AZ Congresswoman and over a dozen others shot - Page 4 - VeggieBoards
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#91 Old 01-09-2011, 06:01 PM
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By the way, those 20-cartridge clips he was reported to have, were made illegal many years ago. Today you cannot by clips for more than, I think it is 13, cartridges. I remember it was a good few years ago, when the new law went into effect, and people were stocking up on 20-cartridge clips, before existing supplies were sold out.

Also, that Glock 19 he was reported to have, is a fairly expensive handgun. You can't easily get permission to possess one of those in NY. Interesting that he obtained one in Arizona, as easily as someone in NY can obtain a long gun.
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#92 Old 01-09-2011, 07:44 PM
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I don't know if and why the congresswoman was specifically targeted, but there are many similar forms of violence and contempt that seem to be the extreme culmination of general over-the-top and aggressive anti-government views.

I don't really know where all the paranoid anti-government attitudes are ultimately coming from. They are present in left-wing conspiracy theories and especially in anarchism, which I think is usually a radically leftist movement. But they also seem to be inherent to the American conservative worldview as such, and can be seen in all the talk about how "the government is gonna take your money" and how you need to get them (the politicians and everyone representing the federal government) out of your life. And how you need to prepare yourself and form a one-man militia for when they're gonna come and take your freedoms away. Those kind of views are present even here on VB.

This anti-government sentiment is so strong that even mainstream politicians themselves use it -- and they succeed in using it, so much so that people who view themselves as distrustful of governmental power still vote in the same type of power-hungry opportunistic politicians again and again. Curiously, this anti-government paranoia also seems to be inconsistently coupled with strong patriotism (and here is the difference between right and left in anti-government views).

It seems like these extreme and sentimental forms a distrust of government can take -- which go way beyond a healthy mistrust of authority -- are the dark side of how much individuals and individual freedoms are emphasized in American culture, and/or how so many issues get politicized through the dichotomy of the individual vs. the government.

This.
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#93 Old 01-09-2011, 08:48 PM
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By the way, those 20-cartridge clips he was reported to have, were made illegal many years ago. Today you cannot by clips for more than, I think it is 13, cartridges. I remember it was a good few years ago, when the new law went into effect, and people were stocking up on 20-cartridge clips, before existing supplies were sold out.

That's not universally true, it varies by state. In California, for example, magazines can't hold more than 10 rounds. But the standard magazine for the G19 holds 15, plus one in the chamber.

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Also, that Glock 19 he was reported to have, is a fairly expensive handgun. You can't easily get permission to possess one of those in NY. Interesting that he obtained one in Arizona, as easily as someone in NY can obtain a long gun.

Glocks aren't what you'd call a "Saturday Night Special", but they're not overly expensive, really. I'm not sure what any of this has to do with anything, though.

I just have one of those faces. People come up to me and say, "What's wrong?" Nothing. "Well, it takes more energy to frown than it does to smile." Yeah, you know it takes more energy to point that out than it does to leave me alone? -Bill Hicks
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#94 Old 01-10-2011, 08:44 AM
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I feel terrible for the victims, definitely. Such violence is horrible. Yet I do feel somewhat sorry for the guy who shot them all. From what I've read, he was socially awkward and had no friends, everyone disliked him, he has mental disorders. You can't help but have pity on such bad luck. Not that it excuses what he did, but it's like Delicioso said. Maybe this could have been prevented?

And maybe he "targeted" the congresswoman because she was around the corner? Just a theory.
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#95 Old 01-10-2011, 09:00 AM
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#96 Old 01-10-2011, 09:21 AM
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Given that the shooter appeared to be suffering from dementia, and wrote in a manner that was completely incoherent, it makes more sense to conclude that nothing more complicated than random senseless violence was involved.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/10/us...s.html?_r=2&hp

"Evidence seized from Mr. Loughners home, about five miles from the shooting, indicated that he had planned to kill Representative Gabrielle Giffords, Democrat of Arizona, according to documents filed in Federal District Court in Phoenix."
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#97 Old 01-10-2011, 09:27 AM
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Alright, not random senseless violence, but senseless violence that he had once made some mention of, some time beforehand, in an incoherent note on an envelope.

