Is the US still a patriarchy? [Split from Gary Francione thread] - VeggieBoards
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#1 Old 09-17-2010, 06:26 AM
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Im curious about what you do not agree with? Would you care to elaborate?

No problem!

I forget which exact podcast he talks about this, (he talks about it more than once) but he talks about the U.S. being a patriarchy and I don't think that's true anymore, or not nearly to the extent that it used to be.

I've listened to all the commentaries and from what I gather he has fairly left leaning politics. I'm a Libertarian which puts me in the other camp so naturally we're going to disagree on certain things.

Again, I find almost everything he says about animal rights to be spot on.

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#2 Old 09-17-2010, 09:56 AM
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No problem!

I forget which exact podcast he talks about this, (he talks about it more than once) but he talks about the U.S. being a patriarchy and I don't think that's true anymore, or not nearly to the extent that it used to be.

I've listened to all the commentaries and from what I gather he has fairly left leaning politics. I'm a Libertarian which puts me in the other camp so naturally we're going to disagree on certain things.

Again, I find almost everything he says about animal rights to be spot on.

How do you figure that the US is not a patriarchy?
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#3 Old 09-17-2010, 05:25 PM
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How do you figure that the US is not a patriarchy?

How do you figure it is? They have equal status these days. They can vote and ****.

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#4 Old 09-17-2010, 05:38 PM
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...They can vote and ****.

I am trying to figure out all the four letter words we can do! Man, there are a ton of them!!! Thank the ****s!
(Of course, I ain't in US...but close enough!)
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#5 Old 09-17-2010, 06:11 PM
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How do you figure it is? They have equal status these days. They can vote and ****.

Women usually dont get paid the same amount as men for the same jobs. Women tend to work harder in the business world because its a boys club. Even in products is there a bias: women's deodarant costs the same as mens, however its half the size. Are you a women or man?
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#6 Old 09-17-2010, 06:22 PM
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How do you figure it is? They have equal status these days. They can vote and ****.

Your idea of what equal societal or cultural status amounts to appears to be rather simplistic.

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#7 Old 09-17-2010, 06:27 PM
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Women usually dont get paid the same amount as men for the same jobs. Women tend to work harder in the business world because its a boys club. Even in products is there a bias: women's deodarant costs the same as mens, however its half the size. Are you a women or man?

I am of the opinion that the glass ceiling shattered a long time ago.

There are women CEOs, billionaires, And women at high points of government in America. The only thing we haven't had is a woman president and we'll have one of those some day.

Women overtook men in being the more educated sex in 2009 (in the U.S. anyway). What more must we do before we are considered equal?

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#8 Old 09-17-2010, 08:27 PM
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I am of the opinion that the glass ceiling shattered a long time ago.

There are women CEOs, billionaires, And women at high points of government in America. The only thing we haven't had is a woman president and we'll have one of those some day.

Women overtook men in being the more educated sex in 2009 (in the U.S. anyway). What more must we do before we are considered equal?

That's like saying that because America has finally elected a black president, there is no more racism in the country.

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#9 Old 09-18-2010, 05:32 AM
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That's like saying that because America has finally elected a black president, there is no more racism in the country.

Of course there is still racism and there always will be, but it's not mainstream anymore, women are equal under the law.

What more would you have us do?

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#10 Old 09-18-2010, 06:19 AM
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Of course there is still racism and there always will be, but it's not mainstream anymore, women are equal under the law.

What more would you have us do?

This discussion is really off-topic, but you clearly don't understand the concept of patriarchy, like, at all. Maybe a new thread should be started, because the Gary Francione conversation is interesting and I'd hate to see it derailed.
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#11 Old 09-18-2010, 08:48 AM
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This discussion is really off-topic, but you clearly don't understand the concept of patriarchy, like, at all.

Feel free to explain it to me.

This is my definition.

Patriarchy is a social system in which the role of the father is central to social organization, and where fathers hold authority over women, children and property. Historically, the principle of patriarchy has been basic to the social, legal, political and economic organization in Hebrew, Greek, Roman, Indian and Chinese cultures, and has had a deep influence on most aspects of modern civilization.

I don't think this describes the United States anymore.

