South Dakota moves to legalize the killing of abortion providers - VeggieBoards
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#1 Old 02-15-2011, 09:37 AM
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#2 Old 02-15-2011, 10:26 AM
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I don't believe that will ever pass. They haven't managed to ban abortion, so I can't see it getting very far.

Unbelievably disgusting that someone would even propose that.
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#3 Old 02-15-2011, 10:47 AM
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Better to amend the federal Constitution to expand United States citizenship to include the unborn, which it currently doesn't, thanks to a loophole in wording. As long as the law considers the unborn to be less than citizens, irresponsible sexuality and procreation- including rape- will be regarded as a frivolity, with no legal ramifications to consider. As long as there's no clearly defined legal status for the unborn, no one bears any responsibility for them. But we should, one way or the other.

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#4 Old 02-15-2011, 01:44 PM
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As long as the law considers the unborn to be less than citizens, irresponsible sexuality and procreation- including rape- will be regarded as a frivolity, with no legal ramifications to consider.

Rape is already illegal. HTH
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#5 Old 02-15-2011, 02:04 PM
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"We're pro life and we'll kill anyone who disagrees!"

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#6 Old 02-15-2011, 02:27 PM
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"We're pro life and we'll kill anyone who disagrees!"

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Eye-for-an-eye?? That's not very Christian now, is it?

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#7 Old 02-15-2011, 04:59 PM
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Even if we accept their claim that this won't actually legalize the killing of abortion doctors, do they seriously think that there won't be people crazed enough to think that it does and exercise their new 'legal right'?
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#8 Old 02-15-2011, 07:53 PM
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If people are crazed enough to do so, even though that isn't the intent or legal interpretation of the law, should Mother Jones be held legally liable if some nut hears about it from MJ?
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#9 Old 02-15-2011, 08:02 PM
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"We're pro life and we'll kill anyone who disagrees!"

:P

Logic

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#10 Old 02-15-2011, 08:15 PM
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Rape is already illegal. HTH

As long as rape is considered not to extend beyond the act of sexuality, that is, to include parental responsibility, it will not be taken as seriously as it should be and will be regarded as a minor crime with relatively minor consequences for the perpetrator. As long as fetuses are regarded as throwaway objects, for which no one bears responsibility, sex and conception will not be taken as seriously as they should be, and irresponsible sexual activity will be encouraged. I think if people actually had to be responsible for what they do, there would be fewer unwanted pregnancies, by far.

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#11 Old 02-15-2011, 08:18 PM
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o.O While being pro-life myself, I certainly wouldn't murder someone else to prevent an abortion. It's just trading one life for another and one killer for another. Kinda daft.

Disclaimer: I'm insane.
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#12 Old 02-15-2011, 08:42 PM
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As long as rape is considered not to extend beyond the act of sexuality, that is, to include parental responsibility, it will not be taken as seriously as it should be and will be regarded as a minor crime with relatively minor consequences for the perpetrator. As long as fetuses are regarded as throwaway objects, for which no one bears responsibility, sex and conception will not be taken as seriously as they should be, and irresponsible sexual activity will be encouraged. I think if people actually had to be responsible for what they do, there would be fewer unwanted pregnancies, by far.

To eliminate rape we need to change the way society and men view women, not to threaten rapists with the possibility of becoming 'parents'. (I put 'parents' in quotes because it seems especially cruel to force a woman not only to keep her rapist's child but to share parental responsibilities with him.) Rape is a crime against women; it has nothing to do with fetuses; the last thing a rapist is thinking about is whether or not his victim is going to have his baby.

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#13 Old 02-15-2011, 10:11 PM
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To eliminate rape we need to change the way society and men view women, not to threaten rapists with the possibility of becoming 'parents'. (I put 'parents' in quotes because it seems especially cruel to force a woman not only to keep her rapist's child but to share parental responsibilities with him.) Rape is a crime against women; it has nothing to do with fetuses; the last thing a rapist is thinking about is whether or not his victim is going to have his baby.

As long as society fails to hold sacred human life, I don't see how any member of society- women included- is going to get much respect. I'm not suggesting a rape victim be forced to marry her rapist or keep his baby. A humane society would protect the woman AND child through the pregnancy, then give her the option of whether she keeps it or not. Considering that the average jail-time served by a convicted rapist in the U.S. is about 5 1/2-years, and considering it takes 18-years to actually raise a child, I say, the law isn't being very serious about sexual criminality.

If men and women want respect, then they must give it, even to the unborn. Until they can, I fail to see how they can expect to have it for themselves.

Pregnancy by rape is certainly a difficult issue, perhaps one of the hardest a conscientious society must face, but in my view, taking responsibility is the answer, not avoiding it, by destroying the child.

