History of dog husbandry involves using dogs for food, as well as for other functions - VeggieBoards
Forum Jump: 
 
Thread Tools
#1 Old 01-20-2011, 06:31 PM
Banned
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 10,763
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/41149774...ience-science/

Quote:
PORTLAND, Maine — Nearly 10,000 years ago, man's best friend provided protection and companionship — and an occasional meal.

That's what researchers are saying after finding a bone fragment from what they are calling the earliest confirmed domesticated dog in the Americas.

Note that they are saying this is true of very earliest known domesticated dog in the Americas.

Evidence that the history of dog husbandry involves using dogs for food, as well as for other functions, such as perhaps pulling sleds, helping people chase down hunted birds and small mammals, helping people herd herd-animals, sniffing out and finding who knows what, helping people keep warm, whilst living, and providing fur coats when dead, and who knows what else.

It adds another reason to conjecture that dog husbandry has involved using dogs for any and all possible purposes, from the outset.
soilman is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
#2 Old 01-20-2011, 07:11 PM
Banned
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 10,763
I wanted to put this message in the veg/animal issues in the news thread, and I did so. How do I remove it from here?
soilman is offline  
#3 Old 01-20-2011, 07:20 PM
Veggie Regular
 
Wolfie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 6,850
Ask a moderator to delete or close it.
Wolfie is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
#4 Old 01-21-2011, 07:26 AM
Banned
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 10,763
How do I find a moderator?
soilman is offline  
#5 Old 01-21-2011, 09:45 AM
Veggie Regular
 
Snowcone's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Your Mother's basement.
Posts: 2,587
Go to the main forum page, click on a yellow name on the currently online list, and send a PM.

"A-yup. Ya wasted yer life, son"

- Old Man
Snowcone is offline  
#6 Old 01-21-2011, 09:51 AM
Veggie Regular
 
ElaineV's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 4,026
It clearly demonstrates that our relationships with animals have changed and will continue to change as our empathy as a species grows to include more and more nonhumans.

more recent example:
Most dog breeds who were originally bred for herding no longer perform that task. Now, they are pets who may or may not also engage in dog sports to funnel that herding drive.
ElaineV is offline  
#7 Old 01-21-2011, 10:20 AM
Veggie Regular
 
Sevenseas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 25,067
Quote:
Originally Posted by soilman View Post

How do I find a moderator?

The only way I know is that you go to a VB meet-up, holding a sign "I'm here for the modz" and hope that someone in attendance happens to be one. But you can't just express your wishes about a given mod action right then and there; they won't remember something like that later on, since a lot of other stuff is happening there too. So you should ask for their phone number, so you can later call them and then say what you'd like to be done about a given post or thread etc.

"and I stand

upon a mountain

made of weak and useless men"

Sevenseas is offline  
#8 Old 01-21-2011, 11:45 AM
Banned
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 10,763
Quote:
Originally Posted by ElaineV View Post

It clearly demonstrates that our relationships with animals have changed and will continue to change as our empathy as a species grows to include more and more nonhumans.

more recent example:
Most dog breeds who were originally bred for herding no longer perform that task. Now, they are pets who may or may not also engage in dog sports to funnel that herding drive.

How do they get to dog sporting events if they can't get a driver's license, can't use public transportation, and, due to a language barrier, can't manage to make their owners understand that they really would like to go to sporting events, or, if their owners won't take them to sporting events, at least untie them for a short period of time, every once in awhile?

It seems to me that our empathy for dogs seems to have gotten less, over the years. We probably treat them more cruelly now, then we did 10,000 years ago. Those dogs that we eat: raising them for food in factory farms, instead of letting them run around and be pet dogs for a few years, before we eat them. Tying them up, locking them up, more often, instead of letting them run around and play dog sports with other dogs. Not letting them out of the house, and then beating them when they poop on the carpet, instead of just leaving them outside to poop wherever they want. I'd bet they are more likely to end up being euthanized, at an "animal shelter," when humans move, instead of going along with nomadic humans as they move around.
soilman is offline  
#9 Old 01-21-2011, 11:49 AM
Veggie Regular
 
FatFreddysCat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 597
Quote:
Originally Posted by soilman View Post

How do I find a moderator?