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#12 Old 09-18-2010, 09:07 AM
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Looks like someone here, and I'm not gonna say who, has an anthropological and a political notion of patriarchy mixed up.

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#13 Old 09-18-2010, 09:09 AM
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Feel free to explain it to me.

This is my definition.

Patriarchy is a social system in which the role of the father is central to social organization, and where fathers hold authority over women, children and property. Historically, the principle of patriarchy has been basic to the social, legal, political and economic organization in Hebrew, Greek, Roman, Indian and Chinese cultures, and has had a deep influence on most aspects of modern civilization.

I don't think this describes the United States anymore.

I think you mean that's Wikipedia's definition.
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#14 Old 09-18-2010, 09:34 AM
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I think you mean that's Wikipedia's definition.

That's the one I'm using, yes.

Patriarchy is a social system in which the role of the father is central to social organization, and where fathers hold authority over women, children and property.

The above isn't very descriptive of the United States. There are many many fatherless households and homes with female bread winners. Women are as free as any man.

Now in places such as Afghanistan where women aren't allowed to go outside unattended by a male member of the household, there you have a patriarchy.

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#15 Old 09-18-2010, 09:35 AM
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Did you read what Sevenseas said? A patriarchal society in the context Francione uses it is, to put it in the simplest terms, one where men have the privilege.
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#16 Old 09-18-2010, 09:38 AM
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Of course there is still racism and there always will be, but it's not mainstream anymore, women are equal under the law.

Non-whites are equal under the law, too.

Equal under the law and equal in people's minds/actions are entirely different.

Also I think racism is still quite mainstream, but not necessarily towards black Americans, at least not in areas I've been in. It's not socially acceptable in most places to hate blacks, but it's normal to discriminate against latinos and muslims, for example.
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#17 Old 09-18-2010, 09:44 AM
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Did you read what Sevenseas said? A patriarchal society in the context Francione uses it is, to put it in the simplest terms, one where men have the privilege.

Yes I did.

I find the notion that men are "privileged" in the United States to be absurd.

I'd argue this point to Francione's face himself.

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#18 Old 09-18-2010, 09:51 AM
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Non-whites are equal under the law, too.

Equal under the law and equal in people's minds/actions are entirely different.

You have a right to be treated equally under the law. You don't have any sort of right to be held in high esteem in everyone else's minds.

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#19 Old 09-18-2010, 10:02 AM
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You have a right to be treated equally under the law. You don't have any sort of right to be held in high esteem in everyone else's minds.

...which simplistic kind of reductionism (reducing ethical and political questions into questions about legal status) is one good argument showing the limits of libertarianism.

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#20 Old 09-18-2010, 10:26 AM
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...which simplistic kind of reductionism (reducing ethical and political questions into questions about legal status) is one good argument showing the limits of libertarianism.

Are you suggesting there should be a mandate that no-one think discriminatory thoughts?

Look, there are going to be racist, sexists, and bigots of every other stripe forever and ever and ever and ever. They aren't going away, and furthermore they have a right to whatever set of beliefs as long as they don't violate someone else's rights. They have been marginalized as it is, what more do you need?

If you're waiting for a world without these kinds of people, keep waiting.

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#21 Old 09-18-2010, 10:30 AM
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Sevenseas,
I'm not a libertarian but I don't think it's fair to attack the idea simply because one libertarian can't seems to understand the feminist definition of patriarchy and thinks that notion that American men are privileged is "absurd." A quick google search found me some feminist libertarians:
http://www.alf.org/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Individualist_feminism

JABB, What say you about the fact that many American women do not have real access to birth control?
http://feminist.org/rrights/contracep.html
Or how about this:
Quote:
the likelihood of a woman dying in childbirth in the USA is five times greater than in Greece, four times greater than in Germany, and three times greater than in Spain. More than two women die every day in the USA from pregnancy-related causes. Maternal deaths
are only the tip of the iceberg. Severe complications that result in a woman nearly
dying, known as a “near miss”, increased by 25 per cent between 1998 and 2005.
During 2004 and 2005, 68,433 women nearly died in childbirth in the USA.5 More
than a third of all women who give birth in the USA – 1.7 million women each year –
experience some type of complication that has an adverse effect on their health.

