Amish Sharia Law - VeggieBoards
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#1 Old 12-12-2010, 05:07 PM
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http://www.dispatch.com/live/content...n.html?sid=101
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Originally Posted by Randy Ludlow, The Columbus Dispatch View Post

Its just not done. You dont go to court. Not if youre Amish.

Monroe Beachy made a big mistake losing $17 million that fellow members of the Plain Community trusted him to invest.

More than 2,000 members of the Amish and Mennonite churches concentrated northeast of Columbus gave him more than $33 million over a quarter-century. Somehow, half of it vanished. Federal authorities suspect fraud.

But, to the Amish, brother Beachy made a bigger mistake by rejecting Godly counsel in favor of legal counsel and going to court to declare bankruptcy.

In court filings, Amish leaders write that they dont believe in the force and fear of government-created courts. The use of courts is forbidden by the Bible, classified as the stuff of the Kingdom of This World...

...The federal trustee, who declined to comment, opposes turning the case over to Amish justice. Religious beliefs do not constitute cause to dismiss the case, he wrote. It would be irresponsible to remove the case from judicial oversight and well-defined plans to distribute the remaining money, he wrote.

interesting stuff. i'm sympathetic to the amish but 33 million is a lot of rocking chairs. i suppose it's their call but shrugging off millions of dollars in fraud is going to make them a greater target of fraudsters in the future.

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#2 Old 12-12-2010, 05:16 PM
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http://www.dispatch.com/live/content...n.html?sid=101


interesting stuff. i'm sympathetic to the amish but 33 million is a lot of rocking chairs. i suppose it's their call but shrugging off millions of dollars in fraud is going to make them a greater target of fraudsters in the future.

Haha, I'm from Columbus and I know exactly which communities this article is talking about. I have to admit when I saw the thread title I thought to myself "this is one for that thread about reading titles wrong."

It's true, generally the Amish don't go to court. They prefer to settle everything in-house. This is primarily because they distrust "the English" as they call us and because they have a religious prohibition against taking an oath. Worldly justice is not God's justice, and when something like this happens usually the Amish take steps towards dealing with the problem and the perpetrator by themself through a lengthy means of judicial law called the Ordnung. The fact that Beachy rejected "God's counsel" in favor of "worldly counsel" actually is paramount to him declaring himself not Amish anymore.

I have to add, the Amish are some of the most hard-dealing business men I know. They really know how to drive a sale and keep track of money. It has to do with being good "stewards" of their possessions, which are ultimately Gods. I'm surprised they let themselves be swindled in such a way.

"It is far better to be happy than to have your bodies act as graveyards for animals. Accordingly, the apostle Matthew partook of seeds, nuts and vegetables, without flesh"- Clement of Alexandria
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#3 Old 12-13-2010, 06:32 AM
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thank goodness they don't live in Oklahoma, amirite?

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#4 Old 12-13-2010, 07:15 AM
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thank goodness they don't live in Oklahoma, amirite?

? I don't get what you're trying to say. What does amirite mean?

"It is far better to be happy than to have your bodies act as graveyards for animals. Accordingly, the apostle Matthew partook of seeds, nuts and vegetables, without flesh"- Clement of Alexandria
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#5 Old 12-13-2010, 07:17 AM
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http://articles.cnn.com/2010-11-29/u...l-law?_s=PM:US

amirite

am i rite

am i right

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#6 Old 12-13-2010, 07:18 AM
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? I don't get what you're trying to say. What does amirite mean?

Am I right?

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#7 Old 12-13-2010, 07:22 AM
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Oh, gotcha. Yeah, the Amish tend to stay away from Oklahoma anyways, its such a conservative pro-American state that looks down on anybody who doesn't thing the USA government deserves unconditional loyalty. They have been moving into more liberal states, such as Colorado and Oregon, where people are starting to see Amish people that just don't have experience with buggies on the road and stuff like that, like we do in Ohio. But these states are usually very accommodating to the Amish, unlike places like Texas, Oklahoma, the Dakotas and Wyoming.

"It is far better to be happy than to have your bodies act as graveyards for animals. Accordingly, the apostle Matthew partook of seeds, nuts and vegetables, without flesh"- Clement of Alexandria
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#8 Old 12-13-2010, 08:04 AM
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Oh, gotcha. Yeah, the Amish tend to stay away from Oklahoma anyways, its such a conservative pro-American state that looks down on anybody who doesn't thing the USA government deserves unconditional loyalty. They have been moving into more liberal states, such as Colorado and Oregon, where people are starting to see Amish people that just don't have experience with buggies on the road and stuff like that, like we do in Ohio. But these states are usually very accommodating to the Amish, unlike places like Texas, Oklahoma, the Dakotas and Wyoming.

Wait a second. Texas isn't accomodating to the Amish? Back that up.

I think you'll find a distinct lack of Amish families here more for practical reasons than political ones. Cheap arable land is not abundant in Texas...either the land is cheap or it's arable but usually not both...and it's also extremely far removed from their very well-established communities in the north.