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#14 Old 02-15-2011, 10:16 PM
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As long as society fails to hold sacred human life, I don't see how any member of society- women included- is going to get much respect. I'm not suggesting a rape victim be forced to marry her rapist or keep his baby. A humane society would protect the woman AND child through the pregnancy, then give her the option of whether she keeps it or not. Considering that the average jail-time served by a convicted rapist in the U.S. is about 5 1/2-years, and considering it takes 18-years to actually raise a child, I say, the law isn't being very serious about sexual criminality.

If men and women want respect, then they must give it, even to the unborn. Until they can, I fail to see how they can expect to have it for themselves.

Pregnancy by rape is certainly a difficult issue, perhaps one of the hardest a conscientious society must face, but in my view, taking responsibility is the answer, not avoiding it, by destroying the child.

Try telling a rape victim she has to be an incubator for her attacker's seed for 9 months and go through the sickness and emotional trauma and then the agony of a long labour. And what happens to the baby once it's born? Is she then also forced to spend the rest of her life taking care of it? That sounds a lot like punishing the victim to me.

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#15 Old 02-15-2011, 10:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Capstan View Post

As long as society fails to hold sacred human life, I don't see how any member of society- women included- is going to get much respect. I'm not suggesting a rape victim be forced to marry her rapist or keep his baby. A humane society would protect the woman AND child through the pregnancy, then give her the option of whether she keeps it or not. Considering that the average jail-time served by a convicted rapist in the U.S. is about 5 1/2-years, and considering it takes 18-years to actually raise a child, I say, the law isn't being very serious about sexual criminality.

If men and women want respect, then they must give it, even to the unborn. Until they can, I fail to see how they can expect to have it for themselves.

Pregnancy by rape is certainly a difficult issue, perhaps one of the hardest a conscientious society must face, but in my view, taking responsibility is the answer, not avoiding it, by destroying the child.

Do you think that by making inane rhetorical arguments you're actually making an argument? Because you're not.
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#16 Old 02-16-2011, 12:48 AM
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Do you think that by making inane rhetorical arguments you're actually making an argument? Because you're not.

Killing for convenience isn't much of an argument.

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#17 Old 02-16-2011, 01:56 AM
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Killing for convenience isn't much of an argument.

K you get raped and carry the baby to term and then go through the trauma of either giving it up or raise a child who shares half its DNA with your rapist. See how humane that feels.

The law needs to take rape more seriously, that has nothing to do with abortion.
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#18 Old 02-16-2011, 02:29 AM
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As long as rape is considered not to extend beyond the act of sexuality, that is, to include parental responsibility, it will not be taken as seriously as it should be and will be regarded as a minor crime with relatively minor consequences for the perpetrator. As long as fetuses are regarded as throwaway objects, for which no one bears responsibility, sex and conception will not be taken as seriously as they should be, and irresponsible sexual activity will be encouraged. I think if people actually had to be responsible for what they do, there would be fewer unwanted pregnancies, by far.

The rapist does not look at his prey and think, oh if I get an STD or if she gets pregnant, all that can be fixed. A law defining a fetus as a baby will not make the rapist think any differently because rape already is not a sex act but an act of power, control, and domination. Rapists display antisocial tendencies meaning that they have a certain degree of disregard for society's rules to begin with. Someone with that attitude is not going to be persuaded not to rape because a law says something. Not only will that not change the attitudes of rapists but at the same time it is going to take more power away from women regarding the autonomy of their bodies.

When talking about this I always share a story of one of my best friend's from high school. She was 16 and a Christian, she went to Sunday school and was saving herself for marriage. She started dating a "god" Christian boy, her parents loved him since he was a church going boy. After a month of dating sha started to tell me he was putting pressure on her to have sex and she really just did not want to. When I asked her if she would leave him she said that she thinks he has strayed and that she can help him back on the right path. Then she stopped talking about her relationship, a few weeks later I saw bruises on her arms when we went to the beach and she said she bruises easily and just dismissed it. She was pullig away from me and other friends but we dismissed it as her wanting to hang out with her boyfriend, I was so stupid not to see the signs of dating violence. One Sunday she calls me in tears and needs to talk so I meet her at a local Starbucks andget coffee. When she comes n she is crying, panicked so I just hold her. She spends most of our time crying into my shoulder but finally spills that she is preganant. I didn't even know they were having sex, she became that secretive for the months they were dating. Then she told me she told her boyfriend that and he accused her of cheating on him and claimed the baby was not his. She was too scared to go to her parents but did not think abortion was an option because she was Christian. I asked her if she could talk to her pastor or a counselor but she said that her parents would find out. She looked scared. After a few hours I had to leave her and go home. I didn't tell anyone, she went home as well. I thought that once she gets a little settled we could talk about having an abortion or tellig her parents, just just needed some time to calm down. I went to school the next day and she was not there. Right before lunch my parents came to pick me up from school which was really weird and gave me a really bad feeling when I saw them. In the car they told me that she killed herself during the night. I found out later from her parents she mentioned me in her suicide note, the part adressed to me said, "I love you, its not your fault." I had nightmares for years after that. She did not think abortion was a solution but could not handle the fact that she was pregnant and that her boyfriend was suing violence in the dating relationship to force her to do stuff she did not want to. I did a lot of stuff wrong and did not see signs of any of it and still feel guilty 11 years later and still blame myself. But it wasn't my fault, I was 16 and no one taught me signs of dating violence or even about rape other than it can happen to you. Do you think that saying a fetus is a whole person would have stopped that 18 year old boy from abusing her and pressuring her into sex? Do you think it would have stopped his denial that it was his baby? He already aparently knew that a fetus was a human being because of his "good Christian boy" upbringing and he as far as I know never pressured her for an abortion, just denied the baby was his. Know what happened to that boy? He said the child was not his, there realy was no in depth investigation, and even after her death some students were calling her a whore and were convinced she cheated on him. He transferred to another school and as far as I know faced no legal reprocussions for his actions.

