Helen Thomas ends her career with inflammatory anti-zionist remarks - Page 3 - VeggieBoards
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#61 Old 06-09-2010, 07:57 PM
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Any American Jew that moved to Israel post-WWII should be made to return to the United States if Israel was ever to be dismantled, I think. Any German Jew should go back to Germany. Any Polish Jew should go back to Poland. Et cetera, et cetera...



Ok, putting aside all of my emotions and everything I want to say in response to this because it would just be a mess, I just want to ask what you propose to do with people who are, for example, the child of a 2nd generation Israeli with roots in Morocco and an Israeli who is half Russian-Jewish and half American-Jewish? That's a made up example but I do have friends who are mixtures of English and Russian or Argentinian and Belgian, and those 2 specific friends are also mixtures of families who have been in Israel for a range of 1-4 generations. Where should they go? They are Israeli just like I am American even if my great grandparents came from Eastern Europe.
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#62 Old 06-09-2010, 10:15 PM
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Any American Jew that moved to Israel post-WWII should be made to return to the United States if Israel was ever to be dismantled, I think. Any German Jew should go back to Germany. Any Polish Jew should go back to Poland. Et cetera, et cetera...



And those who can prove residency in the area before the formation of Israel as a nation should be allowed to stay.



Kellye, why don't you go back to wherever your ancestors came from so this land can be returned to the Native Americans? They're living in an occupied country too. Seriously. What prevents you?



I also think that you're very unclear about the history of Palestine, that this is an ancient conflict, and maybe this will help

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Israel

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#63 Old 06-09-2010, 10:21 PM
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yeah grasshopper why go to germany, poland and america? is there a big difference in that statement or just lastworditis?



you truncated her statement to conform with your analysis, not me. jeez, touchy touchy!



I really think she was referring to the settlements in the West Bank and the Israeli offer of 'right of return' and settlement of jewish people. of course large numbers came from Poland and Germany and also a significant amount from the USA. it is not as if 'going back' to any of the three would be dangerous. your reading of the statement I think might be rather slanted.



I don't know if I am correct, but your seeming confidence in your take on it appears to be misplaced. Israel has been making it clear through their actdions that they do not intend to give back territory that they are occupying--their right-wing has pushed the settlements. in any event, I think this is much ado about almost nothing.
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#64 Old 06-09-2010, 10:41 PM
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I really think she was referring to the settlements in the West Bank and the Israeli offer of 'right of return' and settlement of jewish people. of course large numbers came from Poland and Germany and also a significant amount from the USA. it is not as if 'going back' to any of the three would be dangerous. your reading of the statement I think might be rather slanted.



It's been over 60 years. What percentage of the population was born in Israel?



I would like to go back to where my ancestors came from; however most countries have immigration policies that would prevent me from claiming citizenship based on my grandparents or whomever having emigrated from there.



If you're only referring to people who themselves emigrated in the past few years, o.k., but otherwise it's a very odd thing to say. What prevents you from leaving the occupied U.S. and returning to where your ancestors are from?



And I do believe that many jewish people do not feel safe in europe.

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#65 Old 06-09-2010, 10:44 PM
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you truncated her statement to conform with your analysis, not me. jeez, touchy touchy!



I really think she was referring to the settlements in the West Bank and the Israeli offer of 'right of return' and settlement of jewish people. of course large numbers came from Poland and Germany and also a significant amount from the USA. it is not as if 'going back' to any of the three would be dangerous. your reading of the statement I think might be rather slanted.

no i do not mean to suggest that she is saying they should go back to a concentration camp or something. germany poland russia america whatever. i believe the holocaust should be mentioned with caution because some people use it to justify israeli policy when it only explains part of their depth of feeling about israel. one of the ideas behind zionism is that if the jews don't go somewhere they can form a majority they are potentially in danger facing the tyranny of the majority in a democracy, pervasive anti-jewish feeling down the centuries, etc. so to many they will always wonder if there is a greater danger in europe or america than in the one jewish majority state in the world.