However, Texas has many thriving Mennonite communities. To say that Texas is unfriendly or hostile to Anabaptist groups is a crock of ****, frankly.
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#9 Old 12-13-2010, 08:21 AM
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Wait a second. Texas isn't accomodating to the Amish? Back that up.

I think you'll find a distinct lack of Amish families here more for practical reasons than political ones. Cheap arable land is not abundant in Texas...either the land is cheap or it's arable but usually not both...and it's also extremely far removed from their very well-established communities in the north.

However, Texas has many thriving Mennonite communities. To say that Texas is unfriendly or hostile to Anabaptist groups is a crock of ****, frankly.

Old order Mennos, or the modernized kind? And I was just repeating what I have heard from the Amish themselves... a lot of them have friends moving West to settle since there is very little land left here in the Mid West. They've come back, or told stories when visiting, about how unfriendly the Texas state government is to them settling there and how Texan people, of themselves, are very unfriendly towards Amish families and frequently engage in unkind remarks and even sometimes buggy vandalism or other forms of property destruction against the Amish. That's what I've been told from the Amish here in Ohio.

But your right, those other factors may play a role as well.

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#10 Old 12-13-2010, 08:25 AM
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Old order Mennos, or the modernized kind? And I was just repeating what I have heard from the Amish themselves... a lot of them have friends moving West to settle since there is very little land left here in the Mid West. They've come back, or told stories when visiting, about how unfriendly the Texas state government is to them settling there and how Texan people, of themselves, are very unfriendly towards Amish families and frequently engage in unkind remarks and even sometimes buggy vandalism or other forms of property destruction against the Amish. That's what I've been told from the Amish here in Ohio.

Hmm, that's surprising given that Texas is a pretty "live and let live" kind of culture. I'd welcome them around here, personally. I don't have any problem with them whatsoever.

We have lots of different religious groups who have settled here in the past and who have thrived, so I don't buy that we're unfriendly as a whole.
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#11 Old 12-13-2010, 08:39 AM
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Hmm, that's surprising given that Texas is a pretty "live and let live" kind of culture. I'd welcome them around here, personally. I don't have any problem with them whatsoever.

We have lots of different religious groups who have settled here in the past and who have thrived, so I don't buy that we're unfriendly as a whole.

Yeah, and again it should be recognized that I only heard the stories about the Amish people who had bad encounters with Texas. They were the only ones that came back. Perhaps others had a more positive experience. And I do know of some Texan Hutterite (another Anabaptist group) community that is doing pretty well. So I may have just heard the bad stories. These same Amish people said the Dakotas were also unkind to Anabaptist groups, but the Hutterites are thriving in North and South Dakota. So yeah, I'd take it with a grain of salt.

"It is far better to be happy than to have your bodies act as graveyards for animals. Accordingly, the apostle Matthew partook of seeds, nuts and vegetables, without flesh"- Clement of Alexandria
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#12 Old 12-14-2010, 01:58 PM
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Wasn't it just last year when they stoned that poor girl for letting her hair fall out of her bun?

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#13 Old 12-14-2010, 02:15 PM
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Wasn't it just last year when they stoned that poor girl for letting her hair fall out of her bun?



The Amish?! Are you being serious? Killing in all forms (even in self defense) is forbidden in Amish communities.

"It is far better to be happy than to have your bodies act as graveyards for animals. Accordingly, the apostle Matthew partook of seeds, nuts and vegetables, without flesh"- Clement of Alexandria
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#14 Old 12-14-2010, 02:24 PM
 
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We really need an "I'm just kidding" smiley at VB.

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#15 Old 12-14-2010, 08:26 PM
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totally

I mean, amirite?

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#16 Old 12-15-2010, 03:22 AM
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Pakistan has the death penalty for blasphemy and nuclear weapons. it's a good combo really like a reese's peanut butter cup.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...121007195.html

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#17 Old 12-15-2010, 10:44 AM
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This is primarily because they distrust "the English" as they call us and because they have a religious prohibition against taking an oath.

Hasn't the US, since at least the ratification of the constitution, always had provisions for religious groups who refuse to take oaths, offering the possibility of making a solemn affirmation instead a sworn oath?

With the consent of all parties, can't these sorts of issues be subjected to binding arbitration, which might be religiously-based? Of course, given that this is an allegation of fraud, and not, say, a contract dispute or divorce or something, there's no reason for both parties to consent, unless there's the threat of a lawsuit on the part of the people who lost their money.
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#18 Old 12-15-2010, 10:51 AM
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Hasn't the US, since at least the ratification of the constitution, always had provisions for religious groups who refuse to take oaths, offering the possibility of making a solemn affirmation instead a sworn oath?

With the consent of all parties, can't these sorts of issues be subjected to binding arbitration, which might be religiously-based? Of course, given that this is an allegation of fraud, and not, say, a contract dispute or divorce or something, there's no reason for both parties to consent, unless there's the threat of a lawsuit on the part of the people who lost their money.

That might happen. Sometimes the Amish pay people to sue on their behalf. But not against other Amish. Usually against a school board or something.

You may be right. I don't really know much what the guidelines are in this sort of thing, you are probably right, though I've never come across a case where oath-swearing was an issue.

