Helen Thomas ends her career with inflammatory anti-zionist remarks - VeggieBoards
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#1 Old 06-08-2010, 12:22 AM
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[youtube]5X9mXGxVcUU[/youtube]



this comes after some sharp remarks regarding the israeli reaction to the gaza flotilla

[youtube]i6cj86ZWR_U[/youtube]

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#2 Old 06-08-2010, 12:32 AM
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helen thomas has the same birthday as obama.



they must think the same.



obama must also be anti semetic.

cry havoc! and let slip the dogs of war.
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#3 Old 06-08-2010, 12:36 AM
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maybe obama has a secret identity, where he gets to vent and not always play it cool.

[youtube]lVGWdLsAoBA[/youtube]

her inaugural question was pretty slick, hey do you think israel has nuclear weapons, do you know?

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#4 Old 06-08-2010, 12:52 AM
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i thought he got to vent as that extra in the whoomp there it is video.



i hope he hasn't quit smoking for srs.



sorry, derailing your thread.



i don't understand how some people are given pass after pass and some are instantly dismissed. where is the consistency?

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#5 Old 06-08-2010, 12:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Kenickie View Post

i thought he got to vent as that extra in the whoomp there it is video.



i hope he hasn't quit smoking for srs.



sorry, derailing your thread. i also notice that your thread has under gone a title change. was anti semetic too anti semetic?

because i misspelled semetic and i know that falafel and indian summer gets super pissed over **** like that. and i love them so much. or rather i don't want to get the subject derailed on such things.



ETA: yes i do think you may be crossing the line from anti-zionist to anti-semitic when you're suggesting that jews can't be in palestine. that they should be herded back to germany in poland. they should go where they want and they are here and queer and we'll have to get used to it. but that might be another discussion.

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#6 Old 06-08-2010, 01:40 AM
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Yes... let's try to ignore the fact that the the land they are on was swash buckled away from the Palestinians - the people who incidentally lived there - and given to Israel. Hardly seems fair under any circumstances. And to top it off, Palestinians who live there now face persecution. If I were in the Palestinian's shoes, I would want them to give the land back and get out as well.
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#7 Old 06-08-2010, 03:01 AM
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swash buckled



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You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

Kenickie! tell you've seen this movie now?

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#8 Old 06-08-2010, 03:41 AM
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I don't know this story. I watched the youtubes. "Get the hell out of Palestine" doesn't sound controversial to me, assuming she's talking about the occupied territories. That they should go to Poland and Germany etc... Well, if these are people currently living in settlements in the occupied territories? It's my understanding that a lot of the Jews living in the settlements are recent immigrants to the area, especially from Russia. I don't know, I think I need someone to explain in detail what is allegedly antisemitic in her statements.

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#9 Old 06-08-2010, 03:48 AM
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If for example she would have told Muslims to get of out the UK, or Christians to get out of Egypt, then people would have taken it more seriously wouldn't they? I don't think people who are in the public and especially if they are associated with a government should be let off with remarks against others. That said, she could have made remarks which are deemed much more prejudice.
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#10 Old 06-08-2010, 04:22 AM
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My dad held onto his wits until well into his 80s. By then he was saying things far loopier than this. I don't think any of us will want to be remembered by the things we might blurt out when we are nearly 90. By then, that filter doesn't work so well, that keeps us from saying every random, inappropriate thing that pops into our minds.
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#11 Old 06-08-2010, 04:41 AM
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#12 Old 06-08-2010, 05:45 AM
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As a child of immigrants Helen Thomas should have known better from personal experience what it means to tell people to get out of their home because they may have come from somewhere else a generation or more ago. Here's another few problems with what she said: a significant portion of Israelis come from Arab lands, some Israelis have been in in Israel for generations and generations before the Holocaust never having set foot in Europe, and lastly Israelis are not some caricature of American Ashkenazi Jews, or old-time Polish Jews, they are a distinct (largely sephardic-based) culture. People keep referring to Israel like it suddenly appeared out of nowhere in 1948, forgetting that Tel Aviv's 100th birthday was a year or two ago.
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#13 Old 06-08-2010, 05:52 AM
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As a child of immigrants Helen Thomas should have known better from personal experience what it means to tell people to get out of their home because they may have come from somewhere else a generation or more ago. Here's another few problems with what she said: a significant portion of Israelis come from Arab lands, some Israelis have been in in Israel for generations and generations before the Holocaust never having set foot in Europe, and lastly Israelis are not some caricature of American Ashkenazi Jews, or old-time Polish Jews, they are a distinct (largely sephardic-based) culture. People keep referring to Israel like it suddenly appeared out of nowhere in 1948, forgetting that Tel Aviv's 100th birthday was a year or two ago.