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Israel has been making it clear through their actdions that they do not intend to give back territory that they are occupying--their right-wing has pushed the settlements.

i think some kind of land swap and east jerusalem as a capital of the palestinian state are almost inevitable but something has to be done to make a credible security situation for east jerusalem. negotiations with two different palestinian governments complicate things ever greater. for a few years now the day of peace seems farther and farther in the future.

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#66 Old 06-09-2010, 11:10 PM
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And I do believe that many jewish people do not feel safe in europe.



And that's no wonder. For centuries, Germany was a sort of safe haven (as compared to other countries, where it was more dangerous to be Jewish) for Jews, and then wham! almost overnight.... I gather a lot of Jews who might have made it out didn't even try at first, because it was unimaginable that something like that could happen in Germany, of all countries.



For those of you who are younger, all of that may seem like ancient history, but it happened in the lifetime of Jews living today. That's pretty damn immediate.
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#67 Old 06-09-2010, 11:23 PM
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And that's no wonder. For centuries, Germany was a sort of safe haven (as compared to other countries, where it was more dangerous to be Jewish) for Jews, and then wham! almost overnight.... I gather a lot of Jews who might have made it out didn't even try at first, because it was unimaginable that something like that could happen in Germany, of all countries.



For those of you who are younger, all of that may seem like ancient history, but it happened in the lifetime of Jews living today. That's pretty damn immediate.

it's the tyranny of the majority, germany's brief democracy that ended in voting hitler into power. without strong constitutional protections minorities have actually been safer under benevolent non-populist monarchs and dictators.

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#68 Old 06-09-2010, 11:52 PM
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Constitutional protections are only as good as the ongoing will of the people to enforce them. Constitutions can be amended by the people, and even in the absence of amendment, it's not as though the courts have the physical power to enforce the constitution.



Look at what happened to the Japanese and the Native Americans in the U.S. Worse can happen; it's just a matter of getting people riled up and focusing their fear, anger and paranoia on one group.
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#69 Old 06-10-2010, 05:57 AM
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And I do believe that many jewish people do not feel safe in europe.

I will say I have taken off my star of david/hamsa necklace when I've traveled to Europe, which I've done many times and have had wonderful experiences and hope to go back BUT I have also seen swastikas painted across Europe, something that shook me to my core and that was very frightening.
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#70 Old 06-10-2010, 09:24 AM
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It's been over 60 years. What percentage of the population was born in Israel?



I would like to go back to where my ancestors came from; however most countries have immigration policies that would prevent me from claiming citizenship based on my grandparents or whomever having emigrated from there.



If you're only referring to people who themselves emigrated in the past few years, o.k., but otherwise it's a very odd thing to say. What prevents you from leaving the occupied U.S. and returning to where your ancestors are from?



And I do believe that many jewish people do not feel safe in europe.



I didn't mean to suggest that there was nothing wrong with her statement. Rather I believe much has been read into what she said to the point of ridiculousness.
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#71 Old 06-10-2010, 09:57 AM
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Not "feeling safe" in Europe today is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard, Europe is the safest place in the world and Nazism has been thoroughly and absolutely stamped out into oblivion - antisemitism into irrelevance except as the form of prejudice most hated by the establishment on both the left and the right. The notion that Israelis have any contemporary legitimate fear of persecution in Europe is crazy and utterly unfounded.



What is crazier is to mobilize the unfounded fear of hypothetical persecution of Israeli's in Europe, to justify the actual and present persecution of Palestinians in Palestine and the terror that Israel, a nuclear weapon state and local military hegemon, casts over the middle east.



This is not to say that Israelis should go "back" to Europe - I think they should rather learn to live with the native population as equals not oppressors, but trying to continue to portray Israelis as perpetual, eternal victims, and use that ideology of victimhood to justify their victimization of other (non-white and thus less sympathetic to racist westerners) populations is absurd.
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#72 Old 06-10-2010, 10:13 AM
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Not "feeling safe" in Europe today is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard, Europe is the safest place in the world and Nazism has been thoroughly and absolutely stamped out into oblivion - antisemitism into irrelevance except as the form of prejudice most hated by the establishment on both the left and the right. The notion that Israelis have any contemporary legitimate fear of persecution in Europe is crazy and utterly unfounded.