"It is far better to be happy than to have your bodies act as graveyards for animals. Accordingly, the apostle Matthew partook of seeds, nuts and vegetables, without flesh"- Clement of Alexandria
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#19 Old 12-16-2010, 02:50 PM
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The Amish?! Are you being serious? Killing in all forms (even in self defense) is forbidden in Amish communities.

Um, I thought that stoning someone to death for a hair offense was kinda obviously outrageous. I thought everyone knew I posted that kinda stuff...

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#20 Old 12-16-2010, 04:06 PM
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Um, I thought that stoning someone to death for a hair offense was kinda obviously outrageous. I thought everyone knew I posted that kinda stuff...

You'd be surprised what some people say about other religious groups. Especially when it comes to Islam. So, though obviously outrageous, I wasn't sure you were joking or mixing the Amish up with another religion, or something.

"It is far better to be happy than to have your bodies act as graveyards for animals. Accordingly, the apostle Matthew partook of seeds, nuts and vegetables, without flesh"- Clement of Alexandria
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#21 Old 12-17-2010, 01:52 PM
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You'd be surprised what some people say about other religious groups. Especially when it comes to Islam.

yeah, but that stuff's all true...

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#22 Old 12-17-2010, 01:56 PM
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A local boy kicked me in the butt last week
I just smiled at him and I turned the other cheek
I really don't care, in fact I wish him well
'Cause I'll be laughing my head off when he's burning in hell
But I ain't never punched a tourist even if he deserved it
An Amish with a 'tude? You know that's unheard of
I never wear buttons but I got a cool hat
And my homies agree I really look good in black, fool
If you come to visit you'll be bored to tears
We haven't even paid the phone bill in 300 years
But we ain't really quaint, so please don't point and stare
We're just technologically impaired

There's no phone, no lights, no motorcar
Not a single luxury
Like Robinson Crusoe
It's as primitive as can be

We've been spending most our lives
Living in an Amish paradise
We're just plain and simple guys
Living in an Amish paradise
There's no time for sin and vice
Living in an Amish paradise
We don't fight, we all play nice
Living in an Amish paradise

..

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upon a mountain

made of weak and useless men"

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#23 Old 12-17-2010, 08:39 PM
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Otomik, how did you come up with the title of this thread? It's just that Sharia Law has such a reputation for being exceedingly harsh and unbending in all the wrong ways, and this isn't super-harsh. Last I checked, Amish behavior expectations only applied to Amish people, and they're not trying to impose it on others. Obviously not all believers in Sharia are trying to impose it on non-Muslims, but you've got extremists who are. I don't think we have a large enough Amish population to be statistically likely to have those outliers.

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#24 Old 12-18-2010, 03:06 AM
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Otomik, how did you come up with the title of this thread?

i was thinking of the debate in britain about having mutually agreed upon sharia civil courts.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...sed-doors.html

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#25 Old 12-18-2010, 05:39 AM
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i was thinking of the debate in britain about having mutually agreed upon sharia civil courts.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...sed-doors.html

And you think the two are equivalent in some way? I have a very hard time seeing stoning an adulterous woman as being on the same level as forgiving a multi-million dollar crime.

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#26 Old 12-18-2010, 06:45 AM
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And you think the two are equivalent in some way?

kind of related in a way that makes a more succinct thread title. religions that have their own sense of justice.

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I have a very hard time seeing stoning an adulterous woman as being on the same level as forgiving a multi-million dollar crime.

you're not alone. but perhaps one could find some examples that are closer to the same level.
http://www.legalaffairs.org/issues/J...i_janfeb05.msp

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#27 Old 12-18-2010, 08:52 AM
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The US has both freedom of and freedom from religion. (You can't have one without the other.) Unfortunately some states have yet to get on board with the nation's founding principles and Supreme Court rulings.

Hence it is illegal to force someone to swear an oath if it's religious. A person can affirm what they are to say is true, without holding his hand on the Bible or mentioning deities/religion.

I hope to see a presidential inauguration one day that has a totally secular oath of office.

Beanitarian.
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#28 Old 12-18-2010, 02:36 PM
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Originally Posted by otomik View Post

kind of related in a way that makes a more succinct thread title. religions that have their own sense of justice.

you're not alone. but perhaps one could find some examples that are closer to the same level.
http://www.legalaffairs.org/issues/J...i_janfeb05.msp

That was very difficult to read, and not just because it's a generally difficult topic. Any family with a culture of silence/loyalty is a possible breeding ground for incestuous abuse. And I know of which I speak. Even in non-Amish families, it's incredibly hard to both prove and end incestuous abuse. It's common for children to repress the memories until they're well into adulthood, and then all proof but their repressed memories is gone. If the abuser refuses to admit anything happened, then it looks to be a situation no less difficult than the expectation of forgiveness.

Q: How many poets does it take to change a light bulb? A: 1001...one to change the bulb, 1000 to say it's already been done.
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#29 Old 12-20-2010, 01:06 PM
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yeah, but that stuff's all true...

it's almost just as popular as hating America, hating and fearing Muslims based entirely on scare topics!



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