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Actually, we do know - they were in contact with friends. They were well aware that they were in an area with a lot of pirate activity, but they wanted to get to some kind of meetup, and they wouldn't make it in time if they took a more circuitous route to avoid that area. They decided that they were far enough out to make it unlikely that they would be spotted by pirates.

If they thought that, then, perhaps, they thought they were in safe waters?

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The news report said that they specifically cut back using radio and satellite systems so their location couldn't be tracked. They split off from their larger group to go there, and knew they were going into dangerous waters.

If it is this, I think we should have still rescued them as I stated earlier.

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I think blaming women for a sex crime is like blaming black men for getting lynched.

No one has blamed women for sex crimes.
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#82 Old 02-24-2011, 11:24 AM
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I find it admirable when people don't stick to norms of society and do things like sailing to Africa or climbing mountains. i don't think only the boring ones should be either felt bad for or rescued.

i also think it is what they die and how old they are. i mean not many people wanted that 15 year old that went sailing around the world and got lost in the storm to not be rescued. i am sure such a difference is just because of the age

I was actually very angry when I read about those parents. You dont deserve a beautiful teenage daughter if you send her out by herself into such a dangerous, potentially fatal situation, just to get a "world record". And they ended up costing their government a lot of money which could have been used for healthcare or people living in poverty.
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#83 Old 02-24-2011, 11:48 AM
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I can't stand missionaries and think they should stay at home, but these are still human beings so they should be rescued. I think the experience they will have had will be enough to stop them from doing something so stupid next time.
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#84 Old 02-24-2011, 12:26 PM
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I can't stand missionaries and think they should stay at home, but these are still human beings so they should be rescued. I think the experience they will have had will be enough to stop them from doing something so stupid next time.

I'm pretty sure they won't be doing something like that again.

The bigger question is if it will deter others.

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#85 Old 02-24-2011, 12:39 PM
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If racism is to hate others based on their race, what is the equivalent to hate on someone based on their religion?

Predjudice? Hate Speech? Hmmmmm.... maybe because there isn't a big bad term for it, it's okay.

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#86 Old 02-24-2011, 01:04 PM
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If racism is to hate others based on their race, what is the equivalent to hate on someone based on their religion?

Predjudice? Hate Speech? Hmmmmm.... maybe because there isn't a big bad term for it, it's okay.

There's a difference between a feature of birth and a belief system.

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#87 Old 02-24-2011, 01:18 PM
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No one has blamed women for sex crimes.

Yeah, that never happens. Except for that one time. When was that? Oh yeah. Today. http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/bre...116801578.html
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#88 Old 02-24-2011, 02:00 PM
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Yeah, that never happens. Except for that one time. When was that? Oh yeah. Today. http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/bre...116801578.html

That story reminded me of this thread.
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#89 Old 02-24-2011, 02:00 PM
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Yeah, that never happens. Except for that one time. When was that? Oh yeah. Today. http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/bre...116801578.html

You know, did it occur to you that possibly I might just refering to this board? And if I am unclear, maybe you could just ask rather than make that assumption?

If you are going to be snarky, I am not going to your posts any longer.
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#90 Old 02-24-2011, 03:59 PM
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So what about the hikers in Iran? Would you send help for them?

I would have sent help for the four who were just killed, and I would want our government to negotiate for the hikers in Iran.

The point I have been making is that it is not laudable to engage in dangerous activity and then expect others to risk their lives for you if you run into trouble. Nothing laudable and nothing particularly ethical. Further, if you take risks because it's something that gives you pleasure, I will regret it if you end up getting killed, but I won't feel as sorry for you as I would if you ended up being killed in other circumstances.

And if you engage in particularly hazardous activity simply because you enjoy it and don't weigh the potential consequences, and then someone has to sacrifice his own life to get you into the mess into which you dove headfirst, I hope that you at least have the grace to acknowledge that your thoughtlessness cost someone else his life.

None of that has anything to do with whether we rescue people who made bad decisions.
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