Post something inappropriate. They'll come calling.
FatFreddysCat is offline  
#10 Old 01-21-2011, 08:06 PM
Veggie Regular
 
Josh James xVx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,097
I usually find them pretty easily by posting honestly from my heart on subjects that are important to me. Maybe you could try that? Or maybe your heart is less interesting than mine. Don't worry if it is. We all have our own talents.

As for the topic at hand, it only goes to show how much human culture has evolved and adapted over the years. Come to think of it, infanticide and rape were most likely commonplace among our earliest ancestors. Just examine our closest genetic relatives the Chimpanzees and you'll see plenty of this behavior in the wild. The thing that makes humanity great isn't the extent to which we don't change but the extent to which we continue to evaluate our behavior and grow. Only within the last tiny fraction of humanity's history have we abolished things like racial segregation or child labor. We're literally still in our infancy as a species. We have a lot of growing to do, but in at least one potential future we'll see animals like pigs and chickens the same way we see dogs now. We may even learn to accept people who happen to be gay. Imagine that!

Tam! RUGH!
Josh James xVx is offline  
#11 Old 01-24-2011, 09:36 AM
Veggie Regular
 
ElaineV's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 4,026
Quote:
Originally Posted by soilman View Post

It seems to me that our empathy for dogs seems to have gotten less, over the years. We probably treat them more cruelly now, then we did 10,000 years ago. Those dogs that we eat: raising them for food in factory farms, instead of letting them run around and be pet dogs for a few years, before we eat them. Tying them up, locking them up, more often, instead of letting them run around and play dog sports with other dogs. Not letting them out of the house, and then beating them when they poop on the carpet, instead of just leaving them outside to poop wherever they want. I'd bet they are more likely to end up being euthanized, at an "animal shelter," when humans move, instead of going along with nomadic humans as they move around.

It's very difficult to determine whether human empathy for dogs has increased or decreased compared to 10,000 years ago. Certainly, puppymills did not exist 10,000 years ago. But I suspect that humans were pretty brutal to dogs back then.

Anyway, if we look at recent history then it's very easy to see that humans are learning to treat dogs (and probably other animals) with more compassion. For example, in 1984, about 17 million animals were euthanized in “shelters.” Now, the number is closer to 5 million. (source)

The components have been:
- encouraging people to adopt shelter animals instead of buying pet store animals
- encouraging people to spay and neuter
- TNR and free-roaming cat care
- microchips, tags, and the web to help reunite lost animals with their people
- protests against puppymills and pet stores that sell puppymill dogs
- improved legal protections for cats and dogs

...It's working! Ending shelter killing and the businesses that fuel it – puppymills – is a mainstream issue that’s winnable! This is an area where the animal rights movement is clearly succeeding.

Related information that suggests that humans are becoming more compassionate and less violent:
http://www.ted.com/talks/lang/eng/st..._violence.html
http://www.ted.com/talks/jeremy_rifk...ilization.html
ElaineV is offline  
#12 Old 01-24-2011, 01:35 PM
Banned
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 10,763
Quote:
Originally Posted by ElaineV View Post

It's very difficult to determine whether human empathy for dogs has increased or decreased compared to 10,000 years ago. Certainly, puppymills did not exist 10,000 years ago. But I suspect that humans were pretty brutal to dogs back then.

Anyway, if we look at recent history then it's very easy to see that humans are learning to treat dogs (and probably other animals) with more compassion. For example, in 1984, about 17 million animals were euthanized in “shelters.” Now, the number is closer to 5 million. (source)

The components have been:
- encouraging people to adopt shelter animals instead of buying pet store animals
- encouraging people to spay and neuter
- TNR and free-roaming cat care
- microchips, tags, and the web to help reunite lost animals with their people
- protests against puppymills and pet stores that sell puppymill dogs
- improved legal protections for cats and dogs

...It's working! Ending shelter killing and the businesses that fuel it – puppymills – is a mainstream issue that’s winnable! This is an area where the animal rights movement is clearly succeeding.