Simply saying "i planned this" and having it noted, on an envelope, is not the same as "methodical" planning. How much planning does it take, anyway, to get to a public event at a mall, on time, in a taxi, and remember to have your gun and your ammunition ready, when to taxi picks you up, so that you can bring with you in the taxi?

An envelope with a few words on it is not the same as "methodical planning." "Methodical" planning requires at least several sheets of paper.
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#98 Old 01-10-2011, 10:09 AM
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I really find it annoying to hear so many reports of Gifford's prognosis being "good." The doctor is "optomistic about recovery." But does recovery, acc to the doctor, really imply returning to the same state she was in before the injury, as the word is generally understood to mean? Or does he really just mean survive? Yes there is a good chance she will survive. I'm not a doctor, but it seems to me that the chance of her recovering without a severe physical and mental impairments are not so good. Sure she may be able to walk again. And talk again. But will she be able to return to a job similar to that she was doing when injured? Will she be able to return to any job where she can support herself by selling a competitive skill in the market place? How well will she be able to walk? What about her ability to articulate thoughts? What about make a supermarket shopping list? Balance a checkbook?

The early reports said the bullet went in through a temple, and exited from forehead. Now we are hearing it went in from back of head and travelled "the entire length" of her head from back to front. That seems to be different, and worse.

First we hear that surgeons removed "parts" of her skull to prevent damage to the brain from brain-swelling. Later we hear that about half of her skull needed to be removed.
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#99 Old 01-10-2011, 10:34 AM
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I really find it annoying to hear so many reports of Gifford's prognosis being "good." The doctor is "optomistic about recovery." But does recovery, acc to the doctor, really imply returning to the same state she was in before the injury, as the word is generally understood to mean? Or does he really just mean survive? Yes there is a good chance she will survive. I'm not a doctor, but it seems to me that the chance of her recovering without a severe physical and mental impairments are not so good. Sure she may be able to walk again. And talk again. But will she be able to return to a job similar to that she was doing when injured? Will she be able to return to any job where she can support herself by selling a competitive skill in the market place? How well will she be able to walk? What about her ability to articulate thoughts? What about make a supermarket shopping list? Balance a checkbook?

The early reports said the bullet went in through a temple, and exited from forehead. Now we are hearing it went in from back of head and travelled "the entire length" of her head from back to front. That seems to be different, and worse.

First we hear that surgeons removed "parts" of her skull to prevent damage to the brain from brain-swelling. Later we hear that about half of her skull needed to be removed.

we won't know this for weeks.

cry havoc! and let slip the dogs of war.
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#100 Old 01-10-2011, 10:45 AM
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I really find it annoying to hear so many reports of Gifford's prognosis being "good." The doctor is "optomistic about recovery." But does recovery, acc to the doctor, really imply returning to the same state she was in before the injury, as the word is generally understood to mean? Or does he really just mean survive? Yes there is a good chance she will survive. I'm not a doctor, but it seems to me that the chance of her recovering without a severe physical and mental impairments are not so good. Sure she may be able to walk again. And talk again. But will she be able to return to a job similar to that she was doing when injured? Will she be able to return to any job where she can support herself by selling a competitive skill in the market place? How well will she be able to walk? What about her ability to articulate thoughts? What about make a supermarket shopping list? Balance a checkbook?

The early reports said the bullet went in through a temple, and exited from forehead. Now we are hearing it went in from back of head and travelled "the entire length" of her head from back to front. That seems to be different, and worse.

First we hear that surgeons removed "parts" of her skull to prevent damage to the brain from brain-swelling. Later we hear that about half of her skull needed to be removed.

Nothing is impossible with God , I think God is bringing her through this and yes we won't know for weeks. She might have to step down and they need to get someone else.

However, there are many people that works different shifts so they need to updated her condition as much as they can. I seen a live conference a few hours ago and the doctors are Thanking people off all over for the support and guidence in everything. They are very stressed and they are emotional hurt in this also. Its a hard situation.
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#101 Old 01-10-2011, 01:07 PM
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This event absolutely sickened me... for those hurt, those who died, the families, and yes, even the shooter. It takes very little to see that this individual is mentally ill. It makes me ill that this is being spun for political gain.