Yeah, abortion is not a solution but making abortion feasable and accessable and not stigmatized will temporarily will aleviate the symptoms. Changing the wording won't change the rapists', domestic abusers', dating abusers' minds. But it will even more limit the woman's options.

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#19 Old 02-16-2011, 02:32 AM
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I'm not suggesting a rape victim be forced to marry her rapist or keep his baby. A humane society would protect the woman AND child through the pregnancy, then give her the option of whether she keeps it or not.]

If I had been raped and for some reason could not gain access to the morning after pill or other immediate action and it turned out I was pregnant, and some man tried to tell me that I had no choice in the matter, for the sake of what is presently a clump of cells I have to go from one horrific experience to another- and this one is going to endure for 9 months.

In that situation of some man saying to me "well honey I'm sorry that you were grossly violated, physically, injured, psychologically damaged, but I'm sure you have enough respect for that clump of cells to endure 9 months of hormones, hating yourself, hating the creature inside you because it's part of him, you might puke your guts up, you might get piles, your life could be endangered by pre eclampsia, you will be unable to drink, smoke or take certain medication, this could ruin your relationship with your partner if you have one, and if you currently have children you'll be forced to explain to them why their little brother or sister isn't going to be staying around after it's born, you'll have to take time off work, you'll have people seeing you're pregnant and feeling like you're public property, people will want to touch your stomach, ask you what names you've got planned and when it's due, to whom you'll be forced to recount the traumatic incident or lie, you'll have to go through what will probably be unbearable pain which could last for days, you may have to be sliced open in a delicate area, or even be surgically operated on, and at the end of all that you'll have to look into a little face that's part of you and yet reminds you of disgust, horror and the worst incident of your life, but don't worry we'll 'support' you by whisking him or her away to sell to the highest bidder and you'll never have to worry about him or her again, so you can go home feeling sore, empty, devastated, knowing there is a child walking about somewhere who is yours and feeling guilty and confused, and knowing that 18 years later that child may seek you out and you may have to explain that his or her father was a rapist."

I think I'd be wanting a right to kill the man forcing me to go through 9 months and beyond of absolute Hell, not the abortionist who could potentially save me from it. Actually thats not true, I don't think we should legalise the killing of any born, sentient beings, even someone trying to put a woman through that kind of torture, but I don't think men should have any right to dictate what a woman is forced to do with her body, at any time but especially after rape.
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#20 Old 02-16-2011, 02:58 AM
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In that situation of some man saying to me "well honey I'm sorry that you were grossly violated, physically, injured, psychologically damaged, but I'm sure you have enough respect for that clump of cells to endure 9 months of hormones, hating yourself, hating the creature inside you because it's part of him, you might puke your guts up, you might get piles, your life could be endangered by pre eclampsia, you will be unable to drink, smoke or take certain medication, this could ruin your relationship with your partner if you have one, and if you currently have children you'll be forced to explain to them why their little brother or sister isn't going to be staying around after it's born, you'll have to take time off work, you'll have people seeing your pregnant and feeling like you're public property, people will want to touch your stomach, ask you what names you've got planned and when it's due, to whom you'll be forced to recount the traumatic incident or lie, you'll have to go through what will probably be unbearable pain which could last for days, you may have to be sliced open in a delicate area, or even be surgically operated on, and at the end of all that you'll have to look into a little face that's part of you and yet reminds you of disgust, horror and the worst incident of your life, but don't worry we'll 'support' you by whisking him or her away to sell to the highest bidder and you'll never have to worry about him or her again, so you can go home feeling sore, empty, devastated, knowing there is a child walking about somewhere who is yours and feeling guilty and confused, and knowing that 18 years later that child may seek you out and you may have to explain that his or her father was a rapist."