Related information that suggests that humans are becoming more compassionate and less violent:
http://www.ted.com/talks/lang/eng/st..._violence.html
http://www.ted.com/talks/jeremy_rifk...ilization.html

The recent history you point to, regarding improved treatment of dogs and cats, appears to apply only to the United States. I agree that people are going in the direction of treating dogs and cats more humanely, in the US, and maybe horses. And that this is an issue that is winnable, in the US. But the number of dogs killed killed in shelters has always been teensy, compared to the number of all kinds of animals killed for food. See the info about this, here.

I wonder how many dogs are killed in South Korea alone, for food? And what about other parts of Asia, and many parts of Africa? And the fact that they are often are purposely treated cruelly, before being slaughtered, with the belief that this increases certain kinds of chemical in the tissues, that are believed to have value to the persons that eat the dogs. And how are nuisance dogs and cats dealt with in various parts of the world? The US is only a tiny part of the world.
soilman is offline  
#13 Old 01-25-2011, 05:51 AM
Veggie Regular
 
ElaineV's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 4,026
The US is only one part of the world but calling it "a tiny part" is outrageously inaccurate. The US is a world leader and trends that happen in the US tend to follow suit in other places too.

But as far as animal rights goes, the US has a long ways to go and is far behind many other nations. For example, China just recently outlawed animal circuses. Other nations have outlawed animal circuses, zoos, bullfighting, and other firms of cruel entertainment.

Some studies indicate that the number of vegans, vegetarians, and meat-reducers is growing both in the US and in the UK, which suggests that this group of conscientious eaters might also be growing elsewhere.

Please see the 2 links I provided above about how the overall trend through history has been leaning towards peace, compassion, empathy for others. That suggests animals will eventually be included in our thoughts about peace and justice.
ElaineV is offline  
#14 Old 01-25-2011, 06:59 AM
Veggie Regular
 
rainforests1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 4,204
Dogs tend to wander so how would they be able to keep dogs from wandering when humans were wandering a lot around this time as well? I don't get that. Obviously when humans went to agriculture and were staying in one place and found the means to be able to keep dogs within distance it wouldn't be hard. Everything I've read has said we domesticated dogs while we were hunters and getherers. I don't get how we'd be able to do that without the dogs running off.
rainforests1 is offline  
#15 Old 01-25-2011, 07:02 AM
Veggie Regular
 
rainforests1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 4,204
Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh James xVx View Post

The thing that makes humanity great isn't the extent to which we don't change but the extent to which we continue to evaluate our behavior and grow.

Humans are great compared to what?
rainforests1 is offline  
#16 Old 01-25-2011, 09:12 AM
Banned
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 10,763
rainforests1
Quote:
Dogs tend to wander so how would they be able to keep dogs from wandering when humans were wandering a lot around this time as well?

dogs don't wander off if you train them not to. Simple leash training: you attach the dog to a leash, if it trys to walk in its own direction, you pull the leash smartly. Dog learns it can't escape. Simultaneously you command it to heal, while forcing it to heel to you with the leash, and it eventually the learns to heel when you say heel, without you needing to smartly pull it to you, with the leash. After a few weeks of doing this, you remove the leash, and the dog acts as if the leash is still attached. I know this from experience, not book learning. Despite the absense of a leash, the dog will heal whenever you say heel. It will never run off, unless it instinctively runs after a prey animal or another dog. But it will return after it captures its prey, bangs the other dog. Even then, you can increase the heel conditoning. For example you have it heeling, and when it trys to run after a prey animal, you whack it with a stick. After awhile, it will see the dog looking longingly at a prey animals, but be afraid to chase it. It will look back and forth between master and prey animal. Whine and try to tell you "I want to chase that prey animal." But if you've trained it appropriately, and command it not to chase, it won't chase. You can even extinguish the whining behavior. Humans have nearly complete control over dog instincts. Too bad we don't have the same control over our own instincts. Much of animal (including human) activity revolves around learning how to control others, and learning how to prevent others from controlling us. While other humans are a match for us, dogs are no match for us humans. We can exert nearly complete control over the dog, and almost completely prevent the dog from controlling us.