I believe she was talking about Palestine (i.e. the occupied territories), not Israel?

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#14 Old 06-08-2010, 06:19 AM
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I believe she was talking about Palestine (i.e. the occupied territories), not Israel?

This seems to be a point of debate. I believe that she was talking about Israel the country as a whole because of her saying they should "go back to Poland and Germany" since this is a statement about all Israelis, not simply the IDF. This is partly why it is so frustrating when the NYTimes and other papers only quote the first half of what she says.
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#15 Old 06-08-2010, 06:37 AM
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This seems to be a point of debate. I believe that she was talking about Israel the country as a whole because of her saying they should "go back to Poland and Germany" since this is a statement about all Israelis, not simply the IDF. This is partly why it is so frustrating when the NYTimes and other papers only quote the first half of what she says.

Well, try watching the first youtube posted in the first post in the thread. This is what I got:

Interviewer: "Any comments about Israel? [...]"

Thomas: "Tell them to get the hell out of Palestine. Remember, these people are occupied and it's their land. It's not German and not Poland ..."

Interviewer: "So where should they go?"

Thomas: "They should go home."

Interviewer: "Where is home?"

Thomas: "Poland. Germany."



Edit: Apparently, the video cut her off, as she continued to name places they could go back to: http://www.balloon-juice.com/2010/06/08/you-got-played/

(Thanks to the people who cleared this up later the thread.)

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#16 Old 06-08-2010, 10:15 AM
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First off, lets correct the misquotation here. She didn't say they should go back to "poland and germany" as the video clip implies, she said that they should go back to "Poland, Germany, America and wherever else they came from" - she was cut off. After saying "remember, these people are occupied, its their land"



Here is the original Rabbi Live clip:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aeqb8h0I-Bg







Now, I don't agree with Thomas remarks that Israelis should emigrate (though I do agree they should get out of Palestine), I think they should end their racist immigration laws and allow all the Palestinian refugees to return home, as citizens of a secular state for both Arabs and Jews equal under the law, and return all of the land and property that was stolen...they should have to move off of stolen land elsewhere in Palestine/Israel, except for the open-air prisons that is Gaza, there is enough enough room for everyone if not for Israeli racism.



Thomas remarks need more context to be treated more fairly though.



Thomas didn't just out of the blue say that the Israelis should go back to Germany, Poland, and America (why, incidentally, does everyone forget that those were the three countries she named, instead of just Germany and Poland??) and wherever else they came from...



Thomas was asked about Israel.



She said it should get the hell out of Palestine - that they are occupied and its their land.



The person informally interviewing her asked where they should go.



She said in a very off the cuff manner, like she wasn't really thinking about it, that they should go back to Germany, Poland, America, or wherever else they came from. This did not sound like the calculated political statement of an anti-semite but of someone who was understandably pissed off at zionist colonialism and was trying (failing?) to think on her feet.



Bare in mind, that Helen Thomas is *older than Israel.* Israel was established when she was well into her adulthood. She remembers the waves of Zionist colonial immigration to Israel. And that is what it was.



Of course there is a native Jewish population in Palestine many of whom, incidentally, vehemently opposed Zionism, and had lived peacefully with the rest of the native Arab population for centuries. Many Palestinian rights advocates such as the PLO and Fatah do not consider these Jewish people Israeli in the same sense as the Zionist colonists - they are legally Israeli as far as Israel is concerned, but the native Mizrahi Jews have also been historically oppressed by Zionists in practice and Arafat for instance considered them part of the Palestinian people. Its unlikely that Thomas was referring to them (they've always been in Palestine). The political class that dominates Israeli politics, in fact, the ruling class among Jewish Israelis, is in fact largely European, largely of very recent origin. (this is not of course to say that I agree with Thomas that they should go back to Europe and America, I don't, but that her position has a context that isn't being well explained)



Israel's racist immigration policy bans Arab immigrants while allowing any Jewish person (defined by ethnicity, not religion, atheists can make use of it too) anywhere in the world to become a citizen of Israel upon setting foot in Israel. This is done to ensure an ethic majority of Jewish people. At the same time, the state was founded by evicting Arab people from their homes, and now creating prison-like bantustan's in Gaza and the West Bank, punishing the local, indigenous population for the crime of being the wrong race.