What is crazier is to mobilize the unfounded fear of hypothetical persecution of Israeli's in Europe, to justify the actual and present persecution of Palestinians in Palestine and the terror that Israel, a nuclear weapon state and local military hegemon, casts over the middle east.



This is not to say that Israelis should go "back" to Europe - I think they should rather learn to live with the native population as equals not oppressors, but trying to continue to portray Israelis as perpetual, eternal victims, and use that ideology of victimhood to justify their victimization of other (non-white and thus less sympathetic to racist westerners) populations is absurd.



^ Couldn't have said it better myself.
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#73 Old 06-10-2010, 11:00 AM
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I will say I have taken off my star of david/hamsa necklace when I've traveled to Europe, which I've done many times and have had wonderful experiences and hope to go back BUT I have also seen swastikas painted across Europe, something that shook me to my core and that was very frightening.



In Germany, Poland, and Hungary, with very few exceptions, public display of a swastika is illegal.



It's a pretty common symbol in the far east, for different reasons. Also, in America, you'll find the symbol on a lot of older stuff, due to both its pre-Nazi European usage, and American Indian usage.
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#74 Old 06-10-2010, 12:31 PM
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It's really not your place, Kellye and suchgreatheights, to tell me how I should feel. Das, I saw it spray painted on buildings and sidewalks all over Spain (particularly in Barcelona and Madrid) and in Stockholm. It's not that I don't feel safe in Europe, I do, it was just recommended to me not to wear my star in Spain or Russia in particular and I chose to carry that over to other countries. I loved my trips to Europe and I obviously felt safe enough to keep going back and to go travel around various countries, and my friend wore her star in Prague. By the way, suchgreatheights, I think your assessment of the state of anti-semitism in Europe is overly optimistic and I base that on conversations I've had with European Jewish friends, especially from England.
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#75 Old 06-10-2010, 12:59 PM
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It's really not your place, Kellye and suchgreatheights, to tell me how I should feel.



I don't believe either of us told you how you should feel. We feel that unfounded fear of persecution is an insufficient justification for Jews to avoid a return to Europe over half a century later, since their displacement in Israel is in turn displacing that region's original inhabitants, and causing extreme amounts of death, suffering, and religious tension in the area.
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#76 Old 06-10-2010, 01:02 PM
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Also, in America, you'll find the symbol on a lot of older stuff, due to both its pre-Nazi European usage, and American Indian usage.



I think you are mistaken, the swastika is based on a Hindu symbol from the Indian subcontinent, not Native American "Indians".



The swastika was a popular symbol of the surf culture in California until WWII, but persisted up until the 60's or 70's as I recall.



As for the thread topic, frankly I can't make any sense out of what Thomas says after, "They're occupied, you know, it's their land." My mother is about the same age and has Alzheimer's and frequently thinks it's the 1940's. She'll ask my dad to take her home to her parents when he comes to visit, for example. Watching that clip reminded me of that, she was talking as if it's 1948.
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#77 Old 06-10-2010, 01:04 PM
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It's really not your place, Kellye and suchgreatheights, to tell me how I should feel.



I didn't tell you how you should feel, I didn't mention you, I said that suggesting that Israelis (are you even Israeli?) legitimately fear living in Europe is ridiculous. It is. The level of anti-Israeli sentiment is much greater, for instance, in occupied Palestine than anywhere in Europe, but that doesn't stop many Israelis from living in settler communities on Palestinian land - to say that they are doing it because they are scared of Europe makes no sense.



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It's not that I don't feel safe in Europe, I do, it was just recommended to me not to wear my star in Spain or Russia in particular and I chose to carry that over to other countries.



Lots of Zionists will "recommend" you not wear a Star of David necklace so you can feel like an eternal victim, always afraid of persecution - which in turn, provides the ideological justification for the state of Israel. Even lots of non-Zionist or anti-Zionist people who have bought into this may say the same.



But this doesn't mean it has any basis in reality. Wear what you want, or don't, but don't pretend there is even an infinitesimally small chance that there could be another holocaust - because there isn't. Nazism is dead, anti-semetism is no longer a political force, despite some Zionists insistence on referring to anti-Zionism as "anti-Semitism"





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I loved my trips to Europe and I obviously felt safe enough to keep going back and to go travel around various countries, and my friend wore her star in Prague.