The opposite of war isn't peace. It's creation!
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#102 Old 01-10-2011, 01:09 PM
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This event absolutely sickened me... for those hurt, those who died, the families, and yes, even the shooter. It takes very little to see that this individual is mentally ill. It makes me ill that this is being spun for political gain.

I dont think it can be said any better. I also think that the majority of Americans are looking at it the same way. I hope.
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#103 Old 01-10-2011, 01:57 PM
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This event absolutely sickened me... for those hurt, those who died, the families, and yes, even the shooter. It takes very little to see that this individual is mentally ill. It makes me ill that this is being spun for political gain.

I felt the same way
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#104 Old 01-10-2011, 04:01 PM
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This event absolutely sickened me... for those hurt, those who died, the families, and yes, even the shooter. It takes very little to see that this individual is mentally ill. It makes me ill that this is being spun for political gain.

Mental illness is NOT a good explanation for violence. If you're going to randomly assign this violence to something other than political motivations, the more reasonable explanation would be drugs. Statistically, drugs are the more plausible explanation.

Please read this article for some more on that concept:
http://www.slate.com/id/2280619
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#105 Old 01-10-2011, 04:09 PM
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Mental illness is NOT a good explanation for violence. If you're going to randomly assign this violence to something other than political motivations, the more reasonable explanation would be drugs. Statistically, drugs are the more plausible explanation.

Please read this article for some more on that concept:
http://www.slate.com/id/2280619

I posit that people under the influence of many drugs *are* mentally ill.

"Yes! Live! Life's a banquet and most poor suckers are starving to death!" Auntie Mame
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#106 Old 01-10-2011, 04:31 PM
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I posit that people under the influence of many drugs *are* mentally ill.

I disagree. They're simply under the influence of drugs.
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#107 Old 01-10-2011, 04:32 PM
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No, there is no good explanation for violence, but certainly mental illness is A cause. Often times, people are self medicating with drugs (legal or illegal), and that too is A cause of violence. I'm a psychiatric social worker, Elaine. It doesn't make me an expert, but I feel like I have more than a passing knowledge of the subject.

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#108 Old 01-10-2011, 04:50 PM
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I disagree. They're simply under the influence of drugs.

i really don't think that with no previous motivation someone on drugs just out of the blue decides to take down an entire congresswoman's staff. drugs just release inhibitions about things you already wanted to do in the first place. i also agree with ahisma that a lot of people who use drugs are self medicating for something.

one of the most awesome things i've heard about this story =

Giffords was saved (keeping her still, stemming bleeding) by a homosexual hispanic man, and her cheif surgeon is an arab. talk about example of everyone working together.

cry havoc! and let slip the dogs of war.
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#109 Old 01-10-2011, 05:04 PM
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i really don't think that with no previous motivation someone on drugs just out of the blue decides to take down an entire congresswoman's staff. drugs just release inhibitions about things you already wanted to do in the first place.

I agree with the first part. Just didn't want to term people using drugs as mentally ill.

As to the second point: true in some cases but sometimes the effect is opposite.
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#110 Old 01-10-2011, 07:01 PM
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By the way, those 20-cartridge clips he was reported to have, were made illegal many years ago. Today you cannot by clips for more than, I think it is 13, cartridges. I remember it was a good few years ago, when the new law went into effect, and people were stocking up on 20-cartridge clips, before existing supplies were sold out.

I find it darkly humorous that some people are blaming Arizona's loose concealed carry laws.

I really don't picture this guy planning to assassinate a congresswoman, and then stopping because he realizes that it's illegal for him to conceal carry a firearm.
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#111 Old 01-10-2011, 08:14 PM
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I find it darkly humorous that some people are blaming Arizona's loose concealed carry laws.

I really don't picture this guy planning to assassinate a congresswoman, and then stopping because he realizes that it's illegal for him to conceal carry a firearm.