Remember also that Helen Thomas is Arab, and she grew up and lived the beginning of her adult life while the Arab nation was under colonial rule by the French and British and being carved up. She is said to be of Lebanese origin, but then, there wasn't a Lebanon for the first two decades of her life either. People forget the colonial history and context of Zionism, Israel, and the division of the Arab nation into puppet states of the west. Helen Thomas doesn't, she watched it, she wasn't even a child at the time.





If an African reporter had, in 1980, been asked her opinion of South Africa, and said that the Afrikaners should go back to Holland, Germany, England, and wherever else they came from...she might still be wrong.



But I highly doubt any progressive people would insist she was racist against white people. Or demand her resignation. I think we'd be mature enough to understand where the anti-colonial impulse was coming from.







Why can't we do the same here? My sense is that anti-Arab racism is so pervasive that people don't even think about it. Thats why we can leap to thinking "anti-semitism" without even considering the anti-Arab racism that underpins this entire media scandal.
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#17 Old 06-08-2010, 10:23 AM
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Yes... let's try to ignore the fact that the the land they are on was swash buckled away from the Palestinians - the people who incidentally lived there - and given to Israel. Hardly seems fair under any circumstances. And to top it off, Palestinians who live there now face persecution. If I were in the Palestinian's shoes, I would want them to give the land back and get out as well.



^ This.
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#18 Old 06-08-2010, 11:39 AM
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I don't know, I think I need someone to explain in detail what is allegedly antisemitic in her statements.

go ahead and change the thread title to the same as the one in the first post.



I reported the post and asked a mod to do this last night. you need to make me a mod.



as i said before I don't wish to go on forever about anti-semitic versus anti-zionist.

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#19 Old 06-08-2010, 12:37 PM
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Yes... let's try to ignore the fact that the the land they are on was swash buckled away from the Palestinians - the people who incidentally lived there - and given to Israel. Hardly seems fair under any circumstances. And to top it off, Palestinians who live there now face persecution. If I were in the Palestinian's shoes, I would want them to give the land back and get out as well.



I'm in full agreement. Free Palestine.

Tam! RUGH!
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#20 Old 06-08-2010, 04:04 PM
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All I can say to suchgreatheight is that we're reading very different history books, probably a little bit of both is right but neither of us is going to convince the other and I respect your right to your opinion. Helen Thomas' comments can also be interpreted in a lot of ways depending on your view and I do want to say I understand your perspective on her comments and I think it's a very valid way to interpret them, but can you also see why her comments may have stirred an emotional response among people . As well that other people from different viewpoints can also experience different but also valid opinions on her comments?



To those saying "Free Palestine" I hope for the same thing, a free Palestinian people, within the context of the reality that Israel exists, is populated, and is a Jewish nation that not going anywhere. Let's not argue over the details of what could or could not be done to create peace in this thread, after all it's outside the scope of the topic and is sure to do little more than create tension and anger among us. Rather lets all acknowledge that there is no shortage on either side for opportunity for peace, both sides have at times worked towards and squandered such opportunities, and that both sides should hope and work towards peace and may it come soon.
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#21 Old 06-08-2010, 05:23 PM
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Ill just wait for the autotune version to come out.
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#22 Old 06-08-2010, 08:14 PM
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First off, lets correct the misquotation here. She didn't say they should go back to "poland and germany" as the video clip implies, she said that they should go back to "Poland, Germany, America and wherever else they came from" - she was cut off. After saying "remember, these people are occupied, its their land"



Here is the original Rabbi Live clip:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aeqb8h0I-Bg