http://www.amnesty.org/en/library/as...10072010en.pdf
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#22 Old 09-18-2010, 10:44 AM
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Psychotherapist John Bradshaw's clear-sighted defini*tion of patriarchy in Creating Love is a useful one: "The dic*tionary defines `patriarchy' as a 'social organization marked by the supremacy of the father in the clan or family in both domestic and religious functions.. . Patriarchy is charac*terized by male domination and power. He states further that "patriarchal rules still govern most of the world's religious, school systems, and family systems." Describing the most damaging of these rules, Bradshaw lists "blind obedience-the foundation upon which patriarchy stands; the repression of all emotions except fear; the destruction of individual willpower; and the repression of thinking whenever it departs from the authority figure's way of thinking." Patriarchal thinking shapes the values of our culture. We are socialized into this system, females as well as males. Most of us learned patriarchal attitudes in our family of origin, and they were usually taught to us by our mothers. These attitudes were reinforced in schools and religious institutions.

The contemporary presence of female-headed house*holds has led many people to assume that children in these households are not learning patriarchal values because no male is present. They assume that men are the sole teachers of patriarchal thinking. Yet many female-headed households endorse and promote patriarchal thinking with far greater passion than two-parent households. Because they do not have an experiential reality to chal*lenge false fantasies of gender roles, women in such house*holds are far more likely to idealize the patriarchal male role and patriarchal men than are women who live with patriarchal men every day. We need to highlight the role women play in perpetuating and sustaining patriarchal culture so that we will recognize patriarchy as a system women and men support equally, even if men receive more rewards from that system. Dismantling and changing patriarchal culture is work that men and women must do together.

Clearly we cannot dismantle a system as long as we engage in collective denial about its impact on our lives. Patriarchy requires male dominance by any means neces*sary, hence it supports, promotes, and condones sexist vio*lence. We hear the most about sexist violence in public dis*courses about rape and abuse by domestic partners. But the most common forms of patriarchal violence are those that take place in the home between patriarchal parents and children. The point of such violence is usually to reinforce a dominator model, in which the authority figure is deemed ruler over those without power and given the right to maintain that rule through practices of subjugation, subordination, and submission.

Keeping males and females from telling the truth about what happens to them in families is one way patriarchal culture is maintained. A great majority of individuals enforce an unspoken rule in the culture as a whole that demands we keep the secrets of patriarchy, thereby protect*ing the rule of the father. This rule of silence is upheld when the culture refuses everyone easy access even to the word "patriarchy." Most children do not learn what to call this system of institutionalized gender roles, so rarely do we name it in everyday speech. This silence promotes denial. And how can we organize to challenge and change a system that cannot be named?

http://arizona.indymedia.org/news/2004/07/20613.php

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I'd argue this point to Francione's face himself.

ooooh... to Francione's face!

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#23 Old 09-18-2010, 10:46 AM
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Of course there is still racism and there always will be, but it's not mainstream anymore, women are equal under the law.

What more would you have us do?

Equal rights by law? If so, then why are the states not ratifying the Equal Rights Amendment? Wht can't we put into law that men and women are equal if we already are. The ERA is intended to guarantee that equal rights under any federal, state, or local law could not be denied on account of sex.

Section 1. Equality of rights under the law shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any State on account of sex.
Section 2. The Congress shall have the power to enforce, by appropriate legislation, the provisions of this article.
Section 3. This amendment shall take effect two years after the date of ratification.

The U.S. Congress passed the ERA in 1972, but it set a seven year time limit for ratification. During this time 38 states needed to ratify the amendment. Congress later added a three year extension, but by June 30, 1982 the amendment was three states short of full ratification. Then in 1992, Congress added the Madison Amendment to the Constitution. The Madison Amendment was passed by Congress in 1789. The ratification of this 27th amendment, 203 years after it was passed by Congress, set a precedent which, when applied to the Equal Rights Amendment, means that the ERA is still legally viable and before the states. According to this legal opinion, full ratification can be achieved once three more states ratify the ERA.

So, why can't teh states just pass this law uless laws are not equal for both genders...