Yeah, wouldn't have made a damn bit of difference. Maybe we should just have a rule that says if you're too much of a f***ing nutcase for even the Army to let you handle live rounds, maybe nobody else should be either.

Keep on freepin' on

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#112 Old 01-10-2011, 09:01 PM
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" drugs just release inhibitions about things you already wanted to do in the first place"

That isn't always so. Not a reliable generality. Sometimes it appears that way. Other times it appears that drugs inhibit people from doing things they would otherwise do, if they weren't on the drugs. Othertimes, they do neither. Depends on the drug. Depends on the person taking the drug. Depends on situation. Too many variables are at work. So many, it makes no sense to say that "drugs release inhbitions."
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#113 Old 01-10-2011, 09:31 PM
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Yeah, wouldn't have made a damn bit of difference. Maybe we should just have a rule that says if you're too much of a f***ing nutcase for even the Army to let you handle live rounds, maybe nobody else should be either.

I read today that he was rejected based on a failed drug test.

I just have one of those faces. People come up to me and say, "What's wrong?" Nothing. "Well, it takes more energy to frown than it does to smile." Yeah, you know it takes more energy to point that out than it does to leave me alone? -Bill Hicks
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#114 Old 01-10-2011, 10:19 PM
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I read today that he was rejected based on a failed drug test.

I gather he actually passed the urine test; what caused him to be rejected was his honest answerto a question about drug use - he stated that he used pot on a regular basis.
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#115 Old 01-10-2011, 10:33 PM
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I agree with the first part. Just didn't want to term people using drugs as mentally ill.

As to the second point: true in some cases but sometimes the effect is opposite.

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I disagree. They're simply under the influence of drugs.

Perhaps you've never been around people experiencing a drug induced psychosis or dealing with dual diagnosis. These are real conditions. http://www.minddisorders.com/Py-Z/Su...-disorder.html http://www.schizophrenia.com/family/dualdiag.html

"Yes! Live! Life's a banquet and most poor suckers are starving to death!" Auntie Mame
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#116 Old 01-10-2011, 10:45 PM
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I find it darkly humorous that some people are blaming Arizona's loose concealed carry laws.

I really don't picture this guy planning to assassinate a congresswoman, and then stopping because he realizes that it's illegal for him to conceal carry a firearm.

It's not about whether he carries his plan through or whether he "stops". It's about how much harm he can cause with his chosen means, and how easy it is for others to defend themselves against such means.

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#117 Old 01-11-2011, 04:09 AM
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Perhaps you've never been around people experiencing a drug induced psychosis or dealing with dual diagnosis. These are real conditions. http://www.minddisorders.com/Py-Z/Su...-disorder.html http://www.schizophrenia.com/family/dualdiag.html

There are exceptions to every rule. I know a person with 6 toes.
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#118 Old 01-11-2011, 04:14 AM
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There are exceptions to every rule. You've latched on to one.

Latched on? No, I didn't 'latch on', these things are well established realities, sadly. There's no 'rule' that says people on drugs aren't also crazy so I really don't relate to your stance.

"Yes! Live! Life's a banquet and most poor suckers are starving to death!" Auntie Mame
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#119 Old 01-11-2011, 04:36 AM
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You're using a relatively rare diagnosis to paint people using drugs as something they are not.

You made a generalization that people on drugs *are* mentally ill. I disagree as I think most people do.
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#120 Old 01-11-2011, 04:47 AM
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You're using a relatively rare diagnosis to paint people using drugs as something they are not.

You made a generalization that people on drugs *are* mentally ill. I disagree as I think most people do.

Okay, now you're making me bring out the big guns, . I made NO generalizations (go back and read my statements) and these conditions are NOT 'relatively rare'.

However, I didn't even list all the examples of how drugs may play a part! I'll list another: taking certain drugs can trigger the first psychotic episode of schizophrenia! I'm talking cannabis, alcohol, LSD or amphetamines. Yes, cannabis and alcohol! So, again, I stand by my statements and if you don't want to take my word for it, Google and look at the many credible sources available that back me up.

"Yes! Live! Life's a banquet and most poor suckers are starving to death!" Auntie Mame
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