And here's the original rabbi, doing his best (as I can determine) Cheech Marin circa '77 impression:

http://www.mediaite.com/online/rabbi...al-video-past/

Keep on freepin' on

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#23 Old 06-08-2010, 10:46 PM
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Wow suchgreatheight that was an excellent post. I don't have much to add to that. I would probably say that the following video gives a clue as to why so many people are anti-Israel: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yTPdIIfmeNE
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#24 Old 06-08-2010, 10:50 PM
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Wow suchgreatheight that was an excellent post.

maybe the compost heap and other off topic forums should be off limits to someone until they make a few posts. SPAM

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#25 Old 06-08-2010, 11:21 PM
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maybe the compost heap and other off topic forums should be off limits to someone until they make a few posts. SPAM



LOL! What does that mean? Are you saying suchgreateight paid me to say that or that I'm suchgreateight or something? Whether you agree or not you have to admit it was a well thought out and well articulated post.
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#26 Old 06-08-2010, 11:22 PM
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#27 Old 06-09-2010, 02:04 AM
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go ahead and change the thread title to the same as the one in the first post.



I reported the post and asked a mod to do this last night.

They tried, but the board software was so flabbergasted by the antisemitic allegation that it got completely stuck.

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you need to make me a mod.

No comment!



Quote:
as i said before I don't wish to go on forever about anti-semitic versus anti-zionist.

Let's just agree that they are two different and unrelated terms.



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Originally Posted by nycoffee View Post

Helen Thomas' comments can also be interpreted in a lot of ways depending on your view and I do want to say I understand your perspective on her comments and I think it's a very valid way to interpret them, but can you also see why her comments may have stirred an emotional response among people .

Personally, I'm struggling to understand. Is it something about Jews going back to Poland which somehow is being interpreted as "going back to Auschwitz?" (And ignoring the other countries she mentioned?) Come on, anyone who's seen the whole interview would see that this is not what she meant at all.



This whole story makes it seem like there is an ongoing witch-hunt in the US against anyone criticising the policies of Israel.

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#28 Old 06-09-2010, 08:34 AM
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This whole story makes it seem like there is an ongoing witch-hunt in the US against anyone criticising the policies of Israel.



for the first time in my entire VB career, I'm agreeing with Karl.



holy ****.

cry havoc! and let slip the dogs of war.
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#29 Old 06-09-2010, 09:05 AM
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Personally, I'm struggling to understand. Is it something about Jews going back to Poland which somehow is being interpreted as "going back to Auschwitz?" (And ignoring the other countries she mentioned?) Come on, anyone who's seen the whole interview would see that this is not what she meant at all.



I don't think she meant anything about going back to Auschwitz. She meant that all Jews should go back to the countries from whence they or their families came to the Middle East (I'm not saying Israel, because obviously she thinks Israel shouldn't exist.)



And yes, I find that statement to be not only anti-Zionist, I find it to be anti-Semitic because it chooses to ignore the entire context in which Jews came to Israel at the end of WWII. It wasn't "merely" that millions of them had been systematically exterminated in a planned, determined genocide in which many of their neighbors (including nonGerman neighbors) willingly cooperated. It was also that, when they returned from the camps, there were mass murders because their former neighbors didn't want them back, didn't want to risk losing the property that had been confiscated from the Jews. Nobody wanted the Jewish refugees - not the countries where they were born, not the U.S. (which throughout held firm to its immigration quotas, despite knowing what was happening to the Jews). In effect, what Thomas said was, "You should have stayed where you were, amid people who practiced genocide on you, and who, even after the war was over, killed you because you were Jewish and thus despised." A great thing for a child of immigrants to say.





So, while there is much about Israel's policies that is objectionable, and many of their actions are despicable, to say that the state of Israel should not exist and that all Jews should go back to from whence they came (and yeah, all those countries are going to say, "Welcome home!") is to basically say to those WWII and post WWII refugees, "Tough sh*t - you're on your own."



I also agree with JoanKennedy that, by the time one reaches Thomas' age, the filter between brain and tongue isn't working so well anymore.
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#30 Old 06-09-2010, 09:26 AM
 
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go ahead and change the thread title to the same as the one in the first post.



I reported the post and asked a mod to do this last night. you need to make me a mod.



as i said before I don't wish to go on forever about anti-semitic versus anti-zionist.



Fixed title. The report came through and I swear one of my fellow oranges said they'd changed it, but yeah.

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