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#24 Old 09-18-2010, 10:47 AM
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Of course there is still racism and there always will be, but it's not mainstream anymore, women are equal under the law...

That's sad when people say there always will be racism...or sexism for that matter. In today's world where most societies are multicultural there are no basis for racism. Our world has shrunk, and some borders (like all of Europe) are not even regulated, which is to encourage multiculturalism. Today, racism is a learned behaviour!

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...What more would you have us do?

stop instilling fear onto your population! It's crawling up north and it's really annoying!!
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#25 Old 09-18-2010, 11:02 AM
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can we make it a poll with only two options?

Yes, it's still a patriarchy
No, and I'm male

cry havoc! and let slip the dogs of war.
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#26 Old 09-18-2010, 11:11 AM
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JABB, What say you about the fact that many American women do not have real access to birth control?
http://feminist.org/rrights/contracep.html
Or how about this:

http://www.amnesty.org/en/library/as...10072010en.pdf

Difficult to get birth control in America?!?! You go to the store and buy it! Kinda like food! They give away condoms in high school for crying out loud! There are newer and better methods of birth control in the U.S. all the time! I fail to see any sort of birth control crisis.

Plus I think that the feminist.org link you provided makes a false assertion.

That assertion is, "All women and men have a right to safe, effective, affordable and accessible contraception." You have NO such right. You are not owed birth control just because you exist.

You have every right to the birth control you can go out and purchase, or otherwise legally and ethically obtain.

As for the second quote, It's sad, I mean that sincerely, but irrelevant. I don't think birth-mortality discrepancies between completely different nations is any sort of measure to judge the ultimate patriarchal status of the U.S. or any other country. There are way too many other factors in play to make that kind of judgement off those stats.

As for women in general, I think they are every bit man's equal in terms of moral worth and as far as rights go.

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#27 Old 09-18-2010, 11:15 AM
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Equal rights by law? If so, then why are the states not ratifying the Equal Rights Amendment? Wht can't we put into law that men and women are equal if we already are.

Simple, because it would be redundant and adding extra layer of legal red tape would not make them any more free.

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#28 Old 09-18-2010, 11:35 AM
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Difficult to get birth control in America?!?! You go to the store and buy it! Kinda like food! They give away condoms in high school for crying out loud! There are newer and better methods of birth control in the U.S. all the time! I fail to see any sort of birth control crisis.

wow. do you live in america? i guess not.

Quote:
That assertion is, "All women and men have a right to safe, effective, affordable and accessible contraception." You have NO such right. You are not owed birth control just because you exist.

You have every right to the birth control you can go out and purchase, or otherwise legally and ethically obtain.

which, you know, if it's not legal for you to go out and purchase, despite the fact that you have the dollars...
Quote:
As for the second quote, It's sad, I mean that sincerely, but irrelevant. I don't think birth-mortality discrepancies between completely different nations is any sort of measure to judge the ultimate patriarchal status of the U.S. or any other country. There are way too many other factors in play to make that kind of judgement off those stats.

As for women in general, I think they are every bit man's equal in terms of moral worth and as far as rights go.

do you know Memphis has a higher infant mortality rate than most parts of Africa? do you know that the united states has one of the worst, if not the worst maternal mortality rate of any westernized country?

as for your last statement -- it doesn't seem that american society believes so.

cry havoc! and let slip the dogs of war.
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#29 Old 09-18-2010, 11:35 AM
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Sevenseas,
I'm not a libertarian but I don't think it's fair to attack the idea simply because one libertarian can't seems to understand the feminist definition of patriarchy and thinks that notion that American men are privileged is "absurd." A quick google search found me some feminist libertarians:
http://www.alf.org/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Individualist_feminism

I'm not saying there can be no libertarian feminists, especially with the large scope of political views that fit under the label 'feminist', just that when you have a strong emphasis on legal rights, and especially on negative rights, your political language won't do a very good job of expressing all the different ways in which people are being discriminated and in which their freedoms are curtailed.

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made of weak and useless men"

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#30 Old 09-18-2010, 11:40 AM
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especially if men control your access to said birth control, abortions, pregnancy services. how is control over the reproductive aspect of a woman's life NOT patriarchy?

cry havoc! and let slip the dogs of war.
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