Of course, not all "pet" owners function this way. But this is the historical relationship. Humans exert control. Dogs have no control. Should any dog be resistant to complete control: unnatural selection makes things so it doesn't reproduce, and similar dogs don't happen in the future.

So long as you treat the dog with some semblance of kindness, for example, feed it, it won't seem to mind its complete loss of autonomy. That one of the main reasons people like dogs so much. They seem to value the master's will more than their own. People interpret this as "the dog is my friend."
soilman is offline  
#17 Old 01-28-2011, 12:18 PM
Veggie Regular
 
rainforests1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 4,204
I'd assume the dog thousands of years ago when they were domesticated was much closer to the wolf than modern domesticated dogs are. There's logic to what you said but we know so little about what dogs were like back then.
rainforests1 is offline  
#18 Old 02-01-2011, 11:23 PM
Veggie Regular
 
havocjohn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 7,669
Quote:
Originally Posted by ElaineV View Post

The US is only one part of the world but calling it "a tiny part" is outrageously inaccurate. The US is a world leader and trends that happen in the US tend to follow suit in other places too.

But as far as animal rights goes, the US has a long ways to go and is far behind many other nations. For example, China just recently outlawed animal circuses. Other nations have outlawed animal circuses, zoos, bullfighting, and other firms of cruel entertainment.

Some studies indicate that the number of vegans, vegetarians, and meat-reducers is growing both in the US and in the UK, which suggests that this group of conscientious eaters might also be growing elsewhere.

Please see the 2 links I provided above about how the overall trend through history has been leaning towards peace, compassion, empathy for others. That suggests animals will eventually be included in our thoughts about peace and justice.

Actually though the US is a world leader, we are still a very small part of the world, our population is aprox 320 million out of 6 billion, heck China currently has a standing army of 200 million people. We are just a drop in the bucket in regards to overall population and culture on this planet.

As to violence, there are many factors which your links don't seem to take into account, but even then they are wrong. Since WW2 off the top of my head there have been violent upheavals all over the world; China killing millions of it's own people, Soviet Union killing at least 20 million of it's own people, Vietnam both France and US, Korean War, Cambodia, India vs Pakistan, India and China, China and Vietnam, Russia and Georga, Bosnia, Dufar, Seven Day War, Yom Kipper War, Iran vs Iraq, the ongoing drug wars around the world and violence associated with them, IRA vs England, Cuba, and numerous wars and border incidents in South and Central America, as well as Africa and Asia.

We are not less violent as a species, it's only the western nations that have deluded themselves into that belief.

The same is true with animals. Kindness to animals, dogs, cats, etc is primarly a western concept. Yeah there are some cultures that consider certain animals to be sacred but for the most part that is rare not the norm.

Just because they have outlawed certain acts in no way demonstrates a sign of more compassin over all in regards to animals, that's an illusion.

Even in this country despite the dramatic decline in dogs and cats killed every yr in shelters over the last decade, we still have millions that are killed every yr, not to mention those abused for whatever reason in a domestic setting.

If you really believe that we are becoming more compassionate as a species you are deluding yourself, we have changed in thousands of yrs, only our toys have changed.
havocjohn is offline  
#19 Old 02-02-2011, 11:37 AM
Banned
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 10,763
havocjohn

Quote:
Kindness to animals, dogs, cats, etc is primarly a western concept. Yeah there are some cultures that consider certain animals to be sacred but for the most part that is rare not the norm.

I don't think so. I think it has been quite prevalent in India, in Hindu and Jain thought, and in Buddhist throughout the East. Although I agree that the average person, despite claiming to be a member of one of these groups, doesn't really implement the concept any better than the concept is implemented in the west.
soilman is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the VeggieBoards forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
If you do not want to register, fill this field only and the name will be used as user name for your post.
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in


Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off