Then my assessment was correct, even for you, so why are you disputing it?



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By the way, suchgreatheights, I think your assessment of the state of anti-semitism in Europe is overly optimistic and I base that on conversations I've had with European Jewish friends, especially from England.



Well, I don't know your friends, or what kind of personal experiences (or alternatively paranoia or politics) they might have, but I am Jewish and I lived in England for three and a half years and I never saw or heard anything anti-semitic, though I heard a lot of anti-Muslim sentiment. I can't recall any of my Jewish friends (who are progressive and anti-Zionist, obviously, or I wouldn't be friends with them) including the religious ones ever complaining of anti-Semitism.



The only time I remember anyone complain of anti-Semitism was the radically right-wing head of my university's Jewish Society, who was essentially upset that Muslim students were organizing against the Israeli government, but couldn't come up with anything that I thought was anti-Semitic as opposed to anti-Zionist.



In the UK in particular, there is an incredibly scary (but politically marginal) neo-Fascist movement, the British National Party and the English Defense League, but their racist fixations are not directed at Jews (as past generations of Fascists were) but at non-White people, immigrants and Muslims.



Admittedly, there is a lot of "anti-Semitism" in Europe if you want to reject the historical meaning of the word and equate it with any sentiment against Israel, as many people do, but that is just rhetoric, not reality.
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#78 Old 06-10-2010, 01:07 PM
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I don't believe either of us told you how you should feel. We feel that unfounded fear of persecution is an insufficient justification for Jews to avoid a return to Europe over half a century later, since their displacement in Israel is in turn displacing that region's original inhabitants, and causing extreme amounts of death, suffering, and religious tension in the area.



I was responding to something completely different, simply the statement that in any context it is still not such a great thing to be Jewish in Europe. Of course experiences can run the whole spectrum, I was just responding to that one statement I think it was by mlp but I'm not positive. However, I don't think it is fear of persecution that makes Israelis not want to leave their country for Europe but I also think you guys keep missing the point that not all Israelis have roots in Europe. As for Helen Thomas the point that people are upset about is not that Poland is currently the site of mass genocide against Jews but that it has been. Anyway, Israelis shoudln't need a justification for not wanting to return to Europe since the whole idea is a complete non-issue and really doesn't make any sense.
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#79 Old 06-10-2010, 01:07 PM
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I think you are mistaken, the swastika is based on a Hindu symbol from the Indian subcontinent, not Native American "Indians".



Das is right, the swastika was also used by Native Americas of the Mississippi River Valley and the Southwest United States. Two groups of Native Americans that used the swastika are the Navajo and the Hopi.
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#80 Old 06-10-2010, 01:14 PM
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Lots of Zionists will "recommend" you not wear a Star of David necklace so you can feel like an eternal victim, always afraid of persecution - which in turn, provides the ideological justification for the state of Israel. Even lots of non-Zionist or anti-Zionist people who have bought into this may say the same.



It was non-Jewish high school teachers, and non-Jewish program directors who made the recommendation, calm down. And it has nothing to do with a fear of another holocaust, just the same as I don't walk through central park alone in the middle of the night to be as safe as possible, not because I'm afraid all women everywhere will be systematically raped and murdered.



I'm glad your friends had such a positive experience, as I said, there's experiences at all ends of the spectrum but my (some liberal, most progressive, all zionist) friends that I'm referring to were not always so lucky. That's great that your school had a Jewish Students group, an English friend of mine said the one at his school had been banned as racist.
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#81 Old 06-10-2010, 01:16 PM
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However, I don't think it is fear of persecution that makes Israelis not want to leave their country for Europe but I also think you guys keep missing the point that not all Israelis have roots in Europe.



It's not their country.



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As for Helen Thomas the point that people are upset about is not that Poland is currently the site of mass genocide against Jews but that it has been.



That makes as much sense as me avoiding Ireland (as an Irish-American) because there was a potato famine there once that led my ancestors to emigrate to this country.
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#82 Old 06-10-2010, 01:20 PM
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It's not their country.

yes it is.