Yea, better to kill "it". Saves so many problems.
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#21 Old 02-16-2011, 03:27 AM
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Yea, better to kill "it". Saves so many problems.

Well yes, that is indeed quite a long list of problems that lucky_charm listed. Your response, by just ignoring all of that and switching the topic to a possibly non-sentient organism, doesn't seem to go beyond a "sucks to be her, then", in terms of addressing any of those problems, or explaining why someone should endure all of them.

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#22 Old 02-16-2011, 03:28 AM
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Yea, better to kill "it". Saves so many problems.

It is an 'it' while it is a foetus, at least until a certain stage of development its not a he or she. You'll notice I used 'he or she' after birth as at that point there is a legal person. It's not about saving problems, it's about respecting a woman. If you even read my post you'd see that forcing a woman to carry her rapists child to term can be forcing her to go through Hell. Some women (myself included) would probably rather kill themselves than go through this. 'Killing' a clump of cells (early stage foetus) by removing it is no more than killing a tree, neither can be proved to feel pain or suffer or have any feelings at all. A woman by contrast can feel and can suffer. If I was conceived through rape I'd much rather never be born, it must be horrific to learn that your father was a rapist, I'd rather be removed before I can feel anything that grow up to have to suffer through that knowledge.
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#23 Old 02-16-2011, 04:42 AM
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Well yes, that is indeed quite a long list of problems that lucky_charm listed. Your response, by just ignoring all of that and switching the topic to a possibly non-sentient organism, doesn't seem to go beyond a "sucks to be her, then", in terms of addressing any of those problems, or explaining why someone should endure all of them.

It's those possibilities that make life so difficult. Better to take the easier way out. Not that any of this is easy.
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#24 Old 02-16-2011, 05:01 AM
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It's those possibilities that make life so difficult. Better to take the easier way out. Not that any of this is easy.

Well yes, when 'difficult' is an euphemism for significant psychological, social and physical hardships, and 'easy' is avoiding them, then yes, I have no problem with someone taking the easier way (I also have no problem if someone chooses of their own will to endure the difficulties; that's up to them to decide, I'm not them).

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#25 Old 02-16-2011, 05:08 AM
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It's those possibilities that make life so difficult. Better to take the easier way out. Not that any of this is easy.

I don't really know what you mean when you say 'Better to take the easier way out.' I wouldn't presume to know which 'way out' was best for a rape victim, that's for the individual woman who is sadly forced into a horrific situation to decide.
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#26 Old 02-16-2011, 05:14 AM
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If men and women want respect, then they must give it, even to the unborn. Until they can, I fail to see how they can expect to have it for themselves.

Well, sure, easy for you to say. "Respecting the unborn" doesn't require too much effort from you, does it?
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#27 Old 02-16-2011, 05:23 AM
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Well yes, when 'difficult' is an euphemism for significant psychological, social and physical hardships, and 'easy' is avoiding them, then yes, I have no problem with someone taking the easier way (I also have no problem if someone chooses of their own will to endure the difficulties; that's up to them to decide, I'm not them).

Yes, it's up to the person carrying the baby to decide. And should be. That doesn't soften or nullify the act of abortion and using terms like clump of cells to rationalize it doesn't help.
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#28 Old 02-16-2011, 06:00 AM
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Yes, it's up to the person carrying the baby to decide. And should be. That doesn't soften or nullify the act of abortion and using terms like clump of cells to rationalize it doesn't help.

But it is a clump of cells at the very beginning... when I studied Human Reproduction and the Law they showed us what a four week old foetus is, and that's it, a clump of cells. It's the same as saying 'carrying the baby' to bring an emotional response make people imagine the foetus as a full grown baby... in the early stages you would never be able to recognise the foetus as a baby. I personally don't feel I 'nullify' the act of abortion... I think it's not ideal that abortions have to take place, but I think in a lot of situations abortion is the better alternative. I don't really know what you mean by 'soften'.
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#29 Old 02-16-2011, 06:21 AM
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Yes, it's up to the person carrying the baby to decide. And should be.

Perhaps I got the wrong impression from post #20, in which it seemed like even acknowledging various problems with not terminating the pregnancy didn't meet your approval.

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That doesn't soften or nullify the act of abortion and using terms like clump of cells to rationalize it doesn't help.

"Clump of cells" is a rationalization in the same way that "the baby" is an emotive rhetorical instrument. Both expressions are a way to express a moral/normative position.

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#30 Old 02-16-2011, 06:54 AM
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Rape is already illegal. HTH

For now.
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