We could spend years and years going back and forth on this, just doesn't seem worth it though as neither of us are going to change our opinion any time soon.



comparing a potato famine to a man made genocide doesn't make any sense.
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#83 Old 06-10-2010, 01:22 PM
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comparing a potato famine to a man made genocide doesn't make any sense.



Fear of past historical conflicts doesn't make any sense either, since, as historical situations, they no longer exist.
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#84 Old 06-10-2010, 01:24 PM
 
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Not "feeling safe" in Europe today is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard, Europe is the safest place in the world and Nazism has been thoroughly and absolutely stamped out into oblivion - antisemitism into irrelevance except as the form of prejudice most hated by the establishment on both the left and the right. The notion that Israelis have any contemporary legitimate fear of persecution in Europe is crazy and utterly unfounded.

And you're basing this on what, exactly?



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I don't believe either of us told you how you should feel.

Yeah...feel however you want, but it's ridiculous, crazy and utterly unfounded. *gigglesnort*

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#85 Old 06-10-2010, 01:25 PM
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Yeah...feel however you want, but it's ridiculous, crazy and utterly unfounded. *gigglesnort*



Nobody ever said feelings were rational.
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#86 Old 06-10-2010, 01:27 PM
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Fear of past historical conflicts doesn't make any sense either, since, as historical situations, they no longer exist.

Maybe, I think it depends on the situation. Anti semitism and violence against Jews existed for centuries and, though significantly less, still does exist. However, I still think this is not really the point and I'm not sure why we're discussing it as nobody is actually considering a nationwide exodus from Israel to Europe. Maybe something got confused over the course of this thread? It just seems like we're going in circles and maybe not even the same circles lol.
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#87 Old 06-10-2010, 01:30 PM
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However, I still think this is not really the point and I'm not sure why we're discussing it as nobody is actually considering a nationwide exodus from Israel to Europe. Maybe something got confused over the course of this thread? It just seems like we're going in circles and maybe not even the same circles lol.



The point is that Helen Thomas was justified in telling Jews to get out of Palestine (IMO). That's the whole subject of the thread, whether or not she is bat**** crazy, senile, or actually just gutsy enough to say what most people are afraid to say in a world where you can't criticize Israel at all without accused of being an anti-Semite.



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Kellye, why don't you go back to wherever your ancestors came from so this land can be returned to the Native Americans? They're living in an occupied country too. Seriously. What prevents you?



If I had the money, I would have returned already. *shrug* Nobody chooses their birthland, unfortunately. But if there was a movement for European-Americans to return to Europe and leave the United States to the Native Americans, I still wouldn't have to leave because I'm part Native American. I doubt the Palestinians and Israelis have as much of an interbreeding issue.



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I also think that you're very unclear about the history of Palestine, that this is an ancient conflict, and maybe this will help

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Israel



I'm aware it's an ancient conflict, that certainly doesn't justify oppression and destruction today. To me that's like saying, "People have always eaten meat, so why complain about them eating meat now?"



ETA: Anyone who would like to send me a plane ticket to Ireland and several thousand dollars in start-up money, please PM me and I will happily return to my ancestral lands.
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#88 Old 06-10-2010, 02:22 PM
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I think you are mistaken, the swastika is based on a Hindu symbol from the Indian subcontinent, not Native American "Indians".



The swastika is a simple symbol and was probably invented in several different areas at different times.



That's why it shows up in preColumbian American Indian cultures, in Asia, in Europe, and probably in Africa, for all I know.



According to wikipedia, swastikas showed up in Europe and Asia around seven to eight thousand years ago.



To state that the Swastika came from the Indian Subcontinent is like saying that the cross symbol must have came from Palestine.
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#89 Old 06-10-2010, 03:12 PM
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It makes me incredibly depressed to see people advocating that Jewish Israelis should return to the land of their ancestors (however that might even be determined), and for that to be considered an acceptable viewpoint.
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#90 Old 06-10-2010, 03:20 PM
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It makes me incredibly depressed to see people advocating that Jewish Israelis should return to the land of their ancestors (however that might even be determined), and for that to be considered an acceptable viewpoint.

This.



Thank you for articulating exactly what I've been failing to express. Phew, emotions make it so much harder to speak as clearly as I